Turning of the Sovereign Seal this Thursday!

Cróga

This Thursday the 21st at 12 noon the annual Turning of the Sovereign Seal takes place inside the Mansion House as has been done for the past 90 years which will be performed by Billy McGuire who is the current President of the IRB (Irish Republican Brotherhood) and current sovereign seal holder.

The sovereign seal (12 string harp) is the true emblem of the Sovereign Republic. The turning of the seal is what grants licence from “We the People” to the government to act and perform as we desire and to be renewed every year.

Hope to see ya there!

Here's a powerpoint presentation of his:
http://mwhiggins.com/IrishHistory.html (best viewed in Intenet Explorer)

Newspaper articles of interest:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/tradition-has-many-strings-to-its-bow-126072.html
http://www.limerickleader.ie/features/Askeatons-Billy-reasserts-sovereignty.4900561.jp
http://www.savetara.com/statements/012108_sovereign.html

Tir na Saor Radio also interviewed Billy and audio podcast can be found here: http://www.tnsradio.com/interview-with-billy-mcguire

Enjoy

freefromgov

The mansion house have confirmed by telephone that this is happening at 12 noon on the 21st which is this Thursday ..
There was an article a while back in the Hotpress magazine about it ... I believe the band Greenday were on the cover.

dermot_sheehan

Moved to History

(assuming it's the appropriate forum)

freefromgov

gabhain7 wrote: »

Moved to History

(assuming it's the appropriate forum)

Well it hasn't happened yet ? ? ? ? I would prefer to have this thread restored please Thank you.
Also it's of major significance to the legal world more so than anything as they have had no delegated, legislative, Authority from the sovereign people living on the land .... but perhaps the moderators here prefer to hide this from the leagle eagles on this forum for fear that they may fully realize exactly what it means ......

freefromgov

I know you see this Moderators...... Please return this thread to its original location .... Surely you don't think that the respondents in the legal section are of so delicate a nature that they will fail to rebut any presumption that I could provide ? ? ?....lol


Funny though .... normally one does not expect to get Trolled by the Moderators on a forum ....

Rebelheart

freefromgov wrote: »

Well it hasn't happened yet ? ? ? ? I would prefer to have this thread restored please Thank you.
Also it's of major significance to the legal world more so than anything as they have had no delegated, legislative, Authority from the sovereign people living on the land .... but perhaps the moderators here prefer to hide this from the leagle eagles on this forum for fear that they may fully realize exactly what it means ......

First, 'major significance to the legal world' doesn't sound like a very measured and legalistic response to this tradition. Second, while it is true that 'legal' (or even "leagle") and 'eagle' do rhyme, the average member of the legal profession is probably on the booze at this moment or planning his/her emigration to another common law jurisdiction. Third, developing a conspiracy theory about this is really silly, particularly the inference that, of all people in Ireland, wig-wearing English title-using members of the legal profession would be defenders of Irish independence and sovereignty.

freefromgov

Rebelheart wrote: »

First, 'major significance to the legal world' doesn't sound like a very measured and legalistic response to this tradition. Second, while it is true that 'legal' (or even "leagle") and 'eagle' do rhyme, the average member of the legal profession is probably on the booze at this moment or planning his/her emigration to another common law jurisdiction. Third, developing a conspiracy theory about this is really silly, particularly the inference that, of all people in Ireland, wig-wearing English title-using members of the legal profession would be defenders of Irish independence and sovereignty.

Really ... !!!! well I'm glad to hear it they should be ... so why then are the courts operating with a 13 string Harp above their head ? ? ? and not the 12 string as was assigned for that purpose by Cathal Brugha and the boyos ? ? ? Oh and just so you know this is not just a tradition ... it's where the Chief justice should be to get his licence from the people renewed .....

freefromgov

Rebelheart wrote: »

First, 'major significance to the legal world' doesn't sound like a very measured and legalistic response to this tradition. Second, while it is true that 'legal' (or even "leagle") and 'eagle' do rhyme, the average member of the legal profession is probably on the booze at this moment or planning his/her emigration to another common law jurisdiction. Third, developing a conspiracy theory about this is really silly, particularly the inference that, of all people in Ireland, wig-wearing English title-using members of the legal profession would be defenders of Irish independence and sovereignty.

