Bertie Ahern-good taoiseach?

trapsagenius

Something i've noticed since Bertie Ahern has resigned as Taoiseach is that he is blamed in many quarters for 'wasting' the boom years. So my question here is how many people out there still believe he WAS a good Taoiseach.Personally, i still think he was a good taoiseach.He presided over the biggest economic boom in Irish history and it's only since he left that the Irish economy has gone down the tubes. (I mean,he won 3 elections in a row and was the 2nd longest serving Taoiseach since the foundation of the state so he must have been doing something right).But what does everyone else think-good Taoiseach or not??All comments appreciated.

Liam Byrne

No.

He was the epitome of a pass-the-buck politician, appearing to promise everything to everyone, but delivering nothing of substance (I remember FF promising "zero tolerance" - ironically via John O'Donoghue - under his reign).

He also ignored the warnings about the impending implosion.

He also has unexplained finances.

He also was Minister for Finance and signed blank cheques for Haughey.

He also couldn't give a straight answer to anything (and still can't).

He could talk for hours and you still wouldn't have heard much more than clichés or contradicting statements.

He gave jobs to ill-qualified friends (his own admission, stunningly rarely commented on acted upon as the nepotistic corruption that it is).

He did not "lead"; he followed the money and the votes.

So - to reiterate. Absolutely not.

topper75

You write 'boom' like it was a good thing. Economics 101 class for you, frankly.

Biggins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No.

He was the epitome of a pass-the-buck politician, appearing to promise everything to everyone, but delivering nothing of substance (I remember FF promising "zero tolerance" - ironically via John O'Donoghue - under his reign).

He also ignored the warnings about the impending implosion.

He also has unexplained finances.

He also was Minister for Finance and signed blank cheques for Haughey.

He also couldn't give a straight answer to anything (and still can't).

He could talk for hours and you still wouldn't have heard much more than clichés or contradicting statements.

He gave jobs to ill-qualified friends (his own admission, stunningly rarely commented on acted upon as the nepotistic corruption that it is).

He did not "lead"; he followed the money and the votes.

So - to reiterate. Absolutely not.

He STILL hasn't got his tax clearance certificates!!! (even after FOUR years of stalling with the revenue commissioners!)
...and now he gets a tax free status because he is a "writer" - he is a fcuking sad, sick joke.

According to Dail law, one is supposed to have such tax clearance items in order to be elected/maintain ones seat.
...but hey, this is Ireland, FF are over looking that and not mentioning that fact!

Joey the lips

Your having a laugh. I dont even think he was a good author....

trapsagenius

Biggins wrote: »

He STILL hasn't got his tax clearance certificates!!! (even after FOUR years of stalling with the revenue commissioners!)
...and now he gets a tax free status because he is a "writer" - he is a fcuking sad, sick joke.

According to Dail law, one is supposed to have such tax clearance items in order to be elected/maintain ones seat.
...but hey, this is Ireland, FF are over looking that and not mentioning that fact!

What does that have to do with him being Taoiseach?

spadder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He also has unexplained finances.

He explained it very cleary, he won it on a horse!
and his landlord gave him money, you know, those rental agreements where the landlord gives you money.



Maybe this needs a poll:

>No, he wrecked the country

>No, Are you havin a laugh?

> atari jaguar

>Yes, He was great a taoiseach ( This is in case Eoin Harris is a boardsie)

Biggins

trapsagenius wrote: »

What does that have to do with him being Taoiseach?

Honestly? How about he simply paying his dues as another Irish citizen, behaving as the rest of the hard working tax paying people are.

The begrugger won't even cough up what the rest of us are doing since our first day of work - why the feck should he have been put or in a further higher position of power? :mad:
Why the feck is the Dail procedure rules being ignored and he still able to keep his seat as a standard TD!
Why? Because FF need every seat possible to stay in power, keep their STILL massive wages and perks!

Shea O'Meara

He was and is a thieving self serving b*****d.

Liam Byrne

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

He was and is a thieving self serving b*****d.

You got this wrong.

