IAA Air traffic controller's industrial action Wednesday

Steyr

IAA ATC industrial action, looks like the skies over Ireland will be quiet from 1400 to 1800 tomorrow !

IAA statement followed by the ATC Union Impact's statement.

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Update from the Irish Aviation Authority


Tuesday 19th January 2010: The Irish Aviation Authority, (IAA) has been formally notified by IMPACT of industrial action to commence tomorrow, Wednesday 20th January 2010. IMPACT is the Union representing Air Traffic Controllers.

The industrial action scheduled by IMPACT will involve work stoppages between 14.00 and 18.00 in Dublin, Cork and Shannon Airports and will disrupt services at all airports. .

The IAA apologises to all members of the travelling public and to the airlines for the disruption this action by Controllers will cause. Passengers are advised to contact their airline for updates.

The IAA calls on IMPACT to desist from this action, to defer the 6% pay claim, to pay a pension contribution like everyone else in the public service, and to return to normal working.

"We had no option this morning but to suspend 12 Air Traffic Controllers," says Liam Kavanagh, Director of Human Resources, IAA. "These Controllers have stopped doing work on a number of ongoing projects - work they have already been doing for the last two years. We cannot function effectively if Controllers refuse to carry out ongoing work."

IMPACT has instructed Controllers not to co-operate with a number of ongoing technology projects unless the Authority pays for such changes. Ongoing change is a core part of the IAA's work as the airlines demand greater efficiency and the European commission has challenged all Air Traffic service providers to become more efficient and embrace change.

"We cannot function if we have to pay people every time we upgrade a system," Liam Kavanagh says. "The real issue here is money. Air traffic controllers want two things:

They want a 6% pay increase agreed in the last partnership agreement - despite the fact that the whole world has been turned on its head since that agreement, the industry is in trouble, and volumes of work are decreasing;
They do not want to pay anything towards their pensions - even though all other public service staff now pay the pension levy. The Controllers make no contribution to their own pensions. The Authority, meanwhile, pays a contribution of 30.5% of salary for every member of staff.
We want them to be reasonable and defer discussion of this 6% increase. We have told them we will be happy to review it in 2012. And we want them to make a contribution to their own excellent pensions, in line with everyone else in the public sector. We have not cut salaries. We are not cutting jobs."

"These are very well paid staff," Kavanagh continues. "Yes, they do highly important work - and accordingly we pay them very well. A Controller will typically earn a basic salary of over €112,000. When you include PRSI and the pension contribution of 30.5% of salary that the IAA pays, this gives a total package of almost €160,000. When you contrast that with other public sector staff - teachers, nurses, gardai, all of whom are paying a pension levy, these are very well paid staff, with a gold-plated defined-benefits pension scheme. "

Increases paid to Controllers in the last ten years have also been incredibly generous, according to Kavanagh.

"Since 1998, people whose pay is linked to the consumer price index would have gone up by 38%. National Wage agreements have given people 55%. Air traffic controllers, however, have gone up by 92% in that same time. And they now want an additional 6%.

Paying this 6% would cost the IAA an additional € 6 million each year. This cost would have to be passed to the airlines who fund the IAA - the Authority receives no State funding.

"These Controllers work a 35 hour week," says Kavanagh. "They are entitled to a break of 30 minutes for every two hours worked. They work five days and then get three days off. They work 182 days a year, they have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays, in addition to 10 public holidays"

The airlines cannot afford to pay any increases in this climate.

"The aviation industry is on its knees at the moment," says Kavanagh. "Airlines facing tough times - including Aer Lingus, Cityjet, Aer Arann - cannot afford to take on additional costs. Meeting the 6% pay would cost the Authority an additional € 6 million per year. This would have to be passed on in its entirety to the airlines since we in the IAA receive no funding from Government."