I'll tell you what Rebel ( not much of a rebel if you don't know where or how and by what means the Republic came into being) tell me what's the difference between a republic and a democracy ? ? ? in your own words ? ? ?
and then tell me what you live in ......

freefromgov

Rebelheart wrote: »

First, 'major significance to the legal world' doesn't sound like a very measured and legalistic response to this tradition. Second, while it is true that 'legal' (or even "leagle") and 'eagle' do rhyme, the average member of the legal profession is probably on the booze at this moment or planning his/her emigration to another common law jurisdiction. Third, developing a conspiracy theory about this is really silly, particularly the inference that, of all people in Ireland, wig-wearing English title-using members of the legal profession would be defenders of Irish independence and sovereignty.

Tell me something "Rebelheart" are you telling me that you knew about this event that happens every year in the Mansion house .... if so how long have you known and where did you find out about it ?

Victor

freefromgov wrote: »

it's where the Chief justice should be to get his licence from the people renewed .....

Do you mean the Chief Justice of Ireland or the Irish Republic?

freefromgov

Tonight on TNSradio 20/01/2010 We interview Billy Maguire again the holder of the Sovereign Seal of the People of Ireland. The Ceremony is tomorrow at 12 noon in the Mansion House, Dublin. There have been many interesting developments in the backround and hopefully they will be discussed tonight...... tune in guys should be interesting ..... Peace

www.tnsradio.com

brianthebard

freefromgov, please don't 'call out' other posters. There is no moderator trolling, gabhain decided this topic was better suited to history and I'm happy to stand by that decision. If you want a discussion on the topic of the seal in the legal discussion forum, then frame it in such a way as to be applicable to the forum. Mod.

InTheTrees

Cróga wrote: »

The turning of the seal is what grants licence from “We the People” to the government to act and perform as we desire and to be renewed every year.

I dont see any mention in the constitution?

freefromgov

brianthebard wrote: »

freefromgov, please don't 'call out' other posters. There is no moderator trolling, gabhain decided this topic was better suited to history and I'm happy to stand by that decision. If you want a discussion on the topic of the seal in the legal discussion forum, then frame it in such a way as to be applicable to the forum. Mod.

Well if you had any comprehension of the actual matter, you would realize it was placed in the correct forum the original poster has a good comprehension, so that's why they placed it there.

freefromgov

So ok let me get this straight ... Gabhain7 (moderator) Victor ( moderator) and Biranthebard (moderator) so besides me ,rebelheart and inthetrees the rest of the comments are from Moderators .... but I'm not expected to think this (moved thread) is being trolled by the mods .... lol right ok sure I'll but that for a dollar ...lol :rolleyes:

freefromgov

InTheTrees wrote: »

I dont see any mention in the constitution?

Why would you expect to find it there ? Do you find the proclamation of independence in there ? .... but it happened right ... surely you don't dispute that ?
Oh BTW are you talking about the "blue book" constitutuion or the literal translation of the consititution that you can download and read from www.wethepeople.ie I think you'll be supprised... as even the blue book points to the Irish definition as being the primary one ... check out article 41.1.1. for example spot the difference ? between Invincible and impriscriptable
interesting Huh ?
Peace

brianthebard

freefromgov banned for three days for off topic posting, abuse, insults, ignoring in thread warning and questioning mod in thread. Mod.

CDfm

interesting topic - i have never heard of the sovereign seal before.

its a ritual and seems to be a private thing and has no real significance

tradition but sovereignty is from the people and not a 12 string harp

guiness have been using the harp for many years as a trademark

Simarillion

I'd never heard of it either! I'd like to know more, pity it was brought up by some crazy rant poster.

Victor

CDfm wrote: »

guiness have been using the harp for many years as a trademark

Different harp. All the state harps (some departments have stylised harps) point in one direction, while others point in the other direction.

Guinness http://www.guinness.com/en-ie/

time lord

This topic was covered by "The Gerry Ryan Show" a few years ago, as far as I remember each gov. dept. has a differant no. of string to their harp.
Legally I cant shed any light but i often think we lack a bit of pagentry as a nation, so beef up the occasion i say.

johnnyskeleton

Sounds like a pretty strange tradition. What does the president of the IRB have to do with national soverignty or, for that matter, why does he have the right to act on behalf of the irish people.