You left out "deluded".

trapsagenius

He lead a government that reduced the amount of money raised in all taxes spent on servicing the national debt from 20% in 1997 to 4.3% in 2007.During the same period average incomes rose by an average of 131%.In 2004 the Irish economy was still growing at 3 times the average eurozone rate.And the initial boom years were from 1997-2000. I don't think too many of you were complaining then.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

He lead a government that reduced the amount of money raised in all taxes spent on servicing the national debt from 20% in 1997 to 4.3% in 2007.During the same period average incomes rose by an average of 131%.

.....and replaced it with a situation where the amount of taxes servicing NAMA and the bank bailout will cost way more than that.

Never before has "I gave them jobs because they were my friends" had such crippling and long-term effects.

Mayoegian

Bertie Ahern a good Taoiseach? Hah, you're having a laugh!

Biggins

trapsagenius wrote: »

He lead a government that reduced the amount of money raised in all taxes spent on servicing the national debt from 20% in 1997 to 4.3% in 2007.During the same period average incomes rose by an average of 131%.In 2004 the Irish economy was still growing at 3 times the average eurozone rate.And the initial boom years were from 1997-2000. I don't think too many of you were complaining then.

As one gotten the pleasure of now living through TWO Irish depressions and the decades in between, I can tell you right now - there was MANY complaining!!! :mad:

The fool outright refused to invest enough in modern medical procedures, failed to invest in national institutions, failed to get the banking institutions in order, failed to clean up the land planning acts , those involved and their purchasing procedures ( a lot of whom where HIS mates by the way! :rolleyes: ), failed to support the Gardi for their crying out for modernisation, failed to save state funds (McCreavy at his behest at one stage stating he was to "spend, spend, spend",) - the list goes on....

By god there was many giving out about this crooked ways, his mysterious money moving ways, his strange purchasing or obtaining of homes, brown envelopes and swapped favours.

Did some of the public want to know? No!
"Aaa sure he's a grand chap and he comes across as such - sure we'll vote for him again!!!"
His once boss Charles Haughtey trained him well. TOO WELL!!!

trapsagenius

Biggins wrote: »

As one gotten the pleasure of now living through TWO Irish depressions and the decades in between, I can tell you right now - there was MANY complaining!!! :mad:

The fool outright refused to invest enough in modern medical procedures, failed to invest in national institutions, failed to get the banking institutions in order, failed to clean up the land planning acts , those involved and their purchasing procedures ( a lot of whom where is mates by the way! :rolleyes: ), failed to support the Gardi for their crying out for modernisation, failed to save state funds (McCreavy at his behest at one stage stating he was to "spend, spend, spend",) - the list goes on....

By god there was many giving out about this crooked ways, his mysterious money moving ways, his strange purchasing or obtaining of homes, brown envelopes and swapped favours.

Did some of the public want to know? No!
"Aaa sure he's a grand chap and he comes across as such - sure we'll vote for him again!!!"
His once boss Charles Haughtey trained him well. TOO WELL!!!

He won THREE elections in a row.Even if in 1997 people didn't know what to expect, in 2002 and 2007, a majority of voting adults approved of Fianna Fails policies.In fact in 2002 Fianna Fail increased their number of seats by 4.

Tricity Bendix

I wonder if Bertie Ahern actually had any input into economic policy. In the early years it was all McCreevy. After he was exiled, things were going so well that they didn't rock the boat, so Cowen kept the low-tax, light-touch mantra. Things such as benchmarking and tax incentives for the builders seem to come from the mind of a negotiator, rather than someone concerned with the economy. Pressies given to friends and enemies to keep them sweet.

Biggins

trapsagenius wrote: »

He won THREE elections in a row.Even if in 1997 people didn't know what to expect, in 2002 and 2007, a majority of voting adults approved of Fianna Fails policies.In fact in 2002 Fianna Fail increased their number of seats by 4.

Yes, he won three elections, not as we know it now by skill - but by managing to hide his incompetence from the public, managing to hide is money grabbing actions from the public and managing to hide his behaviour of moving blame, money accounts and property among others!

fontinalis

trapsagenius wrote: »

He won THREE elections in a row.Even if in 1997 people didn't know what to expect, in 2002 and 2007, a majority of voting adults approved of Fianna Fails policies.In fact in 2002 Fianna Fail increased their number of seats by 4.

And the Macarena was number one for how many weeks? Yes there are many idiots in the public.

Biggins

fontinalis wrote: »

And the Macarena was number one for how many weeks? Yes there are many idiots in the public.

