Procedure of De-Modding

~Rebel~

I realise the other thread has been closed, based on the decision that this particular matter is only between the Ex-Mod and the Admins and nobody else's business. With that in mind, I would just like to bring up the possibility of a reform of the method of de-modding, as I have to say this whole procedure has left a very bad taste in my mouth.

As users of the forum the incident occured in, should we not get some voice in the demodding of one of the best Mods and posters our forum has ever had?

And even if one wished to discount the unwashed masses like us, one should surely consult with his fellow mods of Soccer etc, to see if they were happy with how things have gone and if there could be a better resolution?

Reading through the correspondences I get the impression that a very unfair "Us Versus You" mentally built up very quickly between Lloyd and the Admins. The guy has put his heart and soul into Boards.ie and was dealt with in a horribly cold fashion.

What I always like about Boards.ie is the spirit of community which can be found in so many of its nooks and cranny's and tbh this decision and behaviour from the Admins leaves me with less respect for the entity that is Boards.ie as a result.


Never has this been more relevant;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM

mayordenis

Boards isn't a democracy, sadly.
The "right" way to do things isn't always a consideration.

lucky-colm

lol

in before lock:D



long live Lloyd

steoin

~Rebel~ wrote: »

IWith that in mind, I would just like to bring up the possibility of a reform of the method of de-modding

what about procedures for removing Admins?

Fratton Fred

mayordenis wrote: »

Boards isn't a democracy, sadly.
The "right" way to do things isn't always a consideration.

maybe not a democracy, but it is a community.

~Rebel~

mayordenis wrote: »

Boards isn't a democracy, sadly.
The "right" way to do things isn't always a consideration.

This is somewhat true, but in any organisation, particularly one devoted to the end users entertainment, surely ideas must be at least looked at with a view to taking on board if they prove to be sound.

All I'm suggesting here is that perhaps this could have been dealt with in a better way in future, and that possibly more could be done to resolve the current problem.

steoin wrote: »

what about procedures for Admins?

This is my point. There obviously are procedures in place. What I'm questioning is if they are the right procedures. Things evolve and improve in every aspect of life.

BuffyBot

Unfortuntely, that wouldn't really possible or logistically sound.

On the rare occasion that a moderator is removed, there is often many factors going on in the background, of which the general populace may not nessecarily be aware of. That's why a "democratic" voting system isn't a model that would work very well.

The "right" way to do things isn't always a consideration.

I'd reject that. There is no "right" way that pleases everyone in all situations. Someone, somewhere will always lose out when any desicion is made, alas.

steoin

BuffyBot wrote: »

I'd reject that. There is no "right" way

But there is certainly a wrong way

~Rebel~

BuffyBot wrote: »

Unfortuntely, that wouldn't really possible or logistically sound.

On the rare occasion that a moderator is removed, there is often many factors going on in the background, of which the general populace may not nessecarily be aware of. That's why a "democratic" voting system isn't a model that would work very well.



I'd reject that. There is no "right" way that pleases everyone in all situations. Someone, somewhere will always lose out when any desicion is made, alas.

A democratic voting system probably isn't much of an answer of course, but I do feel that the opinions of the users, or more realistically the other Mods that a particular mod works closest with's opinions should be taken into account.


I really don't want this to turn into a whole "screw you admins" thing, because that will only encourage the "us V you" problem, I more what to have logical solutions looked at here, because reading the corrospondances, it's very clear that nobody on either side was speaking with cool clarity, and hot headed decisions invariably leave both sides looking bad. As Lloyd suggested a cooling off period could have helped things considerably.

mayordenis

BuffyBot wrote: »

I'd reject that. There is no "right" way that pleases everyone in all situations.

That's true, not in all situations, however this was a very simple situation that didn't need a show of force from the admin team, but it got it anyway.

BuffyBot wrote: »

Someone, somewhere will always lose out when any desicion is made, alas.

Simply wrong, and ridiculously pessimistic.

BuffyBot

By the way folks, I'm leaving this thread open as a discussion on the procedures surrounding removing on Mods.

This is not to be used as a discussion of any particular case. I've deleted one post for that reason, and if it delves into specifics, the thread will be closed.

