"This is a work experience programme and does not offer a salary"

Mediocrity

http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=25743_14&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=22&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM
(click 'next' for more such examples)

Now we all "have to start somewhere", but this is taking the piss surely? Highly qualified people expected to give their services for free? Humiliating is the word.

I seriously doubt the people working for FAS started their careers in public administration in such circumstances.

Puts the air traffic controllers dispute over "new technology" into perspective.

djk1000

In a FAS work placement program, the company that takes you on doesn't pay you a salary, but FAS will pay you the equivalent of job seekers.

Most job ads look for people with experience, this program gives people experience, there is always the possibility of the company keeping the person on too.

Beats sitting on your arse on the dole to be honest!

nesf

You're unemployed, qualified in IT, don't have much or any experience and can't get a paying job right now. So you go, work for 6 months, get another 6 months more experience under your belt while still being able to draw the dole. Or you can spend potentially 6 months on the dole getting nothing to help you get another job when the economy picks up again.


Seriously, I can't see the problem with this for people eager to break into the industry or who just want something to keep them busy etc.

Mediocrity

djk1000 wrote: »

Beats sitting on your arse on the dole to be honest!

I can think of lots of things to be doing with my time than participating in a real-life "Office Space" charade - for free.

Do they expect you to come to work in presentable clothes, pay for transport and smile to their customers?

Funny how the aspirational classes will do anything (including working for free!) to keep up appearances. Social status is a very powerful force.

Mediocrity

nesf wrote: »

Or you can spend potentially 6 months on the dole getting nothing to help you get another job when the economy picks up again.

Dim people sit around smoking weed all day. Stupid people wallow in their hopelessness and work for free. Smart people do amazing things with their lives.

Funny how the unions are quite happy to sit back and allow these work practices to go on. Would you buy products/services from a company that paid below minimum wage?

Overheal

Seems like a good move for a college student looking for their Work Exp component. Its not unheard of for W.E. programmes in college not to pay you.

Mediocrity

Mr.S wrote: »

You get the dole, which is hardly nothing.

Plus you get experience, which will help you get a new job after 6 months.

What would you rather have on your CV, a 6 month gap with no work or a 6 month placement in the field you want a job in?

Lol. I imagine you'd work for free then eh?

Luckily I'm not on the dole either, but there's no way I would work for free. It would send the employer the wrong impression of me as a man. I'm not a walk-over. If you want my services, you pay me properly.

You wouldn't expect a plumber or a handyman to work for free. Why do people think they can get free IT services from people? It's like when your friends and family ask you to "fix" their computers cos they know you have advanced degrees in computer science. I'm not prepared to sit around for half a day to back up their data, reformat their hard disk and reinstall all their applications to suit their exact specifications, when I could be doing other things. I am currently paying an design professional €1,200 for 1.5 days' consulation and I have no problem with this. If he had a bunch of FAS people on €200 a week "working" for him, I would not do business with him.

Mediocrity

Overheal wrote: »

Seems like a good move for a college student looking for their Work Exp component. Its not unheard of for W.E. programmes in college not to pay you.

Would you work for free? The DART is €2 one-way. That's €15 to €20 a week off your dole. Also you like spending your Sunday evenings ironing shirts?

Overheal

Ironing Shirts? Raaandommm...♪

ronbyrne2005

Does seem to be extracting the urine. my mother who has no leaving cert or college went on a back to work scheme through FAS and did a few weeks unpaid in a big company and ended up landing a very well paying job with the company she did work experience with.

nesf

Mediocrity wrote: »

Dim people sit around smoking weed all day. Stupid people wallow in their hopelessness and work for free. Smart people do amazing things with their lives.

And getting more experience under your belt to help you get a job later on isn't a good idea? Yeah the money is **** but it's not like you don't get something to put on your CV by the end of it. If I was a new CS grad that couldn't get a graduate program placement I'd be applying without hesitation. Ditto if I was unemployed and looking to get out of "call centre" style work in the sector etc.

ronbyrne2005

also meant to say that everyone i knew in college doing work experience got paid for it once it was a longish duration such as 6 months-year. I doubt the job advertised above would ever turn into a full time job. If the company cant afford or wont bother hiring a grad on min wage now(loads of grads willing to work min wage now) then they wont do it in 6 months.

thebman

Mediocrity wrote: »

You wouldn't expect a plumber or a handyman to work for free. Why do people think they can get free IT services from people? It's like when your friends and family ask you to "fix" their computers cos they know you have advanced degrees in computer science. I'm not prepared to sit around for half a day to back up their data, reformat their hard disk and reinstall all their applications to suit their exact specifications, when I could be doing other things. I am currently paying an design professional €1,200 for 1.5 days' consulation and I have no problem with this. If he had a bunch of FAS people on €200 a week "working" for him, I would not do business with him.

