4x4 For Snow + Ice

Satts

I am looking for a recommendation for a secondhand diesel 4x4 suitable for snow + Ice.
We are living 15 miles from an N road, most of which is uphill with some with some parts fairly steep.

What would be suitable to get uphill in snow + Ice and something with extra low gears for going downhill slowly on ice ?

Could stock up on the basics and just stay at home from work but the main reason for looking in to this is my wife has a long term illness and may need to go to hospital at a moments notice.
Wasn't a problem up untill now but don't fancy driving another 4 weeks in snow + ice next winter in our 2 wheel drives, praying we don't need the hospital.

Am I wasting my time looking at medium sized vehicles(2.0/2.5L Diesel) such as Freelander or Ford Maverick or should I start looking straight at Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols ?

101sean

Depends what else you're likely to need the vehicle for and how much depth of snow you're likely to get. Any 4 wheel drive car will work OK on snow if not too deep or ice with the correct tyres and decent driver skill. 4wd doesn't make you invincible, you still have to stop! Too low a gear going downhill on ice will result in you skating, it's a hard thing to do to accelerate slightly to make the wheels catch up :eek:

Sorry to hear of your wife's illness, does it affect her mobility? Can be a climb up into a big 4x4 but some may find it easier than getting down into a low car.

Depending on your budget, there's a wide choice of new 4x4 cars like Skoda Octavia and Yeti. If looking for secondhand you're probably more restricted to traditional 4x4s here. If you trawl the various recent threads here there's a lot of advice but most veer towards a Japanese/Korean 4x4, either soft roaders like Hyundai Santa Fe and the like or full size like Landcruisers. One other thing to consider is a big 4x4 will guzzle diesel compared to a car for the sake of a couple of weeks security. Some of us don't care because we love them or they're essential but it adds up.

Have a think about what you want and how much you have to spend and you'll get some good pointers from here

Satts

Thanks 101sean,

Mobility getting in and out of vehicles not affected.
If our car was stuck somewhere, walking more than a couple of hundred feet might be a problem. Walking up a hill would be a no no.

peasant

The big bruisers are fairly heavy yokes. 2 tons of metal get up to quite some speed once they're sliding

A Suzuki Grand Vitara diesel (2.0) might answer very well.

But whatever you buy ..don't spend all your budget, keep a few hundred aside for a set of winter tyres with wheels ...they REALLY make a difference

Mr.Boots

Subaru forester with A/T tyres.....must be a good compromise???

Satts

Thanks Peasant.

Do the winter tyres help with the snow or ice or both ?

fonecrusher1

Satts as 101sean says if its a real off-roader you're looking for & not a mickey moues soft-roader then you cant go too far wrong with the 3 ltr diesel Toyota Landcruiser.
Others such as the Mitsubishi Pajero, Land Rover Discovery & Nissan Terrano fall in the same category & each has their own advantages & disadvantages but the Landcruiser is a pretty safe bet. Boring but it does what it says on the tin!

Again as mentioned in the above post expect only modest fuel economy but if its peace of mind you're looking for then its hard to beat a decent 4x4 with a separate transfer box with diff-lock & Hi/Low gear ratios to get you out of the tough stuff.

Satts

I presume the separate transfer box and diff-lock help if more than one wheel has no traction ?

peasant

Satts wrote: »

Thanks Peasant.

Do the winter tyres help with the snow or ice or both ?

Real, glassy black ice defeats any tyre ...on everything else proper winter tyres give a great advantage over normal summer tyres.

Btw ...the Subary Foresters and Legacys in the manual, non turbo versions also have a low geared transfer box (at least they used to have).

Might be ideal for your situation (and for pulling a trailer up a steep hill / out a muddy field)

peasant

Satts wrote: »

I presume the separate transfer box and diff-lock help if more than one wheel has no traction ?

The transfer box has nothing to do with traction, the difflock does.

But be warned ...locking diffs on very slippery ice/snow can actually cause wheelspin as well. On ice and snow the difflock should only be used when you're actually stuck already with one front and rear wheel each spinning.

(my van has two difflocks, front and rear ...on a snow/ice covered road (i.e on a non-bumpy surface) I'm yet to need a difflock)

fonecrusher1

Satts wrote: »

I presume the separate transfer box and diff-lock help if more than one wheel has no traction ?