Keep it neutral, and have a constructive discussion that people might be able to come to with some ideas. It is not a place to rake over ashes.

flahavaj

BuffyBot wrote: »

By the way folks, I'm leaving this thread open as a discussion on the procedures surrounding removing on Mods.

This is not to be used as a discussion of any particular case. I've deleted one post for that reason, and if it delves into specifics, the thread will be closed.

Keep it neutral, and have a constructive discussion that people might be able to come to with some ideas. It is not a place to rake over ashes.

The thread opens by specifically referring to that case, of course thats whats going to happen.

You're just creating a headache for yourself tbh.

mdwexford

BuffyBot wrote: »

By the way folks, I'm leaving this thread open as a discussion on the procedures surrounding removing on Mods.

This is not to be used as a discussion of any particular case. I've deleted one post for that reason, and if it delves into specifics, the thread will be closed.

Keep it neutral, and have a constructive discussion that people might be able to come to with some ideas. It is not a place to rake over ashes.

Thats pathetic to be honest, so there is nowhere on boards for posters to discuss the wrongful de-modding of Lloyd??

mayordenis

mdwexford wrote: »

Thats pathetic to be honest, so there is nowhere on boards for posters to discuss the wrongful de-modding of Lloyd??

Certainly not here.

~Rebel~

flahavaj wrote: »

The thread opens by specifically referring to that case, of course thats whats going to happen.

You're just creating a headache for yourself tbh.

An incident occured which points out a very basic and obvious flaw in some of the websites procedures. This thread is to see if those procedures could be corrected so that incidents like this don't happen again, and ideally that this incident could be retrospectively resolved in a more...tasteful fashion.

In general it just doesn't seem fair the way someone who devotes a lot of their time to the forum can be treated, over something so small, with so little consideration.

As I proposed, it just makes sense to at least run any decision by the people most effected by it, in this case either the users of any particular forum, or at the very least that forums Mods. Also, to remove any rash decisions and mistakes, a time of, say 2 days, should be given so that everyone involved can get to grips with whats happening, the two sides of the argument, and the consequences of said decision.

BuffyBot

..and I'm asking that people do not refer to it.

If you want to provide some general Feedback: go ahead.

If you wish to discuss an issue between an individual and the Admins, we're not entertaining that. The person is well able to communicate with us in person. We're not unaware that he's well liked or popular.

KevIRL

Quite simply we as Mods should be treated with a good degree of respect when it comes to something as huge as a demodding, and when its a demodding of all ones forums even moreso.

Demodding after one PM is extremely harsh unless the case is absolutely crystal clear cut. I gave an example before of a regular poster on one of the forums I mod lets call him El Stuntman. If he posted something that we as thought was not something we wanted on the forum (but not something obvious like spam, porn, rakeback and so on etc), something which could be seen as debateable, anyway if we sent him a PM asking him not to post and his reply was that he thought it was fine and would post it again then our first reaction would not be to ban him.

In summary engage and dont just demod instantly.

steoin

~Rebel~ wrote: »

a cooling off period

a point of PARAMOUNT significance.

Jazzy

i smell a boards red tape marathon with all the correct and brilliant words being used.

oh, and is this another case of a female mod/admin being circled by wagons by all the usual suspects? and i got called crazy for even suggesting such a thing


the layers of bullsh1t and bureaucracy you people build up is truly amazing. a poster not a million miles from this case once reported me for abuse for saying "do you like fishsticks" on the soccer forum. the mod gave me a yellow card and agreed with me over how overly sensitive the poster in question was but said 'i had to do it, but... ya know...'

that was that situation over and dealt with.


now look what you have done. you dig your own holes. but here, circle the wagons and say the hole doesnt exist, please it would prove me right so so much and we couldnt allow that

mayordenis

BuffyBot wrote: »

The person is well able to communicate with us in person. We're not unaware that he's well liked or popular.

I would like to say that not referring to any particular case but to have 1 person in any case argue there case against a 15 person body (who generally act as a single unit) is completely imbalanced, the way even any debate would be with numbers, in all cases not any 1 case (certainly not any case being talked about elsewhere right now) it should be possible for a reasonable appeal to be made alongside the singular effort of the person who is dealing with the admins.

