Are Man U and Alex done?

mirwillbeback

Seeing as the other thread I started relating to Liverpool was such a success, and in light of recent results I wonder are the Manchester reds in a similiar position.

- Lost more games already this season than in the whole of last season
- Ronaldo money means they make a profit, but that is the only reason
- Out of FA Cup
- A lot of core players coming to the end of their careers, Scholes, Giggs ( or can he go on forever ), Neville
- Van Der Sar missing for various reasons, nearing retirement and the two replacements do not look up to much
- Ferguson's recent transfer dealing, Owen, Berbatov and Nani for example
- Vidic likely to leave in the Summer
- Nearest neighbours with a point to prove and money to do it
- A suspicion that the biggest attraction in Manchester is now the blue half

Discuss.

That_Guy

The answer is NO.

Headshot

trying to suck up to the pool fans ?

ntlbell

Yes.

/thread

gimmick

Door is wide open for Pep Guardiola to walk through if Fergie should decide to walk soon.

Liam O

ntlbell wrote: »

Yes.

/thread

+1

The FA cup is always the biggest tournament and failing to win that means that the season (and indeed Ferguson's career) is over.

SlickRic

i wish there was real substance to this thread.

unfortunately, there isn't.

Mitch Connor

as a serious reply, we won't know til September.

I do think United are in a bad way this season, but it is too early to be writing Fergie and United off completely.

I think this season is going down the crapper, and that the squad needs a serious clear out and tune up. That can't happen in january - but it HAS to happen in the summer imo. However, Fergie keeps banging on about lack of value, and that isn't going to get any better in a World Cup year.

We need to see what happens in the summer. If the squad isn't changed up and money isn't spent, then I really will worry for the short/medium term future of United. I already worry about the medium/long term future of the club with the Glazers involved.

Feeky Magee

Good one.

:rolleyes:

folan

not even a little! the top teams are all having it bad at the min, and some teams arent on form, but MU and Sir Alex have had problems before and they will rise to the occasion.

And MU are based in Trafford, not Manchester.

leninbenjamin

Obviously not, I'd imagine Fergy's done a wee bit more to earn him some job security than Rafa in recent years.

However, there are some fairly valid points there in relation to the finances. The proposed bond issue is a hot topic among certain circles. From what I've been reading a lot of analysts think it will work, temporarily at least, to alleviate some of the more immediate financial woes. However, there is general scepticism towards the entire business model this is based on, it's the strength of the brand that will save them. But therein lies a small bit of a conundrum, as the brand will surely need to be weakened in order to tackle the debt headlong...

Mr. Presentable

In the same situation as Liverpool? Not by a long chalk. But there is every chance that in two to three years they will be unless they can find a benefactor to sort out their financial situation with a handout. At the moment they are not servicing the debt sufficiently to reduce it - just moving it around to slow the rate of increase.

Mikeyt086

As a serious reply.

No. 1 point off the top is not "done" whatever way you look at it.

JPA

The answer is no.
However they are not as good as last year but could still win the league and league cup. I don't think they are good enough for the Champions league though.

cournioni

Who are Man U?

Iago

The United team (as it is now) has peaked over the last couple of years. This year has marked the beginning of the inevitable demise of that team, but thankfully it hasn’t been a drop off the cliff, more a gentle rolling down of the hill. This is a natural progression for every team, players leave, they get old or they lose their legs of their hunger. It’s how you replace those players that dictates where the club goes. In my opinion the extent of the downward trend for United will be largely dependent on two things, the financial situation of the club and the realisation of the potential of the younger players we have signed over the last few years.

The financial situation of the club is well documented at this stage and while I believe there will be money for players, I also believe it will be more and more important to find value with that money. It may mean only signing one major player a year, and offloading some of the decent squad players that we have. Ultimately I think Ferguson will have £25-£30m a year for player expenditure, spending it wisely will be key and he can’t afford some of the mistakes he’s made over the last 10 years.

The potential of the younger players is a tougher one to call. In defence there’s already the security of Evra on the left with Vidic and Ferdinand in the centre. When fully fit those are 3 of the best defenders in England and possibly Europe. There is a problem on the right hand side and while O’Shea, Brown or Neville can play there I’m far more excited about the potential of Rafael. I think he could develop into one of the best right-backs in the country and become a key part of the United defence for years to come. There is an issue in goal with VDS coming to the end of his tenure and neither of his understudys being particularly impressive. I think PIG could do a job but I’d be happier with a new first choice keeper.