Thats exactly right. The one thing i will say is if you are considering getting a regular 4x4 & haven't owned one before please take the time to learn how to use the 4wd system in it.
Sorry if im coming across as condescending but you can wreck the transmission if you use diff-lock on a hard surface as it locks all 4 wheels to the same speed.
Maybe you know a lot more about 4x4's than me? trust me im no expert!!
Have you owned a 4x4 in the past?

Satts

Haven't owned or even driven a 4x4 before.
That's why I've come on here first to learn, before I buy anything.

the mucker

peasant wrote: »

The big bruisers are fairly heavy yokes. 2 tons of metal get up to quite some speed once they're sliding

A Suzuki Grand Vitara diesel (2.0) might answer very well.

But whatever you buy ..don't spend all your budget, keep a few hundred aside for a set of winter tyres with wheels ...they REALLY make a difference

have a Suzuki Grand Vitara diesel (2.0) myself and found it absolutely fantastic in the snow. it has a low range transfer box and when four wheel drive is engaged it seems to engage a semi difflock as wheels tend to tear on hard surfaces. not sure how this compare to full difflocks in big 4x4s.also will do 35mpg even with hard driving. While I found this great in Snow I would much rather have a car with traction control on frosty or icy roads. Most true four wheel drives are a disaster on slippy roads in 2wd

fonecrusher1

satts Haven't owned or even driven a 4x4 before.
That's why I've come on here first to learn, before I buy anything.

You've done the right thing.
I could have wrecked my own 4x4 last year when i unknowingly selected diff-locked 4wd & proceeded to drive in this mode on regular roads which as i now know can cause the dreaded transmission bind which can cost hundreds to correct.
101sean & others probably know a fair bit about 4x4ing so ask away & we'll try to answer your questions.:)

Satts

the mucker wrote: »

when four wheel drive is engaged it seems to engage a semi difflock as wheels tend to tear on hard surfaces. not sure how this compare to full difflocks in big 4x4s.

Could this have a "Limited Slip Diff", something I saw while browsing the internet ?

peasant

What you want for on-road driving (in snow, ice, flooding and muck) is permanent all wheel drive. Something like a Subaru, Audi quattro, VW 4motion, Merc 4-matic etc.

You have no buttons to press, no levers to pull, all four wheels are permananently driven, giving you double the grip all the time.

Some of the "real" ofrroaders also have permanent 4WD, others have selectable 4WD. Selectable 4WD means that there is no centre differential, so the 4WD can not be used on dry roads

Satts

the mucker wrote: »

have a Suzuki Grand Vitara diesel (2.0) myself

Do you find the Suzuki reliable ?

Satts

peasant wrote: »

What you want for on-road driving (in snow, ice, flooding and muck) is permanent all wheel drive. Something like a Subaru, Audi quattro, VW 4motion, Merc 4-matic etc.

You have no buttons to press, no levers to pull, all four wheels are permananently driven, giving you double the grip all the time.

Maybe this is what I want.

Would lets say an Audi quattro get up a slippy hill just as good as lets say a Toyota Land Cruiser, Or would the Land Cruiser have the edge ?

peasant

Satts wrote: »

Maybe this is what I want.

Would lets say an Audi quattro get up a slippy hill just as good as lets say a Toyota Land Cruiser, Or would the Land Cruiser have the edge ?

have a looksee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyKstZ6a5ag

101sean

Keep forgetting about the Suzuki Grand Vitara, big enough for a decent ride but not so big a smaller engine can haul it around economically(ish!) Being Jap it's probably totally reliable :rolleyes:

Subaru have only just started fitting diesels haven't they? The boxer petrol is a torquey motor but thirsty. They used to build some good no nonsense 4wd cars but seemed to have moved upmarket.

Don't worry too much about 4wd sytems yet, there's so many variations between manufacturers on how its's done from basic pull a lever to an ecu doing it all for you, all will perform reasonably well in ice and snow provided you know how to use it (many have never read the manual and haven't a clue :rolleyes:) The majority of 4x4s these days are permanently in 4wd, even then how the power is split differs between makes. Limited slip diff is like an automatic diff lock and is used both in transfer boxes (sometimes as a viscous coupling) and axles by different manufacturers.

What will stop an allroader like the Quattro and other 4wd cars is deep snow, if it came to just ice I suspect the Quattro would win with it's more sophisticated 4wd and traction control systems.

Confusing isn't it! Try and narrow it down to what type of vehicle you need, it's an expensive purchase to get wrong.

Satts

Very Good peasant.

Surprised the Patrol didn't go all the ways.

E39MSport

This wudda....

