Can you build muscle on a deficit?

MissMotivated

I'll make this quick, don't want to bore ye!!
I'm 26 yo female, 5ft, 51 kg, 26% bodyfat. Goal=build muscle, lower bodyfat.

Basically I do a 3day split weights/cardio routine, I do a few weights machines where I can lift 30-40kg, the rest are free weights where the most I can lift is 5 kg, It's not that I'm afraid of lifting more or anything like that but I can't physically do it yet, I intend on trying to increase each week.
So first question is are my weghts too light to build muscle?

I've worked out on various cals calculators that to lose weight I need about 1400 cals, I haven't been too strict about this and haven't been counting cals (don't want to get obsessed doing it) but I definitely think I've been taking in more in the last few weeks. So I'm going to start tracking cals roughly so I know what I'm taking in.
But is it even possible to build muscle on a deficit or eating at maintanence? Should I be eating more in order to build muscle? Also I know diet is key to lose the fat so I'm going to reassess that but just wondering am I at nothing with my weights?

corkcomp

MissMotivated wrote: »

I'll make this quick, don't want to bore ye!!
I'm 26 yo female, 5ft, 51 kg, 26% bodyfat. Goal=build muscle, lower bodyfat.

Basically I do a 3day split weights/cardio routine, I do a few weights machines where I can lift 30-40kg, the rest are free weights where the most I can lift is 5 kg, It's not that I'm afraid of lifting more or anything like that but I can't physically do it yet, I intend on trying to increase each week.
So first question is are my weghts too light to build muscle?

I've worked out on various cals calculators that to lose weight I need about 1400 cals, I haven't been too strict about this and haven't been counting cals (don't want to get obsessed doing it) but I definitely think I've been taking in more in the last few weeks. So I'm going to start tracking cals roughly so I know what I'm taking in.
But is it even possible to build muscle on a deficit or eating at maintanence? Should I be eating more in order to build muscle? Also I know diet is key to lose the fat so I'm going to reassess that but just wondering am I at nothing with my weights?

you are very unlikely to build a lot of muscle on 1400cals. lift a weight that you are almost failing to lift at last rep, no point faffing about with very light weights, but its the challenge involved in lifting and progression that count. you might build a little if you are eating close to maintenance.

you should also do some cardio, especially intervals.

MissMotivated

I do cardio after my weights, I try to do HIIT on the crosstrainer, it may not be exactly HIIT but I'm always fecked after it!!
I usually do 2 sets 8-12 reps, and I am always failing to lift the last few sometimes with a 4kg weight! I have no problem lifting heavy weights I'm just very weak at the moment, I'm hoping to be able to improve every week. I pretty much knew I probably wouldn't build muscle on 1400, I just really don't want to gain weight, I've been working hard to lose it!!:(

amazingemmet

Don't care about what the scales says, just care about the mirror. If you are new to training you will gain some muscle even on a deficit not a lot but it is part of your body adapting to the stresses you place on it.

walshb

Muscle needs fuel, food, energy or whatever, and most importantly, muscle needs activity to work it. I think 1400 is a little low. Your weight seems very good. I would imagine you are not carrying any excess weight and are within your range.

Your range is: For a 5 foot woman, start at 100 lbs and every inch taller you add 5 lbs.
The ideal range is 10 percent either side of this final figure. So, for you, it is ten percent of 100 lbs + or -. Your range is 90-110 lbs, and you are currently 112 lbs. Perfect.

I would say eat high energy and protein foods. Plenty of fish, chicken and fruit and vegetables; 5- 6 glasses of water a day and plenty of exercise with the weights. Don't forget the cardio as mentioned. Remember the fluids, too little water leads to water retention.

MissMotivated

Thanks for the replies:

@ amazingemmet - I don't weigh myself at all now as I don't think the scales are reliable. I occasionally get weighed in the gym when my measurements and bodyfat % are being measured but I much prefer to go by how my clothes fit and my measurements.