I agree that we lack the peagantry of the UK and it would be no harm to have some symbolic acknowledgement that the power comes from the people not the organs of the state. But at a time when more than 1 in 4 irish people don't support the current government, it seems like a completely hollow gesture.

By contrast, I read once that outside the sweedish parliament there is a specific plaza which can be used by protesters. Several times in sweeden's history people have protested here and had changes made, sometimes even toppling governments.

If this ceremony was a chance for people to go out and march on the streets and show their contempt for the current government and/or was a way to request the present to dissolve the dail, then it would be a worthy ceremony. As it is, it just sounds like Gormenghast for nationalists.

brianthebard

Can't remember if I read this in Patrick Maume's Long Gestation or Hobsbawm's Nations and Nationalism but the lack of ceremony in Irish state life is/was a reaction to the obvious pomp of the British system. Makes sense to me, and tbh I don't see how it would improve politics to add that sort of thing in. But that's just me.

CDfm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Sounds like a pretty strange tradition. What does the president of the IRB have to do with national soverignty or, for that matter, why does he have the right to act on behalf of the irish people.

i didnt even think the IRB still existed

By contrast, I read once that outside the sweedish parliament there is a specific plaza which can be used by protesters. Several times in sweeden's history people have protested here and had changes made, sometimes even toppling government

The Isle Of Man has a day called Tynwald Day where people with grievences can petition the Tynwald directly on their issues.

Swedens government had an interesting gestation and was brought together by a guy King Gustav II Adolf and involved a consultative process between different parts of society royal, nobility,mercantile and peasants. So it possibly evolved from that.

Cant see myself what this guy in his grandfathers felt hat has to do with anything.

oceanclub

This tradition sounds bizarre for a number of reasons:

1. Who are the current IRB? According to Wikipedia, the body was disbanded in 1922. Google turns up no mention of a latter day one apart from this article. How is the body constituted? Is it a government body or independent? If the seal belongs to the government, then how can a bunch of self-appointed people turn up every year to hold a ritual with it?

2. Isn't it ironic to have what appears to be a hereditary leadership for a republican body?

3. The idea that a republican body should appear to be holding part in hokey mystic rituals is also a bit weird.

P.

CDfm

brianthebard wrote: »

Can't remember if I read this in Patrick Maume's Long Gestation or Hobsbawm's Nations and Nationalism but the lack of ceremony in Irish state life is/was a reaction to the obvious pomp of the British system. Makes sense to me, and tbh I don't see how it would improve politics to add that sort of thing in. But that's just me.

In fact it was a tradition to ridicule British Pomp with the Cuirt Filiochta etc.

I am becoming obsessed with the green felt hat that his grandfather owned. That part of the story is just surreal.

Rebelheart

time lord wrote: »

but i often think we lack a bit of pagentry as a nation, so beef up the occasion i say.

And thank our non-existent God for that. I almost vomited when I saw a picture - portrait - of Mary McAleese and her family about two years ago: our very own royal family.

I was initially deeply impressed by that woman's humility when she refused to attend the Dublin Society - Royal Dublin Society as the British royalist cult renamed it in the 19th century - when she was first elected and instead went off to the Gaeltacht to brush up on her Irish leaving behind a livid and utterly inconsolable Kevin Myers at this snub (yes, remember that article!). When Nora Owen implied McAleese was not Irish, I rushed to her defence and made a point of voting in that election. But then in that portrait she comes out with this neo-colonial version of the British royal family. Horrendous.

God forbid we become like those Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - renamed Windsor in 1917 - inbreds, and that entire class of pompous nouveau riche upstarts. Mere merchants, as a matter of historical record. Huh.

Keep it real. Don't be getting notions about yourself. One of the best and most admirable things about Irish culture is this down-to-earth character, a consciousness that we are all not far away from the same socio-economic roots and status. Humility is refreshing. It is much more human, too.

Those deeply insecure muppets with notions about themselves really inspire me to remind them of where they come from. Always, and consistently so. Again: keep it real.

