The need for a RADICAL political party?

imme

Are our existing political parties too centrist.
Does Ireland need a radical political party.

Shea O'Meara

I'd settle for an honest competent one.

Permabear

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ChocolateSauce

Perhaps we could use a fascist party like the other European nations have? You know, to balance out the left ones

nesf

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Perhaps we could use a fascist party like the other European nations have? You know, to balance out the left ones

We've had a couple, they've just never managed to get a TD or Councillor elected. :pac:

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not radical in a pejorative sense, but I was thinking radical in a political sense, in the best traditions of the French and British political sense, historically. Are our existing 'big' political parties too centrist, too comfortable with status quo.

Permabear

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southsiderosie

donegalfella wrote: »

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But are they really viable? One thing I find interesting about Irish politics is that there really isn't a coherent left. Labour seems more like the Democrats in the US (but even less organized) rather than a socialist party in a continental European sense. And there doesn't seem to be much policy difference between the parties at all. Labour is closer to the unions, but that's about it...and FF reps were the original architects of social partnership, no?

I wouldn't say that Ireland needs a radical left, but it would be interesting if there was actually an electorally viable leftist party with clearly defined policies vis-a-vis FF and FG.

Permabear

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View

donegalfella wrote: »

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That's largely as a result of the voting systems used. The US and UK FPTP seems to encourage "Punch-n-Judy" politics with their being a tendency to despise anyone who would be willing to accept a compromise solutions. That said, it should be pointed out that the parties there are in many ways "coalitions" in their own rights rather than distinct parties/groups that you can vote for based on their policies.

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not looking to restrict this thread DF. I wanted to start the thread as broad as poss so as not to restrict debate/ideas.

From one angle, the soundbite of Michael McDowell that "The PD's need to be radical or redundant" springs to mind in terms of radical politics. Well McDowell and some of his faithful would have seen the PD's as radical. Some others wouldn't have seen them as radical.

From an historical point of analysis the term 'radical' is more associated with anti-monarchy and/or left-wing politics and the push for a more liberal society.

Permabear

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imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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Liberalism is not antithetical to left-wing politics imo.

Maybe you're going all the way down the spectrum by bringing communism into the discussion this early.


The PD's were established in 1986, they advocated radical policies at the time. Prior to their establishment Garrett Fitzgerald of FG set about his 'constitutional crusade' to address some of the social issues you raised. Were the PD's following Fitzgerald in their radicalism in regard to social issues?

Liam Byrne

donegalfella wrote: »

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I wouldn't view any of that as "amiss".

"A fairer Ireland" should be something that EVERYONE wants. And if people are being crucified and can barely survive because of FF taxing us to pay the bankers, then tax cuts are required.

Why ANYONE would have ANY extremist policies is beyond me (unless, of course, those policies suit their own vested interests and give them more at the expense of everyone else, in which case it's understandable but unacceptable).

Permabear

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Permabear

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imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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my goodness DF, you're all over this thread:D lol
I'll hang off for a while DF and see if anyone else has any other ideas. I'll be back later.

Shea O'Meara

donegalfella wrote: »

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Surely you're confusing Communism and Socialism with the dictatorships which use the names but don't follow the philosophy?
In their true form you can't get more liberal.

Permabear

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Lockstep

southsiderosie wrote: »

But are they really viable? One thing I find interesting about Irish politics is that there really isn't a coherent left. Labour seems more like the Democrats in the US (but even less organized) rather than a socialist party in a continental European sense. And there doesn't seem to be much policy difference between the parties at all. Labour is closer to the unions, but that's about it...and FF reps were the original architects of social partnership, no?

I wouldn't say that Ireland needs a radical left, but it would be interesting if there was actually an electorally viable leftist party with clearly defined policies vis-a-vis FF and FG.

