SINN FEIN Can Have it both ways on Policing.

ardmaj · 13-01-2010 4:05pm #1

The idea that if Sinn Fein is more inclined to force an election to put the DUP nose out of joint and make them sweat through an assembly election, or reach a deal with duppers on P&J, is an either or situation can be challenged. If they refuse a deal just to see the DUP squirm and risk the deal in the process, the received wisdom is they must lose that which they've insisted is so important. But they can actually have both ways, since the election is likely to result in the DUP being no longer the main unionist group in the assembly after the election. the question is have SF the nerve to risk the humiliation of having to deal with duppers after the election? it's going to be an interesting time ahead

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 4:09pm

Well, policing and justice should be already devolved. It was a fundemental part of Sinn Féin signing up to support the PSNI. The only party that's holding back political progress is the DUP.

Signing up to supporting the PSNI was a tough move, and lost SF alot of support. The PSNi continously harass members of the nationalist community, and because of this - many Republicans have now switched to other groups.

Policing & justice should be devolved now - or the whole stormont process is going to come crashing down, and the fault will be entirely in the hands of the DUP.

FlutterinBantam · 13-01-2010 4:21pm

Is it.

So the cowardly shadowy punters who plant bombs under PSNI cars have nothing to do with it's difficulties??

Do you perhaps support that activity??

FTA69 · 13-01-2010 4:25pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Is it.

So the cowardly shadowy punters who plant bombs under PSNI cars have nothing to do with it's difficulties??

No, not really to be honest.

Pyridine · 13-01-2010 4:28pm

Do you perhaps support that activity??

Do you perhaps support the activity of preventing an agreement politically therefore playing into the hands of those that would prefer no agreement were reachedthus ensuring a return to the normality of bygone times??

Isolation of one side of the community brings popularity to the fringes!

I don't know...you unionists... all pontification and no substance.

Fratton Fred · 13-01-2010 4:30pm

I know DUP support is waining, but is there not a chance unionists would rally behind them to stop SF becoming top dogs?

FlutterinBantam · 13-01-2010 4:30pm

FTA69 wrote: »

No, not really to be honest.

heh heh

Well at least you are honest, 'bout all that can be said;)

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 4:34pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Is it.

So the cowardly shadowy punters who plant bombs under PSNI cars have nothing to do with it's difficulties??

Do you perhaps support that activity??

No, it doesn't have one iota to do with it's difficulties. It has to do with the DUP posturing, trying to make it appear as if they are not compromising to Sinn Féin.

There will always be issues with attacks on policing in the north. This is not going to change in the forseeable future. But in the meantime, there needs to be an accountable and devolved police force in the north. That is currently not the case.

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 4:35pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know DUP support is waining, but is there not a chance unionists would rally behind them to stop SF becoming top dogs?

No, the unionist vote is fragmented in the same way that the nationalist vote is fragmented. Unionists don't think that the DUP is hard-lined enough, and many nationalists feel that SF have compromised too much by supporting a police-force, let alone even before the powers were devolved.

FlutterinBantam · 13-01-2010 4:41pm

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it doesn't have one iota to do with it's difficulties. It has to do with the DUP posturing, trying to make it appear as if they are not compromising to Sinn Féin.

There will always be issues with attacks on policing in the north. This is not going to change in the forseeable future. But in the meantime, there needs to be an accountable and devolved police force in the north. That is currently not the case.

I agree totally, but to say, as you have, that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay is absurd.

Is it not a nationalist element who are trying to murder policemen?

Surely that has some bearing on the process?

Or maybe you think it's MI5 or something?

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 4:50pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I agree totally, but to say, as you have, that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay is absurd.

No, it's not absurd because there has always been, and will be for the forseeable future a threat towards the PSNI. This will not change, and delaying devolution only makes things worse - not better.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Is it not a nationalist element who are trying to murder policemen?

Surely that has some bearing on the process?

It has no bearing on the process. It's the DUP posturing. Devolution of policing and justice would only be a good thing, in terms of bringing nationalists onboard to support a fairer policing service, instead of attacking them. You won't read about it in the media - but nationalists are routinely harassed by the PSNI, without legitimate reason. My friends were attacked by loyalists, which the PSNI witnessed personally, and instead of arresting the loyalists - they cautioned my friends for holding a protest, and the loyalists hoods were seen 10 minutes later chatting and laughing with the very PSNI officers. This is the type of BS that's leaves the PSNI without an iota of credibility in the nationalist areas.

Sinn Féin signed up to support policing on the premise that it would be devolved. This has not happened, and thus - Sinn Féin should immediately remove any support from the PSNI unless a plan is in the very near future. The nationalist community have waited and nothing has been delivered by the DUP as promised.

