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Road Needs Study (1998)

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  • 14-01-2010 12:39am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭


    I recently emailed the NRA about the Road Needs Study (1998), asking if they had any copies in stock. Sure enough they did, and I received the report in the post today (for free). It makes great reading. Here are some pictures:

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    It's interesting to see how the plans for the interurban routes evolved out of this study. Partial dualing only was recommended on the N9, for instance, while the schedule for rolling out DC on the N6, N7 and N8 was quite different to what followed. Seen as how the study is free to acquire, I recommend all roadsies to email the NRA and order their copy today. :)


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Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I suspect they'll run out of them quite quickly if we all go asking for a copy!

    To me it looks like the plan then was to leave a section of WS2 in the N6 between Ballinasloe and Loughrea (and to preseve the 1970s routing via Loughrea), its just as well this one didn't get done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Well I just emailed them now to see if I can get in a grab one before the rest of the road nerds get there to it. It would be a great read if I manage to get it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Any chance they could root out and email someone a PDF or a word document that we can convert to PDF, how hard is that ???

    What is true is that this is the bible of long term road planning in Ireland and a valuable historic and reference document.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Any chance they could root out and email someone a PDF or a word document that we can convert to PDF, how hard is that ???

    What is true is that this is the bible of long term road planning in Ireland and a valuable historic and reference document.

    Thats true it should'nt be that hard to convert it to a PDF file.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    tech2 wrote: »
    Thats true it should'nt be that hard to convert it to a PDF file.

    Seeing as the miserable greens are making them revisit it ( by cancelling 94 road projects that are programmed as a result of that very road needs survey from 1998) it may be wise for the NRA to conduct another one pronto so those miserable greens realise how much is yet to be done.

    However driver behaviour and testing and the ban on L plates....together with the reduced lethality of the roads overall would seem to demand a revisitation at this time. Many roads have seen a reduction in lethality that cannot be attributed to any engineering expenditure.....maybe a lack of American tourists instead :(


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    That's a very interesting document. Originally nothing more than mostly S2 was planned for the M9 because they clearly envisaged upgrading the N77 to take traffic from Kilkenny to the M8! while the N20 states that a dual carriageway is required.....hmmmm, poltics intervened there anyway!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Folks ye should email the NRA now if you really want one as there is only a few copies left I have been told.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 478 ✭✭wellbutty


    I emailed them yesterday morning and they're already out of them...ye feckers! :D Thanks for the heads up though Furet.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    wellbutty wrote: »
    I emailed them yesterday morning and they're already out of them...ye feckers! :D Thanks for the heads up though Furet.
    Yep same response for me. Gosh darn it!

    Furet, any chance of scanning it in for us?

    BTW, what is that amazing road on the front cover?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Thats the 'East Cork Parkway' a section of the N25 between Cork and Midleton.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭Bards


    Mine arrived in the post today:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Fair play Furet. Any chance anyone's going to scan and upload a copy to the web?

    Interesting to see the amount of red sections (Backlog) on the 1998 map. I wonder how many of those sections have been improved since then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    murphaph wrote: »
    That's a very interesting document. Originally nothing more than mostly S2 was planned for the M9 because they clearly envisaged upgrading the N77 to take traffic from Kilkenny to the M8! while the N20 states that a dual carriageway is required.....hmmmm, poltics intervened there anyway!

    Yes I think Kilkenny and the South east got a far better deal than envisaged in 1998. Though an upgrade of the N77 is still hugely desirable and indeed very neccessary, the M9 as it has been built ticks far more boxes as against the 1998 study.
    For instance;
    - The 3 largest urban centres in the south east are all now/soon will be linked together by motorway. Traffic between these is significant. A road to Dublin via M9 is accomodating all this inter region movement.
    - The M9 is shorter for Kilkenny traffic as against link to M8. Not 100% would have chosen this route, whereas for the M9 thye almost certainly will.
    - The M9 makes a complete job of road upgrades in the south east. No need to go back and build again like the Moone bypass where the road unfortunately was obsolete when it opened. Though it did serve us very well for a decade.
    - Acts a cohesive link running through the centre of the region.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    mfitzy wrote: »
    Yes I think Kilkenny and the South east got a far better deal than envisaged in 1998. Though an upgrade of the N77 is still hugely desirable and indeed very neccessary, the M9 as it has been built ticks far more boxes as against the 1998 study.
    For instance;
    - The 3 largest urban centres in the south east are all now/soon will be linked together by motorway. Traffic between these is significant. A road to Dublin via M9 is accomodating all this inter region movement.
    - The M9 is shorter for Kilkenny traffic as against link to M8. Not 100% would have chosen this route, whereas for the M9 thye almost certainly will.

    Traffic on the N9 isn't that significant, I know your from the SE and I know you got your motorway but please. don't waffle.