I hope it is clear I am not referring to any specific case and am only tackling the general rule and where it can be applied.

I love semantics.

flahavaj

~Rebel~ wrote: »

An incident occured which points out a very basic and obvious flaw in some of the websites procedures. This thread is to see if those procedures could be corrected so that incidents like this don't happen again, and ideally that this incident could be retrospectively resolved in a more...tasteful fashion.

In general it just doesn't seem fair the way someone who devotes a lot of their time to the forum can be treated, over something so small, with so little consideration.

You shouldn't have referred to the specific case in your OP then, it hinders rather than helps the agenda you're pushing in this thread.

At the end of the day, if Admins see fit to demod someone they don't have to/aren't going to justify it to anyone, in the same way that if a poster gets banned they get the standard line that boards.ie isn't a democracy.

tm2204

mayordenis wrote: »

Certainly not here.

Then where???

mayordenis

tm2204 wrote: »

Then where???

Right now? nowhere.
Hopefully that can change though.

phantom_lord

BuffyBot wrote: »

..and I'm asking that people do not refer to it.

If you want to provide some general Feedback: go ahead.

If you wish to discuss an issue between an individual and the Admins, we're not entertaining that. The person is well able to communicate with us in person. We're not unaware that he's well liked or popular.

My mind just boggles at your general attitude to users on this site. I think it's just incredible.

mayordenis

The Admins attitude is not up for debate,
Everyone here is equal guys, just some are more equal that others.

Pepe LeFrits

This is extremely disappointing.

BuffyBot

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

Overheal

I know this is The Internet and things happen @ 299,792,458 m / s and all that, But if I'm to understand - from what I've seen - that a regime change is happening quite instantly: That should not be the case. Specifically, removing a Mod from the Mod back-forum just severs a critical line of communication that I am sure has proven helpful over the years in keeping inter-moderation disputes Private and Confidential. In one case, banning a mod from the forum has caused what should have been an A-Typical Altercation into a rather Public Debacle, readable to all.

That, and a reasonable amount of time needs to be set for the Mod to be able to defend his own actions.

the layers of bullsh1t and bureaucracy you people build up is truly amazing. a poster not a million miles from this case once reported me for abuse for saying "do you like fishsticks" on the soccer forum. the mod gave me a yellow card and agreed with me over how overly sensitive the poster in question was but said 'i had to do it, but... ya know...'

Ugh. Yes. We all watch South Park.

mdwexford

mayordenis wrote: »

Certainly not here.

mayordenis wrote: »

Right now? nowhere.
Hopefully that can change though.

mayordenis wrote: »

The Admins attitude is not up for debate,
Everyone here is equal guys, just some are more equal that others.

Are you not just a normal mod, who are you to say what goes on or what doesnt??

kryogen

the general attitude towards users on his site is getting more and more dismissive from certain groups, this can surely bring no good in the future?

in future when proposing or deciding to de-mod a mod surely the suggestion of asking the opinions of his/her fellow section mods and cat mods would be beneficiary as to get a clearer picture of the mods character which is of course what is under scrutiny during a de-modding no?

~Rebel~

flahavaj wrote: »

At the end of the day, if Admins see fit to demod someone they don't have to/aren't going to justify it to anyone, in the same way that if a poster gets banned they get the standard line that boards.ie isn't a democracy.

Y'know I don't usually have any trouble with a user being banned, because the procedures in place are actually quite decent - generally if you have been banned you deserve it.

It seems the procedures for a de-modding are not quite so clear. It seems one can be demodded for something very small.

This makes especially little sense given that an end user seems to get more protection and warning they are treading the line then someone who actually gives something back to the website by way of their time and diligence.



Would one of the Admins be able to post up the actual Procedure for an issue becoming a demodding?

~Is it really a case of make one decision admins disagree with and you're out?

~Are there really no facilities in place to look at the broader contribution of a particular mod V's the actual incident said mod caused?

~Is there actually no "thinking time" required for a decision this brash? Can someone really be demodded with immediate effect in cases where the offence clearly does not warrent it? (Obviously if a mod were to start posting p0rn around the place, they would need to go asap)

Thanks

tm2204

mayordenis wrote: »

Right now? nowhere.
Hopefully that can change though.

