Thinking of being a single parent

LegacyUser

Hi
I'm a single gay man. I'm pushing 29, own a home and have a good job.
I am seriously thinking about having a kid using a surrogate and egg donor - perhaps in India.
Without getting into the ethical issues of concerns for the surrogate, or possible legal complications, Can you give me your views on my plan?

ash23

Honestly, being a single parent is hard. Very very hard. I don't plan on doing it again. Unless it was due to a failed relationship then I couldn't help it. But no way would I choose to be a single parent again.
It's a lot of responsibility and a lot of work. It can be overwhelming at times. Obviously it's wonderful too, but your life is never your own again. You can never make a decision based on what you want, it always has to be whats in the childs best interests.

Also, my daughters dad isn't involved and she is always asking questions about him, ones that I cannot answer and thats hard.

You're only 29. Relax. You've 10 or more years to meet Mr. Right and plan a child.
Also, it will be harder to date and meet Mr. right with a child in tow. Some people are put off by single parents. It;s harder to get out there to meet people etc. Would your family be supportive? Your friends? I honestly think if it weren't for my family and friends I'd never make it.

I would never recommend someone choose the life of a single parent. If it happens then of course it's managable and do-able and worthwhile. But personally I feel it's best to plan a child within a loving relationship.

LegacyUser

Thanks ash23.

I just want to be a young-ish parent. Financially, it would be tough but I could manage. I just always thought of myself as a father but it's only in the past 6 months that I realise the best time is now when I have plenty of energy.

I haven't completely given up on a relationship! All I know is I would prefer to integrate a relationship with my life rather than put my life on hold until I'm in a relationship with someone who wants kids.

magneticimpulse

I dont know why you have chosen India as a place for your childs birth? For one they are a very religious country and I am not sure on the implications of an Indian woman (most are married off) giving her child to a gay man? I assume you have looked into all of this aspect.

Maybe you dont need to have a "surrogate" mother. Could you think about adoption? Well again, being a single parent there might be a complication in that, I dont know the requirements, but worth a look.

Or is there a female friend here who would like to have your child? One of my best friends told me he was gay today (really had no idea after 12 years...he live abroad). Anyway one of the things I asked, was what about having children in the future? He said he didnt know how it would work out, as he said he would love to have children. I kinda joked and said i would have a kid with him. But in a way it was a serious offer. I have a few female friends who have just not met the right guy and we all spoke about how we would think about "asking a guy friend to help". It might not be the typical conventional way, but prob the easiest way, and that way there is still a mother/father figure. If you did have such a close female friend, you could also watch the baby grow and be present for when its born.

I understand its really a hard job, but you seem really commited to having a child and wanting one. I dont think why it should be any different to other people wanting to have childrean.

tenchi-fan

It's a good idea but you really need to consider the difficulties you may face as a single gay man raising a mixed race child in Ireland.

LegacyUser

magneticimpulse wrote: »

I dont know why you have chosen India as a place for your childs birth? For one they are a very religious country and I am not sure on the implications of an Indian woman (most are married off) giving her child to a gay man? I assume you have looked into all of this aspect.

Maybe you dont need to have a "surrogate" mother. Could you think about adoption? Well again, being a single parent there might be a complication in that, I dont know the requirements, but worth a look.

Or is there a female friend here who would like to have your child? One of my best friends told me he was gay today (really had no idea after 12 years...he live abroad). Anyway one of the things I asked, was what about having children in the future? He said he didnt know how it would work out, as he said he would love to have children. I kinda joked and said i would have a kid with him. But in a way it was a serious offer. I have a few female friends who have just not met the right guy and we all spoke about how we would think about "asking a guy friend to help". It might not be the typical conventional way, but prob the easiest way, and that way there is still a mother/father figure. If you did have such a close female friend, you could also watch the baby grow and be present for when its born.

I understand its really a hard job, but you seem really commited to having a child and wanting one. I dont think why it should be any different to other people wanting to have childrean.

Thanks for the replies!

India is one of the few countries that allows commercial surrogacy for single men.
I'm not interested in adoption.

