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N2 - Slane Bypass [planning granted]
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Slane Resident wrote: »no, Monument, I'm just tired of listening to people misrepresent the situation. You said the HGV ban wasn't considered. I showed it was.
I posted this a few posts back, nothing you have said changes it:
The inspector said "why a HGV ban was not considered" -- you should note that when ABP says considered, they mean fully considering. Not the half arsed attempts which were attempted.
It is not me who has misrepresent the situation, it is the people who have chained that a HGV ban is impossable before they fully look at the situation.Slane Resident wrote: »I note you're spouting Save Newgrange's party line, by the way - "if you really care about safety".
No, try sling mud all you like, but unlike them I am not against the idea of a bypass of any kind. As already said I would share the inspector's fear that the NRA were up to over engineering again -- or as he put it, they did not look in detail at lower spec bypass options.Slane Resident wrote: »Do you have any idea how insulting that is to the people who live in Slane, who have to drive on one of the most dangerous roads in the country on a daily basis, whose kids' school is actually on the N2? If there were a quick-fix solution to this we'd have jumped at it years ago. I marched for a solution (not a bypass, just a solution) ten years ago when David Garcey was killed. I'll take anything - ....
A HGV ban is not a quick-fix solution. It takes time to look at it correctly, defend it against oppsition and roll in out. But would be a lot quicker than waiting for a bypass.
And if needed, it's quite possible extra traffic calming could also be put in place to slow traffic down cars and smaller trucks.Slane Resident wrote: »nobut I will not be responsible for an action which transfers the risk to another place.
The opponents to the bypass, who misrepresented the facts, and the ABP members, may be able to live with their consciences if they turn on the news and hear of another death. If we push for a HGV ban that we know will move the lorries onto unsuitable rural roads, and I hear of a death in Stackallen, I wouldn't be able to live with that.
I suppose that's the difference between us.
Thanks, but I've seen enough dead or nearly dead people crushed on the side of the road to last a lifetime, so I'd perfer if you would kindly stop accusing me of wanting more death and injoury on the roads.
As the inspector says, looking at a ban for the bridge at Slane cannot be done in isolation. A ban would also have to include unsuitable routes.To_be_confirmed wrote: »The only realistically safe route for traffic to go to Ardee and beyond without having to pay the toll will be through the main R132 route over the bridge of peace in Drogheda. Or perhaps through Navan, but then use the rather poor roads between the N2 and N3. Which leads me to the Stackallen bridge. I propose anyone discussing this as an alternative to look at the google maps images of the roads in the area before seriously suggesting it. And the bridge at Oldbridge is not even theoretically possible for use for HGVs between the 3 tonne weight restriction on the bridge and how the canal bridge a little further up that road would need to be entirely rebuilt also before larger trucks could even turn on it. And the road infrastructure between Oldbridge and Drogheda on the southern side would also need significant work and widening in various cases, either to bring it to the Donore road or to bring it to the Rathmullen road.
IF you think safety is really that big of an issue, get HGVs to use the M1 and M3 (by what ever means -- change of law if you somehow that that's needed, exclusions from paying the toll or whatever) and then ban any unsuitable river crossing with HGVs between them.
IF you think safety is not an issue, that's fine, you can wait for how many years a bypass takes.To_be_confirmed wrote: »Now those situations are all dependent on there being an EU-level decision ensuring some provision of an alternative route for roads. And what counts as an alternative route or not (i.e. how far out if the way it is).
Please do point to this -- it if was an EU-level decision, it'll be on the EU's website.To_be_confirmed wrote: »The inspector's report words the issue in quite a particular way. He explored it from the angle of whether a HGV ban would work or not and appeared to exhaust this issue before putting it to the board. But ABP will have an awkward situation if a detailed traffic study does take place and demonstrates exactly what residents in general have claimed. That there is a somewhat significant level of HGV traffic going through Slane.
Let's get this right the inspector exhausted at the same time as calling for a traffic study?
To_be_confirmed wrote: »Also, I cannot fathom why Monument claimed that a HGV ban was not considered in the planning application. The letter from Meath Co. Co.'s director of infrastructure shows it was at least considered and subsequently dismissed. Even if a survey wasn't conducted. And no one needs an origin/destination survey to see that Roadstone's traffic will in all likelihood need to pass through Slane.
Because those are the the ABP's inspector's words, even if he means not fully considered, he said not considered, that's the way ABP talk. They don't like mucking about with half looking at something and then taking it as a given.0 -
Slane Resident wrote: »Nice dismissal of all the preceding quotes, Monument - "they don't suit my case so I'll ignore".
Quotes from the Inspector's report are worthless. The board has discretion to do what it wants - and according even to the NRA, the board has ruled out a bypass entirely. So, if even they admit defeat, why are you ignoring that key fact here?Slane Resident wrote: »You have to remember that in what I believe to be a unique situation the hearing had two Senior Counsel, one an ex-Attorney General, opposing the bypass. they were watching for anything they saw as insufficient and the question of a High Court appeal had already been raised... Pity the Slane people couldn't have afforded their own Senior Counsel but as always in this country, money talks.
