HKC V Segnet systems??

Dan_

Hi guys

After a bit of info between the main differences or pros and cons of the HKC and signet panels?

I use the HKC all the time for the company i work for, and they never seem to use the signet, i have repaired one before but never fitted one from scratch.

HKC Secure Watch:
Easy to install
Easy to use / user friendly
Not too expensive
Plug on modem card and easy programming

Can anybody help add to list and start a signet list, and a con's list. Might help people who are thinking of upgrading.

KoolKid

SigNet Pros
Easy to Install
Newer technology
Starts at same price as HKC
Plug on Modems /GSM
X10 Ready
Connects to PC
Cause & effect to switch outputs & X10
Remote access
Infinate Log
More user codes
More control via time/calanders
Integrated wireless

I'll post more as I think of them.
I honestly cant think of one reason to install HKC over SigNet

Dan_

X10 would not appeal to me anyway i feel its a bit to old an Diy looking for me, but its good for people who have some installed in their homes, also the remote access is a nice feature!

Is there a big difference between the 100 and the 200/300? just more users and zones.

The build in wireless module is of huge use to some installations!

KoolKid

Dan_ wrote: »

X10 would not appeal to me anyway i feel its a bit to old an Diy looking for me,

How is it DiY looking??

Dan_ wrote: »

Is there a big difference between the 100 and the 200/300? just more users and zones.

Pretty much the 200 has 128 zones & users
300 has 256
220 & 300 has built in web server for better remote access.
200,220 & 300 have more X10 features. & extra outputs plus extra comms ports/bus

Dan_

i know a lot of people do like them and to be honest i never used any, but i don't like the look of them ...the socket looks like one of them cheap timers and what if you have spotlights using 3 or 4 different switch wires? and not just a ceiling rose?

i do like home automation and am looking into different systems i might install in my own house but x10 i think is not the way to go.

Can you on the, 100, access the system over a broad band connection? and use the remote sms access over a standard pstn line?

If so then i agree with you '' I honestly cant think of one reason to install HKC over SigNet ''

KoolKid

You should take a look at the 2nd generation sockets etc..
For access over broadband SigNet 220 or 300 is required.

Dan_

koolkid wrote: »

You should take a look at the 2nd generation sockets etc..
For access over broadband SigNet 220 or 300 is required.

Thanks for the information, ill get one to play around with, and see if i can convince my boss to start using it, its an all round better panel than the hkc.

altor

HKC Secure Watch:
Easy to install
Easy to use / user friendly
Not too expensive
Plug on modem card and easy programming
REMOTE ACCESS VIA GSM
EVENT TIMERS
SMARTLIGHT TIMERS
SMARTDOOR TIMERS
POINT ID CONTACTS
POINT ID INERTIAS
POINT ID INERTIA/CONTACTS
POINT ID MOTION DETECTORS
WIRE FREE COMING SOON

Dan_

altor wrote: »

HKC Secure Watch:
Easy to install
Easy to use / user friendly
Not too expensive
Plug on modem card and easy programming
REMOTE ACCESS VIA GSM
EVENT TIMERS
SMARTLIGHT TIMERS
SMARTDOOR TIMERS
POINT ID CONTACTS
POINT ID INERTIAS
POINT ID INERTIA/CONTACTS
POINT ID MOTION DETECTORS
WIRE FREE COMING SOON

wire free is a long time coming..but i think its out now ..and its coming out with out a wireless keypad! keypad not out untill maybe march which is December for hkc

But i totally forgot about the point id stuff which is so handy in some places.

But with built in wireless on the signet, you have the best of both worlds!

altor

Dan_ wrote: »

But with built in wireless on the signet, you have the best of both worlds!

A quick bridge will add the wireless feature to any panel. Another good hybrid system is the ATS from aritech. Have you used this system yet ?

Dan_

the quick bridge is always an option if you require wireless on the hkc but when you factor in the price of the panel and quick bridge ..it make more sense to go aritec or signet.

But for a small pre wired house , and if the customer wants a simple alarm then i would probably still go hkc

altor

Dan_ wrote: »

the quick bridge is always an option if you require wireless on the hkc but when you factor in the price of the panel and quick bridge ..it make more sense to go aritec or signet.

You still have to buy the wireless receiver for the signet, just like aritech.

Dan_ wrote: »

But for a small pre wired house , and if the customer wants a simple alarm then i would probably still go hkc

Any of the alarms out there will cover this be that HKC, ARITECH, ASTEC or SIGNET.