It's not enough to "watch the baby grow and be present for when its born" because I actually want to raise the child - not just to be an uncle figure. I would not feel comfortable asking a woman to give up her baby if she both donated the egg and carried it (I don't think any woman could do that and I wouldn't expect her to.)

The cost of an egg donor and ivf in ireland is prohibitively expensive and even then only the surrogate would have automatic parental rights.. any agreement would have no legal bearing and if the Irish surrogate decided to keep the baby the best I could hope for would be visitation rights and a bill for child support.

magneticimpulse

bloop wrote: »

Thanks for the replies!

India is one of the few countries that allows commercial surrogacy for single men.
I'm not interested in adoption.

It's not enough to "watch the baby grow and be present for when its born" because I actually want to raise the child - not just to be an uncle figure. I would not feel comfortable asking a woman to give up her baby if she both donated the egg and carried it (I don't think any woman could do that and I wouldn't expect her to.)

The cost of an egg donor and ivf in ireland is prohibitively expensive and even then only the surrogate would have automatic parental rights.. any agreement would have no legal bearing and if the Irish surrogate decided to keep the baby the best I could hope for would be visitation rights and a bill for child support.

I wasnt expecting you to be an uncle figure. I was suggesting it as a full father figure. If my gay friend asked me I would definitely consider having a baby for him! Although not typical in society it could be a possible option.

The India scenario sounds a bit ify. How would the medical care and welfare of the mother compare to that of one in Europe or the US? Would the baby be half Indian? Could the baby cope living in Ireland being half Indian and to a gay Irish parent?

As for rights of the child to an Irish person? (I presume you are Irish). I watched a TV programme a few years ago about a man who had about 3 children with a surrogate woman in the US. Im not sure if they were living in UK or Ireland. But there was alot of paper work which this guy had to jump through to keep the children. One reason was that they had US passports, and I think the US government wanted the children to be returned to the US. Will the child be able to get full passport and rights/visa to live in Ireland, after having an Indian Passport if its parent is Irish?

Im sure you looked into all this, as you seemed well up on the topic. But I still think the easier route is to find a surrogate mother/friend in Ireland.

ash23

bloop wrote: »

Thanks ash23.

I just want to be a young-ish parent. Financially, it would be tough but I could manage. I just always thought of myself as a father but it's only in the past 6 months that I realise the best time is now when I have plenty of energy.

I haven't completely given up on a relationship! All I know is I would prefer to integrate a relationship with my life rather than put my life on hold until I'm in a relationship with someone who wants kids.

OK, a few questions for you. Have you looked into childcare expenses in your area? Is your job 9-5 ish, mon to fri? Is it secure?

I personally was 20 when I had my daughter. She's 7 now. I fully intend on leaving it for a good few years before having another. If I were still single at 38 I may consider having a baby alone. But until then I would rather wait until I had the support of a partner to help me through it.
Not saying I need a partner but seriously, have a browse on some single parenting forums and check out the downsides as well as the ups. It's exhausting no matter what age you are.
You also dont mention whether you have family support and whether your friends have kids. Because much as your single friends will promise to be there for you, I found that they drifted away when I was tied to the house with a small baby.
It took a good 5 years before I got some sort of semblance of freedom again. People don't like babysitting toddlers lol.

I'm not trying to be totally negative here. I love my life now and I wouldn't send my daughter back. But I wouldn't make the same decision again, nor would I want her to make that decision either.

unreggd

Regarding Indian surrogacy, India has some of the best doctors and healthcare in the world
And it's substantially cheaper there

I agree with the comments saying it will be hard, but at the same time, rewarding things are never meant to be easy, and I think for the OP, havin a hard life as a single parent is a lot better than not being one at all

I still think you should wait though OP, for reasons listed in ash23's original post

Good luck

LegacyUser

magneticimpulse wrote: »

The India scenario sounds a bit ify. How would the medical care and welfare of the mother compare to that of one in Europe or the US? Would the baby be half Indian? Could the baby cope living in Ireland being half Indian and to a gay Irish parent?