Ends

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From the Impact website:

Date: Tuesday 19 January, 2010
News Summary:
The Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) has begun suspending air traffic controllers from duty in Dublin and Shannon Airports this morning following the controllers’ refusal to engage in a number of disputed new work practices.
News Content:
It is understood that five air traffic controllers have been suspended in Shannon Airport, while 10 have been suspended in Dublin. It is expected that the IAA will make further suspensions today and tomorrow.

The issues of the new work practices had been under discussion at the Labour Relations Commission (LRC). Both parties agreed that the matter be referred to the Labour Court at an LRC conciliation conference last Thursday (14th January).

Members of the union working at air traffic control voted, by a majority of 99%, not to cooperate with the new work practices until agreement could be reached. Pending agreement, air traffic controllers are observing an instruction of non-cooperation by their trade union, IMPACT.

IMPACT says that members will respond to the suspensions with industrial action. The initial action will be a work stoppage as controllers attend mandatory union meetings. These will occur between 2pm and 6pm tomorrow (Wednesday 20th January) in Dublin and Shannon airports. A similar stoppage will take place in Cork Airport tomorrow between 4pm and 6pm.

IMPACT official Michael Landers said the action is in direct response to the staff suspensions. He said that the core issues have been referred to the Labour Court, and that the IAA should not be suspending staff while the process is ongoing

Su Campu

Without knowing the actual ins and outs of the dispute, it seems like the controllers are the ones at fault in this. It'll be a right mess tomorrow not just for Irish flights but also the transatlantics. Will be interesting to watch RadarVirtuel.com to see if there's anything up there at all!

Will this affect normal VFR traffic from Weston? I presume the Weston controllers aren't part of it, though will they go out in support I wonder. I'm due to fly tomorrow afternoon

Steyr

I wonder can the Air Corps take over at EINN/EIDW/EICK ? I know they do Operate Radar.

wobblyknees

Can someone please explain to me how the controllers/impact are in any way whatsoever right here? Seriously, are they for real, or am I completely stupid?

Reg'stoy

If only we had an Irish Ronald Regan who would fire the lot of them.

probe

It goes to show that some public servants are living on a different planet. Probably something to do with the distance between them and the end-user consumer - the further removed they are, the more they demand, and the more they are still living in the celtic tiger dreamworld.

These pigs are on high salaries, with massive pension plans, and have job security. At current investment returns, it would take at least €15 million in capital invested in the market to fund each of these strikers' pension plans in AA security rated investments (ie the same rating as gov.ie has). Meanwhile the country is in a very difficult financial position, and this action will leave its credibility further eroded by this failure to provide service to the travelling public tomorrow.

Ronald Regan was a softie ..... he only fired the 11,345 air traffic controllers when they refused to work in 1981. These people deserve to be shot at dawn, one by one, unless they agree to work as normal!

The ATC operations of IAA need to be outsourced. Invite Skyguide and similar to bid for the business.

highlydebased

Steyr wrote: »

I wonder can the Air Corps take over at EINN/EIDW/EICK ? I know they do Operate Radar.

They operate BAL Military Radar. Its very different to civilian service. Therefore even if they were to provide tower and an approach you still have several Shannon Control sectors after that plus several Dublin positions. So I'd have severe doubts about it happening...


Regarding transatlantics, European/UK stuff should be able to avoid Shannon's airspace- Up north into Scottish or south into Brest. The NATs tommorow probably wont reflect the strike, and there will still be delays if they decide to use these routes as there will be too many acfts going for too few routes...

skelliser

i remember applying to atc after my leaving cert, needless to say i was unsuccessfull! anyway the salary back then was no were near 112,000! whens the next recruitment phase!

Sean9015

skelliser wrote: »

i remember applying to atc after my leaving cert, needless to say i was unsuccessfull! anyway the salary back then was no were near 112,000! whens the next recruitment phase!

Very shortly, if the current rate of suspensions, hopefully followed by dismissals if they continue to act like idiots, continues.

As someone without work following the government cutting spending, I'll offer to do it for, say €60k + a Taxsaver ticket

ixoy

No sympathy clearly but can anyone tell me if adapting to these new technologies is actually difficult at all? Would it lead to increased efficiencies?