DUP only cares about votes, and not the actual process of devolution. They know that power-sharing is losing them alot of votes, and they are trying to make a statement by stalling devolution to make it appear as if they aren't willing to negotiate with Sinn Féin. This is the real issue here, and not any of that other bollocks.

FlutterinBantam · 13-01-2010 5:00pm

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not absurd because there has always been, and will be for the forseeable future a threat towards the PSNI. This will not change, and delaying devolution only makes things worse - not better.

Surely that has some bearing on the process?

It has no bearing on the process. It's the DUP posturing. Devolution of policing and justice would only be a good thing, in terms of bringing nationalists onboard to support a fairer policing service, instead of attacking them.

Sinn Féin signed up to support policing on the premise that it would be devolved. This has not happened, and thus - Sinn Féin should immediately remove any support from the PSNI unless a plan is in the very near future. The nationalist community have waited and nothing has been delivered by the DUP as promised.

DUP only cares about votes, and not the actual process of devolution. They know that power-sharing is losing them alot of votes, and they are trying to make a statement by stalling devolution to make it appear as if they aren't willing to negotiate with Sinn Féin. This is the real issue here, and not any of that other bollocks.[/QUOTE]

Do you know something, this has all the hallmarks of several other threads referring to events in the Middle east.

The bones of these are.

Side A is against side B because side B is attacking side A
Side B is against side A because side A is attacking side B

This looks like going that well trodden route.

But as all well informed people know ,it takes effort on both sides to get agreement.

To say that one side only has the wherewithall to reach agreement is the stance of a bigot and airbrushes over all the little trivialities like attempted murder on an organised basis

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 5:05pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

But as all well informed people know ,it takes effort on both sides to get agreement.

What do you mean by "as well informed people know"? I'm about as well informed as it gets when it comes to this process.

Sinn Féin has made the effort. They have signed up to supporting policing, and have done everything asked of them. It is the DUP which has not lived up to their side.

So if you were as informed as you pretended to be, you would understand that it is the DUP who are not living up to their side of the agreement.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

To say that one side only has the wherewithall to reach agreement is the stance of a bigot and airbrushes over all the little trivialities like attempted murder on an organised basis

Sinn Féin has nothing to do with attempted murder on members of the PSNI. It has absolutely nothing to do with the process of devolution. Attacks will continue - and by your logic, policing would never be devolved - not even within the next 50 years.

So when exactly do they devolve powers? They should have been devolved from day 1.

SF should pull out of policing within 6 months if the powers are not devolved, and it will be the DUP's fault for not moving forward with the process, when SF have done everything required of them - despite it losing them many key supporters.

FTA69 · 13-01-2010 5:12pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin signed up to support policing on the premise that it would be devolved.

On the basis of telling their base that they would be "in control" over policing in the north, a belief which isn't remotely rooted in reality. The fact is that devolution is a red herring because the security agenda of the PSNI will remain under control of MI5 (under St Andrew's) and they aren't accountable to anyone bar the British government. You may well be able to curb the more boorish and sectarian behaviour of the PSNI, but you certainly won't change their raison d'etre one bit, that being the upholding of the British state in Ireland.

This has not happened, and thus - Sinn Féin should immediately remove any support from the PSNI unless a plan is in the very near future.

No chance. They've broken their balls in attempting to sanitise the PSNI, even going so far as to call on Nationalists to tout on Republicans. When a British helicopter crashed in South Armagh a group of youths began to throw stones at the soldiers, Conor Murphy's response was for people to rat on these youths to the PSNI. After such actions it is highly unlikely that Sinn Féin will ever withdraw support for the cops.

FlutterinBantam · 13-01-2010 5:14pm

You seem to have difficulty grasping my argument.

I am not dissing Sinn Féin who have indeed gone the distance to achieve devolution in my opinion.

What I am arguing against is your theory that the DUP are totally at fault when nationalist elements are trying to murder the police??

Surely you can see that a reluctance to hand over the keys to the prison metaphorically speaking, is somewhat understandable until these things have been brought under some control??

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 5:30pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You seem to have difficulty grasping my argument.

I am not dissing Sinn Féin who have indeed gone the distance to achieve devolution in my opinion.

What I am arguing against is your theory that the DUP are totally at fault when nationalist elements are trying to murder the police??

Surely you can see that a reluctance to hand over the keys to the prison metaphorically speaking, is somewhat understandable until these things have been brought under some control??

I grasped your argument very well, thank you.

Do you accept that the PSNI will always be targets? And if so - do you also accept that there will never be the "right" time for the DUP to proceed with devolution?