/rant over.

Rebelheart

oceanclub wrote: »

According to Wikipedia, the body was disbanded in 1922.

Without any evidence, I find it hard to believe that all members of the IRB agreed to such a disbandment considering, AFAIR, a majority of IRA volunteers were against the treaty in that same year. It could be true, but given the nature of the people who were members of the IRB, I find it unlikely especially in the context of the continuing existence of a large anti-Treaty IRA grouping.

Cróga

Well here it is for those that missed it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG2_J6POkPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzppYzAQYK0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9iMmjVlfNo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzGn9wQ0Hms

InTheTrees

Rebelheart wrote: »

Without any evidence, I find it hard to believe that all members of the IRB agreed to such a disbandment considering, AFAIR, a majority of IRA volunteers were against the treaty in that same year. It could be true, but given the nature of the people who were members of the IRB, I find it unlikely especially in the context of the continuing existence of a large anti-Treaty IRA grouping.

Not that I have anything against Maguire's. In fact I've never met a Maguire I didnt get along with, but... It seems that its more about the Maguires and their old felt hat than it is about the IRB, and maybe they're just using the IRB connection to give the whole charade a little more legitimacy?

time lord

Rebelheart wrote: »

And thank our non-existent God for that. I almost vomited when I saw a picture - portrait - of Mary McAleese and her family about two years ago: our very own royal family.

I was initially deeply impressed by that woman's humility when she refused to attend the Dublin Society - Royal Dublin Society as the British royalist cult renamed it in the 19th century - when she was first elected and instead went off to the Gaeltacht to brush up on her Irish leaving behind a livid and utterly inconsolable Kevin Myers at this snub (yes, remember that article!). When Nora Owen implied McAleese was not Irish, I rushed to her defence and made a point of voting in that election. But then in that portrait she comes out with this neo-colonial version of the British royal family. Horrendous.

God forbid we become like those Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - renamed Windsor in 1917 - inbreds, and that entire class of pompous nouveau riche upstarts. Mere merchants, as a matter of historical record. Huh.

Keep it real. Don't be getting notions about yourself. One of the best and most admirable things about Irish culture is this down-to-earth character, a consciousness that we are all not far away from the same socio-economic roots and status. Humility is refreshing. It is much more human, too.

Those deeply insecure muppets with notions about themselves really inspire me to remind them of where they come from. Always, and consistently so. Again: keep it real.

/rant over.

Pagentry is not linked to the hip with our neighbours in the U.K. A child standing on top of a box with the no. one written on it receiving their community games medal is pagentry. The G.A.A. players parading around Croke Park is pagentry, an open top bus welcoming home the victorious team is pagentry.

God forbid we would all live in your grey dull vision of Ireland afraid to assert itself. Keeping it real, national confidence and pagentry are linked at the hip and a bit more would be all the better.

Victor

Rebelheart wrote: »

And thank our non-existent God for that. I almost vomited when I saw a picture - portrait - of Mary McAleese and her family about two years ago: our very own royal family.

My parent's living room is full of family portraits. Whats the problem?

Rebelheart wrote: »

Without any evidence, I find it hard to believe that all members of the IRB agreed to such a disbandment considering, AFAIR, a majority of IRA volunteers were against the treaty in that same year. It could be true, but given the nature of the people who were members of the IRB, I find it unlikely especially in the context of the continuing existence of a large anti-Treaty IRA grouping.

Surely an irrelevant point. It was disbanded - nobody resurrected it.

Rebelheart

Victor wrote: »

My parent's living room is full of family portraits. Whats the problem?

Mary McAleese is not part of my family, but it is curious that you are equating publicly-released photos of the head of this state and her family with your own family photos. Her photos were taken specifically for public distribution.

She, and she alone, was elected to a civic office of this state, this rēs pūblica. Her family was not. In a monarchy where blood decides such things, the denizens might not appreciate the difference and indeed be familiar with the entire family of a head of state being displayed to the world. What McAleese and her advisors attempted to do was project that cultural world, made popular by the British tabloids especially, upon a political and constitutional landscape where it has no legitimacy or tradition.