Yes, pork barrel money does talk - and stink!
(Brian Cown being 'entertained' at the Village Inn, Slane, hosted by local councillor, Wayne Harding (FF) just before the NRA decided to change its mind and proceed with the bypass)
Jesus, you are good at playing the victim, I will give you that. The (golden circle of FF) people of Slane had the Taoiseach roll into town, gave him a few pints in the village inn, and then all of a sudden the NRA decided to publish an EIA for the bypass, even though they had just gotten finished writing to the Council and telling them that they had no money for it - and were in the process of preparing to implement the HGV ban.
The NRA wasted tens of millions of public money putting in this faulty EIA. They paid top dollar for the 'best' engineers, archaeologists, and a veritable hoard of other consultants - not to mention the cost of An Board Pleanala having to put a small army to work on this too. The Council hired Dermot Flanaghan SC, and other lawyers to argue their case - while the publc had no resources to fight this. Nearly every single sumission by the public was done without representation of any kind.
Public money should now be spent holding an inquiry into what really went on between the NRA, the Council, the Taoiseach, and local Fianna Failers like Harding, and Thomas Byrne.0 -
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Nope, just bored. Been there, done this, regularly. You need to start singing a different tune, it's extremely boring. :rolleyes:
Photo taken outside the building where Biffo attended a meeting, as per Tuathal's photo. Note the unanimous outpouring of support for our Dear and Glorious Leader from the Fianna Fail Bypass Slane Committee.
No? Me neither.0 -
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Sorry, but you are grossly misinformed on this one. The NRA, in the EIS, called the UNESCO World Heritage Site "Newgrange/Bru na Boinne." The name refers to the entire site,, not the single tomb.
The bypass was to run within 500m of the boundary. That is why this has been refused by An Bord Pleanala - like it or not...
You see, this is the crux of the whole thing.
The bypass is 3.5 km away from Newgrange.
Yet Tuathal will still get engaged in semantics like this to pretend Newgrange is in danger, when An Bord Pleanala's own report stated that the new road would not be audible or visible from Newgrange. So I'll leave forum users to draw their own conclusions on that.
While we're at it, Tuathal:The proposed bypass will intrude upon the World Heritage Site, directly. It will be visible, audible, and entail demolishing a number of archaeological sites that are related to Newgrange. In addition, it will detract greatly from the amenity value of the site and its setting, which is also protected in law. It will sever the World Heritage Site from the village. ...
You said that the bypass was going to be part of a Dublin-Derry motorway, a “motorway by stealth”, you called it. The inspector’s report stated that:
“The first point to be noted is that the construction of the bypass to motorway standard is no longer under consideration. That would have made sense in the event of the Ashbourne to Ardee section of the N2 being upgraded as part of a comprehensive M2/N2 route. The construction of the Slane Bypass to motorway standards would not therefore make sense as a stand-alone project”.
"A proposal for a motorway scheme from Ashbourne to Ardee was mooted some years ago and this led in 2008 to a proposal to design the Slane bypass to facilitate a motorway upgrade. The current proposal is for a road of a distinctly lower standard, which could not readily be converted to a motorway without significant modifications”.
“A point of particular relevance is the incorporation into the current scheme of three at-grade junctions, which would not be acceptable on a road of motorway standard. The current position, on the basis of information made available at the hearing, is that the Ashbourne to Ardee link has been stood down and that no further work is being done on it”.
You’ve been told that over and over by people who know a lot more about road construction than either of us, but you were dogmatic in your insistence that Slane was not a stand-alone project. Whoops.
You stated, even after the balloon test, that the road would be visible from Newgrange, neglecting to mention that it is only visible if you stand on top of the monument, which is obviously not allowed. Here's a photograph of the balloon test taken from the top of Newgrange, an area not accessible to the public.
Play "spot the balloon".
Here's the balloon test from Knowth. The arrows mark where the balloons are. I've made it easy for you.
You stated it would be audible from Newgrange. The Inspector’s report says otherwise.
You stated it was a cross-border project. The Inspector’s report says it’s not.
You stated this:
Quote: Originally Posted by tuathal [/FONT][URL="http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68678131#post68678131"[/URL]
The proposed bypass will intrude upon the World Heritage Site, directly. It will be visible, audible, and entail demolishing a number of archaeological sites that are related to Newgrange.
I asked you which sites were being demolished, you declined to answer.
However, the Inspector’s report does mention the sites within 500 metres of the road, 44 of them, 34 of which would not be affected at all (which bypass supporters continually post, yet Tuathal keeps rabbitting on about the "44 sites" implying they're all going to be concreted over). The majority of the eight which will be impacted are of no significance, some are only "potential" sites. The Inspector was satisfied in this regard. Two of them were fields where lithics and flints were found. Not exactly passage tombs. Most of the impact will be slight.
