Is our sport really full of morons!!!!

OddysAirsoft

Ok....here comes a rant.....today I played at Hellfire in Bray. A site I like.

Around 50 guys turned up which was mint. 2 teams were picked, 25 on each (red and blue team)
Now the blues were 80% made up of a team whose name I won't mention.
Games started and a good day looked to be on the cards. Except a huge percentage of the blue team chose not to call their hits...I mean any of them. In fairness to the reds they played with honour, but became so despondent with what was going on walked off the field mid battle (the whole 25 players) and took an early lunch. At least 15 of those players packed up and went home, rather than play the rest of the day with this supposed team! I and others stayed and fought on but in hindsight should have left too cause it got no better!!! I personally emptied at least 20 rounds into one blue team player who not only did not take them as hits even when the bb's were bouncing off his head but then turned and hit me which I duly took as a hit!!!

My point. There seems to be an ethos out there that just because you're in a 'Team' and have all the Gucci, that lesser mortals couldn't be good enough to hit you and that you should be the only winner.
It sucks! And not only does it suck but it will ruin airsoft in this country period which is bad for all. I brought a newbie today and lent him a gun and bits and after initially loving it, became so fed up with the cheating I doubt he will be back. Shame really.

What makes me even more annoyed is that one guy on our team recognised players from the other team and commented that they were known for not taking their hits. LOL!

Here endeth my rant.

PS. This is not a flaming thread where everyone will want to have a go at me or others....It was just to get it off my chest!!!

MacAonghusa

it's the responsibility of sites to provide sufficient marshals to monitor and control games and the responsibilty of marshals to enforce the site rules. If the marshals aren't enforcing the rules this needs to be raised with the site owners/game organisers and appropriate action taken.

OddysAirsoft

Whilst I couldn't agree more, my problem is with the players. If I get hit or even think I have been hit I call it. This is an honour game after all. Whats the point of cheating, does it make you better....nope!!!

Players have to call their hits. If there are individuals not taking theirs then yes marshals can step in and sort it but when 70% of a team are doing it...lol...time to pack up and take up knitting!!!!

Brabazone

Exactly, but its also a game of honour. Anyone that plays knows this and they subscribe to the rules when they sign up to play. I think it a pity we don't have a national monitoring for players as it would stop all this kind of crap going on.

Decoy

Agree with you on the marshalling aspect of this one MacAonghusa but as I wasn't there I can't comment on it. However, one of the reasons I got into airsofting was that it is meant to be an 'honour' game, we've all seen individuals refuse to take hits but if it is endemic across a team that's another matter entirely.

Is there a case for naming & shaming the team??

zero86r

Were the marshals informed? If so and nothing was done then personally i'd never return to the site. No point in playing games like that, the only issue i have with airsoft is the amount of cheating

Tigger

MacAonghusa wrote: »

it's the responsibility of sites to provide sufficient marshals to monitor and control games and the responsibilty of marshals to enforce the site rules. If the marshals aren't enforcing the rules this needs to be raised with the site owners/game organisers.

mac if thats what your coming out with then you've never seen it

it is the responsability of the player to take his hits, this is an honour sport

personally i'd love to see a name and shame thread (i know its not do-able)

i have seen video of a team i was playing against with bbs bouncing off them and not taking thier hits

i have personally pumped 20 bbs into players and watced them dive and return fire , a' i've felt the frustration of having to take the hits from that fire

but people will learn, as the op says teams and players thyat are notorious for non hit taking are known by the community and eventually they'll be ostricised

its been explained to me that they are simply too good to take hits from lesser mortals and so they don't







i

Tigger

zero86r wrote: »

Were the marshals informed? If so and nothing was done then personally i'd never return to the site. No point in playing games like that, the only issue i have with airsoft is the amount of cheating

marshals can't be everywhere all the time players have to be resposable

Shiva

The only truly effective way I can think of to erdicate this is to ban people from sites, and to be honest, I cant see that happening. Especially if its wholesale cheating - it'd be very hard to turn away a substantial amount of revenue like that.

Having said that, I remember a conversation I had with a site owner last year, where he came up with a possible solution...

When a player was caught cheating, there was a firing squad....on the cheaters signed waiver. The waiver would be taped to a pole, and ripped up with a few thousand rounds by the other players. The cheater is then asked does he want to sign a new waiver, and abide by the rules, or leave, never to come back. I'd imagine it'd be pretty humiliating.

MacAonghusa

i agree it's an honour system but people are competitive and don't like to lose. If someone is caught not calling their hits and is forced to sit out the rest of the day's games it night make others think twice about doing the same. There are ways of reminding players about the honour aspect of the sport.

