Should all politicians wages be set at the minimum wage

WexfordMusings

So,

IBEC have been pushing for ages to have the minimum wage reduced so I think all politicians should have their wages matched to the minimum wage, I bet none of them would vote to lower the minimum wage then!

Sean

Guy:Incognito

Thats sure to get the cream of Irish politicians clambering to form the next government..........

It will be good to be run by a politcal party formed from people who's choice of job was working on a till in a supermarket or running the country.


Cue lots of Bullsheet along the lines of "better than what we have/mary harney is fat/Fianna Fail" etc etc.:rolleyes:

nesf

Just no, on so many levels.

EI111

nesf wrote: »

Just no, on so many levels.

one simple explanation is that they would be much more easily tempted to corruption.

It could possibly be one of the worst things to do and for much more reasons as nesf said, but the above is one simple reason

Zambia

WexfordMusings wrote: »

So,

IBEC have been pushing for ages to have the minimum wage reduced so I think all politicians should have their wages matched to the minimum wage, I bet none of them would vote to lower the minimum wage then!

Sean

I think he means if a politician gets 70€ p/h and they vote to decrease the minium wage by 10% then all the politicians then get 63€ p/h.

I for one would be happy to pay more than they are on now if they where actually trained to do the jobs matching the portfolio they get.

koHd

Most of them have very tough and demanding jobs which they've worked and studied very hard to get. They also get abuse from Joe public for any cock up they may make. Don't be silly. Of course they shouldn't be on the minimum wage.

nesf

EI111 wrote: »

one simple explanation is that they would be much more easily tempted to corruption.

It could possibly be one of the worst things to do and for much more reasons as nesf said, but the above is one simple reason

Yeah it's the simplest reason for it. Low paid staff are the easiest to bribe and get away with it because the amounts involved can be so small. It also makes the person far less likely to care about losing their job since it's so poorly paid.

Someone in a well paid job is much harder to bribe for the opposite reasons. It doesn't prevent bribery and corruption but it makes it less likely to happen and less widespread.

nesf

Zambia232 wrote: »

I think he means if a politician gets 70€ p/h and they vote to decrease the minium wage by 10% then all the politicians then get 63€ p/h.

I for one would be happy to pay more than they are on now if they where actually trained to do the jobs matching the portfolio they get.

Or remove the "requirement"* for Ministers to be politicians and have them selected out of the professional classes. Still has many problems associated with political patronage etc but it's hard to argue against the idea of having someone well versed professionally in an area managing it.


*Strictly non-TDs can be Ministers right now but it's almost never done so there is in effect a requirement for TDs to be nominated as Ministers.

oscarBravo

nesf wrote: »

Or remove the "requirement"* for Ministers to be politicians and have them selected out of the professional classes.

I'd go further, and argue for removing the possibility of Oireachtas members being ministers. There's pretty much no separation of powers between legislature and executive in this country.

nesf

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'd go further, and argue for removing the possibility of Oireachtas members being ministers. There's pretty much no separation of powers between legislature and executive in this country.

This would be my preferred option. Leave politicians to deal with local politics and leave the Governing to others.

Liam Byrne

nesf wrote: »

It also makes the person far less likely to care about losing their job since it's so poorly paid.

As distinct from our current setup where they'll get pensions and benefits, etc, CONCURRENTLY WITH THEIR PAY even if they only do a job for a few months ?

Surely that's as much of a disincentive to want to work hard to keep your job ?

nesf wrote: »

Someone in a well paid job is much harder to bribe for the opposite reasons. It doesn't prevent bribery and corruption but it makes it less likely to happen and less widespread.

Jeez, I'd definitely hate to see our shower if they were easier to bribe and influence (not all bribing is monetary).

I'd be happy if the condoning of ripping off the country was weeded out.

But as for anyone who reckons you need to pay more in order to get decent people, yes, the "look at the current shower" comment IS a valid answer; an inept and incompetent government, and an opposition that can't even get THEM out or hold them to task.

Pay the minimum wage and pay decent bonuses for things done really well.

hallelujajordan

Ridiculous suggestion . .

If the only guaranteed income in Dail Eireann is the minimum wage then . .

a) we will struggle to get candidates who will even run for election

b) none of our elected politicians will be educated to third level

The result will be an entirely ineffective parliament. . and before anyone tells me thats what we have anyway . . . the argument is not a valid justification for making changes that will make the situation even worse. .