Cheapish too without mods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hrtE0SQFWE

CJhaughey

A lot will depend on your choice of rubber as well.
I towed a car up an Ice covered hill 2 weeks ago, I could hardly walk on the road but the Landcruiser pulled an Avensis with 3 people in it uphill.
Bridgestone A/T is what I was using and I have to say I was very impressed with the grip they had.
I would not recommend you get a Landcruiser if you don't have to tow anything, they aren't cars more a very refined light truck and the fuel consumption is correspondingly higher than a car.
Hard to justify for day to day running when Ice or snow doesn't impede you.

fonecrusher1

CJhaughey wrote: »

A lot will depend on your choice of rubber as well.
I towed a car up an Ice covered hill 2 weeks ago, I could hardly walk on the road but the Landcruiser pulled an Avensis with 3 people in it uphill.
Bridgestone A/T is what I was using and I have to say I was very impressed with the grip they had.
I would not recommend you get a Landcruiser if you don't have to tow anything, they aren't cars more a very refined light truck and the fuel consumption is correspondingly higher than a car.
Hard to justify for day to day running when Ice or snow doesn't impede you.

Its true enough about tyre choice alright.
I have Kumho KL71 Mud terrains on my own car & i wasn't expecting them to be that good on snow & ice but they have been brilliant for the winter. They're meant for mud but also seem to have good grip on the cold stuff as well.

I think the Landcruiser that the OP has been advised to look into is a 3.0 td landcruiser Colorado not the much bigger Amazon with the big 4 litre engines. And yes it would be difficult to justify buying one of those monsters.

Satts

Looking at examples on the net of all vehicles suggested at the moment.

It's a pity Subaru have only just started doing the Forester in Diesel, probably the vehicle I am looking for.

At the moment a Audi quattro or Suzuki Grand Vitara look to be most suitable.
I saw an A4 quattro, an estate quattro and an A6 quattro on the net, I suppose the higher the model the better capabillity of the car on icy slopes.

Thinking of buying a small to medium sized caravan in the next year or two. How would a Suzuki Grand Vitara 2.0L Diesel fare pulling a caravan ? (Probably just as good if not better than the Subaru or Audi I suppose.)

Mr.Boots

Ill say it again............Subaru Forester with A/T tyres

Satts

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Ill say it again............Subaru Forester with A/T tyres

Thanks Mr.Boots but at the moment I'm looking for a second hand diesel.

Just wondering what's the pulling power like and fuel economy of a petrol Forester ?

Mr.Boots

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/summary.aspx?model=831

what do you wanna spend?

Satts

Mr.Boots wrote: »

what do you wanna spend?

Between 10 and 15 grand.

Mr.Boots

Are you doing a big enough mileage to make a big diesel worthwhile?

Satts

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Are you doing a big enough mileage to make a big diesel worthwhile?

Probably not. Thats why I'm veering towards the Audi quattro or Suzuki Grand Vitara. Living on a very high spot with lots of steep hills. Wife has longterm illness. Don't want to go through another 4 weeks next year of wondering if we need to go hospital, can we get there ? Only for that we could just stock up and sit out the cold snap.

Do you own a Forrester ? Does it really only give an average of 29mpg ?

CJhaughey

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Its true enough about tyre choice alright.
I have Kumho KL71 Mud terrains on my own car & i wasn't expecting them to be that good on snow & ice but they have been brilliant for the winter. They're meant for mud but also seem to have good grip on the cold stuff as well.

I think the Landcruiser that the OP has been advised to look into is a 3.0 td landcruiser Colorado not the much bigger Amazon with the big 4 litre engines. And yes it would be difficult to justify buying one of those monsters.

Funny enough there is a 3 peak with snowflake marking on the side of the BFG AT indicating that they are intended for use in severe snow conditions as well.
There is not a huge difference in fuel consumption between the 80/100 series 4.2td and the 90 series 3.0 Td, believe it or not.
90 series ~25-28mpg 130bhp
80 series ~22-25mpg 168bhp
100 series ~18-24mpg 201bhp

all dependent on tyres and driving style obviously.

Rujib1

Am I right in believing that you only have the option to engage four wheel drive or not as the case may be, on the bog standard commercial 4x4 jeeps, like Landcruiser, Pajero, Trooper?
In other words you do not have the option to switch on or of diff lock as a seperate function!