@ walshb - I am happy with my weight now, I lost about 3 kgs in the past few months and I seem to be maintaining the 51kg since before xmas. But I have alot of fat on my stomach and arms I'd like to get rid of but I know I can't spot reduce fat. I long for a flat stomach and lean arms!I didn't want to get hung up on counting cals because I fear I would get a bit obsessed with it but think I will start tracking roughly so I have an idea of what I'm taking in, and I suppose I need to be super strict with my diet if I want to lose this extra fat. I have cleaned up my diet alot in the last few months but I guess there's always room for improvement! I do my best to drink 2 litres of water every day, I have my biggest meal at lunch where I have fish/chicken with veg or steakmince bologneise with loads of veg in. I love eggs so I either have 2 boiled for breakfast or an omelette in the evening with veg, haven't been eating as much fruit in the past few weeks but that can be rectified as I do actually love fruit

walshb

If you want to lose the "fat" you are carrying, then weight has to physically come off, and at 8 stones, you are going to have to drop a further 7-12 lbs to notice the "fat" off your areas. You being 5 feet would still be ok weighing 46-48 kilogrammes.

It will be tough to drop the weight, but believe me, when you step on the scales and see 7 stones 5 lbs, you will see where it went.

Hey, make sure you keep a high fibre diet. Beans, peas and good old Kellogs All Bran.

2 litres isn't essential. The standard formula is 1/2 ounce of liquid per lb of weight.

So, you at 112 lbs should strive for 56 ounces of liquids. A little over a litre a day.
Remember, about 20 percent of your daily liquid comes from your food.

MissMotivated

walshb wrote: »

If you want to lose the "fat" you are carrying, then weight has to physically come off, and at 8 stones, you are going to have to drop a further 7-12 lbs to notice the "fat" off your areas. You being 5 feet would still be ok weighing 46-48 kilogrammes.

It will be tough to drop the weight, but believe me, when you step on the scales and see 7 stones 5 lbs, you will see where it went.

Hey, make sure you keep a high fibre diet. Beans, peas and good old Kellogs All Bran.

2 litres isn't essential. The standard formula is 1/2 ounce of liquid per lb of weight.

So, you at 112 lbs should strive for 56 ounces of liquids. A little over a litre a day.
Remember, about 20 percent of your daily liquid comes from your food.

I actually find it easy to drink the 2 litres, I keep a 1 litre bottle at my desk and keep refilling. High fiber is definitely an area where I could improve in my diet anyway. Yeah to be honest I do think I need to lose another few pounds, there is a nice handful of fat there and I won't be happy until I've gotten rid of it!! I overindulged at xmas and allowed myself whatever I wanted, but my sweet tooth is gone mad since then, and before xmas I had actually gotten to a stage where I had stopped craving sugar! I need to cut it out again and ignore the cravings until they subside!
Thanks for the advice!

walshb

Forgot to mention one of the simplest ways to shed weight, bed early.
The longer you are in bed and away from temptation, the more weight you lose.
Get a craving at night? Hit the bed, turn on some music and fall asleep, that craving and hunger will be gone in the morning

MissMotivated

walshb wrote: »

Forgot to mention one of the simplest ways to shed weight, bed early.
The longer you are in bed and away from temptation, the more weight you lose.
Get a craving at night? Hit the bed, turn on some music and fall asleep, that craving and hunger will be gone in the morning

That's one thing I don't need convincing on, me and my bed are best buds!!!:)

walshb

MissMotivated wrote: »

That's one thing I don't need convincing on, me and my bed are best buds!!!:)

Good luck, keep me posted on how it goes. Do check your weight regularly, at least every two days I would say. Helps keep you motivated and is good for planning your day ahead.

corkcomp

walshb wrote: »

Good luck, keep me posted on how it goes. Do check your weight regularly, at least every two days I would say. Helps keep you motivated and is good for planning your day ahead.

not trying to pick a fight BUT, dont do that! once every two weeks is enough IMO, use the mirror and how lose your clothes feel around your waist as a guide. you will drive yourself mad weighting every two days as there will naturally be fluctuations...

