If Germany had invaded britain in WW2 ?

McArmalite

What if the Germans had invaded britain, was it just sabre rattling or was their a real possibility of " fighting them on the beaches, in the streets " etc or would the army that was routed at Dunkirk have been again little more than a few days target practice for Gerry ?

InTheTrees

McArmalite wrote: »

What if the Germans had invaded britain, was it just sabre rattling or was their a real possibility of " fighting them on the beaches, in the streets " etc or would the army that was routed at Dunkirk have been again little more than a few days target practice for Gerry ?

The "british expeditionary force" was a joke, they had no idea what they were up against.

I dont think the germans would have stood a chance in england, its possible they could have taken the country but controlling it would have been impossible.

Morlar

McArmalite wrote: »

What if the Germans had invaded britain, was it just sabre rattling or was their a real possibility of " fighting them on the beaches, in the streets " etc or would the army that was routed at Dunkirk have been again little more than a few days target practice for Gerry ?

I think if they had accepted from the outset that all out war with britain was inevitable (instead of a phoney war and permitting the BEF to withdraw from Dunkirk to try to avoid forcing the british hand) then they would have been better positioned to invade after the surrender of France. Obviously before breaking the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact.

Later on when the U Boat war was in full effect and also during the battle of britain the possibility exsisted but so long as Goering was in charge of the Luftwaffe (rather than anyone else - eg even someone like Ernst Udet) then without that air superiority it would have been extremely costly & possibly failed.

Another factor is that they also would have been completely vulnerable to a soviet attack through Poland for the duration of the invasion of britain which was possibly a factor in the German thinking at that time.

I think that the possibilities for an invasion point were more limited on the english south coast compared to what the allies had to choose from several years later.

Air power & surprise would have been extremely important (neither of which they had).

So basically I think they could have done it but it would have required changes in thinking on their part from an earlier stage.

Also to have mounted a massive invasion force across the channel would have tied them up for at least a year and suffered massive casualties & equipment losses (probably more than the initial advance into Russia) which would have made them completely vulnerable so the Russians. If they did it before the end of 1941 then (pearl Harbour) there is a good chance america may have committed to defending britain too which is something else they wanted to avoid.

InTheTrees

Isnt it also true that logistically once they were in a position to invade, the oil was running short and it was going to take all their resources to hold on to what they had, without adding a whole new front.

R.Dub.Fusilier

my mothers uncle was at Dunkirk and was one of the ones standing in the sea up to his chest. he died years later as a result of it . the german army couldnt understand why hitler didnt attack for a couple of days and allowed most of the british on the beaches to escape back to england , many believed that it was because he didnt want a war with britain and didnt want to destroy the british army in order to make a peace treaty with britain . i read somewhere , or seen on tg4, that the weapons captured at dunkirk were destined to the IRA in the event of an invasion of ireland by britain.

if the germans had of captured the troops at dunkirk and invaded soon after they would have had a better chance but the way the british are they would have made them fight for every inch of grass and indeed as already mentioned the yanks would have been in like a shot to help them.

Judgement Day

It is a well known fact that the British Government had contingency plans to continue the fight from Canada if the UK was overwhelmed but, in any event, the price the Germans would have had to pay would have been enormous, and without air cover, impossible. There is no question that Britain and the Empire would have continued to fight on and sueing for peace would not have happened. The only way the Germans could ever have overwhelmed Britain or held Europe would have been to develop the A-bomb before anybody else. That they didn't was due in no small part to British Commando and RAF attacks on heavy water production facilities in Norway. The wicked old Brits - it would have been better to live under the Nazi jackboot with the threat of nuclear anniliation hanging over any country that didn't tow the line.

Fratton Fred

I don't think the Germans could have followed up with an invasion after reaching Dunkirk, I am pretty sure they simply didn't have enough boats to get over and what they did have would have been destroyed by the Royal Navy.

Britain never lost control of the seas and all the time they had that, an invasion was unlikely.

Hookey

InTheTrees wrote: »

I dont think the germans would have stood a chance in england, its possible they could have taken the country but controlling it would have been impossible.

I'm not sure how true that is; its true Britain had better planning for a guerilla war than say, France, and Churchill wouldn't have hesitated to use nasties like poison gas, but there's no telling how the average person in the street would have reacted in the long run. I don't think the British are fundamentally different from other Europeans in that regard.

Morlar wrote: »

Also to have mounted a massive invasion force across the channel would have tied them up for at least a year and suffered massive casualties & equipment losses (probably more than the initial advance into Russia) which would have made them completely vulnerable so the Russians. If they did it before the end of 1941 then (pearl Harbour) there is a good chance america may have committed to defending britain too which is something else they wanted to avoid.

Most historians think the Germans weren't really committed to an invasion of Britain; in particular, there was nothing like the same logistics planning the allies committed to for Overlord, in particular the Germans didn't have enough transport ships; they were going to rely on barges scrounged from all over Europe. As for Russia attacking Germany when they were engaged against Britain, they could have done that when the Germans were fighting in France and the low countries, but they didn't then because they weren't really in a position to do so. Same for US assistance to the UK as well; if Germany had invaded, the Americans wouldn't have been able to get up to speed to put boots on the ground. Funnily enough, Ireland would have been the only real option for the Americans to keep a foothold in Europe.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Isnt it also true that logistically once they were in a position to invade, the oil was running short and it was going to take all their resources to hold on to what they had, without adding a whole new front.

No because they hadn't invaded the Soviet Union yet, or at this stage, gone in the Balkans and North Africa. Fuel wasn't their concern, proper kit was.

There's a ton of historical analysis out there looking at ways an invasion of England might have gone, but unless the Luftwaffe could have established total air superiority, any transports heading over the channel would have been at the mercy of the Royal Navy. Later operations in Crete, Malta and against the Japanese showed the RN was pretty exposed against decent air power, but in the Channel, with land based cover, most of the German forces wouldn't have even landed, and the German high command knew it.

The Battle of Britain gets all the plaudits ("the Few" and all that), and it was important, but the place Britain could have really lost the war was the Battle of The Atlantic, and that was a close run thing.

KingKiller

InTheTrees wrote: »

The "british expeditionary force" was a joke, they had no idea what they were up against.

I dont think the germans would have stood a chance in england, its possible they could have taken the country but controlling it would have been impossible.

Well they took the Channel islands, don't think their was any real practical resistance there. Would the same have been repeated across England ?

Orizio

I'm not sure why people think the Germans would have struggled to 'control' GB or Ireland if they had successfully invaded - surely their policy of ensuring law and order through mass murder was a 'success' elsewhere?

Judgement Day

KingKiller wrote: »

Well they took the Channel islands, don't think their was any real practical resistance there. Would the same have been repeated across England ?

The Channel Islands were undefended by the British and were left to fend for themselves as best they could after the Dunkirk evacuation. Their defence would have been completely impractical due to their proximity to France and the Luftwaffe. The invasion of the UK mainland would have been quite a different matter and even if it had been successful would have stretched German supply lines even further and tied up a large number of troops to occupy the conquered territory. I also think that the efforts of the French resistance would have been like a proverbial tea party compared to what would have occurred in Britain.

loveissucide

I agree that a conquest of Britain would have been difficult, as seen by the diificulties Napoleon had when he attempted to,and the strong nationalist feeling in the Isles.However,it could have triggered Franco to enter Spain into the war, making Axis victory a certainty by virtue of discouraging US intervention.