If anything, we should be doing more to entice captains of industry into politics . .

97i9y3941

we outsourced everything else in this country,so why not!

SLUSK

nesf wrote: »

Just no, on so many levels.

How do you measure market value of politicians? Most politicians I would say have negative value and should have to pay us instead for every hour the "work" as politicians.

97i9y3941

they get paid less in germany and they have a bigger population..

bmaxi

nesf wrote: »

This would be my preferred option. Leave politicians to deal with local politics and leave the Governing to others.

Then who would select the Ministers, what would represent a quorum, from where would this quorum be drawn?
Just playing Devil's Advocate, this would be a bit of a hornets' nest to get into.

hallelujajordan

SLUSK wrote: »

How do you measure market value of politicians? Most politicians I would say have negative value and should have to pay us instead for every hour the "work" as politicians.

Your Dail Eireann full of people who are willing to pay for the privilege to sit there (i.e. empty) will be very effective at running the country . .

ei.sdraob

Fred83 wrote: »

they get paid less in germany and they have a bigger population..

lets outsource our Governing to Germany so

RiverWilde

What we really need to do is halve the number of TD's, get rid of the expenses and pay them a fixed (but decent) salary. Every penny they spend should be accountable right down to the paper clips at the office.

Riv

oscarBravo

bmaxi wrote: »

Then who would select the Ministers, what would represent a quorum, from where would this quorum be drawn?
Just playing Devil's Advocate, this would be a bit of a hornets' nest to get into.

It seems to work fine in the US.

The Taoiseach is elected by the Dáil. The Taoiseach appoints ministers with industry and/or academic qualifications, who then face a Dáil ratification process.

Sleepy

SLUSK wrote: »

How do you measure market value of politicians? Most politicians I would say have negative value and should have to pay us instead for every hour the "work" as politicians.

I actually believe I have a reasonable metric for this one. If the political class are doing their job correctly, average or median wage in the country should be at a reasonable level.

So: link TD's salary to a small multiplier of the avereage/median wage for the preceeding year.

In a year when the politicians have done a good job and the average member of Irish society is better off, they'll be better off. When they screw up, they share the pain. Obviously you won't attract the right calibre of person to politics at minimum wage (most likely the majority of those elected would be the verywealthy who could afford to work at that salary) so you apply a multiplier that takes the remuneration on offer to a reasonable level to reduce corruption and attract talent.

oscarBravo

Sleepy wrote: »

...link TD's salary to a small multiplier of the avereage/median wage for the preceeding year.

Isn't that a recipe for political policies that will encourage rampant wage inflation?

rasper

Political positions should be one of the highest paying in the land, however it should also be one of the most ruthless career wise meaning if you f**k up and squander taxpayers money then like every other business you are gone , this does not mean sidewas promoted to the Seanad or other lucrative chairs. It means left in the benchs and hopefully voted out the following election, obviously far more severe measures for corruption.
However the Irish voter has proved themselves time and time again to be too corrupt or immature to act with responsibilty

3DataModem

Sleepy wrote: »

So: link TD's salary to a small multiplier of the avereage/median wage for the preceeding year.

Jesus that's insane. The wage inflation in the lower grades in the public sector would be crazy...

Sleepy

oscarBravo wrote: »

Isn't that a recipe for political policies that will encourage rampant wage inflation?

What use would it be to them? Wage inflation will inevitably lead to general inflation.

oscarBravo

Sleepy wrote: »

What use would it be to them? Wage inflation will inevitably lead to general inflation.

With a multiplier, they will still come out in front.

SLUSK

Politicians should not be rewarded for destroying their countries and economies, therefore almost every politicians doesn't deserve one single cent in salary. Cut back on politics, why do we need politicians anyway?

Sleepy

oscarBravo wrote: »

With a multiplier, they will still come out in front.

Good point, so the formula would need to be more complex than (Median Salary) x Multiplier. I'm sure a better economic mind than mine can come up with a formula for doing this properly but it would certainly seem to me that median wage would be a good starting point for working out what to pay our politicians.

Or has anyone a better idea of how to pay politicians for performance? I'd contend that whatever the metric is, it would have to be based in some way on the average financial well-being of the citizens of the state.

bmaxi

oscarBravo wrote: »

It seems to work fine in the US.