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 5:33pm

FTA69 wrote: »

On the basis of telling their base that they would be "in control" over policing in the north, a belief which isn't remotely rooted in reality. The fact is that devolution is a red herring because the security agenda of the PSNI will remain under control of MI5 (under St Andrew's) and they aren't accountable to anyone bar the British government. You may well be able to curb the more boorish and sectarian behaviour of the PSNI, but you certainly won't change their raison d'etre one bit, that being the upholding of the British state in Ireland.

You're preaching to the preached. I don't believe that the PSNI will ever be a fair and balanced force. I've seen their actions first-hand, and was disgusted at the crap they get away with.

FTA69 wrote: »

No chance. They've broken their balls in attempting to sanitise the PSNI, even going so far as to call on Nationalists to tout on Republicans. When a British helicopter crashed in South Armagh a group of youths began to throw stones at the soldiers, Conor Murphy's response was for people to rat on these youths to the PSNI. After such actions it is highly unlikely that Sinn Féin will ever withdraw support for the cops.

While I agree that they have stepped into what appears to be quick-sand, I do believe that there is a point at which SF will step down from policing. If there is no clear-cut answer for devolution soon, I think they will make a statement.

sceptre · 13-01-2010 5:34pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Do you know something, this has all the hallmarks of several other threads referring to events in the Middle east.

The bones of these are.

Side A is against side B because side B is attacking side A
Side B is against side A because side A is attacking side B

Indeed. I've drawn that comparison myself several times on the same basis. Frequently the same entrenched self-defensive idiotic arguments too.

FlutterinBantam · 13-01-2010 5:38pm

dlofnep wrote: »

I grasped your argument very well, thank you.

Do you accept that the PSNI will always be targets? And if so - do you also accept that there will never be the "right" time for the DUP to proceed with devolution?

You don't appear to have my friend.

You stated that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay in this process.

My contention is that other events,such as attempted murder on PSNI officers, are influencing their decision making.

That is the point I am making.

ardmaj · 13-01-2010 5:48pm

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not absurd because there has always been, and will be for the forseeable future a threat towards the PSNI. This will not change, and delaying devolution only makes things worse - not better.

It has no bearing on the process. It's the DUP posturing. Devolution of policing and justice would only be a good thing, in terms of bringing nationalists onboard to support a fairer policing service, instead of attacking them. You won't read about it in the media - but nationalists are routinely harassed by the PSNI, without legitimate reason. My friends were attacked by loyalists, which the PSNI witnessed personally, and instead of arresting the loyalists - they cautioned my friends for holding a protest, and the loyalists hoods were seen 10 minutes later chatting and laughing with the very PSNI officers. This is the type of BS that's leaves the PSNI without an iota of credibility in the nationalist areas.

Sinn Féin signed up to support policing on the premise that it would be devolved. This has not happened, and thus - Sinn Féin should immediately remove any support from the PSNI unless a plan is in the very near future. The nationalist community have waited and nothing has been delivered by the DUP as promised.

DUP only cares about votes, and not the actual process of devolution. They know that power-sharing is losing them alot of votes, and they are trying to make a statement by stalling devolution to make it appear as if they aren't willing to negotiate with Sinn Féin. This is the real issue here, and not any of that other bollocks.

Diophnep, you have summed up the dup default attitude to the catholic community perfectly. No need to add to it.

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 6:18pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You don't appear to have my friend.

You stated that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay in this process.

My contention is that other events,such as attempted murder on PSNI officers, are influencing their decision making.

That is the point I am making.

Actually I have.

You've still not addressed my point. I can only assume that you are unable to.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 13-01-2010 6:28pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You don't appear to have my friend.

You stated that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay in this process.

My contention is that other events,such as attempted murder on PSNI officers, are influencing their decision making.

That is the point I am making.

This is a really weak point you're trying to make. And you're getting a bit pedantic with the totally responsible. If anything dissident action should be a reason to devolve.

Jaap · 13-01-2010 7:07pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This is a really weak point you're trying to make. And you're getting a bit pedantic with the totally responsible. If anything dissident action should be a reason to devolve.

I was of the understanding that one of the barriers in the devolution of policing and juctice is to do with the police reservists...some quarters want to see them scrapped...some want to seem them in some shape or form retained!!!
If the PSNI was being reformed and numbers adjusted accordingly (as in reduced) due to the disappearance of the IRA and the so-called peace...then all of a sudden the dissidents emerge with a bit more force than you expected them to have...there must be an argument for some parties being concerned about this cutback in policing manpower! It is totally understandable!
More terrorist danger has to equal second thoughts on reducing the bodies you have in your police force!
FlutterBantam actually has a strong point in his comments!