Judgement Day

loveissucide wrote: »

I agree that a conquest of Britain would have been difficult, as seen by the diificulties Napoleon had when he attempted to,and the strong nationalist feeling in the Isles.However,it could have triggered Franco to enter Spain into the war, making Axis victory a certainty by virtue of discouraging US intervention.

I think Franco was far too cute to get dragged into WWII and, in any event, why would that have deterred the USA from getting involved? Spain's army wouldn't have brought much to the party (ill equipped cannon fodder) and Japan would still have attacked the US which would have brought them into the war anyway.

Plenty of interesting info here: http://warandgame.blogspot.com/2009/05/spanish-military-during-world-war-ii.html

This backs up my memories of Spanish war readiness learnt at primary school some forty years ago.

KingKiller

Judgement Day wrote: »

The Channel Islands were undefended by the British and were left to fend for themselves as best they could after the Dunkirk evacuation. Their defence would have been completely impractical due to their proximity to France and the Luftwaffe. The invasion of the UK mainland would have been quite a different matter and even if it had been successful would have stretched German supply lines even further and tied up a large number of troops to occupy the conquered territory. I also think that the efforts of the French resistance would have been like a proverbial tea party compared to what would have occurred in Britain.

Well ofcourse if they had invaded the UK it would have stretched German supply lines even further and tied up a large number of troops, so did invading the Balkans, USSR etc. As for the efforts of the French resistance been a tea party, so what did the UK have, Capt Mainwarning, Corporal Jones and the Home Guard Indeed, didn't they also trash the UK in Norway, Crete etc. It wasn't until the Americans came in that Britain finally started to win some land battles.

KingKiller

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

my mothers uncle was at Dunkirk and was one of the ones standing in the sea up to his chest. he died years later as a result of it . the german army couldnt understand why hitler didnt attack for a couple of days and allowed most of the british on the beaches to escape back to england , many believed that it was because he didnt want a war with britain and didnt want to destroy the british army in order to make a peace treaty with britain . i read somewhere , or seen on tg4, that the weapons captured at dunkirk were destined to the IRA in the event of an invasion of ireland by britain.

if the germans had of captured the troops at dunkirk and invaded soon after they would have had a better chance but the way the british are they would have made them fight for every inch of grass and indeed as already mentioned the yanks would have been in like a shot to help them.

Must have been a terrible experience for your uncle. We cannot know what was going through the minds of the men stranded there, as well as the French people. Yeah, it was a weird one that Hitler ordered the Germans to stop within a few miles of Dunkirk. Not sure what his excuse was. As for the Yanks coming in like a shot if the UK was invaded, cannot see it. Pearl Harbour brought the Yanks in, during the Batle of Britain they weren't bothered joining, they were happy to stay out.

Judgement Day

KingKiller wrote: »

Well ofcourse if they had invaded the UK it would have stretched German supply lines even further and tied up a large number of troops, so did invading the Balkans, USSR etc. As for the efforts of the French resistance been a tea party, so what did the UK have, Capt Mainwarning, Corporal Jones and the Home Guard Indeed, didn't they also trash the UK in Norway, Crete etc. It wasn't until the Americans came in that Britain finally started to win some land battles.

In fact the first land battles that the British/Allied forces won were in North Africa at El Alamein in Oct/Nov 1942 - without American help - under the command of General Bernard Montgomery. The Dad's army that you refer to with such scorn would have made the Germans fight for every inch of British soil but it would have fallen to members of the regular army, gone to ground after an invasion, who would have been the backbone of a resistance movement. It may have escaped your attention that trying to defend places like Crete, Norway, Singapore etc from somewhere as far away as Britain is a virtual impossibility. Britain and its allies had to fight on numerous fronts and again, in my opinion, I'm glad that they did otherwise we mightn't have the freedom to be debating this or any other issue on Boards.ie

brianthebard

This thread makes much more sense in the WWII forum. Hope that's ok with the mods here. Thanks, B.

UltimateMale

Judgement Day wrote: »

In fact the first land battles that the British/Allied forces won were in North Africa at El Alamein in Oct/Nov 1942 - without American help - under the command of General Bernard Montgomery. The Dad's army that you refer to with such scorn would have made the Germans fight for every inch of British soil but it would have fallen to members of the regular army, gone to ground after an invasion, who would have been the backbone of a resistance movement. It may have escaped your attention that trying to defend places like Crete, Norway, Singapore etc from somewhere as far away as Britain is a virtual impossibility. Britain and its allies had to fight on numerous fronts and again, in my opinion, I'm glad that they did otherwise we mightn't have the freedom to be debating this or any other issue on Boards.ie

" In fact the first land battles that the British/Allied forces won were in North Africa at El Alamein in Oct/Nov 1942 - without American help - under the command of General Bernard Montgomery. " Well I suppose that's true, eventually with enough much larger numbers and resources from Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa and Canada, Montgomery finally got a vistory for the ' UK '. But the Germans had much more important matters on their minds - the Eastern Front .

" The Dad's army that you refer to with such scorn would have made the Germans fight for every inch of British soil " The Germans would have gone thruough them like a hot knife through butter As the OP says, the (British) army that was routed at Dunkirk have been again little more than a few days target practice for Gerry. And as for resisting the Germans occupation, again as someone said " I'm not sure why people think the Germans would have struggled to 'control' GB or Ireland if they had successfully invaded - surely their policy of ensuring law and order through mass murder was a 'success' elsewhere? "

ejmaztec

KingKiller wrote: »

Must have been a terrible experience for your uncle. We cannot know what was going through the minds of the men stranded there, as well as the French people. Yeah, it was a weird one that Hitler ordered the Germans to stop within a few miles of Dunkirk. Not sure what his excuse was. As for the Yanks coming in like a shot if the UK was invaded, cannot see it. Pearl Harbour brought the Yanks in, during the Batle of Britain they weren't bothered joining, they were happy to stay out.

Pearl Harbour, or no, they would have joined in the European action soon enough. The Jewish lobby, for one, would be pushing the issue.

Hookey

UltimateMale wrote: »

" In fact the first land battles that the British/Allied forces won were in North Africa at El Alamein in Oct/Nov 1942 - without American help - under the command of General Bernard Montgomery. " Well I suppose that's true, eventually with enough much larger numbers and resources from Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa and Canada, Montgomery finally got a vistory for the ' UK '. But the Germans had much more important matters on their minds - the Eastern Front .

What's your point? That the British fought as part of a wider group of "Empire" soliders and that somehow dimished their victory? Hardly. Only the Americans out of the allies didn't fight with other nations' troops in their formations (and even the Americans did in Italy) and the Germans did as well. As for the Germans having other things on their mind; since the ultimate aim was for the German sixth Army to break through in the Caucusus and eventually link up with a victorious Afrika Corps heading north after defeating the British (there was almost nothing the British could have done to stop Rommel if he'd gotten east of the Suez Canal) then both El Alamein and Stalingrad were decisive; victory in either could have reinforced the other.