Completely disagree there Rosie, Labour are far more left wing than the Democrats, and even more so than most Socialist (centre-left) European politics.
Would also disagree that the three main parties are the same. There's pretty clear differences between FF/FG/Labour (look at the banking crisis for example)

I really dislike the way so many Irish people claim that the three parties are the same.( Not directed at you here, speaking generally) THere are clear differences and it seems many Irish people are too lazy to look for the differences and rather content themselves with "Ah sure they're all the same"

donegalfella wrote: »

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You are being somewhat misleading here DF: Labour were pushing for tax cuts for middle income earners in the 2007 election (which I'm assuming is the tax cut you are referring to)
LIkewise, FG are with the EPP in Europe, so a moderate welfare state combined with generally liberal economic policies is perfectly compatible with Christian Democracy.

Would also disagree that Labour/Conservative are really at odds (New Labour for example) and hell, look how many Rockefeller Republicans/Blue Dog Democrats there are.

Shea O'Meara

donegalfella wrote: »

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I wish I knew...I'd move there tomorrow. My point is any right wing person or party can claim to be for the people, a socialist even communist. That doesn't make it so. Didn't Bertie announce he was a Socialist? You can't therefore use Ahern as a template for Socialism just because he labeled himself as such.

Nice to see it's business as usual in the health department:
http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/17169236/

Permabear

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Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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If you just listen to soundbites you'll never hear any difference. This applies to pretty much every party around the globe.
Every party claims that its policies will kickstart the economy, give everyone access to medical care, provide the best education etc etc.
The differences only occur if you look at the policies.

donegalfella wrote: »

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You are misquoting them there; decrease the standard rate of tax (by a hefty 2%) along with reform the public sector, scrapping colocation in the health service, caps on tax breaks for jobs outside of principle occupations, moving managerial staff from the overmanaged HSE to the undermanaged education sector (where admin work is done by seniority, not managerial expertise)
etc.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Our welfare state is pretty moderate mate in fairness; nothing as gargantuan as France, Belgium or Norway. Children's allowance is stopped at a younger age, there's no fully tax funded public healthcare system,
The problem with the Irish spending bill is it's efficiency and mass of bloated things like Quangos. Spending =/= the services provided.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Seriously? The Democrats are fairly right wing by European standards (look at the problems they're going through within their own party just to bring about mandated private insurance, let alone socialised medicine)

There's a big difference between polarisation and actual policy differences (if you are arguing that American personalities matter more then I fully agree, stands to reason really given the amount they spend on elections, making candidate personality more important)
Then again, we're saved from having as much of a mess of smear campaigns and gutter politics.

Red_Marauder

No we don't need more radical political parties.
We need to start getting real on the economy. I'm sick of walking down the street and seeing advertisements for one of those many far-left, "people before profit", "government are protecting bankers" posters that rely on simplistic, childlike arguments to further their radicalism.

We do not need radicalism. We need a centrist government with a level head for international business and we as a society need to get a grip on things. We need a banking system, and we can't let our banks fail.

Radicals are always complaining about Tracey from Donaghmede not getting anything from the bailout. Well, she has to sit tight, because if the banks fail then Tracey from Donaghmede might as well stay in bed and not bother going to work tomorrow because her employer won't be able to stay in business and help her pay her mortgage.

Has anyone else completely given up on opening their mouths in taxis? I'm really tired of that dead radicalist rhetoric, "where's my NAMA?" The point of NAMA is to get the banks back operating and investing (albeit abroad and in international bonds, that is inevitable) and then to help get SMEs and other businesses back on their feet.
It's a trickle down effect to people like Tracey in Donaghmede. But no, she doesn't get a NAMA.

I would be totally opposed to any form of radicalism right now where it has any possible impact upon our future economic growth. We need to respond to international demands in the short term, so that we can thing about 'radicalism' in terms of social change in the longterm.

But for now, radicalism is not going to get us anywhere. When you're in a hole, you don't keep digging.

evercloserunion

southsiderosie wrote: »

But are they really viable? One thing I find interesting about Irish politics is that there really isn't a coherent left. Labour seems more like the Democrats in the US (but even less organized) rather than a socialist party in a continental European sense. And there doesn't seem to be much policy difference between the parties at all. Labour is closer to the unions, but that's about it...and FF reps were the original architects of social partnership, no?

I wouldn't say that Ireland needs a radical left, but it would be interesting if there was actually an electorally viable leftist party with clearly defined policies vis-a-vis FF and FG.