On paper United should have one of the strongest midfields in the league with Nani, Anderson, Carrick and Hargreaves dictating games and being tutored along the way by Giggs & Scholes. Unfortunately the first 2 have been very disappointing to date, and Hargreaves has become a ghost rather than a player. Carrick’s limitations have been shown up a bit over the last 12 months, but I think that’s more down to his attitude and a lack of confidence in the players around him than anything else. We’ve also got Giggs, Obertan, Park, Scholes, Valencia, Fletcher & Gibson. Personally I think if we had a fully fit team the time has come to sell Park, Gibson and some of the other fringe players. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by Fletcher and especially Valencia this season.

Up front Rooney is only going to get better, remember he’s only 23, probably 4-5 years off his peak and Berbatov gets a lot of undue flack in my opinion. You see United fans crying out for creativity and the one thing that Berbs oozes is creativity. He has an incredible first touch and can pick a wide range of passes, sure he suffers from being a little lazy and his attitude seems questionable at times. However he’s a top player and if he gets the service and support he needs he’ll make a lot of people eat their words. As back-up we have Michael Owen, although it seems that Fergie sees him as an emergency rather than an option, and we also have Macheda and Welbeck. Welbeck has been pretty poor all season, which I think is combination of trying too hard and being played out of position, I’d like to see him go out on loan for the rest of the year to get some first team experience and maybe a little composure in front of goal, but there’s no doubting he has potential.

Overall I think United are well positioned to challenge for major honours over the next few years, although I think it’ll be tougher than previous years and we probably won’t win as much as we’re used to. Ferguson often says that United have to win at least 1 trophy a year, that’s the minimum expectation that comes with the club. I think we’ll achieve that or come very close to it each year for the foreseeable future, but I don’t think we’re in a position where we can take any game for granted anymore.

Overall our first 11 is a match for any team over 90 minutes, our squad is the envy of most teams in the league, but needs to be trimmed and seeded with quality over quantity and the sheer volume of fans/supporters/bandwagoners around the world means that United as a commercial entity should generate significant revenues for at least the next couple of years.

So are Ferguson and United done? Not yet, but they won’t have it as easy as they’re used to

redout

People really need to wake up.

The past 3 seasons have brought:

3 Premier league titles
2 Champions league Final appearances including 1 win
1 Champions league semi-final
1 FIFA Club World Cup
1 League Cup

and because of some poor results/performances this season primarily down to an injury crisis people are contemplating United and Fergie are done :rolleyes:

We are thereabouts in the league, Carling cup semi-finalists and into the last 16 of the Champions league yet we are supposedly done! Maybe if we were in a position akin to Liverpool I could understand this thread. But seriously ?

enviro

No Utd are not done. For God sake they are second in one of the top divisions in Europe after having their whole defence injured and playing midfielders in there as cover. They lost a cup game, my god disaster. These things happen, thats football and the beauty of it. Imo "being done" would be out of the top four in the league and not making the knockout stages of the Champions league. Do people honestly think that Utd could go under because of money problems? They hav huge assets. Income from games and other sources is healthy. Of course they have massive debts but Utd havnt even explored things like selling the name rights to Old Trafford ect . . .

kenon

I believe this dip is primarily down to injuries.

apoch632

folan wrote: »

not even a little! the top teams are all having it bad at the min, and some teams arent on form, but MU and Sir Alex have had problems before and they will rise to the occasion.

And MU are based in Trafford, not Manchester.

In the M postcode and about 3 miles from the city center. But keep peddling that massive city nonsense like anyone cares

SlickRic

enviro wrote: »

Imo "being done" would be out of the top four in the league and not making the knockout stages of the Champions league.

nice.

:rolleyes:

anyway...even then, considering what he's done for you, that would even be fickleness of the highest order. nobody is 'done' after half a season of mediocrity.

it's the disease of the modern football fan imo.

Harpy

this thread is funny...

fkt

I think we should just wait till he collapses. Shouldn't be too long now.

ShamoBuc

They are second because the teams around them are not exactly true to form, for various reasons -yet- this season. Had they been , the way Utd have been dropping points they wouldn't be in the top 4!

Mitch Connor

ShamoBuc wrote: »

They are second because the teams around them are not exactly true to form, for various reasons -yet- this season. Had they been , the way Utd have been dropping points they wouldn't be in the top 4!

But then you could argue that due to injuries, and the poor form of players like Berbatov that United are not playing to form, and had they been they would be well clear at this point.

SlickRic

ShamoBuc wrote: »

They are second because the teams around them are not exactly true to form, for various reasons -yet- this season. Had they been , the way Utd have been dropping points they wouldn't be in the top 4!

if my aunty had bollocks she'd be my uncle...

