Before the big bang

MooseJam

There was nothing, is it possible for the human mind to picture nothing, no time no space, usually when we picture nothing we imagine an absence of things but an empty void where things could be, can you imagine a total nothing where even nothing itself doesn't exist.

It's hard to put it into words does anybody know what i'm getting at ?

Turtwig

Let's try visualising a particle first. It's not a solid object, it's wavey ...see there are some things that we just cannot imagine or possibly fathom. (Can you visualise anything that isn't a solid object?)
Universe is "queer" and the truth is stranger than any fiction.

Sykk

I don't believe in the big bang theory. George Lemaitre first proposed the idea afaik.

It's a good theory but personally I don't think this is the way the universe came to be.

-Nigel

Plug

Sykk wrote: »

I don't believe in the big bang theory. George Lemaitre first proposed the idea afaik.

It's a good theory but personally I don't think this is the way the universe came to be.

-Nigel

Same here, how can something as big as the universe come from nothing.

Amtmann

This show hints at an answer. The answer is very unsettling, btw...

Sykk

Well, Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose proved that time has a beginning. A point where Gravity has an infinite density.

But a massive explosion that spanned 13 Bn + lightyears out of nowhere is a bit far fetched methinks. Not that I have another explaination or anything! God perhaps? A lot people don't believe in him but that paper proving the beginning of time was accepted with open arms in the Catholic church.

-Nigel

Turtwig

Sykk wrote: »

But a massive explosion that spanned 13 Bn + lightyears out of nowhere is a bit far fetched methinks.

Not an explosion. See these videos for a better description.:)

Kevster

The Big Bang theory is useful because it describes very well what we see today (in the Universe) but also how all that we see got there in the first place - i.e. it describes the past and future evolution of the Universe accurately.

However, I also don't think that the Big Bang actually happened. In my opinion, I envisage that the Universe has 'always' existed and that it goes through cycles of expansion and contraction. One must assume that we are in an expansion phase.

Kevin

Sykk

Malty_T wrote: »

Not an explosion. See these videos for a better description.:)

In work, can't watch them :rolleyes: Will do when I'm home later tho.

-Nigel

Turtwig

Sykk wrote: »

In work, can't watch them :rolleyes: Will do when I'm home later tho.

-Nigel

Ahh fup sorry, meant to link.:o

Kevster

He mentions googol and googolplex in that video. Am I right in thinking that these numbers only differ by one digit (an extra zero)?

Googol = 10, 000, 000, ..., ..., 000 (100 zeros)
Googolplex = 100, 000, 000, ..., ..., 000 (101 zeros?)

Edit: Actually, they're far greater than what I had thought. I just did some calculations.

MooseJam

I'll check out those video's but will just throw this out there, where did the big bang occur ? don't you need a place for an occurance to occur

MayoForSam

MooseJam wrote: »

I'll check out those video's but will just throw this out there, where did the big bang occur ? don't you need a place for an occurance to occur

The centre of the universe, although as far as I know gravity may not be a constant so the universe may not be a simply expanding sphere. Speaking of which, if the universe is expanding outwards, what is it expanding into? Gaining a true understanding of quantum astrophysics is way beyond the capabilities of our flesh and blood brains I'm afraid.

Sykk

MooseJam wrote: »

I'll check out those video's but will just throw this out there, where did the big bang occur ? don't you need a place for an occurance to occur

13.4BN Lightyears or so years from earth. That's where the gravity is infinite. Walls of plasma prevent further view.

MooseJam

Sykk wrote: »

13.4BN Lightyears or so years from earth. That's where the gravity is infinite. Walls of plasma prevent further view.

I don't think you understood the question, 13.4bn lightyears from earth is a place in our universe, the universe did not exist before the big bang is what I mean so where did the big bang occur, given nothing exists there is no 'place' for it to happen.

Turtwig

MooseJam wrote: »

I don't think you understood the question, 13.4bn lightyears from earth is a place in our universe, the universe did not exist before the big bang is what I mean so where did the big bang occur, given nothing exists there is no 'place' for it to happen.

How do you know the universe didn't exist? We can only look back as far as time began, but there was still the spatial part of the universe "before" that.

Sykk

MooseJam wrote: »

I don't think you understood the question, 13.4bn lightyears from earth is a place in our universe, the universe did not exist before the big bang is what I mean so where did the big bang occur, given nothing exists there is no 'place' for it to happen.

You're saying that a universe made up of possibly quadrillions stars, billions upon billions of inter stellar galaxies and the like came from nothing? I think you're thinking too far beyond the logic here.

Something was there before the birth of the universe. We just don't fully or even partially understand what it was.

Edit: Top physicists believe time didn't exist before "The big bang" - Maybe that's why you're thinking nothing existed.

-Nigel

djhaxman

Sykk wrote: »

13.4BN Lightyears or so years from earth. That's where the gravity is infinite. Walls of plasma prevent further view.

The walls of plasma you mention is the cosmic microwave background radiation which is the leftover radiation from the big bang. This radiation was high energy, short-wavelength photons that have had their wavelengths stretched by the expansion of the universe. This is direct evidence for a big bang event. The Planck space telescope is currently analysing this :

http://www.rssd.esa.int/index.php?project=PLANCK&page=INDEX

The reason that astronomers can't see any further back than where they can see now is that there was no light till after the first stars and galaxies started to form about 13 billion light years ago and this is so far redshifted again by the expansion of the universe, hence we see it in infra-red rather than visual light.