MissMotivated

Might stick to once a week in the gym, I presume their scales are accurate! Will do, thanks again!

walshb

corkcomp wrote: »

not trying to pick a fight BUT, dont do that! once every two weeks is enough IMO, use the mirror and how lose your clothes feel around your waist as a guide. you will drive yourself mad weighting every two days as there will naturally be fluctuations...

Well, personally I weigh every day when keeping in shape. It is important to weigh
at the same time every day, to minimize fluctuations. And, use the same scales too, and make sure it is accurate. It's not that easy to notice changes, especially if you are already toned and neat. That is why keeping a check on it every two or three days is a great guide to see how you are doing.

There are some very good electronic scales for about 50-60 Euro in Homestore and other
DIY shops. They are very accurate and precise.

jaggiebunnet

walshb wrote: »

Well, personally I weigh every day when keeping in shape. It is important to weigh
at the same time every day, to minimize fluctuations. And, use the same scales too, and make sure it is accurate. It's not that easy to notice changes, especially if you are already toned and neat. That is why keeping a check on it every two or three days is a great guide to see how you are doing.

There are some very good electronic scales for about 50-60 Euro in Homestore and other
DIY shops. They are very accurate and precise.

Why would you be weighing yourself every 2 or 3 days if you are already toned? I can see if you are competing in something competitively that might be a good idea but sounds a bit obsessive otherwise, IMHO.

walshb

MissMotivated wrote: »

Might stick to once a week in the gym, I presume their scales are accurate! Will do, thanks again!

Don't presume. From experience I have seen many gym scales to be inaccurate.
The mechanical ones are notorious. Remember, every Tom, Dick&Harry is up and down on them. Buy yourself an electronic scales and use it when you want.

walshb

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

Why would you be weighing yourself every 2 or 3 days if you are already toned? I can see if you are competing in something competitively that might be a good idea but sounds a bit obsessive otherwise, IMHO.

You wouldn't; but this person is aiming to lose weight. For this instance, she needs to see if that weight is leaving her, hence, weighing in.

IF you are happy and toned and do not want to lose weight, well, that is a different discussion.

corkcomp

i still think the OP wont be jumping on a scales every two days if she has any sense!

ragg

op weigh your self whenever the **** you feel like it - what a surreal argument

g'em

corkcomp wrote: »

i still think the OP wont be jumping on a scales every two days if she has any sense!

Fo' sho'.

Gawd I'd drive myself mental if I was to get up on the scales every two days. Once a week, first thing in the morning, after a pee (and a number 2 perhaps) and before breakfast will give you the most reliable reading of your weight.

g'em

ragg wrote: »

op weigh your self whenever the **** you feel like it - what a surreal argument

Not really - when people start out losing weight they can get very, very disconcerted by the fluctuations they see on the scales. I can vary by 3 or 4lbs during the day depending on my activity/ fluid and food intake.

Giving people a set time to weigh themselves each week gives them a more realistic idea of how their progress is coming along. It can be mighty hard to stay on track if you find the scales going in the wrong direction.

MissMotivated

Yeah I think I will stick with once a week to be honest. I went through a stage a few years ago where I would weigh myself every day sometimes a few times a day and it did drive me mad, that was back in my fad diets days :rolleyes:!!

walshb

If I can put forward my case, not argument, for the two day rule.

If you opt for once every two weeks say, then you weigh day 1 and day 14.
On day 1 you record your weight and then begin your programme of train and eat and sleep and whatever. At day 14 you weigh and you find that you have lost nothing, or very little, and you have "wasted two weeks on a programme" that you could have altered had you weighed after day 2, day 4, day 6 etc.

My point is that if you are wanting to shed the lbs, then a regular check every two days or so will let you know. It only takes a walk to the bathroom and 5 seconds on the scales. If you see that it's not shifting after two or four days, then you can take action without wasting more time

It can be demoralising as well when after a week or two weeks you see no change.