Stone.cold

I really cant believe that this is still so common after all this time, how can u enjoy this game if you have bb's hoping off you and you just ignore it, what i would really like for once is someone to come and defend non hit taking, cause everytime this topic comes up everyone that posts take their hits so lets here from the ones that dont,

Today i seen probally the best example of honesty in a player a guy was kneeling beside a tree, i was behind him i noticed a piece of a branch fall down from above him and hit him on the shoulder as it hit him his hand went up and he called hit, i had to tell him it wasnt a bb, the gas thing is its that simple he didnt win any prices for it but it restored my faith in airsofters

zero86r

I'm well aware marshals can't be everywhere tigger but when almost an entire team is refusing to take hits they should really watch whats going on especially if informed of the situation.

Decoy

Interesting notion T, but I would prefer to see the firing squad on the cheaters, not their waivers. It could work with individuals but not when entire teams are involved in the practice.

Shiva

Cyprinus Carpio wrote: »

Interesting notion T, but I would prefer to see the firing squad on the cheaters, not their waivers. It could work with individuals but not when entire teams are involved in the practice.

Ohhhh, dont go there. Thats frowned upon

zero86r

Firing squads shooting a player is a really really bad idea, as has been proven in the past

MacAonghusa

Tigger wrote: »

mac if thats what your coming out with then you've never seen it

I have seen it Tig. There will always be people who will try to cheat so i don't think you can rely on honour alone, you also have to have the necessary controls in place, imo.

Private Snafu

Shiva wrote: »

...When a player was caught cheating, there was a firing squad....on the cheaters signed waiver. The waiver would be taped to a pole, and ripped up with a few thousand rounds by the other players. The cheater is then asked does he want to sign a new waiver, and abide by the rules, or leave, never to come back. I'd imagine it'd be pretty humiliating.

Great idea IMO... would really help root out some players, and help alert more of the community to them.

Decoy

So that's frowned upon yet entire teams are allowed to make a mockery of our sport, ruining everyone else's day in the process, and are let away with it?!? Name & shame I say and ban them from all sites. If we had a register of airsofters this would be relatively easy to do (did I really say that?)

And technically if they're not taking hits anyway then the entire firing squad would also miss them with every BB fired :rolleyes:

Chuck the Buck

Shiva wrote: »

The only truly effective way I can think of to erdicate this is to ban people from sites, and to be honest, I cant see that happening. Especially if its wholesale cheating - it'd be very hard to turn away a substantial amount of revenue like that.

This is the major problem with cheating in airsoft. As we all know its a honour based game but if enough of the players (or the sites regulars) cheat the site will do nothing to stop them because they they'll go out of business. The funny thing is that if they don't put a stop to rampant cheating that sometimes happens they'll loose all their customers and go out of business.

Ultimately I believe that its the job of the site to deal with the cheaters, and if they won't then you as a player should never give them your business again, EVER.

gerrowadat

It's amazing the links between the last few threads in the main forum.

As we know, there are 'too many' sites for the number of players out there.

So, vote with your feet. Let the site owners and marshals know what's going on. If they're doing nothing about it, then it's their loss. Go where the good honest games are.

I remember one site that was 'inhabited' by a team known to be aggressive cheaters. That site is now gone. If a team gets a name for themselves like that, then the site they haunt won't have any players that want to play there.

It works both ways, y'see. If a site owner has 25 players he doesn't want to ban because he likes their money, then that's a false economy. If nobody else wants to play on the site, then it becomes unviable and closes. Simple as.

Tigger

Cyprinus Carpio wrote: »

So that's frowned upon yet entire teams are allowed to make a mockery of our sport, ruining everyone else's day in the process, and are let away with it?!? Name & shame I say and ban them from all sites. If we had a register of airsofters this would be relatively easy to do (did I really say that?)

And technically if they're not taking hits anyway then the entire firing squad would also miss them with every BB fired :rolleyes:

proof would be needed might as well fire some sorta marking ball fliied with paint or something so they have no choice :pac:

Brabazone

Name and shame I say. If you don't they will only be back next week doing the exact same thing and ruining your fun again.

se conman

Pure economics , there is no way that a commercial site can ban 20 players (80% of 25) and risk souring a whole team but there is no reason that they cannot pull 1 or 2 of the offending players and do as Shiva said , humilate them.This would only have to happen a couple of times and players would get the message.What Shiva posted was the best idea I have ever heard.