UltimateMale wrote: »

" The Dad's army that you refer to with such scorn would have made the Germans fight for every inch of British soil " The Germans would have gone thruough them like a hot knife through butter As the OP says, the (British) army that was routed at Dunkirk have been again little more than a few days target practice for Gerry. And as for resisting the Germans occupation, again as someone said " I'm not sure why people think the Germans would have struggled to 'control' GB or Ireland if they had successfully invaded - surely their policy of ensuring law and order through mass murder was a 'success' elsewhere? "

As I said in an earlier post, I see no reason why the British population would have been any different to other conquered populations, but, there would have been a big difference in the resistance movement. Unlike other conquered countries, who'd been rolled over by the Germans pretty quickly, the British actually expected an invasion and had been making resistance plans all the way through the Battle of France. The "Auxiliary Units" had been put in place, and government in exile plans had already been made. Ironically, because the British had more experience of supressing resistance movements, they were way more advanced in their plans for their own.

ejmaztec wrote: »

Pearl Harbour, or no, they would have joined in the European action soon enough. The Jewish lobby, for one, would be pushing the issue.

There's nothing to back this up. Rooseveldt wanted to get directly involved against Germany as early as 1940 but Congress were strongly against and he had to use a lot of political arm-twisting to get lend-lease started and start convoy escorts. The Jewish lobby had no real influence over events at all (if they had, more would have been done about the death camps during the war). If Germany had rolled over the UK, its more than possible that Congress would have vetoed any direct confrontation with Germany.
After all, what could the US have actually done? In 1940 the US Army totalled about 400,000 men split between regular and National Guard; the Germans had 2.5 million men in the field and had the entire Atlantic between them and the US. If Britain had been invaded there would have been no US 'Aircraft Carrier' off Europe for the US to use for the Aerial campaigns and invasion of Europe. Trying to do the same thing direct from the US with 1940s technology would have been near impossible (which is also why Ireland would have been at risk if the UK fell, to deny the US a staging area).

junder

Hookey wrote: »

What's your point? That the British fought as part of a wider group of "Empire" soliders and that somehow dimished their victory? Hardly. Only the Americans out of the allies didn't fight with other nations' troops in their formations (and even the Americans did in Italy) and the Germans did as well. As for the Germans having other things on their mind; since the ultimate aim was for the German sixth Army to break through in the Caucusus and eventually link up with a victorious Afrika Corps heading north after defeating the British (there was almost nothing the British could have done to stop Rommel if he'd gotten east of the Suez Canal) then both El Alamein and Stalingrad were decisive; victory in either could have reinforced the other.



As I said in an earlier post, I see no reason why the British population would have been any different to other conquered populations, but, there would have been a big difference in the resistance movement. Unlike other conquered countries, who'd been rolled over by the Germans pretty quickly, the British actually expected an invasion and had been making resistance plans all the way through the Battle of France. The "Auxiliary Units" had been put in place, and government in exile plans had already been made. Ironically, because the British had more experience of supressing resistance movements, they were way more advanced in their plans for their own.



There's nothing to back this up. Rooseveldt wanted to get directly involved against Germany as early as 1940 but Congress were strongly against and he had to use a lot of political arm-twisting to get lend-lease started and start convoy escorts. The Jewish lobby had no real influence over events at all (if they had, more would have been done about the death camps during the war). If Germany had rolled over the UK, its more than possible that Congress would have vetoed any direct confrontation with Germany.
After all, what could the US have actually done? In 1940 the US Army totalled about 400,000 men split between regular and National Guard; the Germans had 2.5 million men in the field and had the entire Atlantic between them and the US. If Britain had been invaded there would have been no US 'Aircraft Carrier' off Europe for the US to use for the Aerial campaigns and invasion of Europe. Trying to do the same thing direct from the US with 1940s technology would have been near impossible (which is also why Ireland would have been at risk if the UK fell, to deny the US a staging area).

With Northern Ireland playing such a important part in the Atlantic war then should the germans have invaded and suppressed main great Britain then it would have wanted Northern ireland taken out of the equation. Would it have allowed the free state to try and take it, its possiable suppose but unliklyi think germany would look at putting troops into northern ireland and while thier at it proberly the free state to

UltimateMale

Hookey wrote: »

What's your point? That the British fought as part of a wider group of "Empire" soliders and that somehow dimished their victory? Hardly. Only the Americans out of the allies didn't fight with other nations' troops in their formations (and even the Americans did in Italy) and the Germans did as well. As for the Germans having other things on their mind; since the ultimate aim was for the German sixth Army to break through in the Caucusus and eventually link up with a victorious Afrika Corps heading north after defeating the British (there was almost nothing the British could have done to stop Rommel if he'd gotten east of the Suez Canal) then both El Alamein and Stalingrad were decisive; victory in either could have reinforced the other.

Well they claim it as a " British " victory when in fact they had others from all over the world, Australians, Indians, Canada etc not to mention Free French, Polish, Czech, Norwegian etc

And don't go telling us that the desert war was on a par with the Eastern front, it's stretching British delousions by a mile

As I said in an earlier post, I see no reason why the British population would have been any different to other conquered populations, but, there would have been a big difference in the resistance movement. Unlike other conquered countries, who'd been rolled over by the Germans pretty quickly, the British actually expected an invasion and had been making resistance plans all the way through the Battle of France. The "Auxiliary Units" had been put in place, and government in exile plans had already been made. Ironically, because the British had more experience of supressing resistance movements, they were way more advanced in their plans for their own.

I don't know why you keep on insisting that the fellas who had to swim out up to their necks calmouring on board the " little boats " leaving all their equipment behind at Dunkirk (especially the heavy stuff, tanks etc) and Dad's army would have been little more than target practice for the Germans.

ejmaztec

Hookey wrote: »

There's nothing to back this up. Rooseveldt wanted to get directly involved against Germany as early as 1940 but Congress were strongly against and he had to use a lot of political arm-twisting to get lend-lease started and start convoy escorts. The Jewish lobby had no real influence over events at all (if they had, more would have been done about the death camps during the war). If Germany had rolled over the UK, its more than possible that Congress would have vetoed any direct confrontation with Germany.
After all, what could the US have actually done? In 1940 the US Army totalled about 400,000 men split between regular and National Guard; the Germans had 2.5 million men in the field and had the entire Atlantic between them and the US. If Britain had been invaded there would have been no US 'Aircraft Carrier' off Europe for the US to use for the Aerial campaigns and invasion of Europe. Trying to do the same thing direct from the US with 1940s technology would have been near impossible (which is also why Ireland would have been at risk if the UK fell, to deny the US a staging area).

Silly me.

ejmaztec

UltimateMale wrote: »

Well they claim it as a " British " victory when in fact they had others from all over the world, Australians, Indians, Canada etc not to mention Free French, Polish, Czech, Norwegian etc

And don't go telling us that the desert war was on a par with the Eastern front, it's stretching British delousions by a mile

I don't know why you keep on insisting that the fellas who had to swim out up to their necks calmouring on board the " little boats " leaving all their equipment behind at Dunkirk (especially the heavy stuff, tanks etc) and Dad's army would have been little more than target practice for the Germans.