Yep, and those idiots are still keeping him (as a TD ) and the other FF mob still in power with their votes!

If ever there was an example of sheer stupidity, we have a lot of examples here in Ireland.

trapsagenius

fontinalis wrote: »

And the Macarena was number one for how many weeks? Yes there are many idiots in the public.

God, how patronising is that comment?It's pathetic really, how you can come out with such a sweeping generalisation "there are many idiots in the public".Ever heard the saying " You can fool some people sometimes-but you can't fool all the people all the time"?Looks like Bertie managed to fool all the people all the time, according to some of you.:rolleyes:

Colonel Sanders

trapsagenius wrote: »

in 2002 and 2007, a majority of voting adults approved of Fianna Fails policies

First I'll be pedantic, FF did not garner 50% of the first preference vote so this statement is factually incorrect

Secondly people did not approve their polices, they were swept up in a wave of crazy optimism and bought off with public money

MisterAnarchy

trapsagenius wrote: »

He lead a government that reduced the amount of money raised in all taxes spent on servicing the national debt from 20% in 1997 to 4.3% in 2007.During the same period average incomes rose by an average of 131%.In 2004 the Irish economy was still growing at 3 times the average eurozone rate.And the initial boom years were from 1997-2000. I don't think too many of you were complaining then.

The groundwork and policies that led to the economic boom were developed and imposed long before Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach.
He was just along for the ride ,riding on the shoulder of political giants that came long before him .

Shea O'Meara

trapsagenius wrote: »

He lead a government that reduced the amount of money raised in all taxes spent on servicing the national debt from 20% in 1997 to 4.3% in 2007.During the same period average incomes rose by an average of 131%.In 2004 the Irish economy was still growing at 3 times the average eurozone rate.And the initial boom years were from 1997-2000. I don't think too many of you were complaining then.

Would this be the same period where there was a social housing shortage, people couldn't afford homes and we had one of the highest costs of living?; as a Taxi driver said to me during that period, 'We've never had so much money, but never had so many bills.'
You talk about the unprecedented growth like it was his great legacy....have you read any papers lately? They took full credit for your boom, but blame everyone else for the bust.
Education, health...never addressed in any constructive way. e-Voting machines, Equestrian clubs, Marinas, PR assistants, money thrown at failed projects or projects for the few.
Face it, he'll be remembered for the brown envelopes, money in his wardrobe and the dig outs. You will of course get the odd idiot in a few years saying, 'Ah sure fair play, he got away with it!' Haughey all over again.

fontinalis

trapsagenius wrote: »

God, how patronising is that comment?It's pathetic really, how you can come out with such a sweeping generalisation "there are many idiots in the public".Ever heard the saying " You can fool some people sometimes-but you can't fool all the people all the time"?Looks like Bertie managed to fool all the people all the time, according to some of you.:rolleyes:

Irish politics is an absolute joke, no-one is voted based on competence, skill or qualifications just gombeenism and local nonsense pure and simple. The top three people in the country got into power originally because of family. The public can't be patronised enough.

trapsagenius

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

The groundwork and policies that led to the economic boom were developed and imposed long before Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach.
He was just along for the ride ,riding on the shoulder of political giants that came long before him .

Are you referring to John Bruton, who wasn't even elected?Or Albert reynolds who was in power for 2 and a half years?Or Haughey who was corrupt(although the IFSC was a great initiative)?One more-it couldn't have been Garret Fitzgerald who did his level best to cripple the country with taxes and almost brought the country to its knees before Mcsharry(and Haughey, actually) saved our hides?

Seth Brundle

Bertie bought peoples popularity. He kept his friends close and his enemies closer.
He was a good leader of people but just like Custer, he led us into a disaster. He was certainly not a good taoiseach!

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

?Looks like Bertie managed to fool all the people all the time, according to some of you.:rolleyes:

How do you make that out ? For a start, he didn't fool us, so immediately that's not "all".

And considering that FF didn't get an overall majority (for the first time in their history) there were lots of other people that weren't fooled, either.

Did he manage to fool maybe 20% of people, combining that with the 20% hardliners ?

Probably. But that's far from "all".