Puding

this debate has been had again and again

ok this is a game of honour, there for it is down to the mental attitude of the players involved, to how they play, at some point you have to look at where your playing and the type of people your laying with if this happens again and again

why do people cheat? what is there need to cheat, manly because they want to win and be the best, the competitive edge takes over, and unfortunately these things really do not go well together with a game of honour

sites so not want to ban massive amounts of people due to financial concerns, this is true, but also worrying for the sport for its long term development, but that is the sites choice there are other sites out there with differant approces and views to this issue, i advice finding sites that take a harder line,

sites may not want to ban large numbers of people but there equally likely to loss just as many people who do not want to play this type of game if this does happen the only thing for players who do not like this style of play and atmosphere is to move themselves, to find like minded people

i could go on and on, i think that anyone who has read my posts in the past knows why views on this topic, im not in the frame of mind to go over and over old ground again

zero86r

Someone needs to invent a hit detection device for airsoft. Hmmm where's macgyver when you need him...

Puding

during debates like this, the topic normaly goes to what can be done to confirm when a hit has happened instead of addressing why people do not acknowledge hits

if you want to make shore players are hit with types of tech like paint bb and crap like that you might as well change sports, airsoft is a game of honour and this only works if the people playing have the right mind sets and expectations and goals, this should never be forgotten

Take aim mag

I think it's too easy to say that competitive airsoft means players will cheat. Last week I took part in a very competitive game at Red Barn. A three way game that lasted four hours or so and I saw no cheating, and didn't hear any rumbling when the game was finished. It was very honourable.
I've stormed off sites before because of idiots not taking their hits, it really can spoil a day out. Sites need to get tough with cheaters.
I know banning cheaters can mean a loss in revenue but site owners should look at it long term, a site with a rep for being home to cheaters will eventually close down because no honest player will play there regularly.

Stone.cold

If a site was to take a stand against cheats i.e ban them from the site word will get around that this site does not tolerate cheating honest players will come to this site to play (i know i would) therefore the sites finances may benifit from taking a stand

Puding

I think it's too easy to say that competitive airsoft means players will cheat

agree it can be easy and rather reactionary but there is truth there if you look at it with a clear head yes i can give you examples of competitive games that have been above honourable but competition and by extension the fps shooter/deathmatch influence that has swelled the ranks of airsoft has massively increases the instances of cheating in my experience because frankly in airsoft it is so easy to get away with it

I know banning cheaters can mean a loss in revenue but site owners should look at it long term, a site with a rep for being home to cheaters will eventually close down because no honest player will play there regularly.

as i said im previous post you have to look at it from the other side, yes loss money from banning cheaters, but on the other hand loss money from negative publicity and players to coming due to the cheating

Sperminator

if a player from a team is caught cheating then sent him and another player off, if it happens again sent 3 off. eventully they should get the message. but as was said, marshals can't see everything so sometime you've got to speak up.

k99_64

What pisses me off are the players who shoot people who have already been hit and are walking away with their hands raised 'for the laugh'

Brabazone

Sperminator wrote: »

if a player from a team is caught cheating then sent him and another player off, if it happens again sent 3 off. eventully they should get the message. but as was said, marshals can't see everything so sometime you've got to speak up.

I like that idea. If there ruining it for there team mates then they might think twice about not taking their hits.

J.D.R

This might get me ridiculed and sent off to a different thread, or section of Boards, but why don;t we shot paint pellets. Not the Paint ball type, but fill the pellets with paint, so that only a dot of paint appears. Like paintball, without the marks the next day (ie, bruises). Its very hard to deny a hit when you have the markings to prove it

Stone.cold

Those players should be dealt with the same way as a cheater, if a player clearly has his hand in the air and is walking out of a gaming zone there is no excuse for firing at him

Brabazone

J.D.R wrote: »

This might get me ridiculed and sent off to a different thread, or section of Boards, but why don;t we shot paint pellets. Not the Paint ball type, but fill the pellets with paint, so that only a dot of paint appears. Like paintball, without the marks the next day (ie, bruises). Its very hard to deny a hit when you have the markings to prove it

because its airsoft not paitball:D

zero86r

6mm bbs are bastards for jamming, got em once when airsoft became legal never again. Also the gucci heads might cry if you get paint on their overpriced gear... :rolleyes:

Shiva

J.D.R wrote: »

This might get me ridiculed and sent off to a different thread, or section of Boards, but why don;t we shot paint pellets. Not the Paint ball type, but fill the pellets with paint, so that only a dot of paint appears. Like paintball, without the marks the next day (ie, bruises). Its very hard to deny a hit when you have the markings to prove it

Those paint-BBs are known to cause serious problems with guns, by bursting in the barrel.