Anyway, it's all down to choice, so Miss, do as you please and see how it goes.

corkcomp

G'ems point above is exactly what I was trying to get across i.e. even if YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT in terms of diet and exercise and not wasting time, 2 days is NOT ENOUGH time to see any meaningful changes. people will get to know their own bodies quickly enough. believe it or not, i often went months without using a weighing scales in the past and i didnt need to because if my jeans were getting looser then job done

g'em

walshb wrote: »

On day 1 you record your weight and then begin your programme of train and eat and sleep and whatever. At day 14 you weigh and you find that you have lost nothing, or very little, and you have "wasted two weeks on a programme" that you could have altered had you weighed after day 2, day 4, day 6 etc.

It can take up to four days for a food to be completely processed and eliminated by your body. Any "changes" you see in 2 days generally won't be down to your diet and definitely won't be down to alterations in your exercise plan. I'd argue that checking your weight over-zealously will only lead to unnecessary stressing.

g'em

MissMotivated wrote: »

Basically I do a 3day split weights/cardio routine, I do a few weights machines where I can lift 30-40kg, the rest are free weights where the most I can lift is 5 kg, It's not that I'm afraid of lifting more or anything like that but I can't physically do it yet, I intend on trying to increase each week.
So first question is are my weghts too light to build muscle?

The weights you use are all relative to your own ability. Generally speaking you should be using weights that you struggle to finish 8 reps on, if you can manage 10 or 12 they're too light. Lots of girls really underestimate their own strength and are afraid to lift heavy for fear they'll get 'too big' - not that that's what you're doing, just make sure you're pushing yourself enough

walshb

g'em wrote: »

It can take up to four days for a food to be completely processed and eliminated by your body. Any "changes" you see in 2 days generally won't be down to your diet and definitely won't be down to alterations in your exercise plan. I'd argue that checking your weight over-zealously will only lead to unnecessary stressing.

Sorry, I have been at this game for years, and hours, let alone days can see differences, real differences as well. Over zealously would be every couple of hours.

I do not see the harm with every two days in the morning time after you rise. Hardly
psychotic now is it?

walshb

corkcomp wrote: »

G'ems point above is exactly what I was trying to get across i.e. even if YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT in terms of diet and exercise and not wasting time, 2 days is NOT ENOUGH time to see any meaningful changes. people will get to know their own bodies quickly enough. believe it or not, i often went months without using a weighing scales in the past and i didnt need to because if my jeans were getting looser then job done

Depends on your idea of meaningful? If you want to lose 7 lbs, then a 2 lb drop in two to three days is definitely meaningful. Now, if you want to lose 5 stone and you drop two lbs in two to three days, then, this isn't all that meaningful.

g'em

walshb wrote: »

Sorry, I have been at this game for years, and hours, let alone days can see differences, real differences as well. Over zealously would be every couple of hours.

As you say, you've been at this for years, you know how to read your body. Would someone new to this? Probably not, and those are the people who I'm talking about.

And unless you have some superhuman physiology that can anabolise and catabolise your foodstuffs in mega-quick time the differences you are seeing are almost certainly down to fluid fluctuations and glycogen loss/ replenishment, not muscle building or fat burning.

walshb wrote:

I do not see the harm with every two days in the morning time after you rise. Hardly
psychotic now is it?

I never mentioned psychoses? If you like to do it that way, then go ahead. But people who are starting out, who are still learning what to do, how to do it, tend to succeed better by paying more attention to the mirror and how their clothes feel than having to worry about how much the scales read.

I've been at this game a fairly long time too y'know

celestial

walshb wrote: »

Sorry, I have been at this game for years, and hours, let alone days can see differences, real differences as well. Over zealously would be every couple of hours.

I do not see the harm with every two days in the morning time after you rise. Hardly
psychotic now is it?

Psychotic? No. Demoralising, frustrating when the scales doesn't tell you what you want to see? Very likely yes.