Dan_

the signet has a built in wireless module?

altor

Dan_ wrote: »

the signet has a built in wireless module?

The 200 and the 300 has, not the 100.

Dan_

didn't know that. Which do you prefer to use? out of the hkc aritec and scoptronic.

altor

Dan_ wrote: »

didn't know that. Which do you prefer to use? out of the hkc aritec and scoptronic.

The ATS from aritech or the HKC, depends on what the customer needs installed. The HKC with point id sensors is handy for motions off any cable in the house plus with the text dialer it says what point has activated e.g point 51 kitchen window, plus gives you a verified text when a beam or second device has being activated in the premises.
The ATS is good if you cant get a cable to a point for a beam or you have a cable broken as you just put in the receiver and stick the wirefree device on it.
The astec fusion is also like the HKC system, very easy to install plus it can use two wires to get you out of a hole so there are many options out there for installers.

Either one works for me, the signet in my own opinion is for commercial premises. Who is going to use access control, cause & effect to switch outputs & X10, Infinate Log, user codes of up to 200 or control via time/calanders on there house.

Jnealon

Signet for me anytime. If you asked me 18 months ago I might have said HKC or Aritech but not now. I think all the reasons have been listed.
The x10 is a bit of a gimmick and is a bit dated but the usb connection is a big plus
The signet 100 does come with the RF module. The last batch of panels I bought had them and all for the same price as the HKC.
If you went to Norbain they will sell it without the RF at a cheaper price but at this moment in time Norbain are not selling Europlex

KoolKid

WRT the SigNet being a commercial panel. The SigNet 100 is obviousally aimed at the domestic market. I would consider the ATS much more of a commercial panel. The ATS also incorporates Access control so I don't understand slating one panel for having it while recommending another for having the same feature.
The X10 may seem like a gimmick but once the practical applications are explained to people they really go for it. We do a basic package incorporating 2 lamps ,1 appliance switch & 1 heating switch. The 2 lamps & heating is what everyone uses. Who last week would not have been delighted to turn on their heating on the way home..
Usually I get customers calling me back after think up some new applications themselves.
However even without X10 feature the SigNet is simply miles ahead of HKC.
There is not one feature HKC has over the SigNet & with both coming in around the same cost I cant offer one logical reasong to be still installing HKC.
The point ID sensors are also old technology which was short lived & created more problems than they solved. With larger zone capacity, there is no excuse for more than 2-3 sensors on any individual zone.

altor

I am not slating the signet, just giving my opinion and options. What type problems ? I have never had any problems with them..
You say about old technology, but correct me if i am wrong dont signet use visonic wire free sensors.. How old is that technology ?

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I am not slating the signet, just giving my opinion and options. What type problems ? I have never had any problems with them..
You say about old technology, but correct me if i am wrong dont signet use visonic wire free sensors.. How old is that technology ?

The problems with HKC Poind ID sensors losing comms & voltage drop issues were well documented at the time.
WRT to the technology involved I am referring to the control equipment.
WRT Visonic Sensors I would use 868Mhz over Aritechs 433mhz any day.

Like I said I have still to hear a single feature HKC has over SigNet.
I don't understand companys hangine onto old technology.
If we all did that we would still be installing Horizon & Itec systems.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

The problems with HKC Poind ID sensors losing comms & voltage drop issues were well documented at the time.

So your talking about the old type ID SENSORS. This problem has being rectified a long time.

koolkid wrote: »

WRT to the technology involved I am referring to the control equipment.

If you look at the list you gave it has Integrated wireless added in by yourself.

koolkid wrote: »

WRT Visonic Sensors I would use 433Mhz over Aritechs 868mhz any day.

433Mhz has so many gadgets on it at this stage that interfer with the alarm. Time to move on from this and use the 868mhz.

koolkid wrote: »

I don't understand companys hangine onto old technology.
If we all did that we would still be installing Horizon & Itec systems.

The HKC is up to the EN50131 standards used today. The Horizon & Itec system are not. At the end of the day if a customer wants extras installed to control heating, turn on lights it can be done with or with out any alarm installed. That does not make the HKC panel less of an alarm than the signet.

Jnealon

Just to clarify the signet is 868mhz and not 433mhz

altor

Jnealon wrote: »

Just to clarify the signet is 868mhz and not 433mhz

Dont you mean the wirefree sensors made by visonic use 868mhz not 433mhz

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

So your talking about the old type ID SENSORS. This problem has being rectified a long time.