Jaap · 13-01-2010 7:23pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Signing up to supporting the PSNI was a tough move, and lost SF alot of support. The PSNI continously harass members of the nationalist community, and because of this - many Republicans have now switched to other groups.
.

Sinn Fein I think are going from strength to strength by supporting the PSNI...they are gaining many nationalist voters who are realising that they are committed to seeing democracy govern the island of Ireland...not the bullet or bomb!
Any defectors from Sinn Fein I couldn't see joining the SDLP..they would probably shift support to the dissident republican parties I guess!
dlofnep...I know you don't particularly like the police...but surely you wouldn't support the likes of dissidents who look like they are willing to bomb and shoot their way to achieving their own political objectives? Dissidents even maim catholics who support nationalism...that poor police officer from near Randalstown who had to have his leg amputated was prominant in GAA...an organisation that promotes Ireland's unity!

RedPlanet · 13-01-2010 7:45pm

ardmaj wrote: »

The idea that if Sinn Fein is more inclined to force an election to put the DUP nose out of joint and make them sweat through an assembly election, or reach a deal with duppers on P&J, is an either or situation can be challenged. If they refuse a deal just to see the DUP squirm and risk the deal in the process, the received wisdom is they must lose that which they've insisted is so important.

Why?
Why can't they force an election and make a deal on the other side?
They could be a stronger party with a bigger mandate.

ardmaj wrote: »

But they can actually have both ways, since the election is likely to result in the DUP being no longer the main unionist group in the assembly after the election.

Did you mean: they can't have it both ways?
I don't understand why not.
Let the DUP fall on their own swords. Let's see who comes out trumps on the other side of an election. If we've waited this long for Policing, we can wait a little longer.

ardmaj wrote: »

the question is have SF the nerve to risk the humiliation of having to deal with duppers after the election?

They already are dealing with the DUP.
It makes little difference to SF whether the leader is Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson, Jnr, or Sammy Wilson.

ardmaj · 13-01-2010 8:03pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

Why?
Why can't they force an election and make a deal on the other side?
They could be a stronger party with a bigger mandate.
Did you mean: they can't have it both ways?
I don't understand why not.
Let the DUP fall on their own swords. Let's see who comes out trumps on the other side of an election. If we've waited this long for Policing, we can wait a little longer.

They already are dealing with the DUP.
It makes little difference to SF whether the leader is Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson, Jnr, or Sammy Wilson.

I actually meant they can have it both ways, as I said in title. I just phrased it badly. My belief is, that SF won't be able to resist the temptation to send DUP to face their voters at the worst possible time, and, and they've judged that the outcome will be that Dup will be squeezed with rightwingers to TUV and moderates to UUP where they came from back in 2000. The deal can be done with UUP, on P&J later,and the dup will have gone back to 'also rans' in unionism where they belong.

ardmaj · 13-01-2010 8:09pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

Why?
Why can't they force an election and make a deal on the other side?
They could be a stronger party with a bigger mandate.
Did you mean: they can't have it both ways?
I don't understand why not.
Let the DUP fall on their own swords. Let's see who comes out trumps on the other side of an election. If we've waited this long for Policing, we can wait a little longer.

They already are dealing with the DUP.
It makes little difference to SF whether the leader is Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson, Jnr, or Sammy Wilson.

Sorry, i missed that one. I meant that if the DUP against all forecasts come out on top of unionist side after the assembly election, they will be where they are now, facing SF [it doesn't really matter which is first minister], they will rub it in to sf about the gamble going wrong and still no P&J.

dlofnep · 13-01-2010 8:26pm

Jaap wrote: »

Sinn Fein I think are going from strength to strength by supporting the PSNI...they are gaining many nationalist voters who are realising that they are committed to seeing democracy govern the island of Ireland...not the bullet or bomb!
Any defectors from Sinn Fein I couldn't see joining the SDLP..they would probably shift support to the dissident republican parties I guess!
dlofnep...I know you don't particularly like the police...but surely you wouldn't support the likes of dissidents who look like they are willing to bomb and shoot their way to achieving their own political objectives? Dissidents even maim catholics who support nationalism...that poor police officer from near Randalstown who had to have his leg amputated was prominant in GAA...an organisation that promotes Ireland's unity!

Sorry, where did I give off the impression that I supported attacks on the PSNI?

ardmaj · 13-01-2010 8:45pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know DUP support is waining, but is there not a chance unionists would rally behind them to stop SF becoming top dogs?