Victor

Rebelheart wrote: »

publicly-released photos

You said nothing of this and I would think its down to context. My parents do have a picture of the president with my sister.

If there is a state dinner in the Arás is Martin McAlesse to be excluded (from a meal in his own home?).

Maybe there is (modest) public demand for such photos.

Of all the photos I've seen of presidents, taoisigh and ministers their families tend to take the backstage. Certainly we tend to be more up to date with who Britney is riding thatn Bertie (although one can never be sure).

CDfm

the video says that without this the courts etc would not be legal.

thats nuts and untrue as sovereignty etc derives from the people

Rebelheart

CDfm wrote: »

thats nuts and untrue as sovereignty etc derives from the people

Theoretically, it may be true that sovereignty rests with the people. However, in reality sovereignty is distributed within the Irish system and indeed some of it rests outside it, such as in the European parliament and Commission where all EU member states have in effect pooled their sovereignty.

CDfm

Rebelheart wrote: »

Theoretically, it may be true that sovereignty rests with the people. However, in reality sovereignty is distributed within the Irish system and indeed some of it rests outside it, such as in the European parliament and Commission where all EU member states have in effect pooled their sovereignty.

there is no theory about it -it does.

joining the EU was done after it was approved by referendum/plebsicate so sovereignty is with the people and derived from the people.

it does not rest with a harp or felt hat from a self appointed retired pub owner from co kerry.

the idea that this ceremony has any significance or legality at all is a fallacy -in the same way organisations like the 32 county sovereignty bunch have no legal standing or mandate in the state.

So I think its right to ask who he is and who he represents and why he is up to this in the Mansion House?

Rebelheart

CDfm wrote: »

there is no theory about it -it does.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. If sovereignty still rested entirely with the people then every single piece of legislation which granted power to an organisation, for instance, would need their direct consent. It doesn't because the people have granted some sovereignty to the Oireachtas, some to the President, some to the European Union and, arguably, some to judges who partake in judicial review.

The people still maintain some sovereignty but to say they maintain full sovereignty does not reflect the diffusion in the system since 1916, or 1919 or 1937. It is a really nice idea, but very impracticable.

CDfm

Hey but its derived from the people who have agreed to that form of government. Back to the Green Felt Hat RH -from where does the hat derive its authority.I am challenging its legitamacy.

CDfm

Victor wrote: »

If there is a state dinner in the Arás is Martin McAlesse to be excluded (from a meal in his own home?
.

Its not his home - its the Presidents residence whoever that may be.

However, don't official functions normally take place in the State Apartments at Dublin Castle.????

InTheTrees

CDfm wrote: »

Back to the Green Felt Hat RH -from where does the hat derive its authority.I am challenging its legitamacy.

If anything happens to the Hat we're screwed.

CDfm

InTheTrees wrote: »

If anything happens to the Hat we're screwed.

Truth is stranger than fiction

http://www.classiccrimefiction.com/bush-felt-hat.htm

Victor

CDfm wrote: »

However, don't official functions normally take place in the State Apartments at Dublin Castle.????

It really depends on the event and the size of the event.

If the president was to have dinner with a government official, an ambassador or a head of state / government it wouldn't be in the State Apartments.

freefromgov

For any that are interested I interviewed Billy Maguire on www.tnsradio twice I'll post the links below.
http://www.tnsradio.com/interview-with-billy-mcguire

and

http://www.tnsradio.com/the-irish-people-are-sovereign

I have been researching this matter for quite some time now.

I will compile all of the information with references etc. when done.

kinkyknees

oceanclub wrote: »

This tradition sounds bizarre for a number of reasons:

1. Who are the current IRB? According to Wikipedia, the body was disbanded in 1922. Google turns up no mention of a latter day one apart from this article. How is the body constituted? Is it a government body or independent? If the seal belongs to the government, then how can a bunch of self-appointed people turn up every year to hold a ritual with it?

2. Isn't it ironic to have what appears to be a hereditary leadership for a republican body?

3. The idea that a republican body should appear to be holding part in hokey mystic rituals is also a bit weird.

P.

Some good questions there. Pity you don't seem to be getting an answer. I attended the ceremony myself - more out of curiosity than anything else - and I was amazed to see that Maguire character plucking one of his buddies from the crowd to elevate him to the position of Chief Justice. It's been bugging me ever since.