I hope so!

magneticimpulse wrote: »

As for rights of the child to an Irish person? (I presume you are Irish). I watched a TV programme a few years ago about a man who had about 3 children with a surrogate woman in the US. Im not sure if they were living in UK or Ireland. But there was alot of paper work which this guy had to jump through to keep the children. One reason was that they had US passports, and I think the US government wanted the children to be returned to the US. Will the child be able to get full passport and rights/visa to live in Ireland, after having an Indian Passport if its parent is Irish?

Im sure you looked into all this, as you seemed well up on the topic. But I still think the easier route is to find a surrogate mother/friend in Ireland.

The sitatuion there is iffy too unfortunately. The Irish authorities would consider the surrogate (and her husband) the natural parents, while the indian authorities would consider me the natural father and would not issue an indian passport (but would facilitate travel documents). It's a headache but where there's a will there's a way. I could apply for a court order granting me guardianship or adopt the child under Irish law if necessary and already be the guardian under Indian law (just as well as India doesn't allow single men to adopt).

Ash23, that's a lot for your input. I think it's doable all the same and I don't mind hard work! Most of my friends don't have kids at the moment but anything could change in the next few years. Moneywise I'm far from well off but I'm in a career that I could get by without working fulltime and I'm pretty thrify too! Family and friends would definitely help me out but I haven't discussed it with them yet, it's still in the idea stage.

Being honest, the cost is the only issue at the moment so I have already started saving which is no harm even if nothing comes of it. I will keep looking into it for the next year or two until I know I'm ready.

metrovelvet

You need to think about how the child will feel being raised motherless in matriarchal ireland, half Indian by a gay man.

Do you have a supportive network around you, who could be there for the child if anything happened to you?

seahorse

metrovelvet wrote: »

You need to think about how the child will feel being raised motherless in matriarchal ireland, half Indian by a gay man.

I'm sorry to say I have to agree with this. Any one of these issues is a big deal. Deciding for a child that they will have to deal with all three just doesn't seem fair. I say so as a single parent myself, so I know all about the pressures, practical and emotional, and the stigma also.

ConsiderThis

seahorse wrote: »

I'm sorry to say I have to agree with this. Any one of these issues is a big deal. Deciding for a child that they will have to deal with all three just doesn't seem fair. I say so as a single parent myself, so I know all about the pressures, practical and emotional, and the stigma also.

I feel uncomfortable when I hear people talk about children as if they are some sort of accessory like a Louis Vitton handbag. We seem to live in a world whre what "I" want is more important than anything else, and the potential childs needs often seem to take second place.

While its quite possible for a child to be raised by a gay single parent, and to be well raised, it is likely to be very difficult both on yourself and on the child in question.

Having seen many single parents struggling and not always coping well, I would always counsel anyone to think about having children where there are not two parents top support each other.

LegacyUser

I have a support network and I live close to my several family members including my own parents. If I had a girl I have a sister who could be like a female role model. She lives on the same street as me and is married.

Chances are I'd need to go through Irish adoption procedures, which would require me to be able to provide 2 sets of guardians to take care of the child if anything happened to me.

Deciding for a child that they will have to deal with all three just doesn't seem fair.

I'd like to think I won't be single forever. As for the other issues, some kids have to deal with worse so if that's all I have to overcome I'd be pretty happy! If I really needed a white baby Ukraine allows surrogacy for single men. In some circumstances they also allow gender selection.

Regarding "matriarchal ireland." I think i know what you mean metrovelvet. I hate the attitude of a lot of single mothers whose only achievement is they had a baby. Or even mothers and their "sperm donor" boyfriend who has kids he can't afford to raise. A lot of them don't have the life experience to teach the child anything about hard work or respect (although they will be well versed in their "entitlements").

That isn't a dig at you Seahorse. one single mother in particular was an inspiration to me. She raised her kids alone .. with a little help from her father babysat a lot. She did book-keeping for a company part-time.

ConsiderThis, I wouldn't view a child as an accessory. I'm not materialistic, but having a family is a human right. I just have a paternal instinct and feel I have something to offer.