Maybe so . But I still see little need for them in todays markey.

altor wrote: »

If you look at the list you gave it has Integrated wireless added in by yourself.

I am still referring to the control equipment.

altor wrote: »

433Mhz has so many gadgets on it at this stage that interfer with the alarm. Time to move on from this and use the 868mhz.

Apologies . In my previous post I got the frequencies the wrong way around(Corrected now). Your well up in the business you know what I ment. And as jnealon correctly pointed out SigNet do use the more reliable 868 MHz

altor wrote: »

The HKC is up to the EN50131 standards used today. The Horizon & Itec system are not. At the end of the day if a customer wants extras installed to control heating, turn on lights it can be done with or with out any alarm installed. That does not make the HKC panel less of an alarm than the signet.

What makes it less of a panel is simply this. It is older technology with less features. Answer this honestly , if you were buying a PC would you pay the same for what is standard spec today to what was a standard spec 5 years ago?
The standards are not in dispute. But again I ask Name one feature the HKC has over the SigNet?

altor

koolkid wrote: »

But again I ask Name one feature the HKC has over the SigNet?

Yes i can.
The HKC system has the ability to put 40 point id sensors on it, be that contacts, inertias, inertia/contacts, motions and each one is given its own point on the alarm so the system can tell which sensor has activated.

You would need 40 zones on the signet to do this, but the signet 100 only has 8 zones..

KoolKid

Seriousally???
Does anyone still use those?
If you are comparing to the SigNet 100 then its logical to assume your referring to a domestic application. Please tell me you wouldn't consider it on a commercial or industril application?
In a house ??40 Point Ids???
Come on!!!

Jnealon

ID sensors, bring me back to the old Identifier. There wasn't much of a demand for them back then and there still isn't any demand for them now

altor

koolkid wrote: »

Seriousally???
Does anyone still use those?
If you are comparing to the SigNet 100 then its logical to assume your referring to a domestic application. Please tell me you wouldn't consider it on a commercial or industril application?
In a house ??40 Point Ids???
Come on!!!

I was using the basic signet panel as an example..
You asked for one feature the HKC has over the SigNet and thats what you got..

KoolKid

No need to get so uptight about it..
Come on thats like saying a key swicth was a feature that no longer available.
There really is no compariosn, It remindes me of the time the Aritech CD range was being phased out. Lots of installers couldn't let go. They were afraid to get out of their comfort zone.
You have to be honest & admit it. Comparing like with like & price with price the SigNet 100 is a far superior panel & much better value.
Are you saying the only reason you still install HKC is for ID sensors?

altor

koolkid wrote: »

Are you saying the only reason you still install HKC is for ID sensors?

I use and install what ever suits a customers house just like yourself. There are so many different alarms out there to choose from that are up to the EN50131 standard. I am sure the signet is not the only alarm you install..

altor

Jnealon wrote: »

ID sensors, bring me back to the old Identifier. There wasn't much of a demand for them back then and there still isn't any demand for them now

That why HKC developed there ID motion detector, no demand on the market for them

KoolKid

If you not going to answer my questions then just drop it.
ID sensors are rarely used know & you should know that.
I certinly would no longer use them in a domestic application would you?
There is definitly no application I could think of for putting 40 into a domestic system like you suggested while comparing to SigNet 100.

Lets debate this sensibly & logically & lets not get trivial.
The OP asked for the pros & cons of SigNet vs HKC
I could not find one benefit to HKC,
So far the only "feature" HKC has over SigNet is Point ID, pointed out by yourself. So wouldn't if be logical then to say that . If price is not an issue as they are comparable on price, if there is no other feature that HKC has over SigNet, then the only reason to choose HKC is if the application requires Point ID sensors.??
Why else would you want a lower spec system??

altor

koolkid wrote: »

If you not going to answer my questions then just drop it.
ID sensors are rarely used know & you should know that.
I certinly would no longer use them in a domestic application would you?
There is definitly no application I could think of for putting 40 into a domestic system like you suggested while comparing to SigNet 100.

Lets debate this sensibly & logically & lets not get trivial.
The OP asked for the pros & cons of SigNet vs HKC
I could not find one benefit to HKC,
So far the only "feature" HKC has over SigNet is Point ID, pointed out by yourself. So wouldn't if be logical then to say that . If price is not an issue as they are comparable on price, if there is no other feature that HKC has over SigNet, then the only reason to choose HKC is if the application requires Point ID sensors.??
Why else would you want a lower spec system??