The answer is they won't rally round, because they failed to rally at the european election, and also, unionist voters know that the places 1st and 2nd are not really superior/inferior positions and that vetoes of FM and DFM are identical. SF just failed up to now to capitalise on theirs.

junder · 14-01-2010 9:02am

ardmaj wrote: »

[/b]
Diophnep, you have summed up the dup default attitude to the catholic community perfectly. No need to add to it.

A political party that panders to its voters, go figure.

munsterlegend · 14-01-2010 9:18am

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You seem to have difficulty grasping my argument.

I am not dissing Sinn Féin who have indeed gone the distance to achieve devolution in my opinion.

What I am arguing against is your theory that the DUP are totally at fault when nationalist elements are trying to murder the police??

Surely you can see that a reluctance to hand over the keys to the prison metaphorically speaking, is somewhat understandable until these things have been brought under some control??

just because you have a relatively small group of people trying to destabilise the process doesn't mean the whole process should stall. in fact the more of a political vacuum there is, it plays into these people's hands. i deplore the attack on that poor young policeman whether he be a gaa/irish speaker or rugby/unionist man.

the underlying problem that i see is that unionism has yet to grasp the idea of sharing power with nationalism particularly sinn fein. they have always had this superiority complex and with the current generation i can't see that changing. nationalism is far from perfect either but true republicanism is about treating all people equally no matter what creed.

i can't see any progress until after the elections as the dup are under a lot of political pressure and like the ulster unionist party before it could suffer significant election losses.

Jaap · 14-01-2010 10:09am

dlofnep wrote: »

Sorry, where did I give off the impression that I supported attacks on the PSNI?

Rephrasing my question...you obviously have some issues with the RUC/PSNI (whether it be the dealings they had with you, family or friends)...Sinn Fein are now encouraging nationalists to approach the police if they have any law and order problems...Sinn Fein are encouraging everyone in the north to support the police...do you think that is a wise move by Sinn Fein?
What do you think is the alternative then if you think it isn't a wise move?
Who do you believe the other groups these defectors from Sinn Fein are moving to?
Do you think it is a wise move for these defectors to support these groups?
By the way I do not support the attacks on the PSNI! Do you support the attacks? Simple answer...yes or no!
Feel free to answer all or none of the above!

dlofnep · 14-01-2010 11:01am

Jaap wrote: »

Sinn Fein are now encouraging nationalists to approach the police if they have any law and order problems...Sinn Fein are encouraging everyone in the north to support the police...do you think that is a wise move by Sinn Fein?

I don't think it's a wise move. But I accept that it's a move that they had to take in order to ensure that policing & justice would be devolved. But the real issue now is that they have not been devolved as promised.

When 2 PSNI officers chastise you for bringing to their attention, a physical attack on your friends and are then seen laughing with the said attackers 10 minutes later - it ruins any faith the community has in the PSNI.

Jaap wrote: »

What do you think is the alternative then if you think it isn't a wise move?

There is no ideal solution in the north. The wisest move would be to call the DUP's bluff, and give them 6 months to progress with devolution or call an end to it. Sinn Féin have put their foot in quick-sand, and they only have so much time before they can step out. Believe me, SF want the process to work - but the DUP keeps posturing, and it's going to bring an end to the whole power-sharing process.

The repercussions are that the PSNI would still operate, but that communities would go from having little faith in them, to no faith. Personally, I think that if devolution went ahead, it would solve alot of problems, or at least create a basis for them to be resolved.

Jaap wrote: »

Who do you believe the other groups these defectors from Sinn Fein are moving to?

From my own personal observations, many activists moved to Éirígí. However, it's safe to say that some may have moved to RSF or the 32CSM. Some possibly independant.

Jaap wrote: »

Do you think it is a wise move for these defectors to support these groups?

No, I don't. I think it fragments the nationalist vote. I do however understand why they have fragmented.

Jaap wrote: »

Do you support the attacks? Simple answer...yes or no!

No, of course I don't. I'm not sure what lead you to believe otherwise.

Jaap wrote: »

Feel free to answer all or none of the above!

All answered. If there's anything I've missed, let me know.

munsterlegend · 14-01-2010 11:34am

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think it's a wise move. But I accept that it's a move that they had to take in order to ensure that policing & justice would be devolved. But the real issue now is that they have not been devolved as promised.

you can't have a party in government if they don't support the police in matters of law and order? i am sure the PSNI is far from perfect like any police force but it certainly is a step in the right direction with participation from both communities. northern ireland's problems won't be solved overnight, it will take generations for attitudes and minds to change towards each respective community.

dlofnep · 14-01-2010 11:43am

munsterlegend wrote: »

you can't have a party in government if they don't support the police in matters of law and order?

