IMPACT are at it again...

zootroid

The Irish Aviation Authority is calling on air traffic controllers at Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports to call off industrial action planned for tomorrow afternoon.

The three airports will effectively shut down between 2pm and 6pm as controllers attend mandatory union meetings. This will also affect flights through Irish airspace.

The meetings have been called after 15 air traffic controllers were suspended for failing to co-operate with new technology.


Speaking on RTÉ's News At One IAA's Director of Human Resources Liam Kavanagh said the changes to technology are an essential upgrade for the aviation industry and called on the union to suspend action.

Since Christmas, IMPACT has been instructing controllers not to cooperate with the three new projects.

It has also been in dispute with the IAA over pay and pension issues.

However, the situation escalated when the IAA suspended without pay ten controllers in Dublin and five in Shannon, with further suspensions expected.

The Dublin Airport Authority has said that intending passengers should contact individual airlines regarding tomorrow's planned work stoppage by air traffic controllers.

The reforms have been discussed at the Labour Relations Commission and are being referred to the Labour Court.

IMPACT official Michael Landers said staff should not be suspended while negotiations were ongoing. He said workers are not opposed to new work practices, but rather the way in which they have been introduced.

The IAA said the real issue was the union seeking a 6% pay hike under Towards 2016, and the €234m pension deficit.

The company currently pays 30.5% of salary to the pension for staff, while staff contributes nothing.

The union is resisting IAA attempts to introduce contributions on a par with the public sector pension levy.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0119/air.html

Air traffic controllers, under instruction from their union, refuse to operate a new system (which could potentially put lives at risk). Management suspend the controllers who are refusing to carry out their job, and so the union calls a strike.

As always, they are looking for money. Even though Ireland is going through one of the worst economic crises since the foundation of the state, with inflation running at -5%, they think they should be entitled to a 6% pay rise. And as usual, it is the ordinary punter who must pay. The airports will charge the airlines more, and they will pass the costs onto the consumer. Neither is any mention given to the thousands of passengers who have to make alternative travel arrangements.

IMPACT have no shame.

douglashyde

This happened in the states decades ago -

they fired them and brought in the army.

They should make an example of these guys and some public sector workers.

Get back in your chair and do your damn job. - Your not the boss, so do as your bloodly told.

Idbatterim

Im just watching this on RTE now, unbelievable! Fair play to the IAA! Imagine in the private sector, a new system is being implemented and you tell your boss you want more to operate it! There has been a 13% reduction in flights into and out of Irish airports! how would they feel about getting their pay reduced, now that their workload is? Or how about productivity increases? well work harder if you pay us more! Say that to an employer in the private sector! hell have to words F*** & Off! If the PS wages arent going to be cut anymore, they should be frozen for a considerable length of time!

woodseb

the fact that they can't just schedule their meetings outside shift hours shows they don't give a flying f**k about the general public who rely on airlines (excuse the pun)

The_Honeybadger

zootroid wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0119/air.html

Air traffic controllers, under instruction from their union, refuse to operate a new system (which could potentially put lives at risk). Management suspend the controllers who are refusing to carry out their job, and so the union calls a strike.

As always, they are looking for money. Even though Ireland is going through one of the worst economic crises since the foundation of the state, with inflation running at -5%, they think they should be entitled to a 6% pay rise. And as usual, it is the ordinary punter who must pay. The airports will charge the airlines more, and they will pass the costs onto the consumer. Neither is any mention given to the thousands of passengers who have to make alternative travel arrangements.

IMPACT have no shame.

Hard to believe they could be so utterly selfish. Shame on them. There will be no public support for this I hope they fire the lot of em.

dny123456

It is the perfect group of greedy PS workers to make an example of. Won't be much sympathy for secure staff on 130K+ striking for increases of 6%.