I am entitled to my opinion just like you are. You asked me to name one feature the HKC has that the signet does not and i did, just because that does not suit you you say it is trivial. I also pointed out that i install whatever suits a customers house, not just HKC as you would of thought i said by the way your going on here. So if anyone here should drop it i think you should..

ENJOY THE REST OF THIS TREAD AS I WONT BE POSTING IN IT AGAIN..

ALTOR

KoolKid

Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion thats what boards is all about. However good debate involves questions and answers. Answering one question and refusing to answer others just loses you the argument and shows your unwillingness to accept change. A good indication as to why you are so hung up on HKC.
Anyway for the benefit of the OP I would love for someone to post some honest,convincing argument for HKC. But I dont think there is one.

dandoyle

hi. i got a quote for a hkc and segnet alarm for a new build.
the hkc alarm worked out cheaper. now my questions is as follows.
if my alarm is a hkc alarm and my next door neighbours house is a segnet alarm, is there any difference if someone trys to break in ?

KoolKid

One the quote you got you should shop around. SigNet should come in at the Same price as HKC. Was it a SigNet 100 you priced.
Is there any difference between the 2 if someone breaks in??
Yes there is. SigNet can be comissioned to do a lot mor in the event of an activation.

dandoyle

thanks for reply. if i have sensors on my windows and doors and two pir detectors on both alarms types. same spec for both, how will they compare ?

KoolKid

They will both protect you home & bell will ring if its activated.
After that its the features that seperate them.
Once again HKC is using technology that is over 10 years old.
A ten year old mobile & one you buy today will both make phone calls & send text messages, but if they are the same price which one would you want?

dandoyle

koolkid wrote: »

They will both protect you home & bell will ring if its activated.

thanks koolki. thats all i wanted to know.

EvilMonkey

koolkid wrote: »

They will both protect you home & bell will ring if its activated.
After that its the features that seperate them.
Once again HKC is using technology that is over 10 years old.
A ten year old mobile & one you buy today will both make phone calls & send text messages, but if they are the same price which one would you want?

If i only wanted to make phone calls & send text messages, the older one assuming its still supported.
Less chance of problems, less extra complexity to go wrong. 10 years for the manufacture to sort out design problems etc.

KoolKid

EvilMonkey wrote: »

If i only wanted to make phone calls & send text messages, the older one assuming its still supported.
Less chance of problems, less extra complexity to go wrong. 10 years for the manufacture to sort out design problems etc.

????????? A strange outlook. One that is not supported by the years of work HKC put into thier ID sensors. Still rife with problems.
Is any other 10 year old technology more reliable?
Maybe we should go back to fitting Vista 5s:rolleyes:

EvilMonkey

koolkid wrote: »

????????? A strange outlook. One that is not supported by the years of work HKC put into thier ID sensors. Still rife with problems.
Is any other 10 year old technology more reliable?
Maybe we should go back to fitting Vista 5s:rolleyes:

Do you use their id sensors much? how do you know their rife with problems?

No Vista 5 are not supported any more no new updates or revisions and not up to standard. Funnily enough there is still a good few of them hanging in though.

From a manufacturing product development cycle, a mature product will have less problems than a new one.
Im not sure if the latest revision of HKCs panel is 10 years old anyway. As demand increases for other features like wireless for example they will be added and new updated revisions will be released.

If they put everything in a new box, made a new keypad and gave the panel a new name would it still be 10 year old tech?

KoolKid

I have used ID sensors and I take them out regularly because of issues.
The panels are old technology. If you got a Nokia 5110 and upgraded to the latest softwate would it be as good as newer models available?

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

The 200 and the 300 has, not the 100.

Signet 100s comes with wireless..

EvilMonkey

koolkid wrote: »

I have used ID sensors and I take them out regularly because of issues.
The panels are old technology. If you got a Nokia 5110 and upgraded to the latest softwate would it be as good as newer models available?

No, but if i put the latest hkc chip/software into a 10 year old hkc panel it wouldn't work either.

KoolKid

Not correct...
Providing the panel model is the same (ie 8/12 or 16/120) then the software version can be upgraded)

.G.

The oldest panels cannot be flashed with the newest version unless it has been previously flashed before with an interim software version.It might look on the surface as it's the old panel running the new software but it has to have been upgraded before to make this possible.