The Frontline: Statist Ireland and the Big Chill

Permabear

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i57dwun4yb1pt8

and you know why this is ?

because the government are the prime example of a molly coddled bunch of parasites with a gigantic sense of entitlement -

they set the example - and people follow it .

AJ STYLES

i agree donegalfella, but sadly this is the dominant mindset in the country which is only further propagated by this leftist media we have.

it will be hard to reverse this sense of entitlement.

lugha

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think it was clear from about 1 minute into the show that Kenny wanted a whinge show. Perhaps these get better ratings or something. But I agree, it was a bit depressing listening to all the moaning.

gnxx

I thought that the guy who suggested that people clear paths in front of their own property was an arrogant ****.

On Thursday, John Gormley stated that individuals could not be sued if somebody slipped on a path that somebody made an attempt to clear. I wouldn't believe or trust Gormley. If somebody was sued, you could imagine Gormley stating "well that was the advice I had at the time".

Also, people didn't have the time to clear footpaths. Retail sector returned to work on the 26th and many businesses reopened soon afterwards. People were suffering commutes of over 5 hours on top of a full working day.

We pay considerable taxes -- both national and local. We should expect that the paths should be cleared with the guys who have equipment, funding and manpower.

I've never heard such rubbish in all my life.

sceptre

gnxx wrote: »

On Thursday, John Gormley stated that individuals could not be sued if somebody slipped on a path that somebody made an attempt to clear. I wouldn't believe or trust Gormley.

You'd be right not to. If Gormley said that, he's got it completely wrong (and probably backwards)

silverharp

gnxx wrote: »

We pay considerable taxes -- both national and local. We should expect that the paths should be cleared with the guys who have equipment, funding and manpower.

I've never heard such rubbish in all my life.

You have never been to Germany then, you get fined if you dont clear the path, and they dont wait for a fall. The Homer Simpson slogan of "cant someone else do it " doesnt always work

southsiderosie

I can understand wanting the government to clear the roads and to keep areas in front of government buildings clear of ice and snow. But do people really think the government should shovel out in front of their homes and businesses? Hm. Times like these I feel very American.

It actually doesn't take that long to shovel, and it's a grand reason to get out of the house - you warm up pretty quickly, and it's good exercise.

There aren't any enterprising teenagers out looking for shoveling jobs? Given the state of the job market, hey it's a way to make some decent pocket money.

Dan_B

A lot of the criticism is OTT but the least I thought I could expect was:
Main roads kept clear.
Public transport kept running.
Paths cleared around bus and train stops / stations.
None of this was done.

Government and local authorities get a fail on this one.

FlutterinBantam

This in my opinion throws the spotlight on the ridiculous length of the Xmas break.

The whole country, particularly the public sector shuts down for ten days and nobody seems to be in charge if things go pear shaped.

I agree with DF that we depend far too much on 'others' to do what we should do for ourselves.

We were caught out badly here, and this debacle showed the paucity and amateurishness of Govt. both at local and national level.

Made a total pig's ear of the whole thing.

RedPlanet

southsiderosie wrote: »

There aren't any enterprising teenagers out looking for shoveling jobs? Given the state of the job market, hey it's a way to make some decent pocket money.

No, you won't find a single one.
Why?
Since people have this absurd expectation that the Council should do it, they'd be mad to pay some kid money for it.

Pyridine

i agree donegalfella, but sadly this is the dominant mindset in the country which is only further propagated by this leftist media we have.

LOL!!!!!

You guys crack me up!! Here was I looking out the window all depressed about the weather than I read this!! Tony O'Reilly a leftist!!! LOL!!!!!

ednwireland

well our neighbours got grit sand and gravel we did the roads near me (4wd tractors are great) so we could get out cant understand why people in estates didnt get out and clear pavements.
we just went down the grit store and got it (ok in country areas you have more access to 10 ton trailers etc)

and the one thing the council should have done is provide grit to people who wanted to do something.

our roads were treacharous from the 18th december (and still are at the moment but getting more passable )

as far as the people complaining about falling, i was out in my work shoes no bother not slipping (much) on ice put on the hiking boots i was all over the place.