Of course you can see differences over hours and days - hydration levels, the amount of food in the body, whether you have just exercised, time of day etc will all lead to varying results on the scales.

The obsession with weight and the scales is one of the biggest scourges of the fitness/health 'industry' - it should not be used as the primary barometer of progress imo - rather the mirror and how your clothes fit should be.

MissMotivated

g'em wrote: »

The weights you use are all relative to your own ability. Generally speaking you should be using weights that you struggle to finish 8 reps on, if you can manage 10 or 12 they're too light. Lots of girls really underestimate their own strength and are afraid to lift heavy for fear they'll get 'too big' - not that that's what you're doing, just make sure you're pushing yourself enough

No I'm definitely not afraid of getting big, I've read enough around here to know women don't have enough testosterone to bulk up quickly like men, i know it takes ALOT of work, though even the instructor in my gym told me to lift light and high reps so I don't bulk up :rolleyes:
I am going to push myself more, I love lifting weights, never thought I would and I love seeing how much I can lift, maybe I am underestimating my own strength!!

g'em

MissMotivated wrote: »

I am going to push myself more, I love lifting weights, never thought I would and I love seeing how much I can lift, maybe I am underestimating my own strength!!

It's great fun isn't it?

One thing you might want to talk to your PT about is moving away from the machines and onto the free weights and doing lifts like lunges, squats, rows, deadlifts, cleans, push ups and benching variations. These compound lifts using free weights will help you burn lots more calories and provide much more resistance to help you get stronger, quicker. Machines are fine to start out with and get used to the feeling of using weights but they're too restrictive and tend to isolate your musles too much so you don't get as much bang for your buck.

Squats and lunges in particular are fab for getting a great bum and they help you strengthen your core too. If you like the machines you'll love free weights!!

walshb

g'em wrote: »

I never mentioned psychoses? If you like to do it that way, then go ahead. But people who are starting out, who are still learning what to do, how to do it, tend to succeed better by paying more attention to the mirror and how their clothes feel than having to worry about how much the scales read.

I've been at this game a fairly long time too y'know

Hey, the mirror check can be ok. I a not against it a all, but how one looks is one thing, how one weighs is another. IF someone wants to specifically lose weight, then the only barometer is a scales. That's my point.

I guess the reason I say regularly or every two days, it's to give yourself a chance to maybe alter your programme and to save wasted time. You go two weeks or more and nothing happens, then to me, that could have been altered had you weighed more frequently. nywy, everyone is different;)

MissMotivated

g'em wrote: »

It's great fun isn't it?

One thing you might want to talk to your PT about is moving away from the machines and onto the free weights and doing lifts like lunges, squats, rows, deadlifts, cleans, push ups and benching variations. These compound lifts using free weights will help you burn lots more calories and provide much more resistance to help you get stronger, quicker. Machines are fine to start out with and get used to the feeling of using weights but they're too restrictive and tend to isolate your musles too much so you don't get as much bang for your buck.

Squats and lunges in particular are fab for getting a great bum and they help you strengthen your core too. If you like the machines you'll love free weights!!

I'm all for more resistance and burning more cals!!My programme includes these machines:chest press, leg curl, seated row, lat pull down and bicep curl, the rest are free weights. When I asked for a weights programme I printed out stuff from here and bb.com, full body routines with only compound lifts, one was similar to starting strength I think but the instructor said I would bulk up doing these . I was under the impression though that a woman could be trained the same as a man. I want my routine to be as effective as possible though that's why I wanted all compound lifts, but she told me I was better off with isolations. I think the only compounds in my routine are squats and lunges. She's meant to be the expert though and I suppose I don't want to come across as smart by disagreeing with her but I want to do whatevers most effective!

g'em

MissMotivated wrote: »

I'm all for more resistance and burning more cals!!My programme includes these machines:chest press, leg curl, seated row, lat pull down and bicep curl, the rest are free weights. When I asked for a weights programme I printed out stuff from here and bb.com, full body routines with only compound lifts, one was similar to starting strength...