Then why is there nowhere right now?

Why can't we discuss this on a public forum?

Has there never been a case like this before or has 'Mr X' (can't mention his name :rolleyes:) set a precedent?

This is getting beyond a joke TBH...

mayordenis

tm2204 wrote: »

Why can't we discuss this on a public forum?

Many have died trying to get an answer to that question.

KevIRL

flahavaj wrote: »

At the end of the day, if Admins see fit to demod someone they don't have to/aren't going to justify it to anyone, .

This of course is true, the admins run the site and can do what they see fit. However if demoddings are to happen regulary in a manner so swift and disagreeable as a matter of course to mods that have given a lot of time for free to help on the site then I daresay the admins will find themselves with a lot less mods willing to moderate forums

_blank_

mdwexford wrote: »

Are you not just a normal mod,

Nope, mayordenis could not be described as normal.:pac:

Jazzy

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

no, thats not what we'd like. we'd like admins to be a bit more human in situations like this and not so bloody formal.

it really is very simple. 'procedures' only get you so far. half the problems in this country is to do with 'procedures' and legislation and if you mirror the leadership on this site to that of the country, i can see why. clear as day

tm2204

mayordenis wrote: »

Many have died trying to get an answer to that question.

It's a serious question; didn't expect a flippant answer.

kryogen

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

in a case, no case in particular, where a mountain has been made out of a mole hill could there be no way that both parties could come to agreement without losing face?

insta de-modding is surely not the best course of action available?

And for example,if one admin is having a bad day or maybe mis reads a situation and makes a snap decision that they later re evaluate to be wrong, but will not be seen to back down, is this not counter productive?

surely time and thought and fair open minded debate between both sides in private is the best re course?

Overheal

kryogen wrote: »

the general attitude towards users on his site is getting more and more dismissive from certain groups, this can surely bring no good in the future?

in future when proposing or deciding to de-mod a mod surely the suggestion of asking the opinions of his/her fellow section mods and cat mods would be beneficiary as to get a clearer picture of the mods character which is of course what is under scrutiny during a de-modding no?

Which is what I suspect happens when a Cat Mod or group of forum Mods decides to elect a New Moderator. So yeah, I dont see why the same shouldnt apply to their De-Modding.

Jazzy wrote:

no, thats not what we'd like. we'd like admins to be a bit more human in situations like this and not so bloody formal.

it really is very simple. 'procedures' only get you so far. half the problems in this country is to do with 'procedures' and legislation and if you mirror the leadership on this site to that of the country, i can see why. clear as day

In fairness the whole site is basically a Social Experiment. Im fascinated to see how over time its gone from nigh Informal to a basic Requirement to introduce Formality and Procedure: Either through on-site incidents, or even Lawsuits.

BuffyBot

in future when proposing or deciding to de-mod a mod surely the suggestion of asking the opinions of his/her fellow section mods and cat mods would be beneficiary as to get a clearer picture of the mods character which is of course what is under scrutiny during a de-modding no?

Generally they are - and we do investigate and get deeper pictures when we need to

Would one of the Admins be able to post up the actual Procedure for an issue becoming a demodding?

A good question - the simple answer is that each case is examined on it's own merits and the context surrounding it.

~Is it really a case of make one decision admins disagree with and you're out?

No, it isn't. If it was, we'd have a lot less Mods

~Are there really no facilities in place to look at the broader contribution of a particular mod V's the actual incident said mod caused?

Yes we do - we look at many different aspects when it comes to a situation like this. We look at their contributions etc, be we also look as past incidents and interactions we've had with them.