From someone working in IT, a rapidly moving market of technology where it's sink or swim, I'm constantly flabbergasted by the resistance to having to adapt to changes in work practices and techologies.

skelliser

Sean9015 wrote: »

Very shortly, if the current rate of suspensions, hopefully followed by dismissals if they continue to act like idiots, continues.

As someone without work following the government cutting spending, I'll offer to do it for, say €60k + a Taxsaver ticket

Il join ya!

Honestly tho, i know its a stressful job but i cant believe how much they are now paid, does anyone have any figures on ATC;s in europe or similar countries

JohnK

Anyone have an idea if this is likely to affect flights on Thursday?

ixoy wrote: »

From someone working in IT, a rapidly moving market of technology where it's sink or swim, I'm constantly flabbergasted by the resistance to having to adapt to changes in work practices and techologies.

Like yourself I'm in IT too and I can never understand this crap about wanting more money for using a bit of different software/hardware

lucernarian

I saw a press release from Ryanair from the previous dispute back in '08. They are certainly not white knights in shining armour, standing up to the public good. Though one snippet of information struck me as noteworthy.

It said that they were demanding an effective overtime allowance of €1,200 per day. Demanding extra pay for something that's entirely voluntary?!

Needless to say I was less than impressed with such a shower. They're quite deluded if they seriously expect Towards 2016 to be implemented with all that's happened to this country and air travel too.

Edit: Good question Steyr.

Steyr

What are the new technologies anyway that they are objecting to?

Bluehair

Steyr wrote: »

What are the new technologies anyway that they are objecting to?

New fangled urinals in the loo, very swish and require top notch aim and concentration. They're all using the sit-down jacks in objection for which there simply isn't sufficient time in the 30 minute break every two hours.

Seemingly Impact are requesting new staff trained in 'unzipping, holding & shaking and rezipping' to avoid the already overworked controllers having to undertake these duties themselves. The time saved for the controller results in efficiencies gained on the job and hence the well deserved pay increase.

The union has stated that they had originally also requested special 'pull-em down, wipe, pull-em up again' staff to be trained for the toilets in the tower but felt that given the current economic condition they would be prepared to undertake that role themselves and do their bit for the economy....

Davidth88

Guys is there an ATC on the board ? I would love to hear the other side of this .. what exactly is this new technology ? Come on defend your position please

I heard the IMPACT guy on the radio yesterday saying that ( and I paraphrase ) it would increase the workload on the controllers because it required them to use different routings etc , didn't really understand it TBH .

Then the guy from IAA came on , he maintained this had nothing to do with technology , bascially the controllers were using this as way to try to force through a 6% pay increase and proctection from any pension levy.

I imagine the truth is somewhere down the middle

WHAT IS IT ANYONE ??

My initial reaction was the same as reg'stoy , get Reagan in , he basically sacked all the US ATC because they went on stike

FlutterinBantam

What annoys me about this is that the Union can hold the country to ransom and cost the airlines thousands of euro and then walk away.

Is there an inquiry after these events and if all parties are not in compliance with procedures surely there should be legal responsibilities??

Strange how FR haven't been working on that approach.


On the surface it appears to me to be a bolshy action from extremely well paid and secure and pensionable people.

andy_g

well im currently waiting to get on a flight back in to dub we are now delayed till 1225 local time in madrid i have a feelin i aint getting home today :-( right now to the iberia information desk hehe

mwrf

Will be interesting to hear the airwaves go quiet at 2pm!

Eh, Sorry lads, we'll be back in a few hours, sit tight.

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=eidw

yhwh

Found this link on pprune. Some might find it interesting,

http://irishatcfactfile.wordpress.com/

LadyTBolt

This is nothing short of a selfish dispute and the unions should be ashamed of themselves.
Their answer to everything is industrial action which today has done nothing to help their cause but instead has painfully disrupted the daily lives of innocent people who need to travel.
Thousands of people who needed to board a plane to go home to their families or to go on holiday or to go to a business meeting have had their travel plans thrashed because of reasons unrelating to them. Those innocent people have been punished for the glory of the unions and their demands on their workers to strike for ridiculous conditions.
I have no sympathy for one single IAA member who took part in todays industrial action. I do not care what their issues are. They made their problems the Irish publics problems and international air carriers problems.