Of course you can, if the said law enforcement is unaccountable for and is catered to serving one community over another.

munsterlegend wrote: »

i am sure the PSNI is far from perfect like any police force

No, they are not far from perfect like any police force. They are not comparable with other policing services. They are still deeply entrenched with elements of the RUC, and their attitudes towards the nationalist community has severed faith in them.

The people need to trust a policing service before they will support it. The onus is on the PSNI to clean up it's act, and not for the people to blindly support them. What you don't understand is that many people see the PSNI as the RUC.

munsterlegend wrote: »

but it certainly is a step in the right direction with participation from both communities. northern ireland's problems won't be solved overnight, it will take generations for attitudes and minds to change towards each respective community.

It's only a step in the right direction if the DUP stop posturing and allow for devolution to move forward. There is nothing positive about supporting a biased police force, unless there is real power to change it for the better.

munsterlegend · 14-01-2010 12:41pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Of course you can, if the said law enforcement is unaccountable for and is catered to serving one community over another.

No, they are not far from perfect like any police force. They are not comparable with other policing services. They are still deeply entrenched with elements of the RUC, and their attitudes towards the nationalist community has severed faith in them.

The people need to trust a policing service before they will support it. The onus is on the PSNI to clean up it's act, and not for the people to blindly support them. What you don't understand is that many people see the PSNI as the RUC.

It's only a step in the right direction if the DUP stop posturing and allow for devolution to move forward. There is nothing positive about supporting a biased police force, unless there is real power to change it for the better.

to be honest with you I do believe northern ireland is not able to govern itself at the moment. there is just too much distrust on both sides and even without the policing problems, sinn fein and dup's economic policies for running the place are laughable at times which is why sinn fein won't make any more political progress down south.

i believe something slightly less than joint authority is th only feasible solution at the moment as the british government will never fully accept that they can't run or rule the place.

dlofnep · 14-01-2010 12:46pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

to be honest with you I do believe northern ireland is not able to govern itself at the moment. there is just too much distrust on both sides and even without the policing problems, sinn fein and dup's economic policies for running the place are laughable at times which is why sinn fein won't make any more political progress down south.

Any examples of the economic policies you have issues with?

munsterlegend wrote: »

i believe something slightly less than joint authority is th only feasible solution at the moment as the british government will never fully accept that they can't run or rule the place.

The British Government doesn't want to run it anymore. That's why Gordon Brown offered £1billion to help with the transfer of powers. He is seriously keen to let the people in the north start making their own decisions. The British public doesn't want the north either.

Jaap · 14-01-2010 12:49pm

dlofnep wrote: »

No, they are not far from perfect like any police force. They are not comparable with other policing services. They are still deeply entrenched with elements of the RUC, and their attitudes towards the nationalist community has severed faith in them.

The people need to trust a policing service before they will support it. The onus is on the PSNI to clean up it's act, and not for the people to blindly support them. What you don't understand is that many people see the PSNI as the RUC.

It's only a step in the right direction if the DUP stop posturing and allow for devolution to move forward. There is nothing positive about supporting a biased police force, unless there is real power to change it for the better.

Many unionists would say that their problem is the PSNI are no longer like the RUC...they would say the RUC were more effective in their job than the PSNI will ever be!
Many unionists are unhappy with the service the PSNI provide...everyone in every country has issues with their police force! Call-out times are slow...solving of crime rates should be higher etc!
Many unionists would see the selction for police officers as being biased...not chosing the right candidates for the job...going for religion, sex, race so suit quotas! If you are a coloured black female unless you have some skeleton in the closet or have no common sense you are in with a good chance of getting a trainee spot!
There has to be compromise somewhere!
Who would've thought Sinn Fein would be supporting the police and have members on the district policing boards 10 years ago! From being the political wing of one of the world's top terrorist organistions and supporting violence against the RUC/PSNI to now be helping to reform the police...Sinn Fein has compromised...compromised to give the Northern Ireland and the whole island of Ireland a better future!
Thanks for answering my questions dlofnep by the way!

dlofnep · 14-01-2010 12:51pm

Jaap wrote: »

Thanks for answering my questions dlofnep by the way!

No problem

munsterlegend · 14-01-2010 1:02pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Any examples of the economic policies you have issues with?

The British Government doesn't want to run it anymore. That's why Gordon Brown offered £1billion to help with the transfer of powers. He is seriously keen to let the people in the north start making their own decisions. The British public doesn't want the north either.

i accept britian want out as quickly as possible but what they want and can do are two different things.

i don't wish to get into a debate about sinn fein economic policies as they are so far out of touch with reality, its a pointless exercise.