Also the complete shutdown of public services between christmas and new year (and no doubt most of the week before and after, shows we cant do this and they need to make sure that emergency numbers are there.

the only thing that did cross my mind is that the army should be on standby to deliver food and fuel to people in country areas (i'm sure plenty of parts of meath and kildare were hard enough to get to) as they have all terrain vehicles

but i agree with people doing things for themselves i was gritting my drive on sunday afternoon

gnxx wrote: »

We pay considerable taxes -- both national and local. We should expect that the paths should be cleared with the guys who have equipment, funding and manpower.

I've never heard such rubbish in all my life.

i've never heard such rubbish either, sorry but how much council tax do you pay ? the only local taxes in this country are motor tax and business rates, do you reallly think councils have the manpower to go round clearing every estate, when i was a kid everyone was out clearing the paths when it snowed.
maybe i'm just odd not expecting the council to do everything (and i'm not irish)

and as far as i can see the show was a winge fest

dan_d

Didn't see the programme, but totally agree with Donegalfella. Any other country we wouldn't even be discussing this - but we excel at mé féin-ism in this country (an Irish phrase for a peculiarly Irish problem)
Fair enough we don't get much weather like this and we've been caught out on the grit situation. But honestly - wouldn't kill most people to clear their own paths, and what on earth did people feel Noel Dempsey's return was going to do for them?
Main roads should have been kept clear and bus routes aswell. If we ALL had to clear our footpaths, the likelihood of suing may in fact have reduced.
I've said it before - socially, we're years behind the rest of Europe. We're like a 12 yr old in a room full of adults. Kinda heading for maturity but still with the characteristics and selfishness of a small child. Why shouldn't we clear the paths? If we're living life in such fear of suing, we should never set foot outside the door. As for finding the time - they find the time in every other country in the world to clear worse snow. We have no excuses and we've embarassed ourselves - again.

spank_inferno

I 100% agree with DonegalFella.
We are so molly-coddled in this state we can hardly do anything for ourselves.

Taking my road as an example (wicklow town).
Everywhere is on a hill, so its hard to get around.

The council left plenty of 1 tonne bags of sand at various points along the non-essential roads. They worked on many of them themselves.
Some places were too steep & icy for the trucks to get up so the residents did it themselves.

Last week my father finding it too icy to get his van down the hill, called into work and spent the next 5-6 hrs completely sanding the entire 300-400 meter road they live on. With a shovel and wheel-barrow he thinks he spread the bulk of a tonne himself.

result: Clear access for all.

People need to wake up.
The council cant be everywhere
They don't have infinite resources.
The good lord gave us two arms to use ourselves.
.... so use them

imme

OP, maybe you might give your definition of Statism, in reference to the thread title. I think it would help clarify the title.

lugha

Dan_B wrote: »

A lot of the criticism is OTT but the least I thought I could expect was:
Main roads kept clear.
Public transport kept running.
Paths cleared around bus and train stops / stations.
None of this was done.

Government and local authorities get a fail on this one.

To the best of my knowledge the main roads were kept open. But the issue of roads in Dublin last Wed and the way it was handled on the program was interesting. O Cuiv gave to my mind a very satisfactory explanation as to the cause of the chaos. Essentially the snow, freeze and rush hour traffic came in quick succession, so there was really nothing that could be done. This is life. Sometime sh*t happens and it's nobody's fault. But the whinge brigade were not having this. They even had the laughable suggestion that it might have been possible to persuade everybody not to use the roads for a couple of hours.
I don't know if it is peculiarity of the Irish alone but we have this utter incapacity to accept that sometimes, unforeseen events will happen and it doesn't have to be anybody's fault.