They aren't really looking for services for free. If you do the work experience they'll probably hire you afterwards. The main problem is in IT it takes 6 months to train someone on your system in many places so some small companies can't afford to pay someone for 6 months of what is essentially training. So people work for free to try to get into a full time position.

Personally I've never done it but I got a good work experience in college and my course was good so I was offered jobs coming out of college.

I was made redundant from my previous job and my employer came back 3 months later offering to let me work voluntarily for them. I declined that TBH because I was insulted that they'd ask me to work my previous position for free.

For someone with absolutely no experience and a reasonable qualification, it can be a good option. Some small companies just can't afford to train people TBH and for the first 6 months in IT, your basically in training. Its very likely that the company would take you on permanently after you got up to speed on all their systems.

Zambia

This is a choice you can do it or not do it. Wether you want to do it or not at least the oppurtunity is there. Most countries are all about contacts you make no contacts in the dole office.

In essence this is a chance to impress people you are a good employment option.

If you don't want to do it no one is forcing anyone.

Fratton Fred

Looks like a choice between sitting on your arse moaning that you can't get a job because you have no experience, or doing something about it.

When you are unemployed, you need to have something that goves you an advantage over other people seeking the same job, this looks to be one way of doing just that.

Mediocrity

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

katkin

This scheme is a half-baked response by the govt to deal with levels of joblessness among the under 25s. Also a nice one for business, here the banks won't lend you any money but the govt have these scheme whereby you can employ qualified people for nothing. This is no help at all to the overall unemployment situation, I mean this has to be an anti-employment measure. Its a bit like CE schemes and Local Training Initiatives - some groups just get away with using these schemes for years and never hiring any staff under better terms, there's usually a very well paid manager at the top. Was looking at the WPP opportunities in Clare/Limk/Tipp on the site, see one there for Journal Publishing Co-ordinator in Shannon, the company isn't named but it has to be Elsevier when you read the description as its scientific publishing. Like most companies the Elservier Reed group are a bit down on profits but they are still very profitable, but sure why hire people who already have the experience and qualifications to do the job when you get someone for nothing. After the six months there is nothing stopping the company from re-advertising the WPP and continuing to gain free labour for the post. I think its horse**** anyway.

oscarBravo

Mediocrity wrote: »

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

I don't understand why you're so implacably opposed to this scheme.

If someone is a recently-qualified graduate with no work experience and no job offers, you evidently feel that they shouldn't take up this scheme to gain work experience. What do you think they should do instead? Sit at home on the dole? Which do you think would look better on their CV?

As an employer, I know which I'd rather see.

oscarBravo

katkin wrote: »

This scheme is a half-baked response by the govt to deal with levels of joblessness among the under 25s.

What should the government have done instead?

Alcatel

Speaking as an employer, I've taken on interns during the recession, people of very high calibre, and I've turned away plenty more. They've had to work hard for me. But those who have proven themselves have full time, paid positions with me.

I see it as firstly a chance for us to trade real world experience for their time and effort - though it is an education for them, and takes time for us to teach, too. Secondly, it can be an extended job interview.

When looking to hire people these days, I look and see what they've done with their time. People who've taken work experience or worked with non-profits on a voluntary basis are beating the folks sitting at home with nothing to show for themselves every time I look for talent, or any of the business managers I know look for it.

Seth Brundle

Mediocrity wrote: »

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

Nonsense!
I'm curious to know roughly what age you are. This thread stinks of people who never knew what it was like when it was really difficult to get a job! When you do a work placement, it gives the company an opportunity to see you and also gives you and opportunity to see the company. The idea behind it is not for the company to find a pushover who will work for next to nothing whilst demoralised and ending up leaving within a few months, it is to find someone who is eager, has the right attitude and skills, is prepared to learn, etc.

douglashyde

Mediocrity wrote: »

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

If start your morning sitting on your arse, you'll end your evening sitting on your arse.