MooseJam

Malty_T wrote: »

How do you know the universe didn't exist? We can only look back as far as time began, but there was still the spatial part of the universe "before" that.

The general consensus is that there was nothing before the big bang - no time and no space, there was no spatial part of the universe before that, there was no before.

The whole universe expanded out of nothing , it didn't expand or blow out into a preexisting spacial void , the spatial part of the universe itself expanded out of nothing.

Sykk

MooseJam wrote: »

The general consensus is that there was nothing before the big bang - no time and no space, there was no spatial part of the universe before that, there was no before.

The whole universe expanded out of nothing , it didn't expand or blow out into a preexisting spacial void , the spatial part of the universe itself expanded out of nothing.

Then my question is - How did something with infinite gravity at a billion billion billion billion billion billion (72 zeros) tons of gravitational pressure per square inch expand ?

It's like Earth's gravity turned opposite for no reason and everything falls off - only this is on a much more impossible state.

Edit: The explanations from above came from Stephen Hawkings book so some calculations may have been misinterpeted in the relay . PS I read a good bit today, pretty hardcore to take in!

-Nigel

djhaxman

Hawking himself can't explain it properly, so there's no hope for us mere mortals!

The laws of physics break down until a point at roughly 10^-37 seconds after the big bang after which scientists can speculate on what happened. Nobody has a definite answer, and we may never have. The big bang theory is just the scenario that best explains what happened given the information available to us at the minute.

It's head melting stuff.

rccaulfield

Is the main evidence for the big bang the doppler effect or is there more? I'm torn on the big bang. Everything that happened from say 12 billion years ago thats no problem thats obvious we know about stellar evolution and evolution of life on earth and the start of life here is beginning to become clear aswell!
But i've always struggled with the big bang.

Kevster

It's a combination of a lot of things, rccaulfield, including the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB), the way that galaxies and stars have formed and evolved, and - yes - the Doppler effect comes into it too as we measure how far other celestial bodies are away from us (but more importantly the fact that most seem to be accelerating away from us).

Kevin

Gurgle

MooseJam wrote: »

There was nothing...

AFAIK, no serious scientist actually believes this.
Before the big bang, all the constituent mass/energy in our universe was in the form of condensed matter at the centre.

Before that (extrapolating) it seems to have been drawn together gravitationally.

Before that (speculating) it was either a previous iteration of our 'universe' (big crunch), or it was bits and pieces from lots of other far away big-bang expansions (multiverse) which gathered over a couple of trillion years.

ynotdu

still the question remains,and something i cannot get My head around is where the 'random matter'that came together came from
It is an Extremely complex theory.

AFAIK NASA claims that Hubble has received light from 600 million years after the big bang.

I can understand that random matter could gather to the point that it creates Gravity and as that Gravity draws in matter its force becomes hugh and unstoppable.

To try and visualise 'the big bang' i think of dying and dead stars,the Supernova stage of the life and death of same{that at least there is evidence of:)} helps Me understand the 'expanding Universe'

However i am stuck on where the random matter came from
May'be i need the religious forum:)
Life is too short NOT to wonder these things!

ynotdu

loads of thought-proving stuff in this Video IMO,containing some of the princibles of the theory to some extent but on a level more understanable to Me Professor ynotdu!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgS32CTEOYA

Kevster

ynotdu wrote: »

However i am stuck on where the random matter came from

What do you mean by 'random' matter? I view the Big Bang as a star 'exploding' too but, regarding matter, isn't all matter just energy cooled down? At the moment of the Big Bang, everything was just incredibly hot but, as it 'exploded' outwards, it cooled; and then once a certain temp. wes reached matter condensed out because it was sufficiently cool to do so..?

ynotdu

Kevster wrote: »

What do you mean by 'random' matter? I view the Big Bang as a star 'exploding' too but, regarding matter, isn't all matter just energy cooled down? At the moment of the Big Bang, everything was just incredibly hot but, as it 'exploded' outwards, it cooled; and then once a certain temp. wes reached matter condensed out because it was sufficiently cool to do so..?

Hi.ya Kevster,
basicly i mean where did even energy come from?There had to be 'something'before the big bang,where did ANYTHING come from
it's a rhetorical question and one i guess i will have to try figure for myself:eek:

Cheers

djhaxman

ynotdu wrote: »

Hi.ya Kevster,
basicly i mean where did even energy come from?There had to be 'something'before the big bang,where did ANYTHING come from
it's a rhetorical question and one i guess i will have to try figure for myself:eek:

Cheers

Expect a Nobel prize in physics and more money than you could ever hope to spend if you can figure that one out. The best scientific minds in the world don't know

ynotdu

djhaxman wrote: »

Expect a Nobel prize in physics and more money than you could ever hope to spend if you can figure that one out. The best scientific minds in the world don't know

Ah dang it think i will smoke blow,drop acid and drink 24/7.

This thinking 'thing' hurts my brain!:(:D

Sykk

Bear in mind - There were hundreds of other accepted theory's before Einstein and Hawkings came along. They could be miles off. Someone could come up with something else in the future that makes more sense.

After all, relativaty isn't compatible with EVERYTHING.

Why am I here at 4 AM . Gonna hit the sack.

-Nige