LordSutch · 14-01-2010 1:06pm

Jaap wrote: »

Sinn Fein I think are going from strength to strength by supporting the PSNI...they are gaining many nationalist voters who are realising that they are committed to seeing democracy govern the island of Ireland...not the bullet or bomb!

Yes indeed, but only in the North (as Killian Forde has recently proven)!

P.S. I totally agree with Flutterin re 'not handing over the keys' until everybody is certain that the jailer (& his family) are 100% on the side of law & order.

dlofnep · 14-01-2010 1:06pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

i don't wish to get into a debate about sinn fein economic policies as they are so far out of touch with reality, its a pointless exercise.

You brought up the topic. Is there any particular economic policies in the north that they are introducing or have introduced that you disagree with?

munsterlegend · 14-01-2010 2:11pm

dlofnep wrote: »

You brought up the topic. Is there any particular economic policies in the north that they are introducing or have introduced that you disagree with?

how does their economic principles in the north differ from the south? i'm sure you can enlighten me on the differences.

dlofnep · 14-01-2010 3:10pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

how does their economic principles in the north differ from the south? i'm sure you can enlighten me on the differences.

Hold up a second - you just went on claiming that their economic policies in the north, along with the DUP were laughable.

Now tell me exactly, which economic principles is it that are laughable. Don't ask me to do your homework for you. I'm well aware of their economic stance in both the north and south.

You've made the claim, now I expect you to be able to point out a few of these economic policies that they implement in the north that are laughable. It's a simple question. Since you made the claim, I'm sure that you are able to answer.

munsterlegend · 14-01-2010 3:33pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Hold up a second - you just went on claiming that their economic policies in the north, along with the DUP were laughable.

Now tell me exactly, which economic principles is it that are laughable. Don't ask me to do your homework for you. I'm well aware of their economic stance in both the north and south.

You've made the claim, now I expect you to be able to point out a few of these economic policies that they implement in the north that are laughable. It's a simple question. Since you made the claim, I'm sure that you are able to answer.

they haven't implemented any policies of any note that i can recall which is why the place is unworkable - how can you have parties in power that don't have a minute bit of trust between them? the place is a failed entity without british subvention and is not an economy but merely 6 counties thrown together in 1921 that nobody wants. even the republican party in power down here have no interest in current times in taking the place over given the social unrest the then loyalist minority would cause.

oscarBravo · 14-01-2010 3:38pm

FTA69 wrote: »

When a British helicopter crashed in South Armagh a group of youths began to throw stones at the soldiers, Conor Murphy's response was for people to rat on these youths to the PSNI.

How utterly bizarre! Who ever heard of a functioning democracy where members of the public co-operate with the police? I mean, it's not as if assaulting soldiers is even illegal, or anything.

Next thing you know, they'll be telling us that it's wrong to put bombs under policemen's cars. Ridiculous!

dlofnep · 14-01-2010 3:57pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

they haven't implemented any policies of any note that i can recall which is why the place is unworkable - how can you have parties in power that don't have a minute bit of trust between them? the place is a failed entity without british subvention and is not an economy but merely 6 counties thrown together in 1921 that nobody wants. even the republican party in power down here have no interest in current times in taking the place over given the social unrest the then loyalist minority would cause.

So you don't actually know any of their economic policies for the north. You just made a sweeping statement, without even giving thought to it. You might want to think for yourself sometime instead of going with the status quo.

Some people have genuine quips with some of SF's economic policies, and can backup as to why they have quips. I don't have an issue with that. You however don't know why, but felt it would be good to just throw it out there and hope that nobody would call you on it. Well, I called you on it and you didn't respond.

You stated that SF's policies in the north were laughable, but now you can't outline even one of those policies to me.

munsterlegend · 14-01-2010 4:23pm

dlofnep wrote: »

So you don't actually know any of their economic policies for the north. You just made a sweeping statement, without even giving thought to it. You might want to think for yourself sometime instead of going with the status quo.

Some people have genuine quips with some of SF's economic policies, and can backup as to why they have quips. I don't have an issue with that. You however don't know why, but felt it would be good to just throw it out there and hope that nobody would call you on it. Well, I called you on it and you didn't respond.