The Taoiseach is elected by the Dáil. The Taoiseach appoints ministers with industry and/or academic qualifications, who then face a Dáil ratification process.

How would this differ from the system in use?
Presumably the Taoiseach would be elected by the largest party / coalition in the Dáil, he would then go on to appoint Ministers in the same way that he appoints members of committees, quangoes etc. and the process is ratified by the largest coalition in the Dáil.
More jobs for the boys, just with more power.

lugha

Sleepy wrote: »

Or has anyone a better idea of how to pay politicians for performance? I'd contend that whatever the metric is, it would have to be based in some way on the average financial well-being of the citizens of the state.

I propose a performance review system. Every few years, their employers (that's us) review their performance and decline to renew their contract if we are not satisfied. Oh wait .... :pac:
Everybody hates to hear this, especially when we're in a slump, but we do live in a democracy, we do have full control over who rules us, but we continue to make terrible selection decisions.
I say pay them well, but have full accountability for modest expenses.

Alcatel

lugha wrote: »

I propose a performance review system. Every few years, their employers (that's us) review their performance and decline to renew their contract if we are not satisfied. Oh wait .... :pac:
Everybody hates to hear this, especially when we're in a slump, but we do live in a democracy, we do have full control over who rules us, but we continue to make terrible selection decisions.
I say pay them well, but have full accountability for modest expenses.

We live in a republic, not a democracy. To be anal about it and to make a point - hands up who in the room thinks that if any other Irish political party were in power today, the problems would go away? The fatcat salaries at the top, for example. Keep any party in power for a few years and they'll all be at it.

In order to change this you need a complete change in how Ireland runs. But in a country where the majority of people would do the same (take the fat salaries) if they had the chance and the position, it's difficult to get a mass movement to make any real changes.

Overheal

SLUSK wrote: »

Politicians should not be rewarded for destroying their countries and economies, therefore almost every politicians doesn't deserve one single cent in salary. Cut back on politics, why do we need politicians anyway?

Go live in Somalia already if you dont want politicians or government.

Or you could just run for office yourself, since you seem to have it all figured out.

edit: and oh yeah,

Politicians should not be rewarded for destroying their countries and economies

Even though Politicians, like Winston Churchill, Ben Franklin, Dr. King, Charles De Gaulle, [Edit: and DeValera where are my manners] are the ones we can say are responsible effectively for creating these Countries and Economies that we all comfortably suckle off of.

oscarBravo

bmaxi wrote: »

How would this differ from the system in use?

The ministers would not be presenting themselves to individual constituencies for re-election, and could concentrate on doing their jobs to the best of their abilities, rather than trying to appeal to a populist base.

Presumably the Taoiseach would be elected by the largest party / coalition in the Dáil, he would then go on to appoint Ministers in the same way that he appoints members of committees, quangoes etc. and the process is ratified by the largest coalition in the Dáil.
More jobs for the boys, just with more power.

It's a fair point, which leads to the next reform I'd recommend: the abolition of the party whip system, which to all intents and purposes centres supreme power in the Taoiseach in a way that must make many dictators green with envy.

Kidchameleon

Stekelly wrote: »

Thats sure to get the cream of Irish politicians clambering to form the next government..........

It will be good to be run by a politcal party formed from people who's choice of job was working on a till in a supermarket or running the country.


Cue lots of Bullsheet along the lines of "better than what we have/mary harney is fat/Fianna Fail" etc etc.:rolleyes:

WTF??? We have the cream now do we??

Lockstep

nesf wrote: »

Yeah it's the simplest reason for it. Low paid staff are the easiest to bribe and get away with it because the amounts involved can be so small. It also makes the person far less likely to care about losing their job since it's so poorly paid.

Someone in a well paid job is much harder to bribe for the opposite reasons. It doesn't prevent bribery and corruption but it makes it less likely to happen and less widespread.

Also would presumably lead to independantly wealthy people being the only ones going into politics. Representative democracy right there.
Georgian politics FTW.

WexfordMusings

Lugha - There is already a performance related element - its called a general election.

But, yes there are a couple of points touched on, which could be summed up as:

Pay peanuts = get Monkeys
Low Pay = Corruption

But some would say we have corrupt monkeys in charge at the moment so what to do?

Sean

lugha

WexfordMusings wrote: »

Lugha - There is already a performance related element - its called a general election.

Yes Sean, that was pretty much the point I was making.

I personally don't think many of the current occupants of the Oireachtas are corrupt but if you and the rest of the electorate think they are, or that they are incompetent, then every single last one of them, including the Taoiseach, can be fired in the next GE, which will probably be this year.
Can but won't. I would expect the majority of the incumbents will be returned. It ultimately all comes back to the people.

nesf

WexfordMusings wrote: »

Lugha - There is already a performance related element - its called a general election.

But, yes there are a couple of points touched on, which could be summed up as:

Pay peanuts = get Monkeys
Low Pay = Corruption

But some would say we have corrupt monkeys in charge at the moment so what to do?

Sean

We have two things going for us against corruption: a very free press and an independent judiciary. It's not perfect and both really serve to punish corruption after the event rather than prevent it from happening but corruption really becomes endemic in a country where one of these "pillars" are missing. If the ruling party has tight control of either the judiciary or the press then a country will have very serious problems. In this country you can freely pick up mainstream newspapers that will lay into the Government over perceived failures and faults. This acts as a serious check against abuses of power, it's not perfect but it's crucially important to a well functioning democracy.

cm2000

I think that the situation is unlikely to mean that most of the parliament would be uneducated or any of that which has been mentioned. I think the far more likely scenario is that the only people who would run would be the super rich who don't need a salary. This is not desirable either.

Alcatel

nesf wrote: »

We have two things going for us against corruption: a very free press and an independent judiciary. It's not perfect and both really serve to punish corruption after the event rather than prevent it from happening but corruption really becomes endemic in a country where one of these "pillars" are missing. If the ruling party has tight control of either the judiciary or the press then a country will have very serious problems. In this country you can freely pick up mainstream newspapers that will lay into the Government over perceived failures and faults. This acts as a serious check against abuses of power, it's not perfect but it's crucially important to a well functioning democracy.

Ireland has been likened to a first world country with third world politics. I don't think our press and judiciary, whilst free, do a particularly good job. And I think we have a lot of corruption of different levels, if you consider 'jobs for the boys' as a form of, albeit not illegal but certainly immoral, corruption. Ireland is all about who you know, not what you know, in business, in politics, and especially where the two meet.

egan007

I could be CEO of a company and earn 250K - or 30K as taoiseach

Yes we would really get the cream of the crop with this idea.

Sleepy

Or we could simply offer a salary somewhere in the middle which reflects the fact that most people running for election aren't doing so out of personal financial interest.

I think most people accept that paying politicians well is a good means of avoiding corruption (or at least making corruption so expensive that the sums involved should be easily noticed by investigators).

However, I'm not so sure I buy the argument that high salaries attract people to the role. Nor, am I certain that I want someone running for election purely for the shot at big money.

Liam Byrne

nesf wrote: »

We have two things going for us against corruption: a very free press and an independent judiciary.

In this country you can freely pick up mainstream newspapers that will lay into the Government over perceived failures and faults. This acts as a serious check against abuses of power, it's not perfect but it's crucially important to a well functioning democracy.

There was a third requirement to get this to work properly.....the Freedom of Information Act.

But they're removed that (you can get summarised / edited info if you pay a fortune, and the TD in question gets an input); add in the increased the libel and defamation stuff and you've pretty much tied one hand of the newspapers behind their backs.

I'm not condoning the bull that the tabloids get up to, accusing all and sundry of everything, and reporting gossip as facts, but the contempt for the FoI Act is blatantly obvious......and one has to wonder why.

bmaxi

WexfordMusings wrote: »

Lugha - There is already a performance related element - its called a general election.

/QUOTE]

Let's see, Haughey, Burke, Lawlor, Flynn, Fahy, Lowry etc. etc. etc. all faced the electorate with questions to answer.
You see, the Irish electorate will not tolerate nasty people besmirching the name of "our lads".

WexfordMusings

Paying higher wages does not always mean getting better staff, look at all of those high-paid bankers. They didnt do a very good job and they were paid millions...

jaarius

WexfordMusings wrote: »

So,

IBEC have been pushing for ages to have the minimum wage reduced so I think all politicians should have their wages matched to the minimum wage, I bet none of them would vote to lower the minimum wage then!

Sean

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

j