~Is there actually on "thinking time" required for a decision this brash? Can someone really be demodded with immediate effect in cases where the offence clearly does not warrent it? (Obviously if a mod were to start posting p0rn around the place, they would need to go asap)

More thinking time than one might imagine. The problem is that by not de-modding someone, they have access to rights and tools which they can do damage with. We've seen it happen before - and while not everyone will do such a thing - the standard situation when someone is removed is to remove their rights completey.

mayordenis

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

No again your laying out completely unrealistic options, why must the 2 options be so far removed from eachother?
A happy medium, could easily be found in a case like this, but that is not your remit,

Lets take a hypothetical situation,

Lets say "Mod X" who is modding "forum Y" dabbles in what would be considered minor trolling,
Now lets say "Admin Z" decides to ask for an explanation, "Mod X" sends a very reasonable explanation but "Admin Z" takes the hump and a very rash quick decision is made.

now why is the only other option a "quasi-employment situation" as you call it? Surely that is counter productive, we would like a resolution, you surely (maybe not) would like a resolution but you only offer what seems like a joke, a bad joke.

And I really think it reflects incredibly poorly on your that you keep dragging up popularity, people don't support others simply because of popularity, sometimes it's because they support the correct course of action.

BuffyBot

And for example,if one admin is having a bad day or maybe mis reads a situation and makes a snap decision that they later re evaluate to be wrong, but will not be seen to back down, is this not counter productive?

That's why one Admin will rarely make desicion on something so serious alone. We discuss and look into it, and various people will express opinions of differing kinds.

surely time and thought and fair open minded debate between both sides in private is the best re course?

Generally, that's what we endeavour to do.

copacetic

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

I'd just expect mods to be treated fairly and honestly, much as you would hope users would be. They are held to a higher standard but are also treated at least as well, certainly not worse.

Once that happens you will generally find that you don't have half as many hard and unpopular choices to make. If that isn't done and most people can see that it isn't done, then it calls into question how boards is run imo.

We have built up quite a history of issues around this over the last year or so and it appears if anything we are going backwards in the handling of them, not forwards.

~Rebel~

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

I've mentioned a few potential simple reforms which would have stopped this particular issue in its tracks, and would I'm sure stop future problems from escalating so suddenly.

It is hard to know what to suggest when we don't know what we're dealing with however, so would be awesome if someone could actually pop up the exact procedure of a de-modding.

YULETIRED

Dev is a poker player, I challenge him to play LL in a HORSE game. If LL wins he becomes a born again MOD, if he loses, kick him out, Anyone loses to Dev should deffo be banned from being a poker mod. Also we in the poker forum would cease whinging due to our 'that's poker ' philosophy

Take it to the admins buffybot you know it's a good idea.

My name is URL

Meh, it's the CMods and co-mods that should make the initial decision about someone being modded or de-modded.. after all they're the ones that have a more immediate scope of how their forums run and how the regular posters like how it runs

imho, admins just bring a whole load of unnecessary politics into it

flahavaj

BuffyBot wrote: »

More thinking time than one might imagine. The problem is that by not de-modding someone, they have access to rights and tools which they can do damage with. We've seen it happen before - and while not everyone will do such a thing - the standard situation when someone is removed is to remove their rights completey.

This is quite a worrying and sinister statement. What rights and tools do they have access to and what kind of damage could they do?

leninbenjamin

For organisation that pride's itself on fostering a sense of community, something is rotten that such a decision could be taken so lightly by such a select few.

~Rebel~

BuffyBot wrote: »

More thinking time than one might imagine. The problem is that by not de-modding someone, they have access to rights and tools which they can do damage with. We've seen it happen before - and while not everyone will do such a thing - the standard situation when someone is removed is to remove their rights completey.

In this case, surely a simple solution is to remove mod powers but keep access to the Mod forum? That way the user cannot cause trouble and still has a line of communication and that way, the unwashed masses like myself might never hear of such incidents.

You already have this in place for the end user with "Prison", so surely it just makes sense to have an equivilent one tier higher?

flahavaj

~Rebel~ wrote: »

It is hard to know what to suggest when we don't know what we're dealing with however, so would be awesome if someone could actually pop up the exact procedure of a de-modding.

Why would they make this info vailable to normal users?

Fratton Fred

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

I think it all comes down to accountability. To us average Joes, this all happens behind closed doors so we are not able to hold anyone accountable. What doesn't help either is that when something like this happens, the shutters go up and none of the mods will discuss it. Its almost as if other mods are afraid of the admins.

A lot of people are now controbuting towards boards and as such I think it is only fair that people get treated more like customers and given some sort of explanation to events such as this.

After all, mods, posters and admins, all are needed to make this place work.