Permabear

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imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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I was just struggling to understand the title, were you trying to say that Ireland (state) is statist and then go on to talk about this in relation to recent events. Were you trying to say that the Irish (people) are statist not necessarily that Ireland is statist (which it isn't) and then go on to raise the issue of Irish peoples' reaction/response to recent events. I trust you'll understand my question.

imme

sceptre wrote: »

You'd be right not to. If Gormley said that, he's got it completely wrong (and probably backwards)

well which is it?, wrong or backwards? (backwards?, what does this mean)

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

DaDumTish wrote: »

and you know why this is ?

because the government are the prime example of a molly coddled bunch of parasites with a gigantic sense of entitlement -

they set the example - and people follow it .

who elected the government?

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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oh yeah it's enormous:eek:, huge welfare state:rolleyes:, our government regulates and raises taxes, wow that's so different from other countries, 'normal' countries. We must be an exceptional country, quick somebody get on to the Guinness Book of Records, Ireland is a statist country:eek:, I'm in shock.

You still seem to relating a statist outlook (of the individual) with the de facto position of us being a statist country (you say Ireland is such).

sceptre

imme wrote: »

well which is it?, wrong or backwards? (backwards?, what does this mean)

Backwards is something that is the wrong way around. It's a common word down our way. Or assways as we sometimes say in different variants. Wrong, of course, is incorrect. The two are distinct but not mutually exclusive. And assuming that gnxx remembers Gormley's statement correctly, Gormley's both wrong and has it backwards (ie, you can and a reversal works well). As distinct from backward, which I don't believe him to be but I don't know. I included it as an emphasis redundancy to be honest, I sometimes do that. It's a side-discussion tbh, PM might have worked better.

Dan_B

lugha wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge the main roads were kept open. But the issue of roads in Dublin last Wed and the way it was handled on the program was interesting. O Cuiv gave to my mind a very satisfactory explanation as to the cause of the chaos. Essentially the snow, freeze and rush hour traffic came in quick succession, so there was really nothing that could be done. This is life. Sometime sh*t happens and it's nobody's fault. But the whinge brigade were not having this. They even had the laughable suggestion that it might have been possible to persuade everybody not to use the roads for a couple of hours.
I don't know if it is peculiarity of the Irish alone but we have this utter incapacity to accept that sometimes, unforeseen events will happen and it doesn't have to be anybody's fault.

I didn't say the main roads weren't kept open, I said clear, and they clearly where not. And indeed some roads where closed completley.Dublin bus terminated service completley twice and ran limited service for several days.
Bus eireann maintained most service, albeit delayed.
The weather was forecast so where is the unforseen circumstances?
Eamonn O Cuiv's explanantion was we have insufficent supplies for grit and it's nobodys fault, then it never is with this government.
How anybody outside the public service could find his explanation safisfactory defies belief.

No salt, no salt, no salt was his cry for anyone who missed it.

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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DF who are you talking about the 'lone voice guy'?
Do you mean Declan Power (Security Analyst) who was up on the platform with P Kenny and E O'Cuiv. He spoke coherently and convincingly. He gave a good overiew of events. He wasn't treated derisively by Pat Kenny imo. He spoke good old fashioned common sense. He didn't say that people can do everything for themselves, I'm not saying that you said he did btw.

re. the people vowing to vote or FG night time round, some might also vow to vote for Amhrán Nua next time round:D.

ei.sdraob

Dan_B wrote: »

Eamonn O Cuiv's explanantion was we have insufficent supplies for grit and it's nobodys fault, then it never is with this government.

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

and anyone else remember the guy on RTE news few days ago, standing in front of a mountain of "certified" grit saying come and get it, and that no one is buying it of him??

lugha

Dan_B wrote: »

I didn't say the main roads weren't kept open, I said clear, and they clearly where not.

And how would you suppose the government, or anyone else, would keep the roads clear? Issue a King Canute type command to forbid the snow to fall?