Why don't you get down to the nitty gritty, cut to the chase, and tell us who you hate?

UltimateMale

junder wrote: »

With Northern Ireland playing such a important part in the Atlantic war then should the germans have invaded and suppressed main great Britain then it would have wanted Northern ireland taken out of the equation. Would it have allowed the free state to try and take it, its possiable suppose but unliklyi think germany would look at putting troops into northern ireland and while thier at it proberly the free state to

" With Northern Ireland playing such a important part in the Atlantic war " It had about as much importance as the Isle of Man or Isle of Wight or the Shetland Islands etc - hardly worth mentioning. I'll bet German High command hardly gave the place a thought, it wasn't Leningrad or the oil feilds in Romania or something .

UltimateMale

ejmaztec wrote: »

Why don't you get down to the nitty gritty, cut to the chase, and tell us who you hate?

Lets get real, the Eastern front is where WW2 was won.

junder

UltimateMale wrote: »

" With Northern Ireland playing such a important part in the Atlantic war " It had about as much importance as the Isle of Man or Isle of Wight or the Shetland Islands etc - hardly worth mentioning. I'll bet German High command hardly gave the place a thought, it wasn't Leningrad or the oil feilds in Romania or something .

most of the Atlantic escort Fleet were stationed in Northern Ireland with a large amount of Naval Patrol Aircraft stationed here as well since it was closer to the atlantic then say the isle of man or the isle of wight

MoodeRator

Hookey wrote: »

As I said in an earlier post, I see no reason why the British population would have been any different to other conquered populations, but, there would have been a big difference in the resistance movement. Unlike other conquered countries, who'd been rolled over by the Germans pretty quickly, the British actually expected an invasion and had been making resistance plans all the way through the Battle of France. The "Auxiliary Units" had been put in place, and government in exile plans had already been made. Ironically, because the British had more experience of supressing resistance movements, they were way more advanced in their plans for their own.

There was a very interesting documentary on history channel, do an analysis of this very topic with parties from Germany and UK involved and re enacting. It was very clearly accepted by the Germans that they would not have been able to get within 30 miles of London, due to defensive strategies and plans in place and lack of German support.

ejmaztec

UltimateMale wrote: »

Lets get real, the Eastern front is where WW2 was won.

You should be grateful that the Germans and Russians were bogged down for so long, giving the Western allies a chance to move in from the other side. Had this not happened, we'd all be speaking Russian, comrade.

Hookey

UltimateMale wrote: »

Well they claim it as a " British " victory when in fact they had others from all over the world, Australians, Indians, Canada etc not to mention Free French, Polish, Czech, Norwegian etc

And don't go telling us that the desert war was on a par with the Eastern front, it's stretching British delousions by a mile

Actually they don't. Churchill was always at pains to call all victories "Allied" after 1941. And the vast bulk of troops were British anyway; at Alamein it was mainly British, Indian, NZ and South Africans; after Torch and all the way through Italy there were a lot more nationalities (about 28 I think). And you're missing the point about North Africa and the Eastern Front; the numbers involved don't necessarily reflect the credibility (or importance) of the battle. Alamein was decisive. A free hand in the Mediterranean and Suez could have changed the game for the Germans utterly.

UltimateMale wrote: »

I don't know why you keep on insisting that the fellas who had to swim out up to their necks calmouring on board the " little boats " leaving all their equipment behind at Dunkirk (especially the heavy stuff, tanks etc) and Dad's army would have been little more than target practice for the Germans.

I wasn't talking about open battle, I was talking about resistance once the Germans had occupied the country. No one in Britain thought the army could defeat the Germans if they landed. But since no one in British military circles has thought that the British Army could stop an invader on the ground since the late 1600s that's not exactly news (that's why the navy has always been more important, to render that argument moot). The British expected to lose, but they also had a better plan for resistance than anyone else.

Having said that, even in open battle, what remained of the British army would have played dirty on their own ground; Churchill openly admitted he would have used poison gas and anything else that could be thrown at the Germans.

Ping Chow Chi

UltimateMale wrote: »

Well they claim it as a " British " victory when in fact they had others from all over the world, Australians, Indians, Canada etc not to mention Free French, Polish, Czech, Norwegian etc

Whoes this 'they', as someone brought up in britian I've always been told it was an allied effot.

And as for Germany invading Britain, well there wasn't just the defeated BEF soldiers in England at the time (Along with a large number of allied trrops evacuated from dunkirk), I seem to remember there being fresh divisions of the Canadian army transfered to the south of the country.

As the Germans where planning on using barges to cross the channel I would imagine that their loses would have been huge, and even if they took Britian it could haveweakend them so much that Russia might have just steam rolled over them and the rest of Europe, and as someone else has said, we could all now be speaking Russian

UltimateMale

ejmaztec wrote: »

You should be grateful that the Germans and Russians were bogged down for so long, giving the Western allies a chance to move in from the other side. Had this not happened, we'd all be speaking Russian, comrade.

It's Komrade, comrade.:)

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

Whoes this 'they', as someone brought up in britian I've always been told it was an allied effot.

And as for Germany invading Britain, well there wasn't just the defeated BEF soldiers in England at the time (Along with a large number of allied trrops evacuated from dunkirk), I seem to remember there being fresh divisions of the Canadian army transfered to the south of the country.

As the Germans where planning on using barges to cross the channel I would imagine that their loses would have been huge, and even if they took Britian it could haveweakend them so much that Russia might have just steam rolled over them and the rest of Europe, and as someone else has said, we could all now be speaking Russian

And maybe we might have been speaking Japanese, anyway we already had one foreign language forced on us. Obviously I'm no fan of Joe Stalin, but the defeat of Germany was practically on the East. Still say the Germans would have gone up through the UK like a knife through butter against Dad's army and the reminants of Dunkirk. But as Goering was in charge and some of his decisions were plainly stupid e.g. not taking out the radar stations on the south coast, it didn't happen.

ejmaztec

UltimateMale wrote: »

It's Komrade, comrade.:)

But we didn't end up speaking Russian, as I pointed out in my earlier post.

UltimateMale wrote: »

And maybe we might have been speaking Japanese, anyway we already had one foreign language forced on us. Obviously I'm no fan of Joe Stalin, but the defeat of Germany was practically on the East. Still say the Germans would have gone up through the UK like a knife through butter against Dad's army and the reminants of Dunkirk.

I think that you're confusing a small group of comedic characters with the real thing.

You should follow the guideline in one of your earlier posts and "get real".

mike65

UltimateMale, I see you only have a handful of post to your name, what was your old username (I'm presuming you had to re-reg)?

UltimateMale

ejmaztec wrote: »

But we didn't end up speaking Russian, as I pointed out in my earlier post.



I think that you're confusing a small group of comedic characters with the real thing.

You should follow the guideline in one of your earlier posts and "get real".