Shame on you IAA strikers and shame on you unions.

diverdriver

I was somewhat in the middle and I feel some of the comments in this thread are harsh. Too harsh in fact. But then I read that blog: http://irishatcfactfile.wordpress.com/

I'm sorry if that was meant to convince me that the controllers were being hard done by. Then it has had the opposite effect. Clearly the IAA are playing hardball and seriously taking the p. But I'm distinctly unimpressed with the comments in the blog. It's a bit of an own goal.

He comments 'Why is the IAA doing this' Well, my friend if you don't know by now then I suggest you start reading the newspapers and watching the news.

I'm disappointed to be honest. I was fully prepared to take the side of the ATC. But they've miscalculated badly.

FidesEtRobur

There are 2,300 controllers in Spain, and in 2008, they earned an average of 338,000 euros for 1600 hours of work. Some 713 controllers earned between 340,000€ and 540,000€. A few even reaching 900,000€ due to extra hours worked.

skelliser

thats some paycheck!

Honestly tho people have a right to pay and conditions

lucernarian

And people have a right to stand up to unjustifiable claims for pay and conditions.

Nor should unions have the right to go on strike if employees have simply been told to go home with full pay while the issues are discussed in the proper forums.

Tabnabs

Here's what the US pay their guys

Air traffic controllers earn relatively high pay and have good benefits. Median annual wages of air traffic controllers in May 2008 were $111,870. The middle 50 percent earned between $71,050 and $143,780. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $45,020, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $161,010. The average annual salary, excluding overtime earnings, for air traffic controllers in the Federal Government—which employs 90 percent of all controllers—was $109,218 in March 2009.

The Air Traffic Control pay system classifies each air traffic facility into one of eight levels with corresponding pay bands. Under this pay system, controllers' salaries are determined by the rating of the facility. Higher ratings usually mean higher controller salaries and greater demands on the controller's judgment, skill, and decision-making ability.

Depending on length of service, air traffic controllers receive 13 to 26 days of paid vacation and 13 days of paid sick leave each year, in addition to life insurance and health benefits. Controllers also can retire at an earlier age and with fewer years of service than other Federal employees. Air traffic controllers are eligible to retire at age 50 with 20 years of service as an active air traffic controller or after 25 years of active service at any age. There is a mandatory retirement age of 56 for controllers who manage air traffic. However, Federal law provides for exemptions to the mandatory age of 56, up to age 61 in certain cases, but controllers must have exceptional skills and experience. Earnings and benefits for controllers working in contract towers or flight service stations may vary. Many air traffic controllers hold union membership, primarily with the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos108.htm

Looks like our guys are paid the going rate?

A Country Voice

I'd love to know where the greedy so and so's had their picket line, if they had one.
I'd love to pass that picket, in fact I'd love to pass any picket to be honest. How can anyone be on strike when theres nearly half a million people out of work?? They should be ashamed of themselves. Be glad you have a well paid secure job with a good pension atcs.

A Country Voice

I've half a mind to head to the Dublin Airport picket and pelt them with tomatoes.

W*nkers :mad::mad::mad:

jesus_thats_gre

So what are the chances of disruptions tomorrow? Have a flight at midday to Gatwick with Ryanair..

I could deal with the flight being cancelled but I have prepaid for parking and train tickets in UK already.

A Country Voice

Deleted User wrote: »

I've half a mind to head to the Dublin Airport picket and pelt them with tomatoes.

W*nkers :mad::mad::mad:

I'll head for shannon, dublin would be a bit of a drive for me. Although, theres probably no pickets. They're probably gone to Newry shoppin.