Dan_B wrote: »

Eamonn O Cuiv's explanantion was we have insufficent supplies for grit and it's nobodys fault, then it never is with this government.
How anybody outside the public service could find his explanation safisfactory defies belief.

No salt, no salt, no salt was his cry for anyone who missed it.

Yes, we were short of salt. But if we had bought massive stock piles of the stuff last Summer, you can be sure that the same whinging would be going on then about wasting money.
And in the case of the Dublin freeze up, that it notwith O Cuiv said. He said that the freeze coincided with rush hour so it was not possible to get out and grit the roads. In other words, one of these things that happen and cannot be avoided.

lugha

ei.sdraob wrote: »

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

and anyone else remember the guy on RTE news few days ago, standing in front of a mountain of "certified" grit saying come and get it, and that no one is buying it of him??

I heard someone (can't recall who) saying that what he was offering was not suitable (can't recall why it was not suitable either come to think of it )

Dan_B

lugha wrote: »

I heard someone (can't recall who) saying that what he was offering was not suitable (can't recall why it was not suitable either come to think of it )

Are you related to Bertie Ahern

lugha

Dan_B wrote: »

Are you related to Bertie Ahern

I'd say we're all related to him somehow.

Riskymove

lugha wrote: »

Yes, we were short of salt. But if we had bought massive stock piles of the stuff last Summer, you can be sure that the same whinging would be going on then about wasting money.

agreed, if we were stockpiling enough materials to deal with what happened in 63 every year since, people would be going nuts about the expense

its not that we did not have salt, its that we did not have enough salt to deal with the longest cold snap in 40 years

UK had similar issues with salt

I heard someone (can't recall who) saying that what he was offering was not suitable (can't recall why it was not suitable either come to think of it )

it was just the granite bit I think, not salt...there was no shortage of granite or sand

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

1. more like EU laws

2. SALT was the problem!!!! not sand, not granite etc


...there is a pattern here

Sleepy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

and anyone else remember the guy on RTE news few days ago, standing in front of a mountain of "certified" grit saying come and get it, and that no one is buying it of him??

AFAIK, you can't use some types of grit because it can clog up the drains when the thaw starts...

ei.sdraob

Sleepy wrote: »

AFAIK, you can't use some types of grit because it can clog up the drains when the thaw starts...

the guy claimed on national tv that his "grit" was certified

anyways the drains around here are all clogged up already

but thats a subject for another thread

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

as for salt, we have a relatively warm salty sea water sloshing around our shores, can that not be spread around?

you want to spread water on roads that will then have freezing temperatures?

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

you want to spread water on roads that will then have freezing temperatures?

doesnt salt water have a much lower freezing point?

for that matter boil some sea water and your left behind with salt

meh anyways dont mind me im just trying to come up with solutions, thats more than can be said of the state

parasite

ei.sdraob wrote: »

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

the foreshore act, afaik

gnxx

sceptre wrote: »

Backwards is something that is the wrong way around. It's a common word down our way. Or assways as we sometimes say in different variants. Wrong, of course, is incorrect. The two are distinct but not mutually exclusive. And assuming that gnxx remembers Gormley's statement correctly, Gormley's both wrong and has it backwards (ie, you can and a reversal works well). As distinct from backward, which I don't believe him to be but I don't know. I included it as an emphasis redundancy to be honest, I sometimes do that. It's a side-discussion tbh, PM might have worked better.

Just on this point quickly ( it was late when I posted last night ).

A rumour is/was doing the rounds that suggested if you clear snow/ice from in front of your property ( IE public footpath ) and later somebody slipped because you hadn't done the job properly, you were potentially liable. A person could claim that they believed the footpath to be free of ice/snow. If you left the snow, then it was "an act of god".

On Friday, John Gormley said he checked this out and it was complete rubbish.