The problem is that the unions have been cosy with FF, leaving Labour out in the cold. Now that social partnership has ended the unions might come crawling back to Labour but Labour (rightfully) have reservations about it and could go the way of New Labour. That said, Labour have gone left in the past while, pushing nationalisation of the banks and defending public sector workers. But it's not just about taking left-wing positions on certain policy issues, they also have to look at transforming themselves into big contenders for government.

The big problem IMO is populism. there is no left-right divide, partially because of the civil war (thankfully becoming a thing of the past) and partially because every party will promise you whatever you want to get your vote. FF were of course the masters at this until it blew up in their faces. Now both the opposition parties are promising to take us away from that kind of thing but both of them are guilty of it themselves, I think FG moreso. If there is to be a shift away from populism and towards a more stable ideological left-right divide it has to be structural. No point in two of the three main parties taking coherent ideological positions if the third party is going to promise everything to everyone. But then the uncomfortable truth is that there probably isn't room for three main parties in Irish politics.

Re the need for a far left party, we have that in the Socialist Party. In reality there are loads of them out there but the SP are the most popular and most serious of them. Joe Higgins will probably get back into the Dáil next GE, and a couple of others like Clare Daly have a good chance too. But parliamentary politics have never been the major pre-occupation of radical parties like the SP. Their presence is felt on the ground through marches, protests, public meetings etc. Of course you could definitely argue that they have to step up their game in that area.

As for a far right party, you can forget it. Ireland is not racist enough for that, our experience with immigration has been very positive and I think there is still a collective memory of the old days of mass emigration when the US and other countries took us in.

View

donegalfella wrote: »

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That is what the FF/PD governments did over the last number of years. And both the PDs in their hey-day and FF more recently are paid up members of the Liberals at EU level.

donegalfella wrote: »

If we had a moderate welfare state, we'd be doing quite well. In fact we have a gargantuan welfare state that consumes two-thirds of total tax revenue. There's nothing "moderate" about it.

From memory, the state spends roughly a quarter of its budget on each of: Health, Education, Social Welfare and "Everything else". Which of these would you classify as being "Welfare State" (whether moderate or otherwise)?

Wheely

Thread seems to have gone off-topic. For my money's worth, I'd agree with Rosie. And on my understanding of the word radical, no Ireland does not need a radical party.

imme

Wheely wrote: »

Thread seems to have gone off-topic. For my money's worth, I'd agree with Rosie. And on my understanding of the word radical, no Ireland does not need a radical party.

Yes and no, re the off topic point. It's the nature of some threads that they go off topic I guess.
Maybe has to do with the posters as well, I don't know.

bob50

evercloserunion wrote: »

The problem is that the unions have been cosy with FF, leaving Labour out in the cold. Now that social partnership has ended the unions might come crawling back to Labour but Labour (rightfully) have reservations about it and could go the way of New Labour. That said, Labour have gone left in the past while, pushing nationalisation of the banks and defending public sector workers. But it's not just about taking left-wing positions on certain policy issues, they also have to look at transforming themselves into big contenders for government.

The big problem IMO is populism. there is no left-right divide, partially because of the civil war (thankfully becoming a thing of the past) and partially because every party will promise you whatever you want to get your vote. FF were of course the masters at this until it blew up in their faces. Now both the opposition parties are promising to take us away from that kind of thing but both of them are guilty of it themselves, I think FG moreso. If there is to be a shift away from populism and towards a more stable ideological left-right divide it has to be structural. No point in two of the three main parties taking coherent ideological positions if the third party is going to promise everything to everyone. But then the uncomfortable truth is that there probably isn't room for three main parties in Irish politics.

Re the need for a far left party, we have that in the Socialist Party. In reality there are loads of them out there but the SP are the most popular and most serious of them. Joe Higgins will probably get back into the Dáil next GE, and a couple of others like Clare Daly have a good chance too. But parliamentary politics have never been the major pre-occupation of radical parties like the SP. Their presence is felt on the ground through marches, protests, public meetings etc. Of course you could definitely argue that they have to step up their game in that area.

As for a far right party, you can forget it. Ireland is not racist enough for that, our experience with immigration has been very positive and I think there is still a collective memory of the old days of mass emigration when the US and other countries took us in.