Mediocrity - your philosophical replies doesnt make your points anymore valid.

The point is simple - while working for this company you ARE getting paid - you are being paid "jobseekers allowance" - keep in mind, trainning and placement is considered part of jobseeking.

http://www.fas.ie/en/Allowances+and+Grants/default.htm I realise that you dont have much spare time in the day- I can't begin to imagine how busy you are - however if you did have time and managed to read the above FAS link, you would have read this:

"Participants of the majority of FÁS training courses are eligible for different allowances. The main allowances are given for the course participants' Training, Travel, Accommodation and Meals, and Childcare."

So stop moaning about your bus and lunch and get a damn job.

neilthefunkeone

Mediocrity wrote: »

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

Oh totally agree here.. My career started off stacking shelves and mopping floors in Aldi and tesco and its has taken a horrible spiral downwards to a Network Engineer in a large company...

oh wait...

F-Stop

It's so insulting when people assist you in becoming more employable.

hobochris

neilthefunkeone wrote: »

Oh totally agree here.. My career started off stacking shelves and mopping floors in Aldi and tesco and its has taken a horrible spiral downwards to a Network Engineer in a large company...

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that.. suppose it can happen to any of us.

:P:D

FlutterinBantam

Mediocrity wrote: »

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

Any chance you might define your interpretation of a 'pushover'.

I find your attitude interesting.

Mediocrity

After a very short while, these "give us your qualifications for free" schemes will become the norm rather than the exception. Big business will expect it rather than being seen to be "offering experience".

It's a slippery slope. If young people accept this kind of exploitation, then what else will they take up the ass? Frankly, the PAYE worker would be better off if these so-called bright young people fecked off elsewhere. Somewhere like India or Pakistan where they can work for free to their heart's content. The ordinary decent worker is better off without them.

As I said before, it's amazing what the aspirational classes will subject themselves to in order to keep up appearances.

Fratton Fred

Mediocrity wrote: »

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

As opposed to not starting a career at all!?!

Is it not better to die fighting?

douglashyde

Mediocrity wrote: »

After a very short while, these "give us your qualifications for free" schemes will become the norm rather than the exception. Big business will expect it rather than being seen to be "offering experience".

It's a slippery slope. If young people accept this kind of exploitation, then what else will they take up the ass? Frankly, the PAYE worker would be better off if these so-called bright young people fecked off elsewhere. Somewhere like India or Pakistan where they can work for free to their heart's content. The ordinary decent worker is better off without them.

As I said before, it's amazing what the aspirational classes will subject themselves to in order to keep up appearances.

wow - I can see now why you are unemployed. After much thought, I think its better that you stay on social welfare.

Mediocrity

douglashyde wrote: »

wow - I can see now why you are unemployed. After much thought, I think its better that you stay on social welfare.

Ah yes, attitudes such as this only add to the social stigma of being unemployed. Actually, I'm writing a paper at the moment. What are you doing?

wes

Working for free always struck me as a bad idea. Unpaid internships etc tend to make is difficult for poorer people to get a foot in the door so to speak, as some people simply can't work for fee, as they have to eat, pay bills etc.

However, in this care, at least you do get Job seekers allowance, so isn't as bad, and the experience will be useful. Still, I think instead of a unpaid internship with job seekers allowance, people should at least get the minimum wage, which I don't think a too outrageous thing to ask.

NothingMan

Mediocrity wrote: »

It's a slippery slope. If young people accept this kind of exploitation, then what else will they take up the ass? Frankly, the PAYE worker would be better off if these so-called bright young people fecked off elsewhere. Somewhere like India or Pakistan where they can work for free to their heart's content. The ordinary decent worker is better off without them.

As I said before, it's amazing what the aspirational classes will subject themselves to in order to keep up appearances.

So a "so called bright young person" drawing job seekers allowance, which is for job placement & training, takes up an offer of placement & training, they are now in the "aspirational class"? And in no way may just be taking the position because they would like to become a "PAYE worker" or "Ordinary decent worker"?

You throw a lot of buzzwords out there, but you don't seem to define them very well or use them in an understandable context. Are you in management?

oscarBravo

You've avoided some direct and simple questions, Mediocrity.