A Country Voice

Dacian

mwrf wrote: »

Will be interesting to hear the airwaves go quiet at 2pm!

Eh, Sorry lads, we'll be back in a few hours, sit tight.

"All flights inbound.....standby......."


I think the strike is wrong. They could ahve had industrial action before strike action. But I also think the suspension of staff in the middle of labour negotiations is a provocative (and calculated) move by the IAA.

I would be very interested to hear an independent assesment of the "new technology" mentioned. And the IAA parade of the salary and time off of ATC workers is an obvious attempt to prevent sympathy wards them.


(Can't believe they wanted payment bonus for working overtime 2 years ago. I have difficulty having any repect for any company/organisation that rely on O/T to keep their operation running,ensuring proper staffing levels is an essential part of 'management')

JohnK

Heard on the news that further action is likely but they'll make an announcement about it tomorrow. I'm off on holidays tomorrow so I just hope they wait until after 11:50am :eek:

jesus_thats_gre

JohnK wrote: »

Heard on the news that further action is likely but they'll make an announcement about it tomorrow. I'm off on holidays tomorrow so I just hope they wait until after 11:50am :eek:

haha 11:45 here

FlutterinBantam

Any company that operates 24/7/365 will always need overtime to supplement the periods where not much is happening.

I agree that built in major overtime is a non runner and any company that relies on this is as you say , not well run.

G O'Byrne-White head honcho of CityJet was extremely disparaging today on the strike.On Drivetime.

I would agree with him totally.

Steyr

Anybody see the man who should be running Ireland ( MOL ) on 6,1 News? He said sack the lot of them and if it comes to it let the Irish Air Corps take over, as has been mooted/questioned here by myself ( shameless i know ) and then told that they Operate Bal Military Radar by Neon-Circles so im sure they would have experience of Civillian Traffic especially where Baldonnel is situated juggling Mil Traffic around the Civil traffic, and im sure the IAC Military Radar Personnel are just as competent and as professional as their Civillian counterparts.

Also i know realistically its not a long term solution and 99.9% will not happen but it would probably be a good stop gap solution in the short term.

rugbyman

I dont think it likely that anyones voice on here will change things, but i seriously feel that no group should be able to paralyse a country and tens of thousands of people like this.

the current economic crisis will enable actions to be taken in many fields which otherwise would not have been done.

e.g nurses and medics never walk out, garda are bnned:barred from doing so.
any occupation which can cause such misery to thousands clearly needs a different calibre of human being .

the losses to the airlines is only money and may not be that severe, no fuel used, no landing charges paid etc, the absolute mucking up of thousands of peoples travel plans, on ward links, meetings etc is inexcusable

rugbyman

rugbyman

diverdriver wrote: »

I was somewhat in the middle and I feel some of the comments in this thread are harsh. Too harsh in fact. But then I read that blog: http://irishatcfactfile.wordpress.com/

I'm sorry if that was meant to convince me that the controllers were being hard done by. Then it has had the opposite effect. Clearly the IAA are playing hardball and seriously taking the p. But I'm distinctly unimpressed with the comments in the blog. It's a bit of an own goal.

He comments 'Why is the IAA doing this' Well, my friend if you don't know by now then I suggest you start reading the newspapers and watching the news.

I'm disappointed to be honest. I was fully prepared to take the side of the ATC. But they've miscalculated badly.

no hassle intended ,but could you give any reasons for your earlier being ready to support the stoppage?

regards Rugbyman

scudzilla

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100120/tts-uk-ireland-strike-ca02f96.html

"They are among the best-paid public servants in the country... Work 182 days a year, have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays," Kavanagh said, adding the top 10 percent earned between 170,000 euros (147,145 pounds) and 230,000 euros last year.

Are they for real?? Sack th elot of the strikers, i'll do the job for 130k

donkey balls

scudzilla wrote: »

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100120/tts-uk-ireland-strike-ca02f96.html

"They are among the best-paid public servants in the country... Work 182 days a year, have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays," Kavanagh said, adding the top 10 percent earned between 170,000 euros (147,145 pounds) and 230,000 euros last year.