The Home Guard/Dads Army were indeed a small group of comedic characters. To most English people they are remembered with a bit of fondness, but doubtless enthusiastic. But that enthusiasm wouldn't have been long disappearing against the Waffen SS and Panzer divisions etc. Get real.

hinault

McArmalite wrote: »

What if the Germans had invaded britain, was it just sabre rattling or was their a real possibility of " fighting them on the beaches, in the streets " etc or would the army that was routed at Dunkirk have been again little more than a few days target practice for Gerry ?

Hitler claimed that he wanted an alliance with Britain because he believed that Germany and Britain shared the same ethnicity (Saxon).
Whether that claim was real or not, is debatable.

UltimateMale

hinault wrote: »

Hitler claimed that he wanted an alliance with Britain because he believed that Germany and Britain shared the same ethnicity (Saxon).
Whether that claim was real or not, is debatable.

Did he not use that kind of excuse throughout Western Europe. Under the guise of uniting Europe and saving it from Bolshevikism ?

hinault

UltimateMale wrote: »

Did he not use that kind of excuse throughout Western Europe. Under the guise of uniting Europe and saving it from Bolshevikism ?

Not really.
From his earliest statements, he always said that Britain and Germany were natural Allies, given their shared ethnicity.
(but for a man who fought in WW1, such statements appear crazy).

His stance evolved to the view that the German Reich and the Britain Empire/Commonwealth, should amalgamate.

He may well have used the excuse to oppose Bolshevism later though.

UltimateMale

hinault wrote: »

Not really.
From his earliest statements, he always said that Britain and Germany were natural Allies, given their shared ethnicity.
(but for a man who fought in WW1, such statements appear crazy).

His stance evolved to the view that the German Reich and the Britain Empire/Commonwealth, should amalgamate.

He may well have used the excuse to oppose Bolshevism later though.

Interesting. I think he was just playing politics, he accepted Italy and supported Spain etc as allies. He also accepted fascist volunteers in Hungary, Romania etc.

I think he made an offer that Britian could hold onto it's overseas colonies if they let him create his colonies in Europe ?

hinault

UltimateMale wrote: »

Interesting. I think he was just playing politics, he accepted Italy and supported Spain etc as allies. He also accepted fascist volunteers in Hungary, Romania etc.

I think he made an offer that Britian could hold onto it's overseas colonies if they let him create his colonies in Europe ?

I think you're right.
I think his policies changed/altered as the circumstances of the war changed.

Stovepipe

Hi all,
Hitler was expected to invade on the Southern coast but what if he had done something like invade the Shetlands or Orkneys using airborne forces? Or even make landfall in Norfolk or further North, in Scotland, all of which were covered by scant forces.After Dunkirk, Britain was critically short of anti-tank guns and ammunition for same.If he had managed to get even a small amount of tanks and guns ashore, he would have caused havoc.As for the claim that the RN would have wiped out an invasion fleet, well, the RN was hurting after Dunkirk and would have had to move from the Orkneys to the Channel and operate well within range of German bombers.If they wanted to bring other ships up from the Med, they would have been spotted as soon as they set sail and engaged in the Bay of Biscay.
I really don't think that defeating a German invasion force in the Channel would have been a foregone conclusion.I think if Hitler had taken the gamble, he would have at least made landfall with paras /air-delivered troops and held out until a larger, Panzer force could be landed.
regards
Stovepipe

BullyBeef

[What if the Germans had invaded Britain, was it just sabre rattling or was their a real possibility of " fighting them on the beaches, in the streets " etc or would the army that was routed at Dunkirk have been again little more than a few days target practice for Gerry ? ]

I think the original question itself is a widely debatable topic, lets face it this has been discussed for many years by the common man to the world of academics .As is often the case the topic has shifted on its axis & I can understand why it’s a complex subject that has so many factors of influence as history stands then by shifting one small part everything else becomes less certain.
The history books & documents have a wealth of information , but as is often the way luck plays a part in most history, it could be the weather, tides, moon phase, misinterpret intelligence etc.
Going back to the BEF & Dunkirk It was on 12 June 1940, when the French Army, who were in command of the British Expeditionary Force, hoisted the White flag but the British soon took it down. [hooray]
Then the French Commanding Officer ordered the British to surrender

Operation Dynamo, the evacuation of around 350,000 British, French and Belgian troops from Dunkirk, enabled the Allies to continue the war .
Allies in Boulogne: principally 2nd Battalion, Irish Guards; 2nd Battalion, Welsh Guards; 275 Battery, 69th Battalion, Anti-Tank Regiment. Allies in Calais: 3rd Battalion, Royal Tank Regiment; 2nd Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps (Green Jackets); 1st Battalion, The Rifle Brigade, Queen Victoria's Rifles. Germans in Bolougne: 2nd Panzer Division. Germans in Calais: 1st and 10th Panzer Divisions.

Although supported by the Navy and RAF, they remained hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned. Both sides sustained heavy casualties and by the night of 26 May, Brigadier Nicholson, Commander of the Calais Garrison, was running out of men.
The spirited Allied defence of these two ports saw heavy casualties on each side, but slowed the German advance towards Dunkirk, thereby aiding the evacuation of Allied troops .There was approximately 200,000 Officers and other ranks fighting a rear guard action in France. There was also the 1st Armoured Division, which was under the command of General Evans. This Division had landed at Cherbourg, without it's Infantry, which had been sent to take the pressure off the Evacuation at Dunkirk .

Also 52 Canadian Armoured Division, which had also arrived in France in June 1940. Also there were other Battalions of Troops that had landed at Cherbourg, to be used as a second British Expeditionary Force.
The 51st Highland Division and the 1st Armoured Division, with Infantry Battalions were fighting a rear guard action. These were Labour Battalions but now they had become fighting Battalions.
They went into action with out dated weapons, such as rifles from 1914-1918 War. They did the job that they were supposed to do, when fired. They killed the enemy. The Bren gun and the anti tank rifle, which was useless. They had no mortars or hand grenades. There was a shortage of everything, such as spare parts for the anti tank rifles.
General Fortune, the Commander of what had remained of the British Expeditionary
Force, who had been trapped at St Valery in France, handed over the surrender of the British Expeditionary Forces in that area to Field Marshall Rommel. The German soldiers quickly took any jewellery, rings and any money
There was also the bombing and sinking of the Troop ship, the Lancastria, off the Port of St Nazaire in France. This had been sunk by a German Junker 88, from the German Air Force.
the Heroism, courage and sacrifice, that these men, of the British Expeditionary Force had made for their Country
Overhead were swarms of German bombers, German fighters machine-gunning the roads, anything that moved. There were swarms of dive bombers , of Junkers 87s, Junkers 88s, but very little RAF. In fact, subsequently, it was a regular complaint that was made by the British troops: ‘Where were the RAF over Dunkirk

Hitler didn’t 'let the British off' at Dunkirk. He stopped the Panzers because Goering assured him that the Luftwaffe could destroy the British without the Panzers help. At many points the Germans made errors. As did & would the allies.