Mediocrity

oscarBravo wrote: »

As an employer, I know which I'd rather see.

What's the average salary in your organisation? Do you employ people full-time or do you use contract staff?

oscarBravo

Mediocrity wrote: »

What's the average salary in your organisation?

With respect, that's none of your business.

Do you employ people full-time or do you use contract staff?

Full- and part-time.

You still haven't answered the questions.

Mediocrity

oscarBravo wrote: »

With respect, that's none of your business.

As an employer, I'm sure you'd offer your expertise for free. For the country like. Shoulder to the wheel and all that.

oscarBravo

Mediocrity wrote: »

As an employer, I'm sure you'd offer your expertise for free. For the country like. Shoulder to the wheel and all that.

...and, yet again, you've refused to answer the questions. I guess I'll just have to draw my own conclusions.

NothingMan

Mediocrity wrote: »

As an employer, I'm sure you'd offer your expertise for free. For the country like. Shoulder to the wheel and all that.

I don't know if you just choose to ignore everyone elses logical arguments or if you just don't get it. Maybe you're just a troll and I should ignore you, but on the off chance you're serious, I don't think any company would want you, free or not, so you've nothing to worry about.

Mediocrity

NothingMan wrote: »

I don't know if you just choose to ignore everyone elses logical arguments or if you just don't get it. Maybe you're just a troll and I should ignore you, but on the off chance you're serious, I don't think any company would want you, free or not, so you've nothing to worry about.

Another €200/week volunteer. :pac:

You even get to work in a big glass office building and wear a shirt and tie.

NothingMan

Mediocrity wrote: »

Another €200/week volunteer. :pac:

You even get to work in a big glass office building and wear a shirt and tie.

If I was unemplyed and didn't have my 4 years IT experience then i'd seriously consider it, especially if I was applying for jobs that required 6 months experience.

Unfortunately my office is mostly brick not glass, and I don't wear a tie, but I appreciate your assumptions about everyone. They're nothing if not mildly amusing.

Mediocrity

oscarBravo wrote: »

What do you think they should do instead? Sit at home on the dole?

Are you that narrow-minded that you wouldn't know what to do with yourself during the day time?

You are being very wily by presenting an either/or situation.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Which do you think would look better on their CV?

My CV is in great shape thank you very much. (not that I'm so shallow as to live my live according to how it would affect my CV). Word of mouth recommendations is by far the best way of securing a job. Posting in a CV to some random company and hoping that someone in the HR department will read it is a sure-fire way of landing yourself a position as a drone: i.e. a parasitic functionary who is no different to the server in the corner that costs €30,000 a year to run.

Gurgle

This is essentially a 6-month interview process.

If you're good enough, you get a job out of it. If not, you're back on the dole with 6 months experience on your CV.

Either way its win-win.

Besides, theres nothing to stop you job hunting while on the program.

Sleepy

I have to admit, I'd be tempted by something like this if it were in a different area (e.g. open source or development) to my main experience (almost 7 years) but with a family to support, it's not really an option.

jmayo

Mediocrity wrote: »

http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=25743_14&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=22&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM
(click 'next' for more such examples)

Now we all "have to start somewhere", but this is taking the piss surely? Highly qualified people expected to give their services for free? Humiliating is the word.

I seriously doubt the people working for FAS started their careers in public administration in such circumstances.

Puts the air traffic controllers dispute over "new technology" into perspective.

Back in the bad old days of the 80s or early 90s people sometimes did this, because get it, there weren't jobs out there and even though people had degress, dimplomas, etc they did not have actaul relevent work experience.

In fact one of the state technology agencies (can't remember the name Eolas maybe) ran a program where they helped companies employ engineers, etc by helping pay the 10,000 punds a year salary.
At time a normal starting salary might be around 12,000/13,000.

Now we are back to those old days again.
We no longer live in 2000 when IT graduates with half assed qualifications and no experience could sail into a job, act the maggot for a few months (or even weeks) and decide to jump to another job with the help of those leeching recruitment agencies.
Neither are we in 2007 when there was loads of jobs in retial/construciton and ancillairy services or one could decide to go off and work on a site for more money than a professional could get.

I think OP may be one of our younger generation who are going to have to get used to the new reality where jobs are scare and something to hold onto, where cars, holidays, gap years travelling are no longer easily accessible through cheap loans.