Who ever gave him the right to confer such titles upon people? He's the president of what it now more or less known as a fraternal organization and what, he's telling us that without him and his hokus pokus ritual we somehow lose our sovereignty? Snap out of it.

Another thing, a portion of our 'group' took off to the freemasonry grand lodge on Molesworth street straight after this dubious ritual. From one fraternity to another. What the hell has any of this got to do with the people of Ireland?

I want to know who or what gives this Maguire family the right to pull of these ritualistic practices on behalf of the people. I also want to know why it's supposedly obligatory for the taoisach, president and mayor of Dublin to be present at this event. Why the hell would they be answerable to this Maguire family?

CDfm

kinkyknees wrote: »

I attended the ceremony myself - more out of curiosity than anything else - and I was amazed to see that Maguire character plucking one of his buddies from the crowd to elevate him to the position of Chief Justice. I

Who ever gave him the right to confer such titles upon people? He's the president of what it now more or less known as a fraternal organization and what, he's telling us that without him and his hokus pokus ritual we somehow lose our sovereignty? Snap out of it.

I also want to know why it's supposedly obligatory for the taoisach, president and mayor of Dublin to be present at this event. Why the hell would they be answerable to this Maguire family?

Great post - why. I wonder what the Taoiseachs office would say?

InTheTrees

kinkyknees wrote: »

Some good questions there. Pity you don't seem to be getting an answer. I attended the ceremony myself - more out of curiosity than anything else - and I was amazed to see that Maguire character plucking one of his buddies from the crowd to elevate him to the position of Chief Justice. It's been bugging me ever since.

Who ever gave him the right to confer such titles upon people? He's the president of what it now more or less known as a fraternal organization and what, he's telling us that without him and his hokus pokus ritual we somehow lose our sovereignty? Snap out of it.

Another thing, a portion of our 'group' took off to the freemasonry grand lodge on Molesworth street straight after this dubious ritual. From one fraternity to another. What the hell has any of this got to do with the people of Ireland?

I want to know who or what gives this Maguire family the right to pull of these ritualistic practices on behalf of the people. I also want to know why it's supposedly obligatory for the taoisach, president and mayor of Dublin to be present at this event. Why the hell would they be answerable to this Maguire family?

Exactly. This is just a Maguire junket and not much to do with the IRB, after all its not as though the presidency of the IRB is a hereditary title given to a Maguire is it? So what happens after Billy dies? Who does it go to next?

CDfm

InTheTrees wrote: »

Exactly. This is just a Maguire junket and not much to do with the IRB, after all its not as though the presidency of the IRB is a hereditary title given to a Maguire is it? So what happens after Billy dies? Who does it go to next?

Nobody seems to know.

The Chieftains of Irelands sucessors have a form or recognition.

Rebelheart

kinkyknees wrote: »

Some good questions there. Pity you don't seem to be getting an answer. I attended the ceremony myself - more out of curiosity than anything else - and I was amazed to see that Maguire character plucking one of his buddies from the crowd to elevate him to the position of Chief Justice. It's been bugging me ever since.

Who ever gave him the right to confer such titles upon people? He's the president of what it now more or less known as a fraternal organization and what, he's telling us that without him and his hokus pokus ritual we somehow lose our sovereignty? Snap out of it.

Another thing, a portion of our 'group' took off to the freemasonry grand lodge on Molesworth street straight after this dubious ritual. From one fraternity to another. What the hell has any of this got to do with the people of Ireland?

I want to know who or what gives this Maguire family the right to pull of these ritualistic practices on behalf of the people. I also want to know why it's supposedly obligatory for the taoisach, president and mayor of Dublin to be present at this event. Why the hell would they be answerable to this Maguire family?

In fairness, his name is Billy - hardly a name which would bring the ultimate horror of a return to rule by those Irish rather than the current rule by the, to paraphrase the poet, "new English named the Irish'. But then, of course, we all know the family name of the slithery little scumbag who was giving information to the English from the ship which carried the earls on the famous Flight of the Earls in 1607.