BullyBeef

The following are war diary extracts from
F Baker,J,Bradley,R,Beesley,A,Heath:

Ships in the harbour were bombed, but most of the fires were caused by retreating British troops, who were burning lorries and petrol dumps and things. The whole thing a ring of fire.
We were ordered to leave all our vehicles in the field as apparently the RAF had been given the word to bomb the area after we had left and destroy the whole convoy including my Coles Crane. We were also ordered to smash up the equipment as best we could just in case the enemy got there before us.
Our officer led us down to the beach through some sand dunes where further down we got a first glimpse of the horror of Dunkirk and the true meaning of the word "RETREAT"
"TRAPPED" would have been a better word to describe the sight which met our eyes. We stood stock still in astonishment at the picture before us. There were lines of men waiting for evacuation by boat. Desperation filled our minds, fear and hopelessness left us speechless. We must all have been thinking that we didn't stand a chance and all appeared numb with apprehension. Many minutes went by whilst the men reluctantly took stock of the situation and then panic seized some of them.


I moved along the sand hills to Le Panne, a little to the right of Dunkirk, and there were hundreds and hundreds of soldiers on the sand. Ships were coming in, trying to pick up the soldiers. I thought, they'll never get these people off here — but we just had to be disciplined. I saw the most magnificent bit of British discipline there.

Unfortunately the dive bombers were knocking out the ships and terrible things were happening. I saw them hit a destroyer, packed with men on board, and it went on its side. Hundreds of men went into the sea, thrashing about there - many of them couldn't swim, I'm sure.
The next morning I think was 24 June. There were dead lying about, nobody could do anything about that, but there were some lads moving around, and some badly wounded.
When the day dawned we lined up as usual but noticed a change in our officer and he voiced his fears that we stood little chance whilst all together and finished off by saying "It's now every man for himself" "

For the record my own father & uncle who served most of the war together were members of a unit that couldn’t get off at Dunkirk but managed to escape further along the coast the words of every man for himself they was next to hear at Arnhem.

BullyBeef

As Dan Cruickshank said:
After the surrender of France to Germany in 1940, Britain was the Third Reich's next target.
So moving on from the Dunkirk evacuation brings forth the threat of invasion from German forces, The truth is it never happened because it was never really attempted by the Axis forces , For them to have launched such an invasion would have been very new ground, so far they had only struck into land masses & not a seaborne invasion, to attempt that with any amount of certainty would mean they would need to rule the air & sea ,this of course was attempted with what became known as the Battle of Britain being a turning point. The RAF were outnumbered about 4-1 & could not afford to loose anywhere near the plane numbers of the Germans.

Much of this was over southern England & its cities & Docks ,
Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain are sometimes sited as poor tactical decisions by Hitler as the leading causes of German defeat, but the decisions were heavily influenced by Goering (among others), who was seeking glory for his air forces.
16 July Adolf Hitler issued Directive Number 16. It read, 'As England, in spite of the hopelessness of her military position, has so far shown herself unwilling to come to any compromise, I have decided to begin to prepare for, and if necessary to carry out, an invasion of England... and if necessary the island will be occupied.'
Hitler from announcing on 16 July that an invasion force would be ready to sail by 15 August. The operation was given the codeword Sealion.
Planning an invasion and assembling a fleet and appropriate forces in a month was clearly a practical impossibility but timing was an essential part of the game of bluff that Hitler was playing. When the British realised what was coming their way their will to resist would crumble.So he thought.:rolleyes:

By the end of July the Royal Navy had to pull all its larger warships out of the channel because of the threat from German aircraft. All seemed to be going to plan; but perhaps to think this mounting military pressure and the prospect of invasion would break British spirits and make Operation Sealion unnecessary was a sign of German miscalculation of the British spirit .
On the home front things were moving with the invasion being taken seriously & plans being put into action .

LDV/Home Guard was a part of the strategy On 23 July, the force became known as the Home Guard, after Churchill coined the phrase during a BBC broadcast.
& during 1940 - 1941, approximately 40% of volunteers were World War One veterans. Over 1,600 members of the Home Guard were killed whilst on duty. Four of these were posthumously awarded medals.
Also guerrilla formations. . .known as "Auxiliary Units were formed. This force was the only one ever formed in any country before an invasion took place.
From what I hear these units are being organised with thoroughness and imagination and should, in the event of invasion, prove a useful addition to the regular forces."
Winston Churchill, to Anthony Eden, 25th September 1940.

Not forgetting that most of the Britsh home Fleet were removed to safety being held ready for any invasion, this British home Fleet was a force that dwarfed anything the Germans had available for a invasion. Meanwhile Germany was still fighting to gain the command of airspace .By the end of July neither the threat of imminent invasion nor offers by Germany of 'honourable' peace had done the trick.
Germany would actually have to execute one of its most difficult military operations imaginable: an invasion, launched across at least 20 miles of water, culminating in a landing on a fortified and desperately defended coast line.

On the last day of July Hitler held a meeting at the Berghof.
He was told of the difficulty in obtaining barges suitable to carry invasion troops and about the problems of massing troops and equipment while the German navy argued for the invasion front to be reduced from the proposed 200 miles (from Lyme Regis in the west to Ramsgate in the east) and for a postponement of the invasion until May 1941.Next the start date was postponed to September the 16th. it was decided that the Luftwaffe should tighten the screw by attempting to clear the channel of British warships and the skies over southeast England of British aircraft.
Hermann Goering saw no problems. The attack was due to start immediately, but bad weather delayed the German air offensive .
Operation Sealion also continued to rage during August between the German navy and the army. A meeting on 7 August revealed irreconcilable differences: 'I utterly reject the Navy's proposals [for landing on a narrow front],' exclaimed General Halder. 'I might just as well put the troops through a sausage machine.'
compromise was reached. On 13 August, Hitler agreed that the invasion front should to be narrowed, with the most westerly landing area being around Worthing. This meant that the only one German Army Group - Army Group A - would carry out the invasion.

The revised invasion plan was issued by the German High Command on 30 August Hitler appeared to agree with von Runstedt when, on 14 August - the day after he had agreed a narrower invasion front - Hitler told his generals that he would not attempt to invade Britain if the task seemed too dangerous. There were, said Hitler, other ways of defeating Britain. On 3 September, with the RAF still far from destroyed, Field Marshal Keitel, head of the Armed Forces High Command, delayed Sealion until 21 September, and then again until 27 September, the last time the tides would be right before the end of the year.
The day after this last postponement was announced, Goering launched his final major offensive to destroy RAF Fighter Command in daylight action. It was a dismal failure, with the Luftwaffe losing twice as many aircraft as its potential victim.

On 17 September - two days after Goering's defeat - Operation Sealion was postponed indefinitely. The plan was never to be revived. Hitler's attention was drawn increasingly to the east, and in June 1941 he invaded the Soviet Union. Up to this point Socialist Germany and Socialist Russia were on the same side and were splitting up the spoils of war. When German forces failed to gain air superiority over British sky’s, Germany had to look else where to expand further, This was a landmark of sorts ,as it was a huge result for Britain not only to remove the invasion threat but also for the first time to stop the advance & to keep control of the air space .Things could & would now change.