Cant agree with you that we dont need a far right party IMO we certailey do I think irish people are really fed fed up with the immigrants that we presently have both working and if not claiming dole etc. this country can ill afford to pay for these immigrants even if they are from the enlarged eu

I know the media here would not like to hear this, with their liberal views. But there is an opening for a right wing party now to get established in this country. like other european countries there right wing parties are getting stronger ie Germany France

I know its not pc to say this but i for one would vote for a right wing candiate as immgration needs to be controlled in this country

View

Wheely wrote: »

Thread seems to have gone off-topic. For my money's worth, I'd agree with Rosie. And on my understanding of the word radical, no Ireland does not need a radical party.

To my mind, it largely depends on what is meant by "radical". Offhand, I'd normally think of it in the sense of radically different policies. That though raises the question of what those radically different policies would be...

Alternatively, we could be "radical" and change our politicans by substituting Tweedledum for Tweedledee, altough this is more or less what we do currently.

Then again, we could use it in the original sense from the French revolution where the post-revolution parliament was divided between the conservatives (who favoured the king and his traditional powers), the liberals (who favoured liberal change in the direction of modern style monarchies) and the radicals (who favoured getting rid of the monarchy and most of the traditional systems). There the radicals gained the upperhand and let the guillotine take over. That sort of radicalism might be quite popular here given the whole NAMA debacle.

Wheely

View wrote: »

To my mind, it largely depends on what is meant by "radical". Offhand, I'd normally think of it in the sense of radically different policies. That though raises the question of what those radically different policies would be...

Alternatively, we could be "radical" and change our politicans by substituting Tweedledum for Tweedledee, altough this is more or less what we do currently.

Then again, we could use it in the original sense from the French revolution where the post-revolution parliament was divided between the conservatives (who favoured the king and his traditional powers), the liberals (who favoured liberal change in the direction of modern style monarchies) and the radicals (who favoured getting rid of the monarchy and most of the traditional systems). There the radicals gained the upperhand and let the guillotine take over. That sort of radicalism might be quite popular here given the whole NAMA debacle.

I dunno. I would be in favour of some changes to the system. But if you're equating radical with something akin to replacing the monarchy with a republic, then again no. The system needs to change, yes but nothing as radical as that. So still no, I wouldn't be in favour of a radical party in Ireland.

Noobsaibot21

Dont know if they qualify as radical but a party in Britain called UKIP seem to have some good ideas in the vault. Their leader pretty much 'pwns' (for want of a better term) Barrosso and Brown in the european parliament regularly with honest to goodness truth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-owgAjsoNk

Not trying to resurrect the Lisbon debate but it's more about how he comes across. He was also on Question time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0VULvPSFzM - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7LTRKixUfk - Part 2

Not sure how their party stands on all aspects but they do have some good points regarding the EU and the majority of policies and ideas i've heard from them look sound. Admitedly, they are UKIP uploaded vids but still.

Spiritoftheseventies

Every party wants to have influence. And to have influence they have to compromise. Look at the greens.

gandalf

No what we need are one of the existing parties to make some hard decisions and start to govern the country like its a country and not based on parish pump county council politics. Until that happens any new party will just follow the mould that is already set. We the public have a role to play in this as well, people need to realise that a TD is not someone you contact to get potholes filled or for the local GAA team to get new changing rooms. We all basically need to mature politically. Unfortunately the cynic in me says we still aren't at this point.

Eliot Rosewater

Over a third of Irelands budget goes on direct social welfare spending. It has gotten completely out of hand. There is a core group of people who will oppose welfare cuts no matter what, even if those cuts are in line with the cost of living. Welfare increased werent instituted for this reason: they were brought in to "buy" elections. Yet cutting welfare rates is hurting the "vulnerable". The person who first said that word should get it trademarked, he'd make a mint.

Welfare has gotten out of control in this country and has parted ways with what welfare should be. Welfare should be a very very limited safety net. Because the principal problem is that once you introduce a safety net people will automatically jump on it. Welfare policy erodes (and has eroded) personal responsibility. In Ireland this has been quite serious from what I can see.