Thanks
r1

peasant

Rujib1 wrote: »

Am I right in believing that you only have the option to engage four wheel drive or not as the case may be, on the bog standard commercial 4x4 jeeps, like Landcruiser, Pajero, Trooper?
In other words you do not have the option to switch on or of diff lock as a seperate function!

Thanks
r1

Ok ...this needs a bit of explaining:

On a 4x4 there can be three differentials: one at every axle (to allow the wheels of the one axle to go at different speeds, i.e. around corners) and one in the centre to allow for speed differences between the axles.

Permanent 4WD vehicles all have to have a center differential in some shape or form, otherwise the drivetrain would wind up and break.
On permanent 4WD cars this differential (or viscous coupling or torsen differential or whatever it is) usually is not lockable by hand ...no switch or lever. Some of them still lock close to 100% by other, automatic electronic or mechanical means, others don't depending on the system used.
Only "proper" 4x4's get a lockable (switch or lever) centre diff.

Then there are 4x4's with selectable 4WD. They have no center differential ...you press the switch/pull the lever and front and rear axles turn at the same speed.
This is great off road but can't be used on dry tarmac


Front and rear difflocks are for serious offroading and by no means standard on every 4x4

HashSlinging

OP stick a set of winter tyres on this and keep the change for a larder..

Slidey

That could be a runner. I see he has dropped his price by 3k from when he took the photos!

I suppose 30mpg in that would be wishful thinking?

Actually, something like this looks nice.

101sean

Would maintenance be a potential costly issue on Audis? Heard that the Vorsprung durch Teknic means a dealer having to remove half the front of the vehicle to change a headlight bulb :eek: Could be talking out of my backside but worth checking you can afford to maintain whatever you buy.

emaherx

I think the best value for what you want is a Suzuki Grand Vitara. its a very under estimated 4x4. Vitara's will go nearly anywhere that the big 4x4's will (just not pulling any weight), and are still small enough to use as a practical every day car.

I'd emagine that you would get a much fresher car for your money with a Vitara than you will with the Audi, plus parts/service will probably be cheaper.

Rujib1

101sean wrote: »

Would maintenance be a potential costly issue on Audis? Heard that the Vorsprung durch Teknic means a dealer having to remove half the front of the vehicle to change a headlight bulb :eek: Could be talking out of my backside but worth checking you can afford to maintain whatever you buy.

This thing has no electronics never mind "Vorsprung durch Teknik", and will go anywhere. Driven here by the one and only Henry Ford!

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,213971.0/topicseen.html

R1

peasant

emaherx wrote: »

I think the best value for what you want is a Suzuki Grand Vitara. its a very under estimated 4x4. Vitara's will go nearly anywhere that the big 4x4's will (just not pulling any weight).

Don't worrry, it'll still pull your future caravan, OP

The diesel Vitaras can pull up to 2 tons (in some cases 2.2 tons) according to Suzuki specs.
A 1300-1500 kg caravan should be well within its capabilities.

CJhaughey

I agree on the Vitara, plus the Diesel also has a low range and lockable centre diff.

E39MSport

CJhaughey wrote: »

Funny enough there is a 3 peak with snowflake marking on the side of the BFG AT indicating that they are intended for use in severe snow conditions as well.
There is not a huge difference in fuel consumption between the 80/100 series 4.2td and the 90 series 3.0 Td, believe it or not.
90 series ~25-28mpg 130bhp
80 series ~22-25mpg 168bhp
100 series ~18-24mpg 201bhp

all dependent on tyres and driving style obviously.

My 90 gave me about 30 mpg and my 4.2td 100 gives me about 22 in the same conditions. That's pretty poor but it weighs almost 3 tonne.

KoNiT

hi, i've owned a forester 2.0T - 2001 model for 5 years. Great car, very comfortable..ery fast too..brought my 70+ Da for a spin to Dublin & back with no complaint "it's grand an comfy, eh?.. christ is that the speed!!" but it likes petrol.
I found it invaluable during the snowy season we had. I'm in Mayo & had heavy snow since before xmas, the car runs hot, exceptional heating through vents, heated seats etc, car defrosted & toasty in 10 mins from -7-10C cold start,.. loves petrol btw..
i used to tow a caravan with the Forester & did it perfecly, but lusted after more petrol!!

You'll get 25-35mpg out of the Turbo Forester depending on Right foot- there is a non turbo, which would be just as capable but not as thirsty!
I know where Mr Boots is coming from as it is hard to part with it.. it is on the expensive side to run, but its sturdy, has a huge boot & has a lot of toys.
+ it's lighter than a lot of 4x4's for the 170 bhp...
There's the outback, now available in diesel too... hell of a car.. a worthy 4x4 estate but out of the price range..