“The direct impacts would affect a gate and gate lodge at Janeville, which I consider to be of very limited architectural interest. Many of the indirect impacts would be relatively minor and the structures in question are of limited interest”.
Here's the gate:
The remaining area of major impact would be to a pillbox. Here it is:
I’m not even going to get into the whole “Newgrange is Bru na Boinne so if I say Newgrange is going to be built over, that’s okay because even if it’s a farmer’s field 3.5 kilometres away, that still counts” argument.
Oh, and my favourite - that you are instructed by the “real” people of Slane, who don’t want a bypass. Because obviously the people who are asking for a bypass are outside agitators who just come up in every time there’s talk of a road being built and climb trees and cause disruption to insist that the road goes ahead. Oh, maybe I’m mixing that up.
I also notice that anybody who disagrees with you, including MYOB in the earlier pages of this thread, is a Fianna Fail stooge, and I note you were already warned about that by moderatorsQuote (about MYOB):
Originally Posted by etchyed I trust virtually nothing this government tells me. But you can't assume somebody's a Fianna Fáil supporter/mouthpiece just because they support a road project you disagree with.
I can assume what I like when the person in question is spouting the same nonsense as Fianna Fail and the Government, as is the case hereThe only troll around here is you. A manager of a campaign against a road who won't show his cards but claims other people have "vested interests" or are "government mouthpieces" or members of Fianna Fail pretty much defines a troll.
Exactly.
Edited - in amending the font size I seem to have omitted pictures of the archaeological sites that will be impinged upon. Tuathal talks about 44, despite being told that 44 are in proximity to the road but 34 would not be affected at all. The main ones which will be affected are this:
and this:
I had a quote where the Inspector says they weren't of much significance but I lost it. I think it's self-evident anyway.0 -
Slane Resident wrote: »Nope, just bored. Been there, done this, regularly. You need to start singing a different tune, it's extremely boring. :rolleyes:
Photo taken outside the building where Biffo attended a meeting, as per Tuathal's photo. Note the unanimous outpouring of support for our Dear and Glorious Leader from the Fianna Fail Bypass Slane Committee.
No? Me neither.
Well, at least you got to have a nice pantomime for yourselves, while the real business was being done in the Village Inn pub.0 -
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Yes, you might notice the "real" residents of Slane in the Meath Chronicle this week protesting the bypass decision. Of course, we had to bus them in at great expense to the Cumann.
You're good for a laugh if nothing else Tuathal.
Going back to fix my appalling font size on my previous post.0 -
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Slane Resident wrote: »Yes, you might notice the "real" residents of Slane in the Meath Chronicle this week protesting the bypass decision. Of course, we had to bus them in at great expense to the Cumann.
You're good for a laugh if nothing else Tuathal.
Going back to fix my appalling font size on my previous post.
Of course the residents are pissed off. They put their faith in FF and then FG, and got let down badly. They allowed their village to be used as a toll-bypass, on the false promise of a bypass, and ended up opposing the HGV ban, which would have prevented the next life being lost.
Now they have nothing.
But I have to say, from a personal point of view, I have never met a nastier group of people in my life. Time and again people tried to reason with them, and offered to co-operate on finding a solution that met everyone's needs. Instead, nothing came back but personall abuse, false accusations and aggresive behaviour.
The people of Slane, belonging to that lynch mob, got what they deserve.0 -
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Of course the residents are pissed off. They put their faith in FF and then FG, and got let down badly. They allowed their village to be used as a toll-bypass, on the false promise of a bypass, and ended up opposing the HGV ban, which would have prevented the next life being lost.
Now they have nothing.
But I have to say, from a personal point of view, I have never met a nastier group of people in my life. Time and again people tried to reason with them, and offered to co-operate on finding a solution that met everyone's needs. Instead, nothing came back but personall abuse, false accusations and aggresive behaviour.
The people of Slane, belonging to that lynch mob, got what they deserve.
Firstly, you've done your usual and ignored my post above. When in doubt, change the subject and if you can attack someone else, even better.
Secondly, at least you can stop pretending to have any interest whatsoever in the "nasty group of people" in Slane.
Thirdly, I was reading over the beginning of this particular thread and I note someone, I think it was Spongebob, posted a link in which you admitted on another thread on this forum that you were a member of Save Newgrange. Funnily enough, there's a second link on this thread to another thread which deals with the personal attacks and censorship on the Save Newgrange Facebook site, something which was also dealt with in the newspapers.
"personall abuse, false accusations and aggresive behaviour" is right (except I'd have probably spelled a few words differently but hey, you're under stress) but not on the Slane peoples side.
You also seem to gloss over the fact that there are two distinct organisations in Slane working for the bypass. Once was set up after David Garvey's appalling death in 2001 and the other after this accident in 2009:
Are they all Fianna Fail stooges?
Oh, and in your post above you refer to Fianna Fail, then to Labour, then to Fine Gael. So what you're saying is that there's cross-party support for the bypass.
Hmmm.0 -
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