Example: Like it or not, the Irish government rewards certain parenting decisions. The decision to have a child is rewarded with cash. The decision to split with your partner is rewarded with cash. Once you give people a reward for something, doing that something becomes a whole lot easier. If the last factor in someones decision to have a child is government money, I would not have confidence in that parent.

I think we need to reevaluate our social welfare spending. I think that a lot of payments can be cut. I think most can be reduced. How about we introduce some personal responsibility?

(And before you respond, don't forget about private charities. If we cut welfare there will still be safety nets.)

Thats what I call radical!

southsiderosie

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Completely disagree there Rosie, Labour are far more left wing than the Democrats, and even more so than most Socialist (centre-left) European politics.
Would also disagree that the three main parties are the same. There's pretty clear differences between FF/FG/Labour (look at the banking crisis for example)

I really dislike the way so many Irish people claim that the three parties are the same.( Not directed at you here, speaking generally) THere are clear differences and it seems many Irish people are too lazy to look for the differences and rather content themselves with "Ah sure they're all the same"

I think perhaps what makes Ireland different from other European countries is that there was never really a mass movement of disenfranchised urban workers + exploited rural labor to form a leftist/hard left movement at the turn of the last century. At that time, despite labor strife in Dublin and Belfast, the biggest question in Irish politics was independence. In countries like Spain and Italy, peasant/worker movements were growing and quite powerful, and these groups - especially in Spain - still play a role in national politics today. There are stark differences between the PSOE and the PP for example, and when the Spanish change governments, there are significant policy shifts, especially around church-state relations and government spending. Whereas Labour has always been the third wheel in Irish politics, so it's harder to draw clear policy boundaries, since they have never been able to form their own government.

I think this is why I don't see Ireland as having a "left" in the same way as other European countries do - Irish Labour is always the bridesmaid, never the bride. Because of this, I think it is hard to differentiate Labour from FF or FG a lot of the time: by forming coalition governments, it seems like their agenda gets muddied or swamped by virtue of being the smaller party. And despite their policy positions, which are quite progressive, they are politically constrained by their electoral weakness, so actual political outcomes in Ireland seem well to the right of most other European countries.

Anyway, that's my two cents from an outsider's perspective.

Truthrevolution

We do need to establish a radical political movement, both in this country and internationally that will stand for the same principals.In this new age of globalism left and right wing are just opposite sides of the same coin.What we need is a an organisation that will stand for peoples rights,freedoms and a fair and just society.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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O I think we were all victims of whatever successs they had.

southsiderosie

Truthrevolution wrote: »

We do need to establish a radical political movement, both in this country and internationally that will stand for the same principals.In this new age of globalism left and right wing are just opposite sides of the same coin.What we need is a an organisation that will stand for peoples rights,freedoms and a fair and just society.

OK, what exactly would that look like? I'm being serious.

Truthrevolution

southsiderosie wrote: »

OK, what exactly would that look like? I'm being serious.

Heres one particular movement which will give you a fair idea of what im talking about http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/

djpbarry

Noobsaibot21 wrote: »

Dont know if they qualify as radical but a party in Britain called UKIP seem to have some good ideas in the vault.
...
Not sure how their party stands on all aspects but they do have some good points regarding the EU...

The UKIP’s “EU policy” entails campaigning for the UK’s withdrawal – I’m not sure that constitutes a policy as such. But anyway, I’m not sure that could be considered a good idea, particularly from Ireland’s perspective.

trapsagenius

An extreme left or right party in Ireland will never win a large number of seats in the Dail for the simple reason we use a PR system of voting .All parties need to appeal to people across the political spectrum which keeps them from straying too far from the centre.

irishh_bob

trapsagenius wrote: »

An extreme left or right party in Ireland will never win a large number of seats in the Dail for the simple reason we use a PR system of voting .All parties need to appeal to people across the political spectrum which keeps them from straying too far from the centre.

an extreme right or left party is unlikely to ever gain much traction because irish people are overwhelmingly centrist and moderete , we are a deeply unidealogical nation

evercloserunion

southsiderosie wrote: »

OK, what exactly would that look like? I'm being serious.

Some nutjobs in Russia pulled this out of their arses between vodka sessions.