    None of the inter urbans had motorway capacity traffic. Bar the Nenagh to Limerick, Cork Fermoy and, Portlaoise to M7/M8 split and Adare N21. (based on 2015 levels)


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    mysterious wrote: »
    Traffic on the N9 isn't that significant, I know your from the SE and I know you got your motorway but please.

    I don't know cos I don't have the traffic figures to hand. Just from my own observations driving it weekly/daily, the old N9 between Carlow and Kilcullen was one hell of a busy single carriageway road.
    don't waffle.
    Please drop the condescending tone ta, you loose any respect I might have your argument/opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    mysterious wrote: »
    Traffic on the N9 isn't that significant, I know your from the SE and I know you got your motorway but please. don't waffle.

    Mysterious you may be right with the AADT figures but considering the N9 was very poor many used the N11/M11 so the AADT will rise further once the whole motorway will be completed. Also how much less was it construct a WS2 over a HQDC at the time? Not much I would imagine and the road is future proofed for decades to come.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭Bards


    tech2 wrote: »
    Mysterious you may be right with the AADT figures but considering the N9 was very poor many used the N11/M11 so the AADT will rise further once the whole motorway will be completed. Also how much less was it construct a WS2 over a HQDC at the time? Not much I would imagine and the road is future proofed for decades to come.

    Traffic between Kilkenny and Waterford will increase substantially once the M9 is complete. I know many people who say that once the road is complete they will travel more between the two centres for both business & pleasure. I have put off trips (and even canceled some) for as long as possible before I have to travel on the N9/N10 as it is one head-wrecking road

    I'm sure Mfitzy has heard the same being said in Kilkenny and further afield


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    I still think the overall question should be which should have gotten priority.

    M20 or M9.

    I say that M20 Mallow - Croom should have gotten priority (and been designed years ago)

    Say build half the M9 and half the M20, then we'd all be better off.

    The fact that the M9 is (nearly) done and the M20 hasnt been touched and wont be pre 2015 is disgraceful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭Bards


    I still think the overall question should be which should have gotten priority.

    M20 or M9.

    I say that M20 Mallow - Croom should have gotten priority (and been designed years ago)

    Say build half the M9 and half the M20, then we'd all be better off.

    The fact that the M9 is (nearly) done and the M20 hasnt been touched and wont be pre 2015 is disgraceful.

    so we'd end up with two half finished roads instead of one completly finished Inter-urban motorway - a typical Irish solution indeed


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    tech2 wrote: »
    Mysterious you may be right with the AADT figures but considering the N9 was very poor many used the N11/M11 so the AADT will rise further once the whole motorway will be completed. Also how much less was it construct a WS2 over a HQDC at the time? Not much I would imagine and the road is future proofed for decades to come.

    Unfortunately we only have 09 figures for the N9 at Leighlinbridge (below) and Mullinavat.

    Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul
    Daily Volume 14695 15776 16373 16662 17180 16979 16690


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    mfitzy wrote: »
    Unfortunately we only have 09 figures for the N9 at Leighlinbridge (below) and Mullinavat.

    Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul
    Daily Volume 14695 15776 16373 16662 17180 16979 16690

    I would expect AADT figures at Mullinavat to significantly increase maybe around the 20,000 mark.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Bards wrote: »
    so we'd end up with two half finished roads instead of one completly finished Inter-urban motorway - a typical Irish solution indeed

    Having the 'road' finished here isnt totally relevant IMO. It would be better overall to have half of the M20 done (removing the dangerous Mallow - Croom bit) and half the M9 done (removing half the dangerous bit of that).

    I agree that both need doing overall, but having one done with the other untouched AND on the long finger is daft.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Furet, any chance of scanning it in for us?
    Fair play Furet. Any chance anyone's going to scan and upload a copy to the web?

    I would of course scan it, but I don't have easy access to a scanner, plus I'm preparing to move abroad for 5 months in two weeks' time, so I'm really busy at the moment. If no one has scanned it by the time I get back, I'll try to get it done - but that won't be until July at the earliest i'm afraid!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 478 ✭✭wellbutty


    Yet another great thread hijacked by the "M20 should've been built over the M9" brigade. Lucky ye're not in a position of power or else AADT figures would be the only factor in justifying a road schmeme improvement. I drove up and down from Dublin a few times over the weekend, lethal car-breaking potholes that KK county council couldn't be arsed filling in (the location of the "Welcome to Waterford City" sign inside their boundary is far more important), the 19th century horse & carriage alignment, unbelievable width, awful drainage, numerous villages...give me a break lads and sing us a new one.