This raises two points:

a) Would you trust the statement of John Gormley if you found yourself in court as a result of somebody suing you? Do you think that the minister would make a court appearance to reiterate his claim that the householder wasn't liable?

b) Why did it take two weeks before making this statement?

gnxx

ednwireland wrote: »

i've never heard such rubbish either, sorry but how much council tax do you pay ? the only local taxes in this country are motor tax and business rates, do you reallly think councils have the manpower to go round clearing every estate, when i was a kid everyone was out clearing the paths when it snowed.
maybe i'm just odd not expecting the council to do everything (and i'm not irish)

and as far as i can see the show was a winge fest

I'm not suggesting that every estate is cleared, but the main streets in most towns in the country were left in an appalling state for more than two weeks.

Euro_Kraut

donegalfella wrote: »

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Many other European Countries have even greater public welfare provision and yet do not possess the attitude you have identified. (I can speak from personal experience of German and Austria) One of my big gripes with Irish society and political discourse is 'Irish exceptalism' where by we believe that we are the only country to have ever faced our particular set of problems.

To be honest I think the 'moaning' is more from the media than the people. Cold, honest and non-sensational analysis of a situation does not give high ratings or sell newspapers.

InReality

AJ STYLES wrote: »

i agree donegalfella, but sadly this is the dominant mindset in the country which is only further propagated by this leftist media we have.

it will be hard to reverse this sense of entitlement.

Yeah especially the biggest selling sunday papers , sunday indo and sunday world .
left wing rubbish .

And of course the sunday business post .
:rolleyes:

imme

AJ STYLES wrote: »

i agree donegalfella, but sadly this is the dominant mindset in the country which is only further propagated by this leftist media we have.

it will be hard to reverse this sense of entitlement.

yeah because the Independent Group of newspapers, Pat Kenny, Irish Daily Mail, Sky News, Sunday Times, The Sunday Business Post, The Sun, Today FM are all so left wing.
I don't see any conspiracy here. Frontline sets itself up as a hard hitting news/current affairs programme, what attitude would you expect them to take, everything was handled fine? They took a position elucidated on Boards by others that the government (national and local) was found wanting at the beginning of the recent snow.

dvpower

ei.sdraob wrote: »

who elected the government?

It was the Dáil:rolleyes:

Permabear

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imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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I thought you believed we (Irish people or Irish state, not sure) were statist?

Riskymove

gnxx wrote: »

b) Why did it take two weeks before making this statement?

is it John Gormley's job to look into every rumour on the internet and publish legal advice on it?

ei.sdraob

dvpower wrote: »

It was the Dáil:rolleyes:

and the Dáil elected themselves in :rolleyes:

Permabear

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gnxx

Riskymove wrote: »

is it John Gormley's job to look into every rumour on the internet and publish legal advice on it?

I never said Internet. I used the term rumour because I couldn't think of a better way of describing this particular piece of "advice".

It was widely reported in mainstream press. Here is one such link but I'm sure if you are interested you could find hundreds.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0109/breaking27.htm

lugha

Riskymove wrote: »

is it John Gormley's job to look into every rumour on the internet and publish legal advice on it?

It was more than an internet rumour. RTE interviewed a solicitor who more or less said if you clear a path, but don't do it properly (i.e. give to understand that the path is safe to use when it isn't), you can be held liable. And I expect he knows what he is talking about. That doesn't necessarily contradict what Gormley said. Perhaps if you either clear a path properly, or not at all, you're ok.
Is there a lawyer in the house?

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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I have looked at the Frontline ep of which you speak on the RTE Player (a wonderful resource btw, left-wing dominated RTE to be congratulated:D). The entire audience didn't get to contribute. I don't know the views of the entire audience. I belive those that were televised on frontline didn't universally have the 'government should do everything for me/solve all my problems' attitude. If for example a 5-km road in the countryside is icy and has 6 families that access it/use it. Should it be the job of the state (in whatever guise) to grit it? Should it be the job of the inhabitants who seek to use the road to keep it free from ice. It is a public road after all. I'm not saying that every km of road should be gritted, that would be impractical. I believe the programme raised serious concerns.