Are they for real?? Sack th elot of the strikers, i'll do the job for 130k

the hours the ATCO do would be best international practise airline pilots fly 900hrs a year max some pilots fly less,the last thing you need is an ATC/Pilot tired&fatiqued those two occupations are not the only ones were your only allowed to work certain hours and here is a link for the IAA CEO salary and brother to an ex transport minister.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0509/1224246190751.html

Snickers Man

yhwh wrote: »

Found this link on pprune. Some might find it interesting,

http://irishatcfactfile.wordpress.com/

Whoa. It's clear from the post by one of the irate ATCOs that they DO earn well over 100k a year. And they're demanding an increase on that for what? To use a new computer??

UNDERWORKED, OVERPAID and BENEATH CONTEMPT!!!!

EchoIndia

scudzilla wrote: »

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100120/tts-uk-ireland-strike-ca02f96.html

"They are among the best-paid public servants in the country... Work 182 days a year, have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays," Kavanagh said, adding the top 10 percent earned between 170,000 euros (147,145 pounds) and 230,000 euros last year.

Are they for real?? Sack the lot of the strikers, i'll do the job for 130k

I have no connection with anyone in ATC, but anyone who thinks that you could realistically sack the country's air traffic controllers and just carry on as before is living in fantasy land. (That well-known liberal, George Hook, was also peddling this line on his programme this evening.)

The IAA website shows that there are 160 controllers at Shannon (this would include the high-level en route service), 97 at Dublin and 21 at Cork. Like it or not, these staff undergo rigorous training for their jobs and have to obtain ratings for specific roles (tower, approach, radar etc.) before being allowed to perform them. They cannot be replaced overnight or even in the short-to-medium term, which is what gives them the very muscle they exercised today. The objective has to be to ensure the continuation of the present level of service with the staff who are already trained to do the job. I have little doubt that, when reason prevails, the State's industrial relations machinery will deliver a solution that enables this to happen.

probe

EchoIndia wrote: »

I have no connection with anyone in ATC, but anyone who thinks that you could realistically sack the country's air traffic controllers and just carry on as before is living in fantasy land. (That well-known liberal, George Hook, was also peddling this line on his programme this evening.)

The IAA website shows that there are 160 controllers at Shannon (this would include the high-level en route service), 97 at Dublin and 21 at Cork. Like it or not, these staff undergo rigorous training for their jobs and have to obtain ratings for specific roles (tower, approach, radar etc.) before being allowed to perform them. They cannot be replaced overnight or even in the short-to-medium term, which is what gives them the very muscle they exercised today. The objective has to be to ensure the continuation of the present level of service with the staff who are already trained to do the job. I have little doubt that, when reason prevails, the State's industrial relations machinery will deliver a solution that enables this to happen.

Nonsense. It is a profitable business. Put the operation of ATC out to tender with a condition that existing IAA ATC staff can't be employed. Let the new operator recruit trained ATC staff internationally - they could also do some of the work from their existing base located in another country. Get Thales to train up the existing military ATC people to handle the system during the hiatus period.

These IAA ATC blackmailers need to be shown the door.

gerire

probe wrote: »

Nonsense. It is a profitable business. Put the operation of ATC out to tender with a condition that existing IAA ATC staff can't be employed. Let the new operator recruit trained ATC staff internationally - they could also do some of the work from their existing base located in another country. Get Thales to train up the existing military ATC people to handle the system during the hiatus period.

These IAA ATC blackmailers need to be shown the door.

Well thats a fantastic way to promote growth in the country, Add 300+ more to the live register and bring in foreigners to do our work thus leaving a further 300 on the register get a grip;

I applied for the ATC when it 1st came up 2.5 years ago since then I have joined another section of the public service where I am daily in the front line dealing with scumbags, fatal road traffic collisions, domestic rows etc, If I had have gotten ATC I would have been training on more than I currently receive on a weekly basis and since Jan of last year the weekly take home has dropped by 20% or over 100 a week, same bills still there and have to be paid.