Lockstep

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think perhaps what makes Ireland different from other European countries is that there was never really a mass movement of disenfranchised urban workers + exploited rural labor to form a leftist/hard left movement at the turn of the last century. At that time, despite labor strife in Dublin and Belfast, the biggest question in Irish politics was independence. In countries like Spain and Italy, peasant/worker movements were growing and quite powerful, and these groups - especially in Spain - still play a role in national politics today. There are stark differences between the PSOE and the PP for example, and when the Spanish change governments, there are significant policy shifts, especially around church-state relations and government spending. Whereas Labour has always been the third wheel in Irish politics, so it's harder to draw clear policy boundaries, since they have never been able to form their own government.

You're wrong there Rosie, we had such problems with exploited rural workers that agrarian violence was extremely common (gangs like Captain Moonlight and the Whiteboys), Labour itself has it's roots in the disenfranchised urban workers and initially got support from rural areas (especially from landless laborers) before Fianna Fáil embarked on their social programs; their moral conservatism appealed to the rural people a lot more so Labour lost sway.

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think this is why I don't see Ireland as having a "left" in the same way as other European countries do - Irish Labour is always the bridesmaid, never the bride. Because of this, I think it is hard to differentiate Labour from FF or FG a lot of the time: by forming coalition governments, it seems like their agenda gets muddied or swamped by virtue of being the smaller party. And despite their policy positions, which are quite progressive, they are politically constrained by their electoral weakness, so actual political outcomes in Ireland seem well to the right of most other European countries.Anyway, that's my two cents from an outsider's perspective.

The same can be said of pretty much any state with multile parties (aside from First Past the Post); Belgium, Denmark the Netherlands etc ; none the parties can form majority governments and are required to form coalitions with single party governments extremely rare.

Amhran Nua

Red_Marauder wrote: »

We need a banking system, and we can't let our banks fail.

The two concepts are not interdependent.

DogmaticLefty

Lol. More internet pie-in-the-sky stuff about new political parties.

FFers must laugh smugly and joke in the bar about these kind of threads.

Amhran Nua

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Lol. More internet pie-in-the-sky stuff about new political parties.

I was chatting with Garath O'Callaghan on the breakfast show last week, among others, so its not just the internet.

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

FFers must laugh smugly and joke in the bar about these kind of threads.

First they laugh at you, and all that.

gandalf

The only type of party or movement thats needed is one for radical reform.

Ideas like the following.

• Abolish the Seanad
• Reduce the number of TD's to 100
• Limit TD's to 3 terms
• Bring in a list system of voting so people only vote for parties and policies
• Make it illegal for TD's to get involved in local/planning/ or personal representations to the Public Service
• Allow the government appoint ministers from outside the political spectrum with expertise in Finance or Foreign affairs for example when needed
• Reduce and Merge County Councils
• Make Councillors full time and give them more powers
• Streamline and Centralise Administrative Functions with in the public service
• Bring proper modern work practices in place in the Public Service

That will do for a start.

Amhran Nua

deadtiger wrote: »

The only type of party or movement thats needed is one for radical reform.

Ideas like the following.

• Abolish the Seanad
• Reduce the number of TD's to 100
• Limit TD's to 3 terms
• Bring in a list system of voting so people only vote for parties and policies
• Make it illegal for TD's to get involved in local/planning/ or personal representations to the Public Service
• Allow the government appoint ministers from outside the political spectrum with expertise in Finance or Foreign affairs for example when needed
• Reduce and Merge County Councils
• Make Councillors full time and give them more powers
• Streamline and Centralise Administrative Functions with in the public service
• Bring proper modern work practices in place in the Public Service

That will do for a start.

All already in our policies, except the bringing in of ministers from outside the political spectrum, that one hit a wall for various reasons.

gandalf

Amhran Nua wrote: »

All already in our policies, except the bringing in of ministers from outside the political spectrum, that one hit a wall for various reasons.

Well the facility is there to allow them be brought from the Seanad, with the Seanad gone this would just be the next logical step.

Its something that happens in US politics and it gives the government and the country the option to bring in expertise that is outside the political spectrum in times of crisis like we have now.