If Germany had successfully invaded Britain then they could have released a huge amount of troops that they had stationed in Norway to prevent another British Invasion. Hitler thought that Britain would invade Norway and kept over 300.000 men there to prevent this. So by the call that Hitler or Germany maid they left Britain as the build up zone & storage area for what was to become Overlord ,Simultaneously it now permitted Bomber command & the USAF the realistic chance to launch heavy continuous attacks into the German heartland. This meant further disruption & inconvenience to say the least to Germany that was already suffering the loss of a portion of its air force & skilled experienced pilots whilst starting to strike at Russia it found itself being stretched simply because of its failed attempt to invade Britain.

The timetable was out of synch & German resources were starting to be stretched between the need for fighters to be built & used against the bombing campaign & the urgent need for the same aircraft for the Russian campaign.



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kowloon

Several books written on this 'what-if' scenario, I remember reading one called 'Invasion 1940' by Peter Fleming, I think it's now published as 'Operation Sealion'.

Fratton Fred

@Stovepipe,

The RN would have been operating within the range of German Bombers, but they would have been supported by the RAF (a big chunk of the RN were in range anyway in Portsmouth). This was why the Battle of Britain started in the air, as Germany needed air superiority before an invasion could be launched.

BullyBeef

If the Germans launch the invasion without the air superiority & enough sea born craft its odds on it will fail & in that process loose ever more men ,equipment ,recourses & suffer any effects of a retreating army. Obviously that would possibly have further repercussions as to Germanys next strike be that again at Britain or at Russia.
Another view is that if the Germans had have held off until they had enough sea power ,air power & more time to formulate & better plan of invasion that was more agreeable to the major forces concerned ,then its possible they could have made landfall by sea & air ,its well known that they had good enough reconnaissance to acknowledge most of the defensive actions awaiting there arrival.


What’s to be remembered is it would have been there first such invasion of this war ,no practice or similar events for them to use as any help for the logistics & the reality of such a invasion.
[D-Day/Overlord for the Allies had been practised & troops specially trained for, also a number of previous sea born invasions beforehand] Germany would have non of that , it would also encounter a prepared nation as ready & waiting as was feasible, from well prepared sea defences, tank traps fuel, Harbour ,road, rail & airstrip sabotage/destruction ready to be carried out . Also the special prepared underground facilities designed for such a campaign. Once on the shores of Britain the way ahead was not going to be easy ,but I think if they could have landed & held enough ground to further reinforce themselves then inroads would have been made .
Possibly as has occurred before the Retreating/Fighting British would have moved to deeper regions of the Pennines, Wales ,Scotland ,These mountainous regions have proved problematic for great invaders before & would again slow down the advance & control of the German invading army .All of this becomes an ever greater drain on Germanys resources .
During this they will need to control the English channel long after the invasion not only by sea but also by air. The more resources engaged in that will rob them of the numbers & success they had latter on when engaging the Atlantic convoys.

Little things can reap huge rewards , Britain has no vast sweeping plains for heavily armoured Army’s & Tanks to quickly advance across , the roads network at that time was really never going to carry vast amounts of troops & scurrying refugees . Heres some of the things that were carried out abroad by a small number as sabotage on enemy soil, they same would be done on British turf by greater numbers ,until the rounding up & shooting of civilians in huge numbers & at that point its tricky to say how much further resistance would have carried on .
SOE's first headline success came in June 1941 when agents blew up the Pessac power station in France with a few well-placed explosive charges. The precision blast crippled work at a vital U-boat base in Bordeaux, and brought the all-electric railways in this region to an abrupt halt.
Czechoslovakia 1942 - an SOE hit squad assassinated Himmler's deputy, Reinhard Heydrich, with a grenade.
Greece 1942 - SOE agents blew up the Gorgopotamos rail bridge, which carried vital supplies for Rommel's desert army.
Norway 1943 - SOE agents destroyed the heavy water plant at Vemork, ending the Nazi atomic bomb programme.
After the killing of Heydrich, the SS exterminated 5,000 men women and children in
two villages near Prague
To avoid retribution, SOE carried out 'invisible sabotage', which left no trace and implicated nobody. One example is the sending of a supply train, loaded with tanks, to the wrong destination - using only a forged document.

One immediate target was the 'Das Reich' 2nd SS Panzer Division, which began to march north through France towards the Normandy beaches. SOE agents siphoned off all the axle oil from the division's rail transport cars, and replaced it with abrasive grease - all of them seized up.
[By Nigel Morris]
Its obvious that this way for Germany would have changed the Axsis war effort , all the vast cost in time, men, materials etc to invade a small totally unwelcoming country that was going to be difficult to achieve , to gain what for the Germans , no vast lands or resources that could be redirected into the Axis campaign. The Empire & its Allied forces still operating & America just itching for a door to open & get involved .Perhaps if the Germans had only waged its air war on Britain & spent its time planning to go into Russia better equipped & at a far more suitable time, then that campaign may have gone on to run a more complex route .The reality is by threatening to invade Britain & not attempting it for good reasons the Germans made other choices but in so doing had already wasted much time & materials.
[All this meant that, from Hitler's point of view, there was an alternative to invading Britain: he could invade the Soviet Union. Both Hitler and his military planners knew that Germany's best chance of victory was for the war in Europe to be finished swiftly.
Hubert Menzel was a major in the General Operations Department of the OKH (the Oberkommando des Heers, the German Army headquarters), and for him the idea of invading the Soviet Union in 1941 had the smack of cold, clear logic to it: 'We knew that in two years' time, that is by the end of 1942, beginning of 1943, the English would be ready, the Americans would be ready, the Russians would be ready too, and then we would have to deal with all three of them at the same time.... We had to try to remove the greatest threat from the East.... At the time it seemed possible.'] (The above taken from chapter one of 'War of the Century' by Laurence Rees, 1999.)

BullyBeef

Portsmouth harbour home to the ROYAL NAVY & has been so for generations , further to the west is Southampton harbour mostly a commercial docks . The seaborn route to these is via the western or eastern approaches of the solent .Standing guard over the solent is the 11miles by 22 of the Isle of Wight , since earler times the island had been installed with fortifications ,lookouts & torch fired signals at the ready to ignite of incoming invaders.
Ayone having been in the area would possibly notice some of the old sea forts etc, the old saying for retuning sailors was.
First the nab then the warner, then the blockhouse to ****house corner .During ww2 the Germans once broadcast that they had actually sunk the Isle of Wight truth is they nearly did .
It has stood guard for generations seeing the flagship Maryrose, HMS Victory ,Ark Royal medway queen [Dunkirk vessel] the D Day armada when the solent that separates the Island from Hampshiere was thick with boats & vessels of all types ready to sail as the biggest seaborn invasion fleet of living history. The island was part of the British deffence plans system from the Baatle of Britain with its Niton radar station[Ventnor] This was the device that actually helped the British forces turn the tide at the time.British radar ultimately neutralized the Luftwaffe advantages in strength, and the death blow to the British was never dealt.