Fire the lot of them, get in some controllers from abroad (or control and operate from abroad). No actual need for them to be Irish, or based in Dublin, Shannon and Cork

hiorta

There are two sides to every story - often a third.
A settled mechanism for operating anything cannot be overturned because one side says so. Discussion of the issues and honest negotiations are helpful - macho, threats are not.

gerry28

It is quite amazing alright. I heard on the radio today that they earn up to €160,000 per year and they want a payrise.

Not even the people i work with every day are looking for payrises and we earn 5 or 6 times less.

I'm in the same union as them and i can't see how they can represent such wide ranging pay levels effectively.

quiche

It's a well established fact that the most 'organized', as in everyone gets over the barrel, unionized sectors are the air traffic controllers, followed by hospital consultants.

Fair representation is great, but these two organizations have such stupidly insane contracts, purely down to having negotiated such small employment bases, that any withdrawal of services can cripple the country, that they feel they can dictate any terms they like.

dny123456

hiorta wrote: »

There are two sides to every story - often a third.
A settled mechanism for operating anything cannot be overturned because one side says so. Discussion of the issues and honest negotiations are helpful - macho, threats are not.

Course it can. One side can hire different people to do the job the other side used moan about doing (and retain the staff that realise that the union heads are nuts)

Time to break the unions.

ronbyrne2005

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6991798.ece

SLUSK

Why can't they bring in strike breakers? Is it against the law to hire strike breakers to work during a strike?

We need more scabs, they are true heroes.

rovert

SLUSK is easily my favourite poster in all of Politics. Love his work.

picpress

Once again we see the veil slipping with this interview from Liam Kavanagh HR director at IAA when he says that the agreed Towards 2016 payments should be cut due to IBECs statement before christmas. Who is in charge here IBEC or our flip flop government. Tic Tac Tic Tac cut here cut there ....play one off against the other.

http://www.rte.ie/news/news1pm/player.html?20100119,2684368,2684378,real,209

zootroid

Are you agreeing with the strikers, picpress? I hardly think you could compare the plight of an ordinary public sector worker to an air traffic controller, given the difference in wage rates.

If the figures that are floating around are to be believed, that the typical salary is 112k, it's difficult to have any sympathy for them. The inconvenience they will cause, in this time of economic crisis, for a pay-rise, well it just boils down to pure greed. People complain about bankers being greedy (and rightly so), but apparently the same doesn't appear to being said about this lot.

Oh, source for salary figures:

http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=96&a=830

(I know this article could be biased, but finding it hard to find wage rates from another source).

zootroid

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6991798.ece

The figures in that article are frightening.

picpress

zootroid wrote: »

Are you agreeing with the strikers, picpress? I hardly think you could compare the plight of an ordinary public sector worker to an air traffic controller, given the difference in wage rates.

If the figures that are floating around are to be believed, that the typical salary is 112k, it's difficult to have any sympathy for them.

What I am agreeing with is that IBEC and the small firms association have been banging the race to the bottom drum for a number of months now and the government have been dancing to their tune rather than the other way round.

picpress wrote: »

WHO Wrote THE BUDGET SPEECH - IBEC
Have a look at these Quotes taken from the Pre-budget submission of the Small Firms Association and IBEC and tell me why Public Servants should spend their money in Irish Businesses this Christmas I know I'm going to keep my hands in my pocket!!!

TAKE THE SPENDING SURVEY a AT url.ie/49zl

"As set out in Section 3 of this submission IBEC proposes that current expenditure should by reduced by €4 bn in 2010. This should comprise of a €1.4 bn reduction in public sector pay; €1.3 reduction in the social welfare bill and €1.3 cut in the delivery of other current services."

"Given that the increase in the precautionary savings rate is a central cause of the collapse of consumer spending, and domestic economic activity, a signal that the 'worst is behind us' would help stimulate consumption ."