It's a bit 'Oisín i ndiaidh na bhFiann' for Liam Mac Uidhir to be suddenly concerned about 'sovereignty' following that massive bit of treachery by the family name. Who says history is not useful

Saor_agus_Gra

oceanclub wrote: »

This tradition sounds bizarre for a number of reasons:

1. Who are the current IRB? According to Wikipedia, the body was disbanded in 1922. Google turns up no mention of a latter day one apart from this article. How is the body constituted? Is it a government body or independent? If the seal belongs to the government, then how can a bunch of self-appointed people turn up every year to hold a ritual with it?

2. Isn't it ironic to have what appears to be a hereditary leadership for a republican body?

3. The idea that a republican body should appear to be holding part in hokey mystic rituals is also a bit weird.

P.

I think a lot of folks, are a bit confused on this matter. I have always been into history and I also attended the ceremony, and when you really look at it, it makes so much sense.

I'll try answer some of these questions the best I can...

Firstly, the current IRB I do not know specifically who these people are. However, consider it was member's of the IRB that formed the first ever Dáil, so theoretically that should make all our current member of the Dáil members of the IRB. When you consider that the IRB was only created in our fight against oppression, it is only natural to assume that once that oppression pulled out that the ideals would remain where as the formality of the organisation would fade. So the IRB declared Independence on behalf of our whole nation, they were then formally recognised through the 32 county election, and become the first Dáil. So it would have began as Independent and then went on to become and set up the State as we know it. Also the seal does not belong to the Government, it belongs to the People. The seal is symbolic of our Sovereignty. So the Seal validates the Government, Courts, and all licensing as they derive their power from the people. It needs to be turned once a year and must be accepted by the Government. The power is derived from the people. Thus the turning of the seal is symbolic of us, the people passing our power and permission on to our government to enact as our government. Just as we have to power to give it, we also have to power to take it away.

Secondly, this wasn't always a hereditory title as Billy himself mentions in the first TnS interview... The head of the IRB was appointed by means of an election. However, I think after the death of Collins it was decided that it was too high risk to nominate and elect a leader, drawing attention to it and then ending up with a dead leader, so it was passed down through the McGuire family.

Thirdly, you may think it weird that a republian body would hold a "hokey mystic ritual"... But think about this logically for a second, and really consider the meaning of the word Sovereignty. (Also keep in mind that Collins had said that most of the problems after the signing of the Treaty arose over the meaning of the word 'sovereignty'.)

Ok, post oppression we were Gaelic people under Brehon Law with our own customs etc.. The consept of sovereignty did not exist, we were just all free, minding our own business, harming no one and in the instance that a disbute arose we had Brehon Law to resolve our issues. So then oppression and we became subjects to the crown of England. Now under the crown, the Queen is Sovereign. She is the only one who is Sovereign and everyone else is subject to the crown, including us at one time. So in order for us to be fully independent of that crown, we must first be sovereign too. Sovereignty raises us to the level of freedom and on equal status with the Crown, as individuals and as a nation. If we are not Soveirgn then we are subjects... In light of that, I think it would be weird for a republican body not to invoke Sovereignty. As it would not be much good being a republic if you are not sovereign and still subject to the crown,no?

oceanclub

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

However, consider it was member's of the IRB that formed the first ever Dáil

No, it was the elected representatives of the people who formed the first Dail. If it's true they were all members of the IRB - do you have a reference - that's neither here nor there, any more than they were all white.

so theoretically that should make all our current member of the Dáil members of the IRB.

Sorry, that's no more a logical conclusion than "all members of the first Dail were white, that should make all the current ones white".

Also the seal does not belong to the Government, it belongs to the People. The seal is symbolic of our Sovereignty. So the Seal validates the Government, Courts, and all licensing as they derive their power from the people.

OK, I agree with this bit. In which case, why is the ceremony the responsibility of an unelected hereditary body over which "the People" have absolutely no say?

It needs to be turned once a year and must be accepted by the Government.

Sorry, but this is where you get into mystical bunkum. The seal no more needs to be turned than it needs holy water sprinkled on it.

As I say, you keep mentioning "the People" and using this as a reason to support an unelected secret(*) hereditary body. Does not compute.

(*)Would it kill them to have even a web page?

P.