To see the ATC out striking when everyone else in the public sector makes massive personal contributions to pensions, and then get slated in the media for not contributing enough to boot, and these lads making none and asking for a 6% pay increase is laughable. I don't know how they think they will get any public support at all, or maybe they just don't care or want public support, as was seen yesterday they can just hold the country to ransom at the drop of a hat, screw you and your holidays I want this and if I don't get it you can stay in Ireland or whatever country you were in.

I can see the side of the argument that if a colleague is suspended that there would be anger, but to come on the air saying it is not a pay issue is a load of billix. They will get what they want and soon too. If govt turn around and pass a motion that they must make these contributions they will just walk out again.

From my point of view all I can say is I envy their position, In the current climate when looking at me measly payslip every week now for them to be able to negotiate/put a gun to someones head is a nice power to have our representative body are not even allowed to negotiate anything as was seen back in December, our 2 representative bodies were sitting outside the room when all the other unions were having the meetings

Jammyc

I just think that no matter what side of the argument comments like this do nothing to help the situation and are purely ****-stirring to get some attention.

Ryanair Website wrote:

Ryanair, Ireland’s largest airline, today (19th Jan) called on the Dept of Transport to ensure that Ireland’s airports are kept open tomorrow, even if the overpaid, underworked semi-state employees of the IAA monopoly decide to go on strike at a time when traffic to/from Ireland is collapsing.

Its a rash and stupid thing to do to cast all ATCO's in this light. Taxi drivers earn quite a bit as far as I'm aware, but I didnt see any of this thrash being spouted about them when they striked.

donkey balls

Jammyc wrote: »

I just think that no matter what side of the argument comments like this do nothing to help the situation and are purely ****-stirring to get some attention.



Its a rash and stupid thing to do to cast all ATCO's in this light. Taxi drivers earn quite a bit as far as I'm aware, but I didnt see any of this thrash being spouted about them when they striked.

what to you expect from FR sure MOL was on six one news complaining about the ATCO calling them public servants(they work for a profitable semi state).
the likes of him dont care bottom line for these guys is profit at the expence of there employees&travelling public.
nothing was said about the CEO of the IAA and his salary&bonus
http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnewspaper%2F...246190751.html
Mr Brennan said he would be willing to pay the pension contribution himself. The authority made a contribution of €96,000 on behalf of Mr Brennan last year as part of a total remuneration of €412,000.
This compared with total pay in 2007 of €350,000. Mr Brennan's basic pay rose last year by 22 per cent to €253,000.
Mr Brennan recently agreed to take a 10 per cent cut in his basic pay. He told The Irish Times that his bonus this year would be about one-third less than the €63,000 he earned last year.
i didnt see the above article been bandied about in the media to me it was all spin by the IAA

electric69

Im just wondering if anyone is actually listening to the non stop garbage that Ryanair are comin out with? On thursday i was listening to their offical spokesperson on Today FM complaining how passenger numbers have been down 13% and 10% in the the last 2 years at dublin airport(thats 23% downturn folks!).
Then, the man who some people think should be running the country, came on the six one news and said that the amount of air travel was down 25%.now i could be wrong, but since when does a downturn in passenger numbers have a direct impact on air traffic?if every flight has 7 empty seats compared to 3 the previous year, do people really think that they are going to cancel the flight and cut down on frequency of flights just because of a few less pax?Sensationalism is a word that some people need to get their heads around...but then again...we are dealing with people who honestly think he should be running the country so maybe im just banging my head against the wall. Watch less tv and get factsbefore you start quoting someone.

donkey balls

electric69 wrote: »

Im just wondering if anyone is actually listening to the non stop garbage that Ryanair are comin out with? On thursday i was listening to their offical spokesperson on Today FM complaining how passenger numbers have been down 13% and 10% in the the last 2 years at dublin airport(thats 23% downturn folks!).
Then, the man who some people think should be running the country, came on the six one news and said that the amount of air travel was down 25%.now i could be wrong, but since when does a downturn in passenger numbers have a direct impact on air traffic?if every flight has 7 empty seats compared to 3 the previous year, do people really think that they are going to cancel the flight and cut down on frequency of flights just because of a few less pax?Sensationalism is a word that some people need to get their heads around...but then again...we are dealing with people who honestly think he should be running the country so maybe im just banging my head against the wall. Watch less tv and get factsbefore you start quoting someone.