On 8th August 1940 The Needles[Isle of Wight] garrison watched almost helplessly as the German Luftwaffe unleashed a devastating attack on coastal convoy CW9. The battle of convoy CW9 had started the night before but reached its climax in huge air battles over the Island's coastline from midday. When the leading ships of the battered convoy reached the Needles, the Germans launched their greatest attack, with 160 fighters, fighter bombers and Stuka dive bombers. Three RAF squadrons roared to the convoy's defence, and the sky above was twisted into a giant knot of 200 vapour trails while the ship's barrage balloons were shot down in flames and Stuka dive bombers screamed down to drop their bombs, raising pillars of water around the stricken ships. Two German and one British fighter crashed into the sea off The Needles. At the end of the day only four of the 29 ships were undamaged and seven had been sunk. Nineteen German and ten British aircraft had been destroyed.
Three days later another huge air battle took place when 176 German planes attacked the Dorset ports. One Messerschmitt and one Hurricane crashed into the sea off The Needles. On 25th August the RAF drove off a force of 150 German planes attacking Weymouth, one of the enemy's aircraft crashing nearby. Over the rest of August and September two German bombers and two Spitfires were shot down around The Needles.

The navy and RAF also arrived, to run the Port War Signal Station, in the Old Battery, and the radar. In 1941,
In 1943 the radar-guided guns twice opened fire on German torpedo boats attempting
a night attack, and the anti-aircraft guns damaged a Focke Wolf 190 fighter. By that time the Island had a garrison of 17,000 troops and thoughts turned to the Allied invasion of Europe. The Needles cliffs were used for training the troops for the invasion.
In June 1944 the people of the Island watched the extraordinary site of the Allied armada sailing away to the Normandy beaches, some 4,000 ships, the sky leaden with Allied warplanes. On the 5th June 1944 the Batteries watched part of the D-Day invasion force pass the Needles on its way to France

Alum Bay and The Needles by J.C.Medland (ISBN 1809 392 03)
A. T. Gilliam author

On August 18 1942 more than 6,000 Allied soldiers, almost 5,000 of whom were Canadians, sailed from Portsmouth, Southampton, Cowes[Isle of Wight] and the smaller Sussex harbours of Newhaven and Shoreham to attack the French port of Dieppe.
.S E. Saunders Ltd, East Cowes, Isle of Wight
Saunders Roe, commonly abbreviated Saro, concentrated on producing
Flying boats During the ww2 Saro manufactured super marine walrus & super marine sea otters & flying boats.
S" (SAVAGE) Class Destroyer ordered on 9th January 1941 from J Samuel Write at Cowes with the 5th Emergency Flotilla. The ship was laid down on 25th February 1942 and launched on 3rd April 1943.
On the 5th June FDTs 13 and 217 sailed from Cowes on the Isle of White. The following day FDT 216 sailed from Cowes with convoy 13 for Sword beach; there were 12 LCT's and one ML in that convoy, escorted by HMS Burdock and the Greek corvette, Tompazis. They joined the assault task force at 22 hours as part of the 9th flotilla
http://www.halcyon-class.co.uk/Specificati...cifications.htm
J,S Whites is still a ship/boat builders its produced many numerous war ships & reffited/repaired many obviously during ww2 it was a very active place & very fortunately for the towns people of both West & East Cowes [Isle of Wight ] had two polish ships in being worked on during the cowes blitz these boats & gunners are held in high esteem for the work & cover they produced on a night when the Island & the towns of Cowes were heavily attacked .The island had many troops stationed there along with various allied navys for various times but it also provided the point for PLUTO the oil/water supply line for overlord. Compared to London & Coventry its air attacks don’t compare but its part in the war effort & Navy protection should not be overlooked.With Portsmouth & Southampton being regular targets the Island was the first & last obstacle that the German airfoce constantly encounterd.

Northern Ireland a place that was to be involved in the ww2 effort by Allied forces.
Here was a city which had one of the largest, most well-known, shipyards in the world, which manufactured planes, tanks and armaments and which defended by just 7 anti-aircraft guns and 4,000 Anderson shelters.
At the same time, the people of Northern Ireland were caught up in the mailstrom that was the Second World War. It was a testing time for the fledling Northern State as its rulers strove to prove their loyalty to the United Kingdom. By providing an industrial base and a vital Atlantic base area, Northern Ireland was deeply involved in the Second World War. They sadly too, suffered the direct effects of modern warfare.
RAF and Commonwealth Air Force Units Based in Northern Ireland during the war.
59 Sqn Coastal Command
120 Sqn RAF Coastal Command
133 Sqn RAF Fighter Command
134 Sqn RAF Fighter Command
143 Sqn RAF Coastal Command
153 Sqn RAF Fighter Command
209 Sqn RAF Coastal Command
220 Sqn RAF Coastal Command
231 Sqn RAF Army Co-Operation Command
245 Sqn RAF Fighter Command (Fighter)
252 Sqn RAF, (Search and Rescue)
281 Sqn RAF, Coastal Command (Meteorological)
422 Sqn, RCAF Coastal Command
423 Sqn, RCAF Coastal Command
502 Sqn RAF, Coastal Command
518 Sqn RAF, Coastal Command
1402 Flight RAF, Coastal Command (Meteorological)
http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/eire.htm

Norwayviking

Judgement Day wrote: »

It is a well known fact that the British Government had contingency plans to continue the fight from Canada if the UK was overwhelmed but, in any event, the price the Germans would have had to pay would have been enormous, and without air cover, impossible. There is no question that Britain and the Empire would have continued to fight on and sueing for peace would not have happened. The only way the Germans could ever have overwhelmed Britain or held Europe would have been to develop the A-bomb before anybody else. That they didn't was due in no small part to British Commando and RAF attacks on heavy water production facilities in Norway. The wicked old Brits - it would have been better to live under the Nazi jackboot with the threat of nuclear anniliation hanging over any country that didn't tow the line.

The heavy water sabotage mission was done by the Norwegian resistance,in British uniforms.
The first commando raid was done by british commandoes,but ended in disaster because the glider collided into a mountain.
And the bomb raids where done by the yanks,but with little effect.

drakshug

I think the Germans would have had a fight on their hands.
The south of England had the defensive lines and the further North they went towards Scotland, the more partisan friendly the terrain becomes.
My Great Uncle was a Bisley shot - one of the 100 best in Britain and he had his tenement window sandbagged and was ready to take pot shots at any Germans coming into Glasgow. He wasn't alone.

TerrorFirmer

drakshug wrote: »

I think the Germans would have had a fight on their hands.
The south of England had the defensive lines and the further North they went towards Scotland, the more partisan friendly the terrain becomes.
My Great Uncle was a Bisley shot - one of the 100 best in Britain and he had his tenement window sandbagged and was ready to take pot shots at any Germans coming into Glasgow. He wasn't alone.

British strength lay in the RAF and RN - in an actual ground war, especially considering the requisite for the invasion would mean Luftwaffe air superiority, there wasn't a hope of Britain resisting the Wehrmacht. They were terribly stuck for equipment, to make matters worse - it would have been nigh on impossible to resist a blitzkrieg when you've literally only got several hundred tanks - a lot of them obsolete - left in service.