Seth Brundle

trapsagenius wrote: »

Are you referring to John Bruton, who wasn't even elected?

eh?

dougal

trapsagenius wrote: »

He won THREE elections in a row.Even if in 1997 people didn't know what to expect, in 2002 and 2007, a majority of voting adults approved of Fianna Fails policies.In fact in 2002 Fianna Fail increased their number of seats by 4.

Actually he didn't WIN any elections - all the governments he led were coalitions. This goes to prove that even though the country was doing "GREAT" we didn't trust him to have full run of the place and always made sure we had someone looking over his shoulder. Pity they were all gutless!

trapsagenius

fontinalis wrote: »

Irish politics is an absolute joke, no-one is voted based on competence, skill or qualifications just gombeenism and local nonsense pure and simple. The top three people in the country got into power originally because of family. The public can't be patronised enough.

God i have to laugh, you've convinced me now.Meet me in Dublin tomorrow and we can march down to Leinster House and do away with this democracy rubbish!:rolleyes:

fontinalis

trapsagenius wrote: »

God i have to laugh, you've convinced me now.Meet me in Dublin tomorrow and we can march down to Leinster House and do away with this democracy rubbish!:rolleyes:

Good man, name another country who haemoorages people like Ireland. there's fcuk all good about being the Zimbabwe of Europe.

trapsagenius

kbannon wrote: »

eh?

He had no mandate for government.Fianna Fail were in with Labour and at the end of 1994 the Labour party left the coalition and hopped into bed with FG.No election-the Dail wasn't dissolved.Only time its happened in the history of the state that a government came to power without being elected.

Riddle101

Something i've noticed is that a lot of people have become softer towards Bertie Ahern ever since Brian Cowen started going downhill. There's actually a page on Facebook saying "BRING BACK BERTIE AHERN" which to me is just sad. I mean are people suddenly getting Amnesia or something, that they can't remember what Bertie was like before Brian Cowen. make no mistake about it, Bertie is just as bad Brian Cowen. The only reason people want him back is because they remember how good life used to be when he was in charge so they think he'll make the country better again. But he won't, Bertie won't be able to fix the country any more then anyone else. Bertie is still a thief and prat and I don't think he was a good Taosiach.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

God i have to laugh, you've convinced me now.Meet me in Dublin tomorrow and we can march down to Leinster House and do away with this democracy rubbish!:rolleyes:

No - just do away with the ones there who are breaking the law by staying elected while not being tax-compliant.

Actually, you'd probably be going to the wrong place, considering said-same conman dosses off work (while we're still paying him for work) using a car and driver paid for by us to flog his work of fiction.

Seth Brundle

@ trapsagenius - Was he elected to the Dáil?

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you make that out ? For a start, he didn't fool us, so immediately that's not "all".

And considering that FF didn't get an overall majority (for the first time in their history) there were lots of other people that weren't fooled, either.

Did he manage to fool maybe 20% of people, combining that with the 20% hardliners ?

Probably. But that's far from "all".

Haughey was the first FF leader who went into a coalition-this was in 1989 with the PD's.Reynolds was in coalition with Labour.Haughey also never earned an overall majority-he inherited one from Lynch.I also think i'm correct in saying that every FF leader led a minority government(besides possibly Lynch-i'm not sure).So to say that Bertie was the first FF leader who didn't get an overall majority is absolute nonsense.

Arnold Layne

trapsagenius wrote: »

He won THREE elections in a row.Even if in 1997 people didn't know what to expect, in 2002 and 2007, a majority of voting adults approved of Fianna Fails policies.In fact in 2002 Fianna Fail increased their number of seats by 4.

Just because he was good for Fianna Fail and its cronies does not make him a good taoiseach. He was not good for the country, caving into unions by throwing money at them, defending the Paeodophile Residents In Every Small Town and making sure the Church did not have to pay.

Great Taoiseach for FF cronies, noone else

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

Haughey was the first FF leader who went into a coalition-this was in 1989 with the PD's.Reynolds was in coalition with Labour.Haughey also never earned an overall majority-he inherited one from Lynch.I also think i'm correct in saying that every FF leader led a minority government(besides possibly Lynch-i'm not sure).So to say that Bertie was the first FF leader who didn't get an overall majority is absolute nonsense.

I stand corrected.

That doesn't take from the fact that (a) your "majority" statement is incorrect and (b) your "fool all the people" statement is incorrect.

trapsagenius

kbannon wrote: »

@ trapsagenius - Was he elected to the Dáil?