+1 and what people forget/dont know is SNN ATC deal with traffic going to&from the US from europe

Su Campu

Having taken up an unhealthy obsession interest in Radarvirtuel.com over the last week or so, I can't help noticing that even at the busiest times for transatlantic traffic (mornings and afternoons), the number of aircraft actually in the EISN airspace at any one time is pretty low (maybe 5 or 6), so the extra workload involved in manual spacing (if that's their gripe?) is pretty tame. Isn't that why ATCOs are hand-picked and put through a rigorous training program, to give spacing to aircraft? Or is it supposed to be a fully automated system now, and that's why they're complaining, that they now have mental math to do. Ridiculous I know, but looking at it, it seems I could do it myself!

Here's the AIC describing the new system

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Published%20Files/Circ%20Files/2009/EI_AIC_2009_11_en.pdf

EchoIndia

Su Campu wrote: »

Having taken up an unhealthy obsession interest in Radarvirtuel.com over the last week or so, I can't help noticing that even at the busiest times for transatlantic traffic (mornings and afternoons), the number of aircraft actually in the EISN airspace at any one time is pretty low (maybe 5 or 6), so the extra workload involved in manual spacing (if that's their gripe?) is pretty tame.

Radarvirtuel displays only some aircraft and its coverage is dependent on where the contributors who feed data to it are based. AFAIK the Irish providers of information are in the Dublin area, so coverage to the south and west is going to be further limited to what can be picked up by a Dublin-based receiver. An airband radio would give you a fuller picture of activity levels. I would say the airspace is a lot busier than you suggest, especially at peak times. There is also a lot more north/south traffic, thus crossing the paths of the transatlantic traffic, than was once the case, and these aircraft tend to be climbing or descending as they pass through Irish airspace.

Su Campu

EchoIndia wrote: »

Radarvirtuel displays only some aircraft and its coverage is dependent on where the contributors who feed data to it are based. AFAIK the Irish providers of information are in the Dublin area, so coverage to the south and west is going to be further limited to what can be picked up by a Dublin-based receiver. An airband radio would give you a fuller picture of activity levels. I would say the airspace is a lot busier than you suggest, especially at peak times. There is also a lot more north/south traffic, thus crossing the paths of the transatlantic traffic, than was once the case, and these aircraft tend to be climbing or descending as they pass through Irish airspace.

Actually the Dublin receiver picks up all high-level aircraft as far away as off the west and southwest coasts, so although the airspace extends further than that, practically all of the west and eastbound Mode-S traffic are picked up at some stage. Plus I listen in on LiveATC so I get a better picture. You have to admit, Shannon UTA isn't exactly as crowded as places like southeastern England or New York, so I really don't see what the problem is.

EchoIndia

I don't work in ATC, so I won't claim to be an expert, nor would I try to guess what level of work is involved in respect of any particular flight. I note the image you pick is an evening one, at a time when T/A traffic would be approaching its lightest in any 24-hour period.

Furthermore traffic is not even distributed in time and geographical terms. As you know, the eastbound and westbound flows tend to be concentrated in particular time-bands of the day and also the NAT system tends to lead to multiple flights converging on a relatively small number of Oceanic entry points.

I have definitely seen aircraft (notably of Delta and Continental) overhead which are not visible on Radarvirtuel, so it does not give a complete picture. Also - though they are of course in the minority - very few executive jets and almost no military flights appear on it. Live ATC is linked into someone's scanner so it can only let you hear what is happening on a single high-level frequency at any given moment.