You stated that SF's policies in the north were laughable, but now you can't outline even one of those policies to me.

they are a socialist marxist party - those policies collapsed in the 1980's apart from places like cuba and north korea. sinn fein in economic terms stand for no private ownership, raise taxes for business and vote against every eu treaty though before the last vote they said they wouldn't take ireland out of the eu which is laughable given they are against the whole concept of it.

sinn fein are a one issue party which is why they will never down south aspire to any greater than being anything other than a minority. whilst not knowing the reason why three of its councillors have left the party in dublin recently, it is mentioned in the media these were due to its inadequate economic policies and northern based leadership but i am sure you may have other information. i can understand why they do well up north due to two polarised communities who want to protect their interests/identities.

dlofnep · 14-01-2010 4:45pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

sinn fein in economic terms stand for no private ownership

No it doesn't.

munsterlegend wrote: »

raise taxes for business

Wrong, it's current corporate tax policy in the north is to reduce tax by 4.5% for small to medium sized businesses.

munsterlegend wrote: »

and vote against every eu treaty though before the last vote they said they wouldn't take ireland out of the eu which is laughable given they are against the whole concept of it.

They are not against the concept of the EU. The Irish people also voted against the Lisbon Treaty and the Nice Treaty first time around too. Are they anti-European also?

munsterlegend wrote: »

sinn fein are a one issue party

Yet again, more ignorance. They are not a one issue party. The are a grassroots lead movement, that sticks up for the most vulnerable classes in society. Irish Unity, just so happens to be one of their many policies. (Which btw, is a policy shared by all political parties outside of unionist parties in Ireland). Aengus Ó Snodaigh, TD for Sinn Féin recently slept out in the freezing cold on the streets of Dublin to highlight the ongoing issue of homelessness. Councillors work hard across Ireland working with community projects. Hardly a one issue party.

munsterlegend wrote: »

which is why they will never down south aspire to any greater than being anything other than a minority. whilst not knowing the reason why three of its councillors have left the party in dublin recently, it is mentioned in the media these were due to its inadequate economic policies and northern based leadership but i am sure you may have other information.

Councillors deflect from party to party all the time. There are some issues to be addressed within Sinn Féin, like all parties. The leadership isn't northern based, as the vice-president is from Dublin. I do agree that more investment is required in the south - but this is an issue that is to be worked on.

munsterlegend wrote: »

i can understand why they do well up north due to two polarised communities who want to protect their interests/identities.

Well then why did Sinn Féin go from a minority nationalist party in the north, to the largest nationalist party in the North - overtaking SDLP. Surely, the people would have just stayed with the more moderate SDLP if they were just interested in identities? The reality of the matter is, most of them respected Sinn Féin's politics.

junder · 14-01-2010 4:57pm

don't sinn fein want to increase corperate tax in the RoI but lower it in northern ireland?

munsterlegend · 14-01-2010 5:01pm

dlofnep wrote: »

No it doesn't.

Wrong, it's current corporate tax policy in the north is to reduce tax by 4.5% for small to medium sized businesses.

They are not against the concept of the EU. The Irish people also voted against the Lisbon Treaty and the Nice Treaty first time around too. Are they anti-European also?

Yet again, more ignorance. They are not a one issue party. The are a grassroots lead movement, that sticks up for the most vulnerable classes in society. Irish Unity, just so happens to be one of their many policies. (Which btw, is a policy shared by all political parties outside of unionist parties in Ireland). Aengus Ó Snodaigh, TD for Sinn Féin recently slept out in the freezing cold on the streets of Dublin to highlight the ongoing issue of homelessness. Councillors work hard across Ireland working with community projects. Hardly a one issue party.

Councillors deflect from party to party all the time. There are some issues to be addressed within Sinn Féin, like all parties. The leadership isn't northern based, as the vice-president is from Dublin. I do agree that more investment is required in the south - but this is an issue that is to be worked on.

Well then why did Sinn Féin go from a minority nationalist party in the north, to the largest nationalist party in the North - overtaking SDLP. Surely, the people would have just stayed with the more moderate SDLP if they were just interested in identities? The reality of the matter is, most of them respected Sinn Féin's politics.

so its not a socialist marxist party or is it? you didn't address that point.

whilst most parties do share the idea of a united ireland, they didn't have a private army to achieve same. one thing i will say i have never lived up north and i am sure like any other people they are no different to anywhere else. i can but imagine the level of provocation which led to the commencement of the troubles and the course of action people decided to take. Unionism created a two tier society and this view of nationlists being kept out of power still holds sway which is why they keep throwing obstacles to powersharing. the british govt previously threw a blind eye to all this but they now know they can't get away with this anymore and ultimately they could be told to get lost by their queen.

as for why people voted sinn fein, i think a large proportion of it vote increasing was the correlating rise of the dup over the uup. the extreme unionist view being matched by the extreme nationlist view. the sdlp paid the price for peace of its support dwindling and sinn fein capitalised on same.

SINN FEIN Can Have it both ways on Policing.

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