Drove an xl7 Suzuki, found that capable & very economical, but seats not as comfy as the subaru which likes petrol. standard Grand vitara the same but short wheelbase made the car feel rocky "front to back", not a nice sensation.. but that could have been that particular car (not new!), try it & see..

I saw an A4 quattro, an estate quattro and an A6 quattro on the net, I suppose the higher the model the better capabillity of the car on icy slopes

. Wheel base is longer, they'd have the same toys after that.

i wouldn't spend a whole heap on whatever machine you pick, but keep a set of snow tyres. During real icy conditions (up & downhill I was driving on the edge of the road to get grip, very close to stone walls & dikes (ice is ice on 45 deg slope) you will end up doing the same.. so prepare to damage vehicle!!

I'd keep away from the landcruiser type too due to weight.. ice is ice, whatever grip you have on the side of a hill in a light vehicle...(I'm prepared to be shot down for that one!!)

Most 4x4's will not give you more than 35 mpg bar the suzuki. "softroaders" will.. but I don't think your after that type, crv, etc...

but what about the toyota rav 4?

101sean

but what about the toyota rav 4?

Check it has 4wd, there's a 2wd version :rolleyes:

Has the Nissan Qashqai been around long enough to be a reasonable price?

Satts

Rujib1 wrote: »

This thing has no electronics never mind "Vorsprung durch Teknik", and will go anywhere. Driven here by the one and only Henry Ford!

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,213971.0/topicseen.html

R1

These yokes are the business.

Satts

KoNiT wrote: »

but what about the toyota rav 4?

How does the Toyota rav4 compare with the Suzuki Grand Vitara ?

emaherx

peasant wrote: »

Don't worrry, it'll still pull your future caravan, OP

The diesel Vitaras can pull up to 2 tons (in some cases 2.2 tons) according to Suzuki specs.
A 1300-1500 kg caravan should be well within its capabilities.

I ment it won't pull much weight off road compared to larger 4x4's.
Of coarse they are ideal cars for towing horse boxes (or caravans:D).

Diesel Vitaras have a good 4 wheel drive system, and are a nice car on the road and even peform quite well off road.

Rav 4's don't compare not even 4WD versions.
however they would probably do nicely for the OP wants out of it.

fonecrusher1

E39MSport wrote: »

My 90 gave me about 30 mpg and my 4.2td 100 gives me about 22 in the same conditions. That's pretty poor but it weighs almost 3 tonne.

Yeah i was just about to say this! Theres no way a 90 series gets a maximum of 28 mpg.
My surf has the same 3 Ltr Td as the early landcruiser colorado's & i can get up to 30/31 mpg & no lower than 25 mpg.

The thing about pulling a caravan with a suzuki Vitara is yes it will do it but is not a little bit out of its depth pulling such a heavy load. If the OP is planning on doing some caravaning in the future then that has changed the criteria a lot. Maybe he is better off with a full size 4x4? They really are the best for towing.

CJhaughey

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Yeah i was just about to say this! Theres no way a 90 series gets a maximum of 28 mpg.
My surf has the same 3 Ltr Td as the early landcruiser colorado's & i can get up to 30/31 mpg & no lower than 25 mpg.

Don't forget The surf has part time 4wd unlike the 90's full time 4wd and is also a lot more aeordynamic than the 90s, Not saying you can't get more than 28 but the average is around 28

fonecrusher1

CJhaughey wrote: »

Don't forget The surf has part time 4wd unlike the 90's full time 4wd and is also a lot more aeordynamic than the 90s, Not saying you can't get more than 28 but the average is around 28

Actually in hindsight i forgot that i usually drive around in 2wd so that probably accounts for my slightly better fuel economy. As you said the 90 series is full-time 4wd.
Good Point.:)

the mucker

Satts wrote: »

Do you find the Suzuki reliable ?

So far so good Bought with 40000 miles now have over 90,000. Repairs to date rear wheel bearing (my own fault for towing unsprung small agri trailer) and the pulley flew off the alternator. Beware suzuki main dealers are not cheap for parts. I have a good local mechanic and bought some fan belts and timing kits either spurious or from UK which reduces servicing costs. Mien is three valve/cylinder peugeot engine. 4 vaave engine is nicer. new model (POST 06) with renault engine is troublesome.