Aard

This might be of help, both to the OP and those who have more conservative views regarding gay people having kids: http://www.youtube.com/user/depfox . The videos there give an insight into what it's like for two married men and their two kids, living in a liberal area in California.


Somebody mentioned the "difficulties you may face as a single gay man raising a mixed race child in Ireland". The gay thing - not as big a deal as people think. From anecdotal evidence, a parent's sexual orientation has about the same effect on the child's development as their social class, or spending-power. Mixed-race - more likely to be subjected to racism, but that shouldn't be a deterrent; people adopt from Eastern Asia quite often. As for the "in Ireland" part - I'd be of the opinion that as long as you don't live in a council estate, or in a deeply rural area, there shouldn't be any problem.


In fact, I think the biggest (only?) problem would be the single-parent bit. Like people have said - read up on people's experiences as single parents. Having a baby, and then trying to find a husband is much harder than doing it the other way around. Many Irish gay men would run a mile if they found out you had a kid, not to mention the fact that - depending on the its age - the child would have to give their "seal of approval" too.


(As an aside, once you do find the right guy, he'll have no legal connection with the child - start campaigning for Civil Marriage, as this will directly affect your life!)

seahorse

bloop wrote: »

I hate the attitude of a lot of single mothers whose only achievement is they had a baby. Or even mothers and their "sperm donor" boyfriend who has kids he can't afford to raise. A lot of them don't have the life experience to teach the child anything about hard work or respect (although they will be well versed in their "entitlements").

That isn't a dig at you Seahorse. one single mother in particular was an inspiration to me.

I didn't recieve that as a dig bloop, because it doesn't reflect my life in any way, shape or form. I have to say you seem to have a negative attitude towards single mothers generally though. If you go ahead with your plan of becoming a single parent, believe me, that will change.

ash23

seahorse wrote: »

I didn't recieve that as a dig bloop, because it doesn't reflect my life in any way, shape or form. I have to say you seem to have a negative attitude towards single mothers generally though. If you go ahead with your plan of becoming a single parent, believe me, that will change.

I agree with seahorse. As a single parent, you'll find your career can be hampered somewhat. You can't put in the extra hours, you may have to take days off at the drop of a hat.
You need to appreciate that you may find it difficult to progress your career. If your job goes, you may find it difficult to get something else with hours that suit or with a sympathetic family friendly boss etc.

I wouldn't say my only achievement has been having a baby, but in retrospect I have little else. I haven't travelled, I haven't a career, just a job, I'm single, don't own my home etc.
And yet I am likely the type of person who you will find you have most in common with in a few years. The type of person you need as a friend who understands what it is to be a single parent, who will help you out etc.

I suggest you change your attitude to single parents if you wish to become one. No matter how you come about getting your child, how hard you work to provide for him/her, how well you raise them, you will encounter that prejudice and assumption at every turn.
I suggest you become a wee bit more open minded about single parents before becoming one.

Liam Byrne

bloop wrote: »

If I really needed a white baby......
:
:
I wouldn't view a child as an accessory. I'm not materialistic, but having a family is a human right.

Having a child is NOT an automatic "human right"......I wouldn't even consider having one unless I was in a stable, worthwhile, meaningful relationship, and I wouldn't consider one at the moment given general financial concerns.

So while it should be a basic right to choose, there's more to consider than just what you "want" or think that you "need". And regarding that, you might "want" a child, and you might indeed have a lot to offer, but you don't "need" one, so the phrasing above is strange.

Fair f__ks to anyone who manages to raise a child alone in non-ideal circumstances - e.g. after a break-up or whatever - but deliberately having one in those circumstances is irresponsible and - as ConsiderThis pointed out - is more about the person themselves than a child.

Walls

Fostering might be an option and being gay is no bar in Ireland. Have a look here; http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/birth-family-relationships/adoption-and-fostering/fostering

This will allow you a realistic understanding of the requirements of parenting and what will be expected of you.

Snowman123

I dont have any advice I just wanted to say well done!!!!