Good woman yourself

MissMotivated wrote:

I think but the instructor said I would bulk up doing these .

Oh good Jebus

MissMotivated wrote:

I was under the impression though that a woman could be trained the same as a man.

She can I would love to sit down with this PT and ask her to explain to me in cold hard facts the actual reasons why girls should not do the same lifts as guys.

MissMotivated wrote:

Iwant my routine to be as effective as possible though that's why I wanted all compound lifts, but she told me I was better off with isolations.

Rubbish.

MissMotivated wrote:

She's meant to be the expert though and I suppose I don't want to come across as smart by disagreeing with her but I want to do whatevers most effective!

Unfortunately not all PTs are experts. There are some brilliant ones out there (and here!) but there are some whose basic exercise physiology leaves a lot to be desired.

It's great that you're doing lunges and squats though, that's a start - are you doing them with dumbbells, a barbell or (*gasp* ) a Smith machine?

MissMotivated

I do both using 6 kg dumbbells, don't even know what a smith machine is!!!
This my routine with 30 mins cardio each day after weights, theres also 6 to 7 abs exercises each day which I have to honest I haven't been doing because I still have such a fold of fat covering my abs I didn't see the point in doing them yet until I get rid of that, maybe I'm wrong though. I've reduced reps and increased weight where possible.

Day 1:
Chest , Triceps, Stomach
Chest:
DB Incline Flys 3*15
DB Incline Bench Press 3*15
Chest Press Machine 2*20
Triceps:
Tricep Kickbacks 3*15
Tricep Extensions (overhead) 3*15
Tricep Dips 2*failure

Day 2:
Legs, Shoulders, Stomach
Legs / Glutes:
Squats using DBs 3*15
Single leg lunges 3*15
Leg curls 3*15
Kick backs 3*15
Knee side raises 3*15
Shoulders:
Frontal Raises 2*15
Side Raises 2*15
Shoulder shrugs 2*15

Day 3:
Back, Biceps, Stomach
Back:
Seated Row 3/4 3*15
BOSAR 3*15
Lat Pull Down 3*15
Biceps:
Bicep Curl 3*15
DB Bicep Curls 3*15
Hammer Curls 2*20

ragg

Your PT is a gimp - thats a routine a bodybuilder would use to bulk up...
I'm sure one of the nice PT's here will whip you up a good starting point

MissMotivated

ragg wrote: »

Your PT is a gimp - thats a routine a bodybuilder would use to bulk up...
I'm sure one of the nice PT's here will whip you up a good starting point

Well that would be super!!:D I just really want to have the most effective routine to make the best of my time in the gym and I don't think taht's asking too much of my instructor!!

missy10

MissMotivated wrote: »

Well that would be super!!:D I just really want to have the most effective routine to make the best of my time in the gym and I don't think taht's asking too much of my instructor!!

Hi MissMotivated,

I so agree with you - it can be hard as a female to get instructors to give you a weights workout.

All I heard yesterday was - we don't want to be giving you definition on your shoulders (please do I said), we don't want you actually growing muscle (ahhhhhhhh).

I had to keep saying, nah that's too light, I can do more.

I'm only on upper body weights too - not even my favourite leg press machine as I've loads of weight to lose from my legs and she's worried I'd just add bulk!!!

I don't want to be huge, don't get me wrong, but I do want my body fat % to go down and my legs are the worst (my tummy is my best - woo hoo!!!).


Ahhhhhh - you'd be mad.

Could you let me know of any of the links here to programmes you've printed off - I'd like that.

I've some dumbells and resistance bands at home so I could sneak in extra weights away from prying eyes

MissMotivated

I know, it's like we want to lift weights, we are asking to lift weights, LET US LIFT WEIGHTS!!!!!! That's my goal as, reduce bodyfat, I know it takes work but I am willing to put in that work, I just want to make sure I am doing the right and most effective things!!
Have PMed you some links