I would say if the experience is going to be good i.e. good company offering valuable skills with good prospects, then people should take it.
Trust me the alternative is probably much worse long term.

Oh and if you think emigrating is the solution, remember foreigners also like people with experience rather than those that sat around because they felt jobs were beneath them.

BTW if you did have your CV pushed my direction by a friend, relative, etc (using the good old Irish it's who know rather than what you know mentality) I would find your attitude on this a turnoff.

douglashyde

Mediocrity wrote: »

Ah yes, attitudes such as this only add to the social stigma of being unemployed. Actually, I'm writing a paper at the moment. What are you doing?

Believe it or not - im in third year of college. The damn college wont pay me thought.

And what are you doing writing a bloody paper - your on JSA - go find a job.

Your only problem mediocrity is that your to damn lazy to do job experience work and not get paid. People like you are what’s wrong with Ireland. Your deluded imagination seems to think that you one day will be successful – that’s never going to happen.

We see the news and all we hear about is about this countries state of finance, in 2008 2.1 billion was spent on Job Seekers Benefit alone.

You also realise that if a welfare officer where to find you out – that your payments would be cut.

oscarBravo

Let's not get personal, folks.

Mediocrity

douglashyde wrote: »

Believe it or not - im in third year of college. The damn college wont pay me thought.

And what are you doing writing a bloody paper - your on JSA - go find a job.

Your only problem mediocrity is that your to damn lazy to do job experience work and not get paid. People like you are what’s wrong with Ireland. Your deluded imagination seems to think that you one day will be successful – that’s never going to happen.

We see the news and all we hear about is about this countries state of finance, in 2008 2.1 billion was spent on Job Seekers Benefit alone.

You also realise that if a welfare officer where to find you out – that your payments would be cut.

I have a job. Do you? And I don't need someone studying for a degree in "Marketing, Innovation and Technology" in one of the world's lesser-known institutions to give me lessons on life.

You never know, when you finally earn your academic hood, you might be lucky enough to walk into a job that pays you €204 per week minus bus fare. I thought younger people aspired to greater things. But then again, they're probably too busy looking for the latest hits to upload onto their iPods or modifying their Facebook status to worry about things like the "race to the bottom" and the erosion of PAYE workers' terms and conditions.

Mediocrity

jmayo wrote: »

In fact one of the state technology agencies (can't remember the name Eolas maybe) ran a program where they helped companies employ engineers, etc by helping pay the 10,000 punds a year salary.
At time a normal starting salary might be around 12,000/13,000.

What's the "nominal" starting salary for an engineer at the moment do you think?

€200 a week is very different from an engineer's salary times 10/12 or 10/13.

west101

oscarBravo wrote: »

What should the government have done instead?

I think a 196 euro a week grant towards the persons wages for six months would be a better solution.

Scofflaw

Mediocrity wrote: »

I have a job. Do you? And I don't need someone studying for a degree in "Marketing, Innovation and Technology" in one of the world's lesser-known institutions to give me lessons on life.

You never know, when you finally earn your academic hood, you might be lucky enough to walk into a job that pays you €204 per week minus bus fare. I thought younger people aspired to greater things. But then again, they're probably too busy looking for the latest hits to upload onto their iPods or modifying their Facebook status to worry about things like the "race to the bottom" and the erosion of PAYE workers' terms and conditions.

I'm going to suggest you take some of your own advice here, and I'll add some extra - be polite to other posters, stop personalising the discussion, don't dismiss everyone else's point of view.

Or you can keep it up and be banned, which will free up what is presumably work time for you - a win-win, really.

moderately,
Scofflaw

witchgirl26

I honestly don't see the problem with this. My cousin in America is currently working as an intern for free. He doesn't do full time as they tried to take on a lot of interns so he does half week there & works the other half in his old college. Means he'll have the experience required to get a proper job when he finishes.

Plus on this you can get paid your JSA so what are you losing out on? In fact you could end up with a job at the end of it if you actually bother yourself to put in a bit of effort. I know a few people who are out of work who would love the opportunity to do something with their days that might help them get a job.

Oh and I don't believe the whole "if you start as a pushover..." stuff. Everyone has to start somewhere in work & for most of us that's the bottom of the ladder & you work your way up.