You have obviously done your research and you seem to be a very responsible person. It seems like you want this baby and you have already thought about the life you could offer it.

Being a parent in their 20's is great. I have a young son and I love the fact that I am still going to be young enough when he is 18! He requires alot of enegry and running after.. but I wouldnt change it for anything!

I wish you all the luck in the world. It will be worth it when you get your baby. I'm sure your going to be a great Daddy!

LegacyUser

Hi OP,

I'd just like to say fair play to you.

Some people don't really understand the strength of the desire to have a child.

My circumstances are very different to yours - I'm a married woman and we've been trying to become parents, but I've always said that if I didn't meet the right partner I'd go it alone.

Outside of rural areas and estates, as an above poster said, Ireland is a very liberal and tolerant place. In the next ten to twenty years we're also going to see alot more people 'go it alone' so you're simply ahead of the pack. Yes, it will of course be tough, but I was raised by a single parent myself, and it worked out fine. And yes I also agree with you on the single mother thing - some single mothers, my own included, and one of my best friends, are magnificent - but there are other single parents who seem to use their single mother status as justification for doing nothing with their lives except whining and blaming their kids - but then maybe they're the ones who didn't plan on being single parents. And you are obviously not one of these!

Best of luck.

LegacyUser

hi guys. Thanks for all the replies because they've been very helpful.

Single moms, I wasn't having a dig at you by any means and sorry that I came across like that.

I was pointing out the behaviour of a large minority, many of whom aren't even single but has a deadbeat boyfriend and a terrible attitude and contrasting it to what I have.

I've travelled, have a job, own a home, got all my craziness out of the way to the extend I go out a couple of times a month rather than a few times a week. And I had a number of relationships even if they develop into anything longterm. I don't think I'd miss out on anything. I could return to a fulltime career when I was 35, rather than leaving the workforce at 35 and trying to return in my 40s.

Well thats the plan. Thanks for the input, esp the girls

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think its a great you're looking to get an egg donor and a surrogate. Gay men 'donating' sperm to lesbian women or friends to make children makes me want to campaign for state control of reproduction.

Someone made the point about how difficult it would be for a half asian son of a gay man. Can kind of understand this but by the time this kid goes to school there's going to be thousands of asian school kids. Also the OP won't have to make the kid wear a 'my dad's a homo' t-shirt!

jimmyboy123

Well, I'm in Indian doing just that. :-)

I'm 43, have'nt found the right partner to date and really I dont care what people think, my choice.

My only advice would be at 29 years old, if it was me I would wait a bit longer.

Anyhow good luck !

ChocolateRamses

I'll stick to the one reason I don't think anyone can refute as to why you should not do this.

Once you have a child you cannot give it back.

Without intending to cause offence all other responsibilities in life are frivulous compared to having a child, this is one of a very short list of things you can do in life which are nigh impossible to walk away from.

To my mind, a single individual, (of whatever gender/sexual orientation), looking to have a child because they feel "the time is right", or in your case "I want to be a young parent" is somebody whose head is not remotely in the right place to be having a child.

From what you describe my own situation is similar to your own, however there's no earthly way I'd consider myself capable or raising a child as a single parent right now. Maybe that's just me though.

am i bovvered

ChocolateRamses wrote: »

I'll stick to the one reason I don't think anyone can refute as to why you should not do this.

Once you have a child you cannot give it back.QUOTE]

Thats the same for everyone who ever has a child, no one can prepare you for the day to day fact that there is another person that must come first for approx the next 20 years.
That is not meant in a negative way.

OP you seem mature to me, you've researched it, no one knows how good a parent they will be, same applies to you.
My best mate raises his girl and is a great dad.
As long as the child is loved you'll overcome the day to day problems like any family.

LegacyUser

ChocolateRamses wrote: »

To my mind, a single individual, (of whatever gender/sexual orientation), looking to have a child because they feel "the time is right", or in your case "I want to be a young parent" is somebody whose head is not remotely in the right place to be having a child.

From what you describe my own situation is similar to your own, however there's no earthly way I'd consider myself capable or raising a child as a single parent right now. Maybe that's just me though.