Could this be what's coming down the tracks:-
"In the interests of national competitiveness and the quality of services provided to business and the public, it is better that the public sector pay bill is reduced through a unit cost reduction in the services delivered rather than through an excessive decrease in public sector numbers and service quality. IBEC recommends that the public sector pay and pensions bill is reduced by at least a further €2 bn during 2010 and 2011. One of the immediate measures required to achieve this is the cancellation of all pay increments. Pay increments awarded to public servants during 2009 are estimated to have cost about €250 mn p.a."

IBEC pre-budget submission 26/10/2009

“There is no way any reasonable person can expect to exit this deep recession with the standard of living they went into it with, intact. We are advocating that the €4bn cuts are shared three ways; namely one-third from a reduction in the unit cost of the provision of public services (through decreases in real public sector pay and radically altering the public sector pension provision, rather than simply cutting numbers and services), one-third through a reduction in the social welfare bill, and one-third through efficiency gains across the broader current public expenditure heads."

Small Firms Association pre-budget submission Nov 2009
The SFA Chairman, Dr Aidan O’Boyle

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63538075#post63538075

Has the old Fianna Fail slogan changed from "People before Politics" to "Profit before People"

syklops

dny123456 wrote: »

Fire the lot of them, get in some controllers from abroad (or control and operate from abroad). No actual need for them to be Irish, or based in Dublin, Shannon and Cork

There is a course run by the defence forces every year in ATC(Air traffic Control), there was an article in the cosantoir a while back about it. I don't have any figures to back this up, but I think the defence forces have enough trained personnel to handle the task.

I don't like my job and I think I could be paid more for what I do, but I am smart enough to know that I am not irreplaceable, and even if I was an air traffic control person, I should be smart enough to know that if I go on strike, that the taoiseach will be flying in AT Controllers from anywhere he can find them and if the Taoiseach is strong in his convictions, I know I will be fired for refusing to do the job I was told to do.

Fire their asses, bring in Defence Forces ATC-certified personnel to do the job and then ring Moster.

Mediocrity

Any budding IT graduates (degree qualifications required) fancy a new opportunity?

http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=25743_131&REQUEST=WWW_JS_VAC_PREVIOUS_NEXT&ROW=PREVIOUS!24

Welease

gerry28 wrote: »

It is quite amazing alright. I heard on the radio today that they earn up to €160,000 per year and they want a payrise.

Not even the people i work with every day are looking for payrises and we earn 5 or 6 times less.

I'm in the same union as them and i can't see how they can represent such wide ranging pay levels effectively.

I'm wondering how other Impact members feel... They are effectively bankrolling a morally/intellectually corrupt organisation which seems intent on destroying the last remnants of competitiveness left in this country.

Sleepy

Mediocrity wrote: »

Any budding IT graduates (degree qualifications required) fancy a new opportunity?

http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=25743_131&REQUEST=WWW_JS_VAC_PREVIOUS_NEXT&ROW=PREVIOUS!24

Is that a link to vacancies within the ATC unit? Won't open here in work but if so, I'll be firing off an application tonight.

syklops

Sleepy wrote: »

Is that a link to vacancies within the ATC unit? Won't open here in work but if so, I'll be firing off an application tonight.

Wont open for me either.

Ste.phen

I presume it was a joke and has since been removed

zootroid

syklops wrote: »

Wont open for me either.

Clicked on it last night. It was a job for someone with a degree in IT that didn't pay a salary.

I heard on the radio today, that flights were affected from this morning. I can appreciate flights being affected after the strike, some flights being delayed rather than being cancelled, but how are flights due to depart this morning cancelled when the strike didn't start until 2 this afternoon?

I see we've made the bbc website as well: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8469295.stm

We are an absolute joke of a country

Tipp Man

picpress wrote: »

What I am agreeing with is that IBEC and the small firms association have been banging the race to the bottom drum for a number of months now and the government have been dancing to their tune rather than the other way round.