JPA

SlickRic wrote: »

if my aunty had bollocks she'd be my uncle...

No she'd be a hermaphrodite.

SlickRic

JPA wrote: »

No she'd be a hermaphrodite.

ok.

if my aunty had bollocks she'd be a hermaphrodite.

happier?

ShamoBuc

It's great to see this Thread going the same way as the Liverpool one.

kida

SlickRic wrote: »

ok.

if my aunty had bollocks she'd be a hermaphrodite.

happier?

Depends on what remained after the op, could be a trans€exual

JPA

SlickRic wrote: »

ok.

if my aunty had bollocks she'd be a hermaphrodite.

happier?

It's ok. Seems a bit irrelevant though. :P

PHB

I can paint a nice rosy picture where if everything comes together we'll be fine, indeed better than fine.

I'll preface this with I still think we're going to win the PL, and might even get far in the CL. However, I think there is a serious problem in the United side.

We don't have a good midfield. Fletcher/Hargreaves is the best part of it, but realistically only one can play. But at DM, we are in top shape. The AM side of CM though is a serious problem. Carrick has gone to ****, and he was only average/good before. He has utterly lost it. Anderson is very inconsistant and hasn't advanced as we'd have hoped. I still hold hopes for him, but I'm beginning to question it.

On the wings we're very poor. Valencia has been good, quite good. Solid RM. LW is a real problem. Park offers little to nothing anymore. Nani is unbelievably inconsistant. Obertan might be good, might not, too soon to tell.

Up front, we've got 2 very very good strikers, who don't fit too well with each other. Owen is bleh, offering about as much as Tevez did last year, which wasn't enough then and isnt enough now. Welbeck is playing RW, which is silly, and Macheda should go out on loan.

In defence, Rio, Brown, O'Shea and Vidic are aging. Vidic rumours won't go away. Evans looks a solid prospect. Rafael and Fabio look like they could make it, I think the latter is better than the former.

But overall, It's clear to me that in the next year or two, we need to do the following:

- Buy a new world class CB to replace Rio and Partner Evans
- Buy a world class winger. Even if Nani steps up, we still need another top class winger
- Buy a good striker who can play in the Saha/Eto style

And most importantly, above all else, replace Scholes/Giggs in the middle as a creative force,

- Buy a world class, like top of the range, attacking creative central midfielder. Iniesta and Xavi are like a billion times better than anything we have. Fabregas should be looked at if he'd join. Gourcouff might be a good bet.

We need to buy 4 world class players, all of which will cost close to 30 million probably. Fergie might get one of them on the bargain, probably the defender. That's still an investment of 100 million in the next year or two, and I don't think we've got the money.

Are we ****ed? Nah. We'll still get Top 4 fairly safely I'd say. But if Chelsea or Arsenal took a step forward in the summer, we'd be in trouble in the league. As for the CL, I think Barca are set to dominate it again personally, maybe Chelsea or Madrid. I can't see us winning it this year, which is the first time in 3 years I've thought that.

Oh one other thing, desperately need a new assistant manager, somebody who will challenge Fergie and offer something different.

Nalz

why

mrDerek

PHB wrote: »

Fabregas should be looked at if he'd join.
Gourcouff might be a good bet.

.

fab would never be at united well not while hes at arsenal anyway.

gourcouff i reckon would be a great buy.

NaiveMelodies

mrDerek wrote: »

fab would never be at united well not while hes at arsenal anyway.

gourcouff i reckon would be a great buy.

I agree. Fabregas would find it hard playing for both United and Arsenal.


While Uniteds performances this year have left a lot to be desired, coupled with the financial situation, It pleases me to see people are questioning whether United and Alex are done while we currently lie 2nd, one point off the lead, are in the semi final of the league cup(thanks to our reserve/youth) and cantered throught the group stages of the Champo League. Why? Because it shows how great a club United are and how people recognize that we just dont settle for second best.

folan

only1stevo wrote: »

I agree. Fabregas would find it hard playing for both United and Arsenal.


While Uniteds performances this year have left a lot to be desired, coupled with the financial situation, It pleases me to see people are questioning whether United and Alex are done while we currently lie 2nd, one point off the lead, are in the semi final of the league cup(thanks to our reserve/youth) and cantered throught the group stages of the Champo League. Why? Because it shows how great a club United are and how people recognize that we just dont settle for second best.

Aye, speaks volumes to how high Utd are held! And Sir Alex himself!

SilverFox261

United are far from done. But its fair to say this team is past its peak. Alot of players are been shown to be nothing more than squad players this year. There aren't enough of them stepping up showing the ability that is required to stamp their name on a first 11 place.