Why? I don't see anything in his post which suggests he shouldn't be a parent, other than being gay and single. But being gay or single or in a relationship or poor are the circumstances of someone's life, not who they are.

magneticimpulse

You seemed to have researched this alot and seem mature enough to deal with it all. I think Ireland is changing. But after living 7 years out of Ireland in more mixed race cities I realise that Irish people are very racist and still anti gay (I dont think its in a bad intentional way, just that it is slow to change being a small island). Its not even a colour of skin issue, I find Irish people are closed minded to any foreigners (which is silly since they left Ireland for many years to be foreigners themselves).

I say by the time your child has grown up that Irish society will have changed. With being gay, I think you will be able to address the different race issues to the child, however if you are not of different race or culture yourself in Ireland, would you be prepared for these issues and how to address them to the child (based that you have no experience of this unless you lived in another country as a minority race)? Also you mentioned if you had a girl it might be difficult...ie explaining about periods,breasts,puberty etc. Make sure your sister is willing to take on this role model.

As for being a single parent I dont think thats an issue at all, people manage all the time.

ChocolateRamses

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Having a child is NOT an automatic "human right"......I wouldn't even consider having one unless I was in a stable, worthwhile, meaningful relationship, and I wouldn't consider one at the moment given general financial concerns.

So while it should be a basic right to choose, there's more to consider than just what you "want" or think that you "need". And regarding that, you might "want" a child, and you might indeed have a lot to offer, but you don't "need" one, so the phrasing above is strange.

Fair f__ks to anyone who manages to raise a child alone in non-ideal circumstances - e.g. after a break-up or whatever - but deliberately having one in those circumstances is irresponsible and - as ConsiderThis pointed out - is more about the person themselves than a child.

Right on the money.

ChocolateRamses

unregistered wrote: »

Why? I don't see anything in his post which suggests he shouldn't be a parent, other than being gay and single. But being gay or single or in a relationship or poor are the circumstances of someone's life, not who they are.

For a start he'd be a single parent. Plenty of single parents do great jobs raising their kids, but I doubt many of them would encourage people to plan on becoming single parents.

As I've said before from the OPs postings it seems to me that having a child is more about him than the child, and I think that's wrong.

LegacyUser

ChocolateRamses wrote: »

As I've said before from the OPs postings it seems to me that having a child is more about him than the child, and I think that's wrong.

Hi ChocolateRamses. You've made your point about your view on people who decide to have kids on their own. i.e. you're completely against it even if it's well planned.

You're way off when you try to back it up by saying "having a child is more about him than the child." Yes, it would be a personal decision but not a selfish one. It's like saying a woman who is not morally against abortion should terminate her pregnancy if she accidentally becomes pregnant. or a woman who gives birth but is heavily in debt, uneducated and living in a council house would be making a selfish decision by not putting the child up for adoption to two "good" parents! Or consider the situation where a woman decides to start a family in her 40s because her biological clock is ticking - is this decision more about herself or a child? Or can you even distinguish between the two? I think the main difference in your logic is whether the person who makes the decision is a man or a woman.

As it happens I would like to have a baby with someone, especially in a relationship. If this is not possible I will go it alone. You also need to bear in mind that in Ireland only one person would be the father or guardian anyway and that's something that should be borne in mind before judging someone on their decision.

ChocolateRamses

bloop wrote: »

Hi ChocolateRamses. You've made your point about your view on people who decide to have kids on their own. i.e. you're completely against it even if it's well planned.

You're way off when you try to back it up by saying "having a child is more about him than the child." Yes, it would be a personal decision but not a selfish one. It's like saying a woman who is not morally against abortion should terminate her pregnancy if she accidentally becomes pregnant. or a woman who gives birth but is heavily in debt, uneducated and living in a council house would be making a selfish decision by not putting the child up for adoption to two "good" parents! Or consider the situation where a woman decides to start a family in her 40s because her biological clock is ticking - is this decision more about herself or a child? Or can you even distinguish between the two? I think the main difference in your logic is whether the person who makes the decision is a man or a woman.