He was elected to the Dail, yes.But after the election in 1992 Labour went into government with FF but subsequently jumped ship in 1994.Maybe i should have said Bruton never won an election to be Taoiseach.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

He was elected to the Dail, yes.But after the election in 1992 Labour went into government with FF but subsequently jumped ship in 1994.Maybe i should have said Bruton never won an election to be Taoiseach.

Much like Cowen, then ?

Het-Field

trapsagenius wrote: »

Something i've noticed since Bertie Ahern has resigned as Taoiseach is that he is blamed in many quarters for 'wasting' the boom years. So my question here is how many people out there still believe he WAS a good Taoiseach.Personally, i still think he was a good taoiseach.He presided over the biggest economic boom in Irish history and it's only since he left that the Irish economy has gone down the tubes. (I mean,he won 3 elections in a row and was the 2nd longest serving Taoiseach since the foundation of the state so he must have been doing something right).But what does everyone else think-good Taoiseach or not??All comments appreciated.

That quote suggests you know little or nothing about politics. Bertie's departure did coincide with the collapse, but the collapse was in place, and all that was need was the catyalist i.e. the banking collapse.

-Bertie artificially increased wages through the social partnership sham
-Bertie refused to take on the Unions
-Bertie's premiership was predicated on the property boom once he moved Harney, McCreevy and Brennan from the economic and infrastructural portfolios.
-Bertie allowed this boom to be primed by ignoring sham banking practices, and light touch regulation. It wasnt in his interest to do otherwise


Bertie crippled a fine export driven, productive economy in the name of short term populism. He equally had the gall to tell us that the "boom would get boomier".

A shambles of a leader, who masked this by crippling the country financially.

paddyland

He also stands accused of one very specific occasion of outright corruption, the receipt of money for favours relating to a planning development on Dublin's southside. This is not only a sacking offence, but if convicted, conceiveably a jailing offence similar to Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, et al.

True to form, it appears that some of those who might testify to this effect, seem to find various reasons not to. In this country, a whole book of lies can be written and held up as a whitewash of somebody's life, however incredible. However one word of truth about them cannot be held up in the same way without unequivocal evidence that stands up in a court of law. That evidence is the word of witnesses who have too much to lose.

History WILL deliver the true, full, rotten legacy of Bertie Ahern, in all it's shame. However, we may well have to wait years for that. In the meantime, Bertie can live out his lie.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I stand corrected.

That doesn't take from the fact that (a) your "majority" statement is incorrect and (b) your "fool all the people" statement is incorrect.

Ok, i'll put my hands up and say-what i should have said was "in 3 succesive elections more people in Ireland approved of FF than approved of any one other party".

Fighting Irish

Him and his banking buddies made me get a huge mortgage to buy a house and he personally made me buy a brand new car on my credit card!!!!!
And now i lost my job and have trouble paying off my loans, i'm not really sure about who's fault it was i lost my job, but it was defo either Berti or the teachers!!!!!

Seth Brundle

@ Fighting Irish - did you forget the smiley?

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Much like Cowen, then ?

Exactly like Cowen.And cowen is useless.

Atwork

I think Bertie has joined boards;)

Fighting Irish

Not that Berti is the dogs bollix, but most things he is blamed for are bull****

Fighting Irish

kbannon wrote: »

@ Fighting Irish - did you forget the smiley?

I added !!!!! instead of a smiley

Het-Field

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Not that Berti is the dogs bollix, but most things he is blamed for are bull****

So he didnt sanction 10% increases in public expenditure for each of the past five years ?

So he didnt ignore the slimy banking practices which fly in the face of sensible private business practice ?

So he didnt engage in hubris projects such as the "Bertie Bowl" to endeer himself to the ordinary man ?

So he didnt choose to line the pockets of developers to the detriment of the factors of productivity, and then live off Capital Gains Tax, Stamp Duty, and VAT, to fuel an artificial boom ?

trapsagenius

Atwork wrote: »

I think Bertie has joined boards;)

LOL

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Not that Berti is the dogs bollix, but most things he is blamed for are bull****

Sorry i don't really understand this comment.Please elaborate.(But is someone actually [kind of] agreeing with me?!?)