I think Ronaldo's contributions in previous years have covered up the mediocrity of United's recent midfield signings and developing talent. Of the current midfield options United have, only Fletcher and Valencia are deserving of first team spots at the moment. Anderson and Obertan could be potentially great players provided they are given a run of games to progress properly instead of being in and out of the team, but due to unconvincing performances they are unlikely to get that chance any time soon.

As for the rest of the midfield options, Park is only a squad player and can't be considered anything else. He is simply not good enough to be put on the wing and be expected to beat the defences of Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca etc. Carrick does not seem to be able to play a good game anymore. Giggs and Scholes are still playing great football on their day, but those days are starting to become rarer. And to expect them to come in and save the team everyweek is not realistic at their age. I also think that the expectation that on his return Hargreaves will save United's midfield is unrealistic.

As for Nani and Gibson, I think they have to be moved on. They just aren't good enough at the level they are expected to play at.

Solution? tbh i don't see any easy one. United at the very least need direct top quality replacements for Giggs and Scholes in the next 12-18 months, as surely both will retire at the end of next season. But the lack of value in the market according to Fergie indicates he has no intention of buying soon.

Smegball

I would actually start playing Gibson more, he offers a goal threat.

Saltour Sossiez

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Discuss.

Whoring yourself out to all sides. I am not impressed.

Headshot

Smegball wrote: »

I would actually start playing Gibson more, he offers a goal threat.

pretty much nothing else

hello_there_jim

this thread needs to be closed..its just an excuse to start an argument...trying to get the pool fans to say yes and utd fans to say no

The Muppet

Yeah they are both done, they are a whole point behind the league leaders, into the next round of the Cl and the semi final of the carling cup.

The only solution is to sack Fergie and sell Giggs

EI111

Smegball wrote: »

I would actually start playing Gibson more, he offers a goal threat.

Do you not get frustrated at how few shots he gets on target and his lack of any other threat?

doc_17

I suppose a lot of this thread is being debated in the Man U thread but if I were a Man U fan I would love to see investment in the squad this transfer window, not just restructuring the debt. Not much is needed in fairness, just a real top central midfielder and someone to help rooney, and maybe a decent physio.

But to answer the question, they are a long way from being done.

CHD

Yep, they are going downhill.

mrDerek

Smegball wrote: »

I would actually start playing Gibson more, he offers a goal threat.

I dont rate this guy highly if ya ask me.
I actually thought it was comical that he scores 3 very good goals and suddenly hes touted as the new paul scholes.
I just hope im wrong just like i was wrong when i thought fletcher was crap a few years ago haha

Smegball

Well Gibsons other attributes are often ignored, for instance his passing away to Wolfsburg was absolutely fantastic, this was when Scholes was beside him IIRC, he didn't simply pass it back or sideways to Scholes but time after time he played wonderful switching passes.

He also works hard, ok he isn't the all round player to the quality of Carrick for example, but Carrick has been so inconsistent and often poor recently I would give Gibson the chance.

Spiritoftheseventies

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Seeing as the other thread I started relating to Liverpool was such a success, and in light of recent results I wonder are the Manchester reds in a similiar position.

- Lost more games already this season than in the whole of last season
- Ronaldo money means they make a profit, but that is the only reason
- Out of FA Cup
- A lot of core players coming to the end of their careers, Scholes, Giggs ( or can he go on forever ), Neville
- Van Der Sar missing for various reasons, nearing retirement and the two replacements do not look up to much
- Ferguson's recent transfer dealing, Owen, Berbatov and Nani for example
- Vidic likely to leave in the Summer
- Nearest neighbours with a point to prove and money to do it
- A suspicion that the biggest attraction in Manchester is now the blue half

Discuss.

Was previous thread such a success. that is the question. IMO it was a complete embarrassment at the end to be honest. Really give it a rest.

Not finished but don't appear to be firing this season as they have been in previous years.

As with Liverpool it's the clubs finances that are the major worry.

mirwillbeback

bayviewclose wrote: »

Was previous thread such a success. that is the question. IMO it was a complete embarrassment at the end to be honest. Really give it a rest.

Previous thread was one of the nominations for thread of the year, so some obviously felt it was a success.

Funny thing I notice is bar about 5 posters across 4 pages, no one actually seems to address the points I made in the 1st post detailing where there are serious issues.

:rolleyes:

Headshot

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Previous thread was one of the nominations for thread of the year, so some obviously felt it was a success.

Funny thing I notice is bar about 5 posters across 4 pages, no one actually seems to address the points I made in the 1st post detailing where there are serious issues.

:rolleyes:

lol

you dont have a clue :pac: