Pete Carroll Blues

Black Swan

Pete Carroll leaves USC Trojans to coach the Seattle Seahawks. It's grand that the NFL recruits our best players, but now they have taken our best coach.

Carroll failed twice in the past with the Pros, does anyone think he will succeed on his third try?

themont85

Bill bellichek 'failed' in his first head coaching job and now is considered alongside bill walsh, Paul brown, parcells, Lombardi and landry. Carroll has that NFL experience and succesful college too of course. I think he can do well, at the very least he'll make them competative in the west soon.

davyjose

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Pete Carroll leaves USC Trojans to coach the Seattle Seahawks. It's grand that the NFL recruits our best players, but now they have taken our best coach.

Carroll failed twice in the past with the Pros, does anyone think he will succeed on his third try?

I'm not sure. i think he'll find it difficult. Peter King discussed it on MMQB and basically pointed out that it's VERY rare for a College Coach to move to NFL, and succeed. And Dungy alluded to it as well, saying something like "it's easier to get through to poor 19 year olds, than it is rich 25 year olds."

If any coach can do it, though, it's him. And Seattle are a good organisation, so who knows.


i didn't know it was a done deal. So much for Dan Rooney's rule :rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

Hmm, first off I am absolutely shocked that he decided to leave USC. I just assumed that he would stay there until he retired.

Now, I am skeptical as to whether he will get it done in the NFL. Carroll is one of the best in game coaches working in football at any level - an agressive playcaller and adjuster. That is a big plus point for him no doubt. However, the other huge strength that he demonstrated over the past decade is an exceptional ability to recruit the top talent out of Highschool year after year. USC have consistently enjoyed a huge advantage in terms of the relative skill and depth of their roster in comparison to other schools in the Pac-10.

Unfortunately, those advantages will not be available to him in the NFL. The Seahawks have a lot of needs right now, but realistically no roster in the NFL has the type of talent disparity that USC often have working in their favour. It remains to be seen how competent Carroll is on the training ground from Monday to Saturday (or Sunday to Friday in the case of USC). It's an aspect of the game he hasn't had to be particularly proficient in to date, and it is the key part of being a succesful NFL Head Coach.

In anycase, the remuneration package is probably insane. And if / when it doesn't work out he will be highly sought after in the college world. There isn't a massive amount of risk involved from his perspective. But I remain surprised at his decision nontheless.

---

As for USC, the school will still have a lot of advantages in the aftermath of Carroll's departure. Southern California and LA are pretty huge draws to the type of top class athlete that is looking for a stepping stone on the way to the NFL, and the program has a rich tradition and history.

HOWEVER, it is very important to note that they had some very poor seasons in the years before Carroll took over. Coaches are a massive part of the equation for a successful college football program, because recruiting is so crucial to success. It would be dangerous to assume that USC will be able to seemlessly move forward from this event.

frostie500

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Carroll failed twice in the past with the Pros, does anyone think he will succeed on his third try?

Id agree with theMont, he wasnt a failure but he wasnt successful in the NFL-was mediocure. He now goes into a situation where he needs to draft a franchise QB, LT and running back on offence and mould a top class unit out of what has been a poor defence(some good players on it but overall poor to average.) Caroll will be able to get the defence playing to a decent level pretty soon, his SC defences were always very good. You may even see him use the early draft pick on Taylor Mays if he goes defensivly with the choice.

As much as I admire Pete Caroll, I cant see this team being successful short term. Hasselbeck is getting old and has had numerous injuries twart him the past three seasons, their O-line is very poor these days which has slowed the running game each season. Over time, if he's given the time, Caroll is a good enough coach to get the ship in order but the college game is so different to the pros and you have to ask will Caroll be as good at motivating a team in the pros as he was in college. Pros will not react to the same methods as college players.

Its things like the above and Will Ferrell coming onto the practice field that made SC an attractive college for recruits, men making their livlihood out of playing probably wont react in the manner that Caroll was able to cultivate into continued success

eagle eye

I think Pete Carroll will do really well in the NFL. This years draft where he has two early first rounders is a great start and nobody knows the players coming out better than Pete Carroll and his team.

I expect him to have this team competitive next season and back in contention for Divisional honours in two years time.

frostie500

eagle eye wrote: »

nobody knows the players coming out better than Pete Carroll and his team

I wouldnt be so sure of his knowledge outside of the Pac-10 and Ohio State and Notre Dame. He wouldnt have put any time into knowing about players outside of who the Trojans actually faced-it would be a misuse of resources and keep them from their goal of winning matches and titles. Himself and his scouts will have just as much work to do.

The one thing he will know about though is Mays. He entered the year as the top safety and after being scrutinised so closely by the media has seen his draft stock fall and percieved shortcomings surface, Caroll will know whether a player such as Mays is worthy of an early draft pick as well as other prospects from the aformentioned teams he coached against.

eagle eye

frostie500 wrote: »

I wouldnt be so sure of his knowledge outside of the Pac-10 and Ohio State and Notre Dame. He wouldnt have put any time into knowing about players outside of who the Trojans actually faced-it would be a misuse of resources and keep them from their goal of winning matches and titles. Himself and his scouts will have just as much work to do.

The one thing he will know about though is Mays. He entered the year as the top safety and after being scrutinised so closely by the media has seen his draft stock fall and percieved shortcomings surface, Caroll will know whether a player such as Mays is worthy of an early draft pick as well as other prospects from the aformentioned teams he coached against.

He would have lots of information on these guys from college recruitment, he would be aware of players that were unhappy or troublesome with their college as there is always a chance to bring them over to USC if they were worthwhile and possibly available.
As for Mays, he certainly does not need him with Grant and Babineaux as the two starters. I suppose you could always do with another one but they have too many glaring needs to take a safety early in the draft.
I don't know if he will take a QB but I don't think its his most pressing need by any stretch. I predict he will take either Russell Okung or Bruce Campbell with his first pick and then Derrick Morgan or Everson Griffen with his second pick.

frostie500

eagle eye wrote: »

He would have lots of information on these guys from college recruitment, he would be aware of players that were unhappy or troublesome with their college as there is always a chance to bring them over to USC if they were worthwhile and possibly available.

I just dont think you can expect to win a national title while looking at players that you will not play against or are irrelevant to your ability to do your job and win football games. The NFL scouts college ball 365 days a year, it is in their interests to unearth a gem and know of more players then it is for a college coach of an individual team. They may know of players they attempted to recruit from high school but once those players choose another college team the data accumulated goes into a stock pile and scouting of them is discontinued because it doesnt help the coach to win games, and lets be honest, keep his job

eagle eye wrote: »

As for Mays, he certainly does not need him with Grant and Babineaux as the two starters. I suppose you could always do with another one but they have too many glaring needs to take a safety early in the draft.
I don't know if he will take a QB but I don't think its his most pressing need by any stretch. I predict he will take either Russell Okung or Bruce Campbell with his first pick and then Derrick Morgan or Everson Griffen with his second pick.

I was using Mays as an example of the players that Caroll will know more about then the average NFL scouting office. Mays stock has fallen a lot this year and he needs to perform well in workouts and the combine before he gets back to his previous standing. Caroll on the other hand obviously has an inside line on players from SC and the Pac-10. Youre right in saying that the 'hawks are set at Safety right now but if Caroll thinks highly enough of Mays he might take him so as to have a player that has already 'bought into' the Caroll philosphy along with the former Trojan Lofa Tatupu.

On the other side of the coin, how does everyone think SC will fare without Caroll? It was his personality and approach that made players want to play for SC and him that got the program going again after a long period in the doldroms. I think that they should be ok short term, the talent is there right now and the upcoming class should be impressive but further down the line the next coach has to able to recruit and hire as well as Caroll did if they are to maintain their position in college ball

jdivision

SC are a bit like Miami in the 90s, they set new trends in how to recruit players (seniority didn't count) but now everybody else has copied them so they're going to suffer a bit. it's a natural thing.

Black Swan

frostie500 wrote: »

On the other side of the coin, how does everyone think SC will fare without Caroll?

Not only is Carroll leaving USC, but he is taking some of his coaching staff with him, cannibalizing the programme without regard to what this may do to the Trojans.

Further, there are strong rumours that suggest many of the high school recruits that had accepted offers to play for USC may go elsewhere, now that they know Carroll has left.

There is the ongoing civil litigation against Reggie Bush, which also tends to leave a negative hue over USC and what sanctions may be imposed if the plaintiffs successfully prosecute their case, and how the NCAA may view such adjudication ex post facto.

Karlusss

frostie500 wrote: »

He now goes into a situation where he needs to draft a franchise QB

I wouldn't exactly categorise the Seahawks like that. That implies a first rounder, someone who can play immediately. If they can convince Hasselbeck to drink a bit more milk this offseason they still have a properly high level quarterback there. They could draft one high, but they wouldn't be getting full value from their pick IMO.

Side point, sorry.

eagle eye

I think they need to get Steve Sarkisian back, he did a great job there and would provide continuity even if he has been gone for a year.

I see some very strange names being associated with the job, such as Herm Edwards who I don't think would be a good candidate.

The other guy that comes to mind for me immediately is Jim Mora, I wonder would he be interested? I really like his passion for the game and he reminds me of a younger Pete Carroll.

Hynzie

Apparently Lane Kiffin will become the new head Coach at USC.

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=4820737

Obviously he has a link to USC having worked there before but I cant believe hes leaving Tennessee after one season!! This has been one crazy crazy off season so far!!

Nick Saban is thrilled I reckon. First Urban Meyer stepping away for a while and now an program in Tennessee that was potentially on its way back lose's its coach.

Chucky the tree

Good signing for USC, shouldnt have any problem attracting recruits now anyway especially with Monte as DC.

tallaghtoutlaws

Hynzie wrote: »

Apparently Lane Kiffin will become the new head Coach at USC.

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=4820737

Obviously he has a link to USC having worked there before but I cant believe hes leaving Tennessee after one season!! This has been one crazy crazy off season so far!!

Nick Saban is thrilled I reckon. First Urban Meyer stepping away for a while and now an program in Tennessee that was potentially on its way back lose's its coach.

Excellent move for both USC and Kiffin. To be honest Hynzie why wouldn't he move. Better chance getting a National Championship at SC than he would with the Vols.

As for Carroll I for one am Happy to see him make the move back into the NFL. He has more coaching experience under his belt and I am sure he has grown as a Coach who is now ready to take on the NFL properly.

Sorry to say Blue and I know it upsets SC folk but why wouldn't he take some of his coaching staff with him. He knows these guys inside out and trusts them as coaches to do the job well for him. He knows they will follow his lead no matter what.

As for the Seahawks sure College ball is a different kettle of fish when it comes to recruiting and the mentality of the Athletes but I'm sure at his USC tenure he has kept a close eye on the rest of D1 football around him. There are some coaches who know players outside their required bubble. Some coaches like to know who is the best of the best. Besides they are like the rest of us they have ears and eyes and with the coverage in the US they have the news every where they look with sportscentre and the likes.

I can see him doing a very good job at the Seahawks.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

i didn't know it was a done deal. So much for Dan Rooney's rule :rolleyes:

According to the Seahwaks they interviewed minority candidates for the job. And it was apparently established they followed the ruling.

Hynzie

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Excellent move for both USC and Kiffin. To be honest Hynzie why wouldn't he move. Better chance getting a National Championship at SC than he would with the Vols.

Yeah I agree it is a great career move for him. What I meant was Im shocked that hes already out of Tennessee after just one year.

It will be interesting to see if this move has an effect on his recruiting. His dumping of the Vols will surely be brought up in the living rooms of potential recruits by rival schools.

frostie500

Woke up this morning and checked the news and I was shocked at this hiring. With SC in turmoil over recruiting violations in multiple sports, issues with players getting gifts, the drug issue with a former coach, multiple NCAA investigations ongoing with punishment being all but inevitable they go out and hire a coach with numerous recruiting violations and NCAA investigations against him for his policies with the Vols. Was this hire just to make it easy for the NCAA to find their poster boy for punishment and their new poster program for how not to do it? Hiring Kiffin, a former Caroll assistant and long term Trojan coach at this time seems nonsensical. He was brought up in the culture at SC that 'we can do as we please because no sanctions are forthcoming,' is it likely that he will change his tactics and the schools tactics and get the SC program to run smoothly?

At any other time I would think of this as being a decent hire, not great because Kiffin is being hired due to his potential to be a great coach(as of right now he has achieved aboslutly nothing as a head coach in either previous positions), and an incredible back room staff of Monte Kiffin as DC, Norm Chow coming in as OC and Ed Orgeron as his main recruiter. If I was an SC fan I would be worried about the loyalty that Kiffin will have for the program when an NFL job comes up. He has walked out of the Vols was sacked by the Raiders. When he was sacked by Oakland and Al Davis came out calling him a liar and a cheat we all took as Davis being Davis but when you look at his actions as coach of the Vols Davis allegations get quite a bit more traction. If I was an SC fan I wouldn’t be too thrilled about the hiring of a man that has shown repeatedly that he feels he is above the laws of recruiting and conduct of a head coach for a major program in college football

frostie500

Karlusss wrote: »

I wouldn't exactly categorise the Seahawks like that. That implies a first rounder, someone who can play immediately. If they can convince Hasselbeck to drink a bit more milk this offseason they still have a properly high level quarterback there. They could draft one high, but they wouldn't be getting full value from their pick IMO.

Side point, sorry.

I wouldnt view a franchise QB to be a guy to play from the first day of training camp. I think its a guy that can be a starter for ten years. In fact most times its better to have a guy sit for a year behind a Matt Hasselbeck type and learn the NFL and the system. Hasselbeck is 35 now and he wont be playing in the NFL a few years down the line with the talent available at QB in this draft they should look to get his potential replacement. They dont have to use their first pick for a QB unless they fall in love with one but with a mid first round choice and an early second rounder they should get a QB.

Probably some of the best news for a team like the 'Hawks was Colt McCoy getting injured in the national title game, it allows him to stay as a potential second rounder. Jevon Sneed coming out(foolishy I think) means there is a gut that came into the year as one of the top pro prospects available in the second or third round.

Black Swan

frostie500 wrote: »

At any other time I would think of this as being a decent hire

This is what students are saying, especially its timeliness, in order that we don't lose too many recruits that claimed they were coming to USC before the Carroll announcement.

frostie500 wrote: »

an incredible back room staff of Monte Kiffin as DC, Norm Chow coming in as OC and Ed Orgeron as his main recruiter.

This helped a lot, given that Carroll took his coaching staff to the Seahawks... and Norm Chow is grand indeed!

frostie500 wrote: »

If I was an SC fan I would be worried about the loyalty that Kiffin will have for the program when an NFL job comes up.

Well, almost everyone on campus believed in Carroll, and that he would stay forever, but "Money talked, and Carroll walked." He did give us 7 PAC-10 wins and 2 national championships, and almost a 3rd but for awesome QB Young and the Longhorns. Carroll is now acting in his own self-interest, which Kiffin or any other college coach might do if they made them an offer they could not refuse like the Seahawks did with Carroll?

frostie500

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Well, almost everyone on campus believed in Carroll, and that he would stay forever, but "Money talked, and Carroll walked." He did give us 7 PAC-10 wins and 2 national championships, and almost a 3rd but for awesome QB Young and the Longhorns. Carroll is now acting in his own self-interest, which Kiffin or any other college coach might do if they made them an offer they could not refuse like the Seahawks did with Carroll?

Caroll gave the Trojans ten years, with Kiffins track record I'd be suprised to see him there for ten years. Caroll did act in his own 'self interest' to a point. If Caroll stays in charge and two months down the line the NCAA investigators have their case completed and start callin in Trojan staff and players to their grand hearings Caroll has to appear and testify truthfully. With that being the case the Trojans will lose at least one title and numerous PAC-10 titles, possibly them all. By bolting to the NFL he can not be called by the hearing and hence he, SC, his players and his former staff stand a chance of keeping their tiltes.

I think that Caroll showed great loyalty to the program over his tenure(again Kiffin has not shown loyalty to anyone but himself) and he now can see what he built falling apart, another poster compared it to Miami in the 90's, and Caroll decided to leave. If I was an SC fan I would give him the benefit of the doubt before lumping him in with a Kiffin, Bobby Peterno or indeed a Nick Saban when he was with the Dolphins

davyjose

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Well, almost everyone on campus believed in Carroll, and that he would stay forever, but "Money talked, and Carroll walked."

Give the guy a break. In fairness, I understand that being in a college like USC or Florida there must be an incredible sense of team loyalty, almost like a mini nation, but despite CFB's 100 thousand seater stadia, the NFL is the pinnacle of the Sport. In terms of fandom, College Football is king, in everything else (including coaching) NFL is.
The guy has done it all at USC. He wants to move on and try his hand in the big leagues. It's not like the guy sneaked off to a rival team. he earned his place in history there. Be thankful. I can't get my head around the lack of gratitude coming off USC fans tbh.

tallaghtoutlaws

You know the attitude from SC folk is shocking. The man gave you one of the best decades in the Schools history and now he looks to try make his way into the NFL all of sudden he is an a$$hole. Build a fooking bridge already. Did you expect him to stay in SC for life? He came from the NFL lets not forget that. Which means in the back of his mind he must have always thought of maybe one day going back.

You would swear he murdered someone.

As for Kiffin he will stay long enough to see if he can turn the team back into a BCS candidate and if he can't he will leave but give the guy a break also. Give him a chance to do something first before shooting him down. Sure he isn't the most loyal coach when it comes to long term jobs but who knows if he is successful in SC he might give you a solid 10 years.

1 week goes by and you would swear the world has ended for USC.

Royal Seahawk

frostie500 wrote: »

I wouldnt view a franchise QB to be a guy to play from the first day of training camp. I think its a guy that can be a starter for ten years. In fact most times its better to have a guy sit for a year behind a Matt Hasselbeck type and learn the NFL and the system. Hasselbeck is 35 now and he wont be playing in the NFL a few years down the line with the talent available at QB in this draft they should look to get his potential replacement. They dont have to use their first pick for a QB unless they fall in love with one but with a mid first round choice and an early second rounder they should get a QB.

Probably some of the best news for a team like the 'Hawks was Colt McCoy getting injured in the national title game, it allows him to stay as a potential second rounder. Jevon Sneed coming out(foolishy I think) means there is a gut that came into the year as one of the top pro prospects available in the second or third round.

I agree. With Hasselbeck now 35 it would be foolish to pass up on one of the many top quality QBs in this years draft, especially with 2 first round picks. Hasselbeck cannot be relied on because of his injuries and Seneca Wallace is nowhere near the standard required.
With Warner probably retiring WHEN the Cards get beaten next the NFC West will be up for grabs again. Hopefully Carroll can bring it back to its rightful home.

frostie500

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

As for Kiffin he will stay long enough to see if he can turn the team back into a BCS candidate and if he can't he will leave but give the guy a break also. Give him a chance to do something first before shooting him down. Sure he isn't the most loyal coach when it comes to long term jobs but who knows if he is successful in SC he might give you a solid 10 years.

To be honest my main beef is the decision to hire a coach that will recruit with full knowledge that he is breaking recruiting guidelines. He has said in the past that he takes it as a compliment to have his team under NCAA investigations in recruiting because it gets them publicity and shows how jealous other programs are of the class being put together. With all that is going on at SC is a man that brazenly breaks recruiting rules really the best man for the job?

I dont like how he walked out on the Vols after such a short period of time in charge after they gave him the chance to resurrect his career. His reputation was shot after the Raiders and yet he was given a head coaching job and a huge budget for hiring staff. I dont like how he had Ed Orgeron on the phone to players on the UT campass saying that they should back out of their agreements to the Vols and come to Southern Cal. Kiffin may well be a great head coach in the future, after all as OC in Southern Cal he was an integral part of their sucess but when you are a college like SC you dont need to hire based on a coaches potential, they have been the best team in college football over the last ten years(obviously followed closely by Florida and Oaklahoma). They surely could hire proven coaches at this level instead of hiring a head coach that hasnt achieved any level of sucess in football as a head coach.

When most schools are under investigation by the NCAA for a myriad of allegations they do all they can to show they are turning a corner and improving their practices, by hiring Lane Kiffin they are saying 'come and got us' to the NCAA. That is why I would be worried if I was an SC fan not because Kiffin is not talented, clearly there is a reason so many tams take a chance on him.

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

To be honest my main beef is the decision to hire a coach that will recruit with full knowledge that he is breaking recruiting guidelines. He has said in the past that he takes it as a compliment to have his team under NCAA investigations in recruiting because it gets them publicity and shows how jealous other programs are of the class being put together. With all that is going on at SC is a man that brazenly breaks recruiting rules really the best man for the job?

Obviously USC feel he is doing nothing wrong the fact they would take a chance on him. Am I not right in saying that the NCAA have never actually officially investigated Kiffin though? Sure he has used some very strange methods of recruiting but to be honest you would be naive to think he is the only one. Like the Recruit intern he accompanied him to Florida to the interns ex HS. This kind of thing i am pretty sure happens a lot.

I dont like how he walked out on the Vols after such a short period of time in charge after they gave him the chance to resurrect his career. His reputation was shot after the Raiders and yet he was given a head coaching job and a huge budget for hiring staff. I dont like how he had Ed Orgeron on the phone to players on the UT campass saying that they should back out of their agreements to the Vols and come to Southern Cal. Kiffin may well be a great head coach in the future, after all as OC in Southern Cal he was an integral part of their sucess but when you are a college like SC you dont need to hire based on a coaches potential, they have been the best team in college football over the last ten years(obviously followed closely by Florida and Oaklahoma). They surely could hire proven coaches at this level instead of hiring a head coach that hasnt achieved any level of sucess in football as a head coach.

In fairness to Kiffin he did say that the only college he would have left the Vols for would have been USC. And as for the players if they haven't signed an agreement or gone to classes by enrolling early they are free to go where they want. Sure its not cool that Kiffin is calling prospects to change their minds but it is a dog eat dog world. Some of the prospects said they wont follow Kiffin to USC others are undecided and a couple of them said they wont go to either the Vols or SC.

When most schools are under investigation by the NCAA for a myriad of allegations they do all they can to show they are turning a corner and improving their practices, by hiring Lane Kiffin they are saying 'come and got us' to the NCAA. That is why I would be worried if I was an SC fan not because Kiffin is not talented, clearly there is a reason so many tams take a chance on him.

But the fact Kiffin never officially was investigated surely USC feel they are doing the right thing. They obviously feel his recruiting methods are well within the boundries and he is the right man for the job.

I do feel sorry for Tennesse don't get me wrong but this is the world we live in and unfortunately Kiffin sold out for the bigger college. You can't blame the man for wanting a college were if he plays his cards right he can become one of those successful coaches. With the recruiting USC does normally its a win win situation for him. Folk in SC need to give their Athletics Dept the benefit of the doubt and give Kiffin a chance.

themont85

I don't see why Kiffen is such a villain. He was at the Raiders if fairness, hardly the most stable of positions, you cant blame him for not getting on with Davies. Ye it sucks leaving a team after one year but this is his dream job in college football. People in other places aren't lampooned for switching from a job in Apple to Microsoft so why should he be? Put yourself in his shoes. He knows that USC is what he wants and that job may only come around in 10 years time again (I don't think its beyond the relms of possibility that the USC hire regardless of Kiffen could win National Championships and have a Carroll like decade). Where is he in 5-10 years? Is his stock nearly as high as it is now? You have to take your chance at the job when it comes calling or he could regret it forever.

frostie500

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Obviously USC feel he is doing nothing wrong the fact they would take a chance on him. Am I not right in saying that the NCAA have never actually officially investigated Kiffin though? Sure he has used some very strange methods of recruiting but to be honest you would be naive to think he is the only one. Like the Recruit intern he accompanied him to Florida to the interns ex HS. This kind of thing I am pretty sure happens a lot.

Kiffin was punished by the SEC for repeated violations. Admittedly most of these would be referred to as minor transgressions-referring to players by name in interviews prior to their signing, getting signed letters of intent faxed in from other recruits by fax machines other than their high schools, the Urban Meyer gaff where he didn’t know the rules of recruiting players on other college campuses. The NCAA has began investigation into the recruiting practices of the Vols during Kiffins tenure and his use of hostesses to influence players. This is probably as a result of the University of Washington (I think) and the rape case of recruits and hostesses a few years ago. I’m sure these things do happen with every coach but I feel that it’s foolish of the USC administrators to put themselves into a position whereby they might be seen as not trying to clear up their act. If this hiring was made at any other time I wouldn’t have an issue with it, but with everything going on at SC and the NCAA now I think they should have hired from outside of Pete Carolls coaching tree and brought in a head coach without the issues that Kiffin has had with recruiting and could keep a relatively low profile

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

In fairness to Kiffin he did say that the only college he would have left the Vols for would have been USC. And as for the players if they haven't signed an agreement or gone to classes by enrolling early they are free to go where they want. Sure its not cool that Kiffin is calling prospects to change their minds but it is a dog eat dog world. Some of the prospects said they wont follow Kiffin to USC others are undecided and a couple of them said they wont go to either the Vols or SC.

I don’t like that Kiffin left UT so soon but I do understand leaving for your dream job etc.

The players were already on campus in the locker room and therefore they will need to obtain permission from the NCAA to transfer to another program. They won’t be punished by having to sit out a year like other transfers because they were early enrollers and haven’t started class but Ed Oregon was calling from this UT phone to steal players from his former program. This is one of the unwritten rules that coaches do adhere to. Players call their recruiter after he leaves a team and look to transfer, that’s fine and accepted but a coach looking to poach talent. Again it’s not illegal but it’s not generally accepted by the coaching fraternity.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

I do feel sorry for Tennessee don't get me wrong but this is the world we live in and unfortunately Kiffin sold out for the bigger college. You can't blame the man for wanting a college were if he plays his cards right he can become one of those successful coaches. With the recruiting USC does normally it’s a win win situation for him. Folk in SC need to give their Athletics Dept the benefit of the doubt and give Kiffin a chance.

It is as you say a dog eat dog world and in all likelihood they will take some other teams head coach or head coach in waiting-Will Muschamp is the favourite so far. Kiffin will be able to bring in a top recruiting class consistently and recruiting in So Cal is a lot easier than in East Tennessee, it’s easy to understand why he left for SC but I do think that the hiring wasn’t in the best interest of SC with everything else ongoing, as I said if it was at any other time when the college wasn’t getting fresh allegations seemingly every few days I'd view it as a good hiring with a coach that has the potential to be a very good hiring

eagle eye

Frostie you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Lane Kiffin is a great appointment as head coach for USC, he has said its his dream job, he is a great fit because he knows the system there, and it will help the recruitment drive which would have been hit hard by the loss of Pete Carroll.

frostie500

eagle eye wrote: »

Frostie you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Lane Kiffin is a great appointment as head coach for USC, he has said its his dream job, he is a great fit because he knows the system there, and it will help the recruitment drive which would have been hit hard by the loss of Pete Carroll.

Fair enough if you think that way but when the NCAA sanctions for Reggie Bush and OJ Mayo and all the other violations that this school has done over the last ten years it wont be a molehill. When scholerships are lost, wins taken away and past championship seasons nullified(not beyond the realms of possilities because the NCAA has to come down hard otherwise every school will act like USC has for years) tell me if you still think that its a molehill to bring in a man at the heart of past transgressions and who the NCAA has already targetted as head coach with questionable recruiting practices.

Recruiting wouldnt be hurt by another hiring, this is SC. Players want to play they and yeah this class may lose a few guys but over a few years they would be fine. By bringing in a top line, proven college coach they wouldnt be hurt long term in recruiting or on the field of play

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

Kiffin was punished by the SEC for repeated violations. Admittedly most of these would be referred to as minor transgressions-referring to players by name in interviews prior to their signing, getting signed letters of intent faxed in from other recruits by fax machines other than their high schools, the Urban Meyer gaff where he didn’t know the rules of recruiting players on other college campuses. The NCAA has began investigation into the recruiting practices of the Vols during Kiffins tenure and his use of hostesses to influence players. This is probably as a result of the University of Washington (I think) and the rape case of recruits and hostesses a few years ago. I’m sure these things do happen with every coach but I feel that it’s foolish of the USC administrators to put themselves into a position whereby they might be seen as not trying to clear up their act. If this hiring was made at any other time I wouldn’t have an issue with it, but with everything going on at SC and the NCAA now I think they should have hired from outside of Pete Carolls coaching tree and brought in a head coach without the issues that Kiffin has had with recruiting and could keep a relatively low profile

The SEC sanctioned them for minor violations of league rules. The NCAA investigated but never went any further and never officially contacted Kiffin or Tennessee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4737332

I don’t like that Kiffin left UT so soon but I do understand leaving for your dream job etc.

The players were already on campus in the locker room and therefore they will need to obtain permission from the NCAA to transfer to another program. They won’t be punished by having to sit out a year like other transfers because they were early enrollers and haven’t started class but Ed Oregon was calling from this UT phone to steal players from his former program. This is one of the unwritten rules that coaches do adhere to. Players call their recruiter after he leaves a team and look to transfer, that’s fine and accepted but a coach looking to poach talent. Again it’s not illegal but it’s not generally accepted by the coaching fraternity.

Wrong. Only if they attend class do they have to get special permission. Two recruits took part in bowl preparation meaning they will have to get permission. A couple of others attended the college but have yet to set foot in class and they don't have to get any permission as they have not committed to the college or the athletics program by A not setting foot in class and B signing day is next month for Athletics. The others haven't gone near the college until signing day.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/andy_staples/01/13/kiffin.usc.tennessee/index.html

It is as you say a dog eat dog world and in all likelihood they will take some other teams head coach or head coach in waiting-Will Muschamp is the favourite so far. Kiffin will be able to bring in a top recruiting class consistently and recruiting in So Cal is a lot easier than in East Tennessee, it’s easy to understand why he left for SC but I do think that the hiring wasn’t in the best interest of SC with everything else ongoing, as I said if it was at any other time when the college wasn’t getting fresh allegations seemingly every few days I'd view it as a good hiring with a coach that has the potential to be a very good hiring

But do you not see others points? Obviously USC disagree with you and everyone who doesn't think it was a good idea. The simple fact the NCAA never charged Kiffin the SEC did for minor violations. So as far as USC are concerned they must feel he didn't do anything wrong and Im sure they feel he will do the job for them because why else would they hire him.

What it boils down to only time will tell but to shoot Kiffin down before he even starts the job is insane. He could turn out to be USCs best coach ever or he could fail miserably none of us know the answer to either and wont until he actually does something in SC.

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

Fair enough if you think that way but when the NCAA sanctions for Reggie Bush and OJ Mayo and all the other violations that this school has done over the last ten years it wont be a molehill. When scholerships are lost, wins taken away and past championship seasons nullified(not beyond the realms of possilities because the NCAA has to come down hard otherwise every school will act like USC has for years) tell me if you still think that its a molehill to bring in a man at the heart of past transgressions and who the NCAA has already targetted as head coach with questionable recruiting practices.

Recruiting wouldnt be hurt by another hiring, this is SC. Players want to play they and yeah this class may lose a few guys but over a few years they would be fine. By bringing in a top line, proven college coach they wouldnt be hurt long term in recruiting or on the field of play

What has previous mistakes by SC got to do with Kiffin though? You seem to be lumping them all into the same argument. What Kiffin did was never punished by the NCAA again for the 3rd time.

It seems your problem is both Kiffin and the USC Athletics dept. So in your eyes it seems both are wrong. Im now failing to see what you are saying. Because on one hand you are blaming USC and the other Kiffin. Is there any more point of any of us debating this with you? Considering this:

A: You don't Like Kiffin leaving the Vols

B: You are using the faults of USC atheltic dept in previous years and throwing the burdon on top of Kiffin

C: You have a problem with both USC and Kiffin.

Whether Kiffin or a squeaky clean coach goes in there USC wont escape the NCAA over Bush and Mays so how is that Kiffins fault?

frostie500

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Wrong. Only if they attend class do they have to get special permission. Two recruits took part in bowl preparation meaning they will have to get permission. A couple of others attended the college but have yet to set foot in class and they don't have to get any permission as they have not committed to the college or the athletics program by A not setting foot in class and B signing day is next month for Athletics. The others haven't gone near the college until signing day.

Fair enough I'm wrong on that one but I do stand by the statement in saying that by activily trying to get recruits to change from one college to another is not ethically correct. Its fine if the players decide by their own views to change schools after a coaching change but to activally recruit is wrong

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

But do you not see others points? Obviously USC disagree with you and everyone who doesn't think it was a good idea. The simple fact the NCAA never charged Kiffin the SEC did for minor violations. So as far as USC are concerned they must feel he didn't do anything wrong and Im sure they feel he will do the job for them because why else would they hire him.

What it boils down to only time will tell but to shoot Kiffin down before he even starts the job is insane. He could turn out to be USCs best coach ever or he could fail miserably none of us know the answer to either and wont until he actually does something in SC.

When did I say that Kiffin would fail? I dont think that I was out of line to say that a man with a poor head coaching record is not a top line coach. He has potential to be great but thats very different to actually being great. What has Kiffin achieved as a head coach? He finished 7-6 with the Vols last year and was 5-15 with the Raiders.
USC is one of the premier jobs in college football and they could have gone after pretty much any coach in the country. Right now how many schools can say that? USC, Florida, Texas, LSU and probably Oaklahoma. What's wrong in saying that they took a coach with potential instead of getting a proven winner?
As far as not seeing other points. I think over the time I've posted here most people would say that I'm pretty willing to admit when I'm wrong but that I do generally have pretty reasoned arguments on the sport. I do see how Kiffin getting the job could be good for SC but I do think that when all things are considered that its not a knockout hire that most people seem to think it is

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

A: You don't Like Kiffin leaving the Vols

Your'e right I dont like to see a coach leave a team that gave him a chance to rebuild his career after everything that went on at Oakland especially after only one year. Do you not see an issue of a coach leaving so soon? But as I said also I understand him leaving for his dream job and for one of the biggest jobs in the sport.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

B: You are using the faults of USC atheltic dept in previous years and throwing the burdon on top of Kiffin

Kiffin was a recruiting coordinator with SC during quite a long period of the issues that USC now finds themselves involved in so I wouldnt say that I'm placing the burden of USC's past transgressions on him, rather that by being part of the Pete Caroll era he should be looked upon as a participant of the issues that have occured at SC over the past ten years. Why should I not view it that he was involved with some of the issues involving SC when he was there?

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

C: You have a problem with both USC and Kiffin.

I dont have an issue with either of these, as I said it has the potential to be a great hire. I do however think that the timing of this hire is poor when you consider the NCAA investigation into violations is coming to a close and Kiffin was involved with many years of those issues as well as his own issues as a recruiter.
I think SC should have gone for someone fresh, a college like SC can as I said hire nearly anyone. It is a very attractive proposition to any coach why then do you hire a man that was involved in what will be a watershed case against the college with mass implications on the entire foundation of college sports.

tallaghtoutlaws

Im going to bow out on this discussion as I feel there is two sides and both opinions will never be swayed but I will leave you with this article. To me sums up Kiffin, the Vols and College Football:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/325437-as-crazy-as-it-seems-lane-kiffin-is-not-really-to-blame

All right, I have had my fun at Tennessee fans who who defended Lane Kiffin for behavior against other SEC schools that they would never tolerate if it was Nick Saban, Urban Meyer or someone else doing it to them.

Now time to get serious: what happened really wasn't Kiffin's fault. LOTS of other coaches would have done the same thing had they been put in Kiffin's position. It was not a failure of Kiffin to react in an entirely logical manner to the position that he was placed in, but a failure of Tennessee's administrators in putting Kiffin in that situation to begin with.

I say this because of the term "opportunist." It has a negative connotation to it, but the term really means someone what it says—someone who creates opportunities for himself and takes advantage of them. I don't think that we should be shocked by the fact that succeeding in big time sports inherently requires being an opportunist.

If a guy isn't an opportunist, he won't ever become a big time head coach because he will never even get the chance to become one in the first place. So, the USC opportunity came and Kiffin took it.

So, what's the problem? Even though Tennessee was indeed going to find an opportunist, their challenge was to find someone who would have realized that it was in his best long term career interests to remain with the Volunteers until he had actually accomplished something there.

Or they could have found someone for whom the University of Tennessee was the top of the mountain (rocky top as it were!) instead of a stepping stone. There were plenty of guys out there who fit one or both descriptions, and Tennessee spurned them.

Why? Because the college football culture today is all about the big splash. It is about bold hires that get people talking, puts the university in the headlines, and causes boosters and alumni to open up their wallets. That is the short term goal. The intermediate goal: a national title in four years or less.

When that is accomplished, everyone talks about what genius the athletics director or university president was for making the hire. When that happens, the president or AD, an opportunist himself or herself, moves onto a better job.

The last coach that any president or athletics director would want to hire right now is a Bo Schembechler, Tom Osborne or Jim Tressel: solid hires who gets it done year after year but in a boring, ho-hum fashion. It's not about the product anymore, it is about the presentation.

The person who best identified this new mindset was Barbara Hedges, former University of Washington president. She got rid of Jim Lambright (rustic, dumpy, aging, and overweight, a stereotypical coach for the south or midwest) despite him being a qualified enough fellow and longtime loyal Husky who effectively guided the program through NCAA sanctions that included scholarship reductions and hired Rick Neuheisel.

Why? Because Neuheisel better fit the elite, hip urban university image that Hedges wanted to project for the school, and because it would help fundraising and increase publicity. And of course, improving Washington's reputation and image as president would help Hedges attain her own goal, which was to become president of a more prestigious university down the line!

And don't blame Hedges. Colorado did the same in passing up several very qualified longterm assistants to hire Neuheisel in the first place. Colorado was trying to do their best to move away from the image that Bill McCartney had built on and off the field, and the laid back west coast guy in his early 30s with the exciting offense was the way to go!

Now this has spread from programs whose knowledge of and commitment to the college game were questionable in the first place to the entire game. It explains why the hires across the board keep getting younger and younger, and also this general movement towards not only offensive football, but gimmick schemes on offense at that.

In times past, the major programs wouldn't go with gimmick offense guys because of the feeling that down the road opponents would figure them out. Now, no one cares about whether what this coach is doing will be effective in 14 years because the emphasis is finding a guy who can win it all in four (or less).

So if the college scene is rewarding candidates barely in their 30s with no proven track records and fly by night schemes with big time jobs, how can we act surprised when these guys act like this? If colleges are making boom or bust hires instead of seeking to maintain "steady as she goes" success, why do we act surprised when things go bust?

How we forget that two of the best hires of the decade...Nick Saban at LSU and Pete Carroll at USC, were treated with contempt and derision. Neither guy was a hot property, considered a fast riser. Yet both Carroll and Saban were mature guys with years of experience, including years in the NFL and as head coaches, and you see the result.

Perhaps the third best recent hire, Mack Brown of Texas: more of the same...a guy who had years of experience at a head coach at Appalachian State, Tulane, and North Carolina.

And the worst part is that these people STILL haven't learned. Case in point: two main candidates for the Tennessee job are now Will Muschamp (age 38) and Kirby Smart (age 34). Instead of reacting to this Kiffin mess with the obvious idea that Tennessee needs stability, someone who will build a program in the short and immediate term, everyone says that the way to recover from the attempt to make a big splash that failed is to make another big splash to get everybody excited and hope that it succeeds. But are Smart and Muschamp any more qualified, any more MATURE than Kiffin? Nobody knows.

And what keeps Smart from going from Tennessee to his alma mater Georgia if that job opens up in a couple of years, which everyone knows is a possibility? Nothing, really. And what keeps Muschamp from accepting a pile of that Texas oil money to return to Austin if Mack Brown runs the table in 2010 or 2011 and steps down? Truthfully, not a thing.

Neither Muschamp or Smart have any ties to Tennessee that would keep them there, have more invested in other institutions, and both are at the stage of their careers where they can fail and recover. Lane Kiffin knows that if he flames out at USC, he can simply go take another coordinator job in college or the NFL and be right back in a few years just like Rick Neuheisel did, and Smart and Muschamp know the same.

That's why swooning over whoever the media says is the best candidate (and it usually is for the people who are only interested in writing stories that interest them) is the last thing that these presidents and ADs of major programs should be doing. They should be looking for a guy who is at the point in his career where he has to make that situation work, and also a guy who is thinking less about having fun trying something new and more into building something great.

As a general rule, that is something that comes with age. How many 35 year olds are taking jobs thinking that they will stay on them for the next 35 years?

This is not to say that Tennessee should have brought back David Cutcliffe, whose recruiting failures—and refusal to fix them—at Ole Miss were a real concern, as were the health problems that caused him to leave the Notre Dame coordinator job. (Duke, a job where he isn't expected to bring in top classes and has no pressure to win titles is perfect for a guy at the stage of his career.)

But promoting John Chavis? Why not? Hiring Charlie Strong? Again, why not? Getting Tommy Tuberville? Again, what's the problem? All of those guys had their issues, but the point is that had they been hired, they would still be Tennessee's coach right now, and more important would have been far more likely to succeed in the long term than a guy promising a quick fix with top recruiting classes and the west coast offense.

Tennessee's next hire should be a good, solid, strong, boring guy who will do nothing but effectively represent the program and win football games. My suggestion? Jim Grobe of Wake Forest. If the guy could take Wake Forest to the Orange Bowl, he can take a big time program to the national title game.

If he can develop his two- and three-star recruits into guys like Aaron Curry into the No. 4 overall NFL draft pick, he can develop the four- and five-star players that he would get at Tennessee. Grobe hasn't gotten a better job yet because he isn't flashy enough, and that is the best evidence that this college football hiring process is absurd, an absurdity that Tennessee contributed to.

Were Tennessee to make a sensible hire of a mature, qualified candidate, that would probably be the best thing to rein in this culture of setting Lane Kiffins and Rick Neuheisels to do exactly what guys placed in positions like that do, which is either fail or run off chasing the first thing that interests them.