Has it not even remotely dawned on you that wages and cost in this country are through the roof compared to our neighbours/competitiors. How on earth do you think we are to recover from recession if we don't cut our wages and costs dramatically?? You honestly expect everybody in this country to maintain the frankly disgustingly high standard of living that seemed to become the norm in the last 5 years??

The sooner we do get to the bottom the better, its a pity we couldn't have done more even in the last budget

donkey balls

syklops wrote: »

There is a course run by the defence forces every year in ATC(Air traffic Control), there was an article in the cosantoir a while back about it. I don't have any figures to back this up, but I think the defence forces have enough trained personnel to handle the task.

I don't like my job and I think I could be paid more for what I do, but I am smart enough to know that I am not irreplaceable, and even if I was an air traffic control person, I should be smart enough to know that if I go on strike, that the taoiseach will be flying in AT Controllers from anywhere he can find them and if the Taoiseach is strong in his convictions, I know I will be fired for refusing to do the job I was told to do.

Fire their asses, bring in Defence Forces ATC-certified personnel to do the job and then ring Moster.

it takes over two years to train as an ATCO, airforce controllers are trained differently to cival ones same as civilian pilots are trained differently to airforce pilots. the figure been bandied about of 115k is after 20yrs service.
this is a link from real ATCO based in ireland http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/402624-irish-air-traffic-controllers-suspended.html what caught my attention while reading through it was the bonus paid out to IAA mgmt it looks like were in a race to the bottom.

Idbatterim

This has been mentioned and its really getting my back up and it is this! these guys or on obscence disgusting over the top salaries, looking to do less work for more money! and the rest of us are happy to have any job or are unemployed! no job security, no pension, no nothing! this madness has to be stopped! Outsource everything that possibly can be!

picpress

Tipp Man wrote: »

The sooner we do get to the bottom the better, its a pity we couldn't have done more even in the last budget

That's it .......keep banging that TORYBOY IBEC drum.....:rolleyes:

brianthebard

gerry28 wrote: »

It is quite amazing alright. I heard on the radio today that they earn up to €160,000 per year and they want a payrise.

*facepalm*

How many of the aforementioned workers are earning 160,000? Is it possible that the payrise they want was previously agreed in a legally binding contract with their employers, as has generally been the case in the past 2-3 years where Public sector workers have sought increases which the govt has refused to pay?

gerry28

brianthebard wrote: »

*facepalm*

How many of the aforementioned workers are earning 160,000? Is it possible that the payrise they want was previously agreed in a legally binding contract with their employers, as has generally been the case in the past 2-3 years where Public sector workers have sought increases which the govt has refused to pay?

Times have changed though. Most public servants had been due payrises but are not getting them (quite the opposite). I could understand them trying to maintain their current payrates but looking for payrises when everyone else is getting cut is a bit much.


115K,160K, 220K its not really the time to be looking for payrises.

donkey balls

the 115k being bandied about is for an ATCO after 20yrs service the first 2 years training is about 17k although i heard that the IAA want to get rid of that and not pay the students anything for two years.
also what about the bonus paid out to the IAA mgmt?

brianthebard

gerry28 wrote: »

Times have changed though. Most public servants had been due payrises but are not getting them (quite the opposite). I could understand them trying to maintain their current payrates but looking for payrises when everyone else is getting cut is a bit much.

I see you've ignored both my questions.

gerry28

brianthebard wrote: »

I see you've ignored both my questions.

To answer your question i have no idea how many are on 160K, my point was they are well paid and now is not a great time to be looking for payrises.

eagleriver

The quick answer is none of them are paid 160k...or any where near it!!! The reason you can't find the salary scales is because if the IAA published them, they wouldn't be able to lie about them.It's a made-up figure which includes things like overtime to prop up mis-managed and understaffed rosters, mandatory working on bank holidays, (which includes Christmas Day for example), the figure the Authority pays in PRSI, which no employee of ANY company ever gets as "remuneration" etc.
This dispute is about Air Traffic Controllers being unilaterally suspended by their semi-state employers (NOTE: NOT the civil service)... NOT for refusing to control air traffic... but for withdrawing from a technology project. Read the statements from the IAA carefully.... you'll never see them saying the suspended staff refused to be air traffic controllers. Point in fact, the balance of the air traffic controllers who engaged in a legally sanctioned work stoppage today, were docked a full days pay, which is illegal by the way under the Payment of Wages Act. So what do you do when your company refuses to pay for work you're doing.... you stop doing it, right?? Not in this case.... these "selfish" controllers worked free for the day so the flying public would not be further discommoded. The spin on this story is that this dispute is about wages and pensions. Seriously!!!... Does no-one remember Orson Wells and what happens when you blindly believe what you hear on the Radio..???The truth is this dispute is about 14 Air Traffic Controllers (and the clue here is in their title/job description) who have been suspended without pay, by a semi-state body acting outside all the norms of conventional industrial relations, for not doing their computer homework!!!! And the Minister who is the only shareholder in the this semi-state company, is letting them do it... which should put everyone in fear for the continued existence of any legal protections for employees in this state.

If that's a State you fancy bringing up your kids in, then grab some Tomatoes and head on out to your local picket line. That is,of course, unless they are working for free again, so the Irish public doesn't have to wait an extra day to fly off on the holidays none of us can supposedly afford.

Thanks for reading.

Paul

Sleepy

What's the starting salary after the training period is over?

Were the individuals being asked to do this work out of hours and without remuneration because I've never heard of a contract of employment which didn't include a clause along the lines of "and any related duties which you may be asked to do" etc. Even if this was technically absent from a contract how on earth can anyone consider themselves as having done an honest days work if they're refusing to perform tasks that're being asked of them?

Jumpy

eagleriver wrote: »

The quick answer is none of them are paid 160k...or any where near it!!! The reason you can't find the salary scales is because if the IAA published them, they wouldn't be able to lie about them.It's a made-up figure which includes things like overtime to prop up mis-managed and understaffed rosters, mandatory working on bank holidays, (which includes Christmas Day for example), the figure the Authority pays in PRSI, which no employee of ANY company ever gets as "remuneration" etc.
This dispute is about Air Traffic Controllers being unilaterally suspended by their semi-state employers (NOTE: NOT the civil service)... NOT for refusing to control air traffic... but for withdrawing from a technology project. Read the statements from the IAA carefully.... you'll never see them saying the suspended staff refused to be air traffic controllers. Point in fact, the balance of the air traffic controllers who engaged in a legally sanctioned work stoppage today, were docked a full days pay, which is illegal by the way under the Payment of Wages Act. So what do you do when your company refuses to pay for work you're doing.... you stop doing it, right?? Not in this case.... these "selfish" controllers worked free for the day so the flying public would not be further discommoded. The spin on this story is that this dispute is about wages and pensions. Seriously!!!... Does no-one remember Orson Wells and what happens when you blindly believe what you hear on the Radio..???The truth is this dispute is about 14 Air Traffic Controllers (and the clue here is in their title/job description) who have been suspended without pay, by a semi-state body acting outside all the norms of conventional industrial relations, for not doing their computer homework!!!! And the Minister who is the only shareholder in the this semi-state company, is letting them do it... which should put everyone in fear for the continued existence of any legal protections for employees in this state.

If that's a State you fancy bringing up your kids in, then grab some Tomatoes and head on out to your local picket line. That is,of course, unless they are working for free again, so the Irish public doesn't have to wait an extra day to fly off on the holidays none of us can supposedly afford.

Thanks for reading.

Paul

What exactly is a "legally sanctioned work stoppage" ?

The_Honeybadger

Sleepy wrote: »

What's the starting salary after the training period is over?

Were the individuals being asked to do this work out of hours and without remuneration because I've never heard of a contract of employment which didn't include a clause along the lines of "and any related duties which you may be asked to do" etc. Even if this was technically absent from a contract how on earth can anyone consider themselves as having done an honest days work if they're refusing to perform tasks that're being asked of them?

Well said I have always been amazed that some employees expect a reward for making small changes to how they do their work. However I think this dispute was about 14 ATC being suspended for refusing to cooperate with the change in technology because they were being asked for a pension contribution, and their pay raise wasnt being paid. I dont think they actually expected money for using the new technology in fairness to them, their actions are still disgraceful though.

TCP/IP_King

Sleepy wrote: »

Is that a link to vacancies within the ATC unit? Won't open here in work but if so, I'll be firing off an application tonight.

I hope that the air traffic controllers are not sitting in work browsing boards.ie instead of keeping us safe in our seats !!

ixoy

eagleriver wrote: »

The quick answer is none of them are paid 160k...or any where near it!!! The reason you can't find the salary scales is because if the IAA published them, they wouldn't be able to lie about them.

So why don't IMPACT refute them then? Why would they let us believe all of this if it's not remotely true?

This dispute is about Air Traffic Controllers being unilaterally suspended by their semi-state employers (NOTE: NOT the civil service)... NOT for refusing to control air traffic... but for withdrawing from a technology project.

And why did they withdraw? We've seen nothing at all that would seem to defend their refusal to adapt to new working practices. Why should they get to sanction every thing they do in their job? Surely IMPACT could - at least - explain why their ATC members refused to take on the new technologies in a bid to share some sympathy. In the absent of that, it makes their members look stubborn and greedy - looking for compensation for changes that other professions often deal with on a daily basis. If it's more than that, tell us. I know I certainly don't feel the right, nor does anyone I know, to refuse to changes in my job nor should I.

Sleepy

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

I hope that the air traffic controllers are not sitting in work browsing boards.ie instead of keeping us safe in our seats !!

Well, I'm not paid anything near their reported salaries and am working in a position where I don't need to be 'switched on' for the entire work day.

Where I'm working I'm paid to do the tasks that are assigned to me, I do them, I wait for the next task. I browse boards while waiting. You get lulls in implementation when users have to come back to you with feedback etc. My employer doesn't mind that I do this, my boss does similar things during his down periods and why you think it counteracts my argument is beyond me.

murphaph

115k after 20 years is still WAY too much to be paying ATCOs.

My GF's sister is an ATCO in Munich. Her jaw dropped when she heard the 115k figure. She says she'll never earn that, nor would she expect to, and Munich is NOT a cheap city, it is as expensive as Dublin for accomodation for a start.

FlutterinBantam

eagleriver wrote: »

The quick answer is none of them are paid 160k...or any where near it!!!

The 160k includes pension payments I believe.

eagleriver wrote: »

The reason you can't find the salary scales is because if the IAA published them, they wouldn't be able to lie about them.It's a made-up figure which includes things like overtime to prop up mis-managed and understaffed rosters, mandatory working on bank holidays, (which includes Christmas Day for example), the figure the Authority pays in PRSI, which no employee of ANY company ever gets as "remuneration" etc.

Plenty of other 24/7 services work similar arrangements, you are far from unique there.

What do you want? All Bank Holidays off and close down the country?[/QUOTE]

eagleriver wrote: »

This dispute is about Air Traffic Controllers being unilaterally suspended by their semi-state employers (NOTE: NOT the civil service)... NOT for refusing to control air traffic... but for withdrawing from a technology project. Read the statements from the IAA carefully.... you'll never see them saying the suspended staff refused to be air traffic controllers. Point in fact, the balance of the air traffic controllers who engaged in a legally sanctioned work stoppage today, were docked a full days pay, which is illegal by the way under the Payment of Wages Act. So what do you do when your company refuses to pay for work you're doing.... you stop doing it, right?? Not in this case.... these "selfish" controllers worked free for the day so the flying public would not be further discommoded. The spin on this story is that this dispute is about wages and pensions. Seriously!!!... Does no-one remember Orson Wells and what happens when you blindly believe what you hear on the Radio..???The truth is this dispute is about 14 Air Traffic Controllers (and the clue here is in their title/job description) who have been suspended without pay, by a semi-state body acting outside all the norms of conventional industrial relations, for not doing their computer homework!!!! And the Minister who is the only shareholder in the this semi-state company, is letting them do it... which should put everyone in fear for the continued existence of any legal protections for employees in this state.

All I can say to that is I'm almost in tears:rolleyes:

eagleriver wrote: »

If that's a State you fancy bringing up your kids in, then grab some Tomatoes and head on out to your local picket line. That is,of course, unless they are working for free again, so the Irish public doesn't have to wait an extra day to fly off on the holidays none of us can supposedly afford.

Thanks for reading.

Paul

A little melodramatic don't you think?
To be honest, the travelling public and the ordinary Joe is a bit pissed off with this over the top approach.
Who do you guys think you are fooling.

You do a difficult job, get good pay and pension,good conditions,cop on to yourselves and recognise you have zero support from the public,particularly the travelling public.

djk1000

You do a difficult job, get good pay and pension,good conditions,cop on to yourselves and recognise you have zero support from the public,particularly the travelling public.

+1

murphaph

It's not that difficult, at least according to my GF's sister (and her boyfriend who does the same job). According to the two of them, their system makes it theoretically impossible to direct an aircraft to crash into another one, or into something else. Maybe that's because their predecessors cooperated with the introduction of new technology though.....hmmmm. Food for thought.

brianthebard

ixoy wrote: »

So why don't IMPACT refute them then? Why would they let us believe all of this if it's not remotely true?

They have done, read any article in which an IMPACT rep has been interviewed. Seems as if it wasn't mentioned in the op extra information about these 'disputes' is just not sought out by people here.

ixoy

brianthebard wrote: »

They have done, read any article in which an IMPACT rep has been interviewed. Seems as if it wasn't mentioned in the op extra information about these 'disputes' is just not sought out by people here.

Really? I can't see it on IMPACT's site. I'm not referring to the nature of the dispute. I'm asking why don't they discuss why the ATCs won't adapt the new technology if it's deemed so unreasonable by them and why don't they talk about how their ATCs are actually much poorer than the 160k figures being bandied about if it's not true.

brianthebard

ixoy wrote: »

Really? I can't see it on IMPACT's site. I'm not referring to the nature of the dispute. I'm asking why don't they discuss why the ATCs won't adapt the new technology if it's deemed so unreasonable by them and why don't they talk about how their ATCs are actually much poorer than the 160k figures being bandied about if it's not true.

Well where are these figures coming from at all? They aren't mentioned in the op's link afaik, nor in the Irish Times article from yesterday http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0120/1224262715081.html It was someone on the first page who said 130k and that was blindly accepted and now you're saying 160k (perhaps by mistake) so really it seems to be a case of boards chinese whispers, so I doubt the union is going to dispute it since it should not be important. If you read the Times article you'll see some of the key reasons for not adopting the technology mentioned.

techdiver

brianthebard wrote: »

Well where are these figures coming from at all? They aren't mentioned in the op's link afaik, nor in the Irish Times article from yesterday http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0120/1224262715081.html It was someone on the first page who said 130k and that was blindly accepted and now you're saying 160k (perhaps by mistake) so really it seems to be a case of boards chinese whispers, so I doubt the union is going to dispute it since it should not be important. If you read the Times article you'll see some of the key reasons for not adopting the technology mentioned.

The only reason I see quoted is:

The changes would be more complex, mentally demanding and more stressful for controllers, he said.

In my job, if we are given instructions to use a new system or technology we do so or choose to find another job... It's that simple.:mad:

zootroid

Ok, this dispute is about either one of two things.

1) Introduction of new technology, that controllers refused to take part in. I've worked in places where we've introduced new systems. Do you think we demanded more money to use them? No. Do you think I refused to be trained in the new system, or use the new system? No. Why? Because it's my job, that's what I'm paid to do. In actual fact, if I were to refuse to use a new system that my company were bringing in, I wouldn't expect to be suspended, I would expect to be fired.

2) Increase in pay (probably the more likely of the scenarios). I posted a link on the first page to the IAA website where salaries and benefits are discussed:

"These are very well paid staff," Kavanagh continues. "Yes, they do highly important work - and accordingly we pay them very well. A Controller will typically earn a basic salary of over €112,000. When you include PRSI and the pension contribution of 30.5% of salary that the IAA pays, this gives a total package of almost €160,000. When you contrast that with other public sector staff - teachers, nurses, gardai, all of whom are paying a pension levy, these are very well paid staff, with a gold-plated defined-benefits pension scheme. "

"These Controllers work a 35 hour week," says Kavanagh. "They are entitled to a break of 30 minutes for every two hours worked. They work five days and then get three days off. They work 182 days a year, they have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays, in addition to 10 public holidays"

The airlines cannot afford to pay any increases in this climate.

Link here again in case you missed it on the first page: http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=96&a=830

Nothing about "you have to work 20 years to get to that salary, just the typical (which I take to mean average) salary. Also, a 35 hour week, 7 weeks holidays a year, in addition to public holidays. You'd have to look very hard to find another profession that rewards staff like that, and you certainly won't find it in the private sector. Then there is the addition of a defined benefit pension scheme (again, rare in the private sector) which they contribute nothing towards!!!!

I think it just boils down to pure greed. And I don't think they, or any group for that matter, should have the power to bring the country to its knees in the way they have done. It's an absolute disgrace, and I think the majority of the public feel the same way.

The last part, which I put in bold, is the most important part. The state does not pay, the airlines do through charges. They then have to try pass this onto the consumer. But the airline industry is in such bad shape at the moment, they are reluctant to raise prices in case it discourages travellers.

brianthebard

techdiver wrote: »

In my job, if we are given instructions to use a new system or technology we do so or choose to find another job... It's that simple.:mad:

I can't believe that people here don't realise that not all jobs are the same, or that not all workers are expected to be mute. The IAA was more than happy to bring the workers in on the project more than two years ago as should be patently clear to anyone reading this thread or following this dispute, and now you are complaining that it is the workers who have made this horrifying demand?

zootroid wrote: »

I think it just boils down to pure greed. And I don't think they, or any group for that matter, should have the power to bring the country to its knees in the way they have done. It's an absolute disgrace, and I think the majority of the public feel the same way.

The last part, which I put in bold, is the most important part. The state does not pay, the airlines do through charges. They then have to try pass this onto the consumer. But the airline industry is in such bad shape at the moment, they are reluctant to raise prices in case it discourages travellers.

I love how your own link shows that the IAA is wilfully trying to break their own contracts and you make it out to be greed on the part of Impact/Atc's which is causing this dispute.
Your link also creates a massive strawman, in that Impact want to have the suspended workers reinstated and want to work that issue out without preconditions, but the IAA are insisting on discussing all issues together, even the pay increase, which they are so generously asking Impact to defer in that link.

Anyone that would believe such blatant propaganda has already made up their mind before they ever opened the webpage.

techdiver

brianthebard wrote: »

I can't believe that people here don't realise that not all jobs are the same, or that not all workers are expected to be mute.

I don't except that. It's simple. You have a job and your employer pays you an agreed rate for that job. In return you are expected to perform your duties. Advances in technology and work practise will always happen. As i always say, if you don't like it, start typing up your CV.

This is like the same crap the train drivers tried to pull a few years ago when the new trains were introduced and some extra capacity added to commuter routes.