Similarly, I've seen those Blammo kill marker things leave a residue in the barrel.

Tigger

J.D.R wrote: »

This might get me ridiculed and sent off to a different thread, or section of Boards, but why don;t we shot paint pellets. Not the Paint ball type, but fill the pellets with paint, so that only a dot of paint appears. Like paintball, without the marks the next day (ie, bruises). Its very hard to deny a hit when you have the markings to prove it

we could tie ballons to the players....

Decoy

I wasn't there so I'm not in a position to comment but I'm wondering if the commander/captain of the team involved would be brave enough to come on here and refute the claims or defend the actions of his team?

zero86r

Paint bbs i meant to say, cant edit post, on the mobile phone viewing boards right now

Tigger

Cyprinus Carpio wrote: »

I wasn't there so I'm not in a position to comment but I'm wondering if the commander/captain of the team involved would be brave enough to come on here and refute the claims or defend the actions of his team?

lol

Take aim mag

the main problem is actually CATCHING a player cheating. it's very difficult for four or five marshals to keep tabs on a group of 30 players. Forget about introducing technology to stamp out this problem. Professional soccer cant even manage to do that, even with millions and millions of euro flying around.
It's a serious problem for all Irish softers. It drives players, marshals and site owners nuts. And there's another thread active at the moment about the sport becoming less popular in Ireland. Some are saying its the time of year, or the recession or too many sites, but I think the cheating is playing a part in this. It's so frustrating when you've been looking forward to the weekend, getting all your kit ready, meeting up with your mates, the anticipation, then you get out and a percentage of players arent taking their hits. It makes you just want to walk out. and i think it is turning people away from airsoft.
Airsoft clubs could be the way to go. private clubs run by groups of players and you only get to play there by invite. if you cheat you wont be invited again. It's becoming very popular in America. (and i know there are a few in this country) But again, it would be hard to develope a site without proper revenue.
hmmm. no easy solutions to this.

Sperminator

Brabazone wrote: »

I like that idea. If there ruining it for there team mates then they might think twice about not taking their hits.

belive it or not this is a rule in Internation paintball rules, if it works for them, them it could work for us.
yet player how continue to shoot if you clearly have your hand up should be treated the same why as non hit takers

zero86r

I like the idea of a club, or even a club night/day once a week or whatever, any messing about results in a ban from the group

Tigger

Sperminator wrote: »

belive it or not this is a rule in Internation paintball rules, if it works for them, them it could work for us.
yet player how continue to shoot if you clearly have your hand up should be treated the same why as non hit takers

i like the idea but the execution would be horrible

in a real team v real team game its one thing but if its thrown together vteamns it coumdn't work

Stone.cold

Take aim mag wrote: »

Airsoft clubs could be the way to go.

In one year of operation we have only had one accusation of a player not taking his hit, we have very strict rules and if a player is proven to be ignoring hits he will not be invited back to the site, simple as.

we had a game today 24 players & a game regulater that was it, not even a question of hit taking or not we have had 45 -50 players at a game same result.

Brabazone

Sperminator wrote: »

belive it or not this is a rule in Internation paintball rules, if it works for them, them it could work for us.
yet player how continue to shoot if you clearly have your hand up should be treated the same why as non hit takers

I'm starting a site up in the coming months and I think this is something that I might put in the rules of the site. Seems like a simple solution to a common problem.

Puding

the main problem is actually CATCHING a player cheating.

why does it always have to be the issue of catching them thought, from that point of view we accept cheating as factor and the focus is on marshels to catch it

for me i would want to remove the need and motive to cheat, airsoft is a game of honour, cheating is fundamentally breaking the game at its heart, people attitudes need to be changed to remove the need to cheat, but that is jusy my 2 cents

again this had all been said and before and is destined to be repeated in the future, will things change? key i down to the players yourselves tbh

Sperminator

Tigger wrote: »

i like the idea but the execution would be horrible

in a real team v real team game its one thing but if its thrown together vteamns it coumdn't work

ah well it was worth a try, but as you said it should be used in real team games.

Take aim mag

Perhaps we (Irish based airsofters) could make a donation to the IAA once a month and they could secure a large piece of land for us that is only open once a month for a 24 hour milsim?? no cheaters need apply.
any player caught cheating is black listed from future games.
Just thinking out loud.

Sperminator

Brabazone wrote: »

I'm starting a site up in the coming months and I think this is something that I might put in the rules of the site. Seems like a simple solution to a common problem.

see as i gave you the idea do i get a free game LOL