    On topic, how many pages are in the document Furet? If there's not too many I'd scan it and post you back the original.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    wellbutty wrote: »
    Yet another great thread hijacked by the "M20 should've been built over the M9" brigade.
    I don't recall ever stating that before this thread, so I hope I'm not in this "brigade" you talk about, but it sort of jumps out at you, if you read the document from 1998 that is, that the N9 was never due to receive a motorway as traffic was to be sent along an upgradded N77 to the M8 and along the upgraded N25/N11 corridor but the FF "one for everyone in the audience" policies kicked in somewhere along the line. I'm happy the M9 will exist though, but it wasn't meant to, at least not before the M20.
    wellbutty wrote: »
    Lucky ye're not in a position of power or else AADT figures would be the only factor in justifying a road schmeme improvement. I drove up and down from Dublin a few times over the weekend, lethal car-breaking potholes that KK county council couldn't be arsed filling in (the location of the "Welcome to Waterford City" sign inside their boundary is far more important), the 19th century horse & carriage alignment, unbelievable width, awful drainage, numerous villages...give me a break lads and sing us a new one.
    Apart from the sign thing, that could be the N20 you're talking about. You can't deny that the N20 was seen as a higher priority by the NRA than the southern end of the N9. THAT IS FACT according to this 1998 source. That's all we're talking about, how it's interesting that things can be influenced by politics and so on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 478 ✭✭wellbutty


    No murphaph I wasn't referring to you. I do accept the N20 is dire, as is the N24 by the way and plenty of others. The 1998 document recommends that the N20 be dualled by 2019, it's still on schedule isn't it? Yes the South East did benefit in the intervening period after being neglected since Irish independance. It's lucky for us all that the 1998 study wasn't implemented to the extent outlined in the document or else we'd end up with a lot more road downgrades than the N24 Fiddown/Piltown bypass. As Mfitzy said, "The M9 makes a complete job of road upgrades in the south east." The M20 will have its day, we'll have ours in May (assuming BAM come back from the Christmas holidays!).


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    mysterious wrote: »
    None of the inter urbans had motorway capacity traffic. Bar the Nenagh to Limerick, Cork Fermoy and, Portlaoise to M7/M8 split and Adare N21. (based on 2015 levels)
    2015 levels estimated in 1998 are wrong and have probably been surpassed already.

    The current motorways were planned based on revised figures which anticipated motorway being needed along those routes. Hence, motorways.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Plus of course AADT was not the sole consideration: also important were
    • town bypass provision
    • the creation of better road geometries
    • the removal of multiple private accesses
    • the elimination of the multitude of at-grade junctions and cross-roads
    • the provision of better over-taking capacity


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    wellbutty wrote: »
    The M20 will have its day, we'll have ours in May (assuming BAM come back from the Christmas holidays!).

    Not if the Greens have their way, whereas as you say the M9 is a done deal now.

    So excuse a bit of agitation in favour of the M20 if you please - I should note that I have nevertheless argued the valid reasons for the M9 (certainly north of N10, but given the amount the existing road inhibits travel, I argued for south of that also) on a number of occasions.

    The N20 is at least of similar importance I would argue to the N9, and I would suggest similarly at present inhibits commerce and is detrimental to safe travel.

    BTW, this map in fairness does seem to prioritise routes solely on the basis of their state at the time and traffic volume. Those are of course major considerations, but I consider the interurbans first argument as not without merit given the strategic importance and travel time. Nevertheless, it would have been preferable had the originally promised date of 2006 been held to, in order that other routes (such as M20 and things like Newlands and Arklow-Rathnew) could have got a look-in. As far as I can see, the slow start to the interurbans was mainly from artificially limited go-ahead of projects that were artificially small, in order to allow domestic construction industry (FOFF) to gear up to handle most of the jobs. Given the dead end that was jobs-wise, it made no sense bar lining certain people's pockets.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    wellbutty wrote: »
    Yet another great thread hijacked by the "M20 should've been built over the M9" brigade. Lucky ye're not in a position of power or else AADT figures would be the only factor in justifying a road schmeme improvement. I drove up and down from Dublin a few times over the weekend, lethal car-breaking potholes that KK county council couldn't be arsed filling in (the location of the "Welcome to Waterford City" sign inside their boundary is far more important), the 19th century horse & carriage alignment, unbelievable width, awful drainage, numerous villages...give me a break lads and sing us a new one.

    Ok lets compare the N9 to the N20 using your own comments about the N9.

    lethal car-breaking potholes - Check. Theres one persistent one near Buttevant that is more of a pit than a hole. That entire area is a cracked surface track at the moment.

    the 19th century horse & carriage alignment - Check. A section of the N20 around Buttevant can be shown on OS maps to follow the exact same alignment that it did in the 1800s.

    unbelievable width - Check. Large sections around Buttevant and the entire of the Mallow - Croom section are lethally narrow.

    awful drainage - Check. The N20 is jammed in Mallow every time theres heavy rain. That section clogs up due to flooding far more often that the N9.

    numerous villages - Lets list them. Rathduff, Newtwopothouse, Buttevant, Ballyhea, Charleville, O'Rourkes Cross, Banogue.

    Seems to me the N20 has lots in common with the N9, only the M9 is nearly built due to a political decision to fast track it, with the M20 still not off the drawing board. Roads should be built on need, not on which constituency gets its TD to shout the loudest, which has been what happened on the M9 and hindered the M20.


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