For the record I don't make any distinctions about any of those cases. so climb down off your high horse. We all agree that an ideal situation for having a child is two people in a loving relationship capable of supporting a child on every level. For a myriad of reasons people wind up having kids in different conditions, some outside of their control I'll grant you, but we make excuses because people like you talk about having hildren as a "right". As far as I'm concerned if anyone is having a child they have a responsibility to that child to make sure they're in a position to properly care for it. Many people don't do this, and in that bracket I include people who make the kinds of decisions you're contemplating.

bloop wrote:

As it happens I would like to have a baby with someone, especially in a relationship.

Then why not just wait until you do find someone you could do this with? If this was about you raising a child in the best possible conditions for the child then you'd wait. The reality is you want an excuse to do this now, for whatever reasons.

EDIT: Also as a man, there's absolutely no reason for you to be rushing into having children. Male fertility typically shows a slower decline with age, you could still do this well into your 40s.

Aard

IMO the argument that "it's more about the OP than about the child" is just veiled homophobia. I've encountered it before, and the common theme is that they don't agree deep down that gay people should become parents.

ChocolateRamses

Aard wrote: »

IMO the argument that "it's more about the OP than about the child" is just veiled homophobia. I've encountered it before, and the common theme is that they don't agree deep down that gay people should become parents.

Well I encourage everyone to have an opinion, even when that opinion is just a pathetic attempt to slander a legitimate point-of-view with accusations of homophobia.

Let me be clear, I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality, homosexuals, or any other kind of sexuals, however I also don't have any problem disagreeing with what I view as a selfish decisions, whether I'm right or wrong.

That probably just makes me a fascist though, ah well

Aard

OK I believe you if you say you're not homophobic - it's just that a lot of people i've met with a similar reaction are. Wasn't intending to slander

ChocolateRamses

Aard wrote: »

OK I believe you if you say you're not homophobic - it's just that a lot of people i've met with a similar reaction are. Wasn't intending to slander

No worries, I find a spot of righteous indignation adds a bit of drama

LegacyUser

ChocolateRamses wrote: »

For the record I don't make any distinctions about any of those cases. so climb down off your high horse. We all agree that an ideal situation for having a child is two people in a loving relationship capable of supporting a child on every level. For a myriad of reasons people wind up having kids in different conditions, some outside of their control I'll grant you, but we make excuses because people like you talk about having hildren as a "right". As far as I'm concerned if anyone is having a child they have a responsibility to that child to make sure they're in a position to properly care for it. Many people don't do this, and in that bracket I include people who make the kinds of decisions you're contemplating.

"For a myriad of reasons people wind up having kids in different conditions, some outside of their control" so you're basically talking about women who were not in relationships, and women who were not in sufficiently stable relationships - both of which "we all agree" should not have had children. And then you tell me to get off my high-horse?

Then there are many couples who are so absolutely appalling (alcoholics, criminals, people on state benefits who have never worked a day in their lives) who have large families at the tax-payers' expense. Even when one parent behaves like this it can destroy a family and result in a delinquent child.

ChocolateRamses, you have made your point. And if I'm blunt the IDEAL situation is two healthy, white, caring, emotionally-stable, wealthy parents who have close friends, close family (with no skeletons in the family closet), nice neighbours, short working hours where one parent will stay at home or at most work part-time, and intend on having at least 2 children both of whom are able-bodied. But in my opinion the absence of any one of these things shouldn't prevent a person from having children.

You also mentioned that men can have kids at any age. What about 50? There's a 20% chance that man would be dead before retirement age, so the kid wouldn't even be considered an adult. And if the man wanted to raise the child, how would leaving the full-time workforce (to do parttime hours) and then trying to re-enter fulll-time work when the child reaches school-going age work out? I think that's another thing we disagree on. In my opinion there are benefits of having kids when you are younger.

LegacyUser

To the OP:

So let me get this straight: You want a woman to donate an egg to a surrogate mother who carries the child to be raised by you and, potentially, a partner?

I am sorry, but this is totally and utterly selfish. There is no two ways about it. You are only thinking about YOUR rights and needs, not those of the potential child. People have an urge and need to know about their roots and their background in order to build up their identity. By entirely removing the mother (egg donation, surrogate mother), you make it impossible for your potential child to even try and trace back these roots. If you don't believe people have this urge, I suggest you take a good look around the adoption forum both here and on other sites.

And before anyone suggests this is homophobic: I have absolutely nothing against homosexual people having and raising children. I do, however, object to willfully ignoring and excluding parts of a child's background and denying them any chance to explore it. Having a child doesn't get much more selfish than that.

Liam Byrne

unregistered wrote: »

Why? I don't see anything in his post which suggests he shouldn't be a parent, other than being gay and single. But being gay or single or in a relationship or poor are the circumstances of someone's life, not who they are.

Being homeless might be a "circumstance" too......would you still not object ?

What's the difference between offering a roof over a child's head and offering them 2 parents ?

I'm on record in other threads as having issues with gay adoption, and I'll declare that in case it's thrown at me.

But in this case I'd have the exact same reaction to anyone single who was claiming that they "needed" a child.

metrovelvet

The problem is that children are viewed as a lifestyle choice,thanks to the pro choice lobby and everyone thinks life is all about being happy. Well, it aint.

Yeah drunk drug addict parents are not ideal but at least those kids know who their parents are.

ChocolateRamses

bloop wrote: »

so you're basically talking about women who were not in relationships, and women who were not in sufficiently stable relationships - both of which "we all agree" should not have had children. And then you tell me to get off my high-horse?

Re-read my post, I said "people", not "women". And then yeah, I told you to get off your high horse.

ChocolateRamses

bloop wrote: »

In my opinion there are benefits of having kids when you are younger.

Benefits for you, sure, maybe not so much for any child you have. Seems to me all you're doing is visiting an emotionally immature parent on a child. But then I'm obviously just mad even contemplating opposing anyone who wants to have a baby, right?

LegacyUser

ChocolateRamses wrote: »

Benefits for you, sure, maybe not so much for any child you have. Seems to me all you're doing is visiting an emotionally immature parent on a child. But then I'm obviously just mad even contemplating opposing anyone who wants to have a baby, right?

Not at all. I was looking for constructive feedback and you made your point. And +1'd similar points. And expressed your distorted view of me. Anyway I'm finished defending my reasons or my character.

At the end of the day I am mature enough to raise a child and whether I choose to do that on my own or with someone else will ultimately be my decision.

But thanks to everyone for the input, positive and negative.

ChocolateRamses

bloop wrote: »

whether I choose to do that on my own or with someone else will ultimately be my decision.

True enough.

LegacyUser

TotallySelfish! wrote: »

To the OP:

So let me get this straight: You want a woman to donate an egg to a surrogate mother who carries the child to be raised by you and, potentially, a partner?

I am sorry, but this is totally and utterly selfish. There is no two ways about it. You are only thinking about YOUR rights and needs, not those of the potential child. People have an urge and need to know about their roots and their background in order to build up their identity. By entirely removing the mother (egg donation, surrogate mother), you make it impossible for your potential child to even try and trace back these roots. If you don't believe people have this urge, I suggest you take a good look around the adoption forum both here and on other sites.

And before anyone suggests this is homophobic: I have absolutely nothing against homosexual people having and raising children. I do, however, object to willfully ignoring and excluding parts of a child's background and denying them any chance to explore it. Having a child doesn't get much more selfish than that.

i would agree. you expect some woman to permanently damage her own body for a lump of money that will be spent and gone in a few days/months/years with no permanent lasting results like her own child

you want to bring a child into this world to grow up in a less than ideal situation just because you personally want to pay to make it happen. why? when there are so many existing children needing to be looked after?

i just cant get over the unfathomable shallowness of this 'pay for a custom made to order baby' mentality

LegacyUser

Mods, I think this gone from a personal issue thread and turned into a general discussion thread on the ethics of surrogacy. Can you lock it please?
Thanks to anyone who gave advice.