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Play to win?
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10-01-2010 11:00pm#1In all honesty I don't have much respect for Guile players (No offence Doom
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Tell you what, why don't you pick Guile and I'll pick Ryu at the next ranbat we meet in and I'll see if you get a healthy new respect
Guile players play in that style in general because it is an effective way to win.0
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Dreddybajs wrote: »iaf Doom you do ascribe to the Guile stereotype that he's talking about :pac: (that said I don't disrespect or have any problem with it, but you do have quite a one-dimensional playstyle)
I'll do whatever will win me the match. Playing with Guile you have to have a game plan going in. I play differently when a Ryu or a Sagat traps me with endless hadokens. That's the way the game works 0 -
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considering how much stick terry gets for picking sagat, doom you should be able to take a little 'your a boring guile player' stick on the chin
Personally since I played as guile a bit myself I understand him and generally enjoy fighting guiles.
Actually I've found almost every guile I've played to be quite different from each other.
When I played guile I loved to do the auld medium punch into flash as much as possible. If I landed a jump in I'd be trying jumping hk into c.mp into flash kick. But on the d-pad my thumb would start to annoy me after while as I'd be squeezing down a charge all the time with guile, so I didn't play him much.
Some guiles with any jab they land on you it'll turn into another jab into medium punch and flashkick/boom and these guys will actually be trying to cross me over all the time.
The most annoying guile I played however, was this guy who'd jump in and land 4x lk's on me, then run away and turtle the rest of the match.
If I got him, he'd just repeat the whole thing, another 4x lk's and run away. I was more annoyed that I wasn't fast enough on stick to deal with something I'd have no issue blocking with on a pad however, as thats all the guy did thus I saw it coming from a mile away. But from his perspective, it was working so he had no need to change.
Never the less it was so infuriating losing to 4 feckin light kicks that I lost a lot of patience, thus did even worse in the match then I would have say.. if the guy was beating me with something fancy. As then I'd just be impressed and not frustrated.
Guile wants you to be frustrated.
I enjoy guile and I'll pick him up again when I get my octo.0 -
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Doctor DooM wrote: »I'll do whatever will win me the match. Playing with Guile you have to have a game plan going in. I play differently when a Ryu or a Sagat traps me with endless hadokens. That's the way the game works
I don't disagree with that at all (nor do I think it's different for any other character) (except rufus)0 -
Join Date:Posts: 52067
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Cunny-Funt wrote: »considering how much stick terry gets for picking sagat, doom you should be able to take a little 'your a boring guile player' stick on the chin
Chances are if you pick out a random post by azza there'll be a Guile insult. I'm fine with that. 0 -
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Oh dont worrry, as I said later on in my above post, I'm completely okay with fighting people who spam. I've been playing long enough to recognise it as a valid fighting style: if it's in the game, by all means use it. I just rarely do so.
Without a doubt I agree with this XD I lose fairly consistantly whenever I head down the tourneys in the Dublin gaming cafe!
LOL. Nothing to be ashamed of in that, I lose all the time too
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in the Lan party, i got knocked out cause some one kept abusing the rufus kick, was a bit annoying and came across as cheap but its completely my fault for not being able to block those on reaction.
So cheap may be cheap [flow chart ken] but if you can win against it then up your game.
But play to win maybe in competitions, play to learn otherwise. Unless youre doom and have a seeding [sap
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Ry's just furious cause he keeps losing, specially to guiles [even G3's], its hilarious watching him go crazy and tearing his hair out. But, man, just hadouken that sonic boom back. Silly boy. Up your game.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 52067
I usually find it easy to beat people that use spammy tactics. They can catch you by surprise but you can adjust easily. Playing my useless mates this happens a lot when you are caught off gaurd by what can only be called idiotic and suicidal behaviour in any other match. However the lag from online play usually favours a lot of spammy behaviour. I'm guessing a lot of players find spammy tactics that work and stick with them. However offline the same tactics probably wouldn't work.
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in the Lan party, i got knocked out cause some one kept abusing the rufus kick, was a bit annoying and came across as cheap but its completely my fault for not being able to block those on reaction.
So cheap may be cheap [flow chart ken] but if you can win against it then up your game.
But play to win maybe in competitions, play to learn otherwise. Unless youre doom and have a seeding [sap]
Ry's just furious cause he keeps losing, specially to guiles [even G3's], its hilarious watching him go crazy and tearing his hair out. But, man, just hadouken that sonic boom back. Silly boy. Up your game.
Bigtime. RYU vs GUILE in a fireball game........ only one winner there, and its not guile.0 -
You haven't been to a tourny yet have you?! I remember you came to casuals once (you play rose right)? You should come along more.
Back on topic, playing to win. Obviously with sagat, you play to win by sitting back and firing tiger shots all day. It works on a lot of players (G3, G2 to a certain extent) but I don't tend to do it that much at ranbats because i know it wont work (or at least it shouldn't!). How many times have you heard kiki say "needs more tiger shots" in my videos :P
1) Yes!!! A Rose player! You so have to come, and preferably, beat Azza.
2) animaX I think ultimately you are making the right decision. tiger spam should be an option, not your whole game, as everyone and their ma will be well practiced at fighting it.0 -
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You haven't been to a tourny yet have you?! I remember you came to casuals once (you play rose right)? You should come along more.
Back on topic, playing to win. Obviously with sagat, you play to win by sitting back and firing tiger shots all day. It works on a lot of players (G3, G2 to a certain extent) but I don't tend to do it that much at ranbats because i know it wont work (or at least it shouldn't!). How many times have you heard kiki say "needs more tiger shots" in my videos :P
Absolutley..... Watching you play (especially against Guile) I am always thinking - "man tiger the sh1t out of it, he wont be able to deal with it." The thing to do (FTW) is to do it when necessary. I know, from fighting Doom constantly, that if I just fireball all day, he will get in around it and punish me (especially since he now has his jumping three hard hit combo down) but it is a useful tool if you need to push him back or pin him in a corner. Vary it up, but let me say this..... If I came up against even a half decent Gief, or some other non fireball character, I would be laying the fireballs into them.
Play to win...... or in my case, try to play to win 0 -
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Dreddybajs wrote: »
this is me irl
Doom has long been telling me to fight you.... He reckons you'd have me. From watching your match ups against him, I can see why
We should have a casual on Sat...
Try not to embarrass me too much.
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Dreddybajs wrote: »Sounds good man, thought I'd played you before actually, must've been someone else. Who do you play?
I play Ryu. Don't think we have played. I have seen you and Doom play live at the last tourney - I wasn't good enough to get out of the group
I need to train harder =p0 -
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Doctor DooM wrote: »Tell you what, why don't you pick Guile and I'll pick Ryu at the next ranbat we meet in and I'll see if you get a healthy new respect
Guile players play in that style in general because it is an effective way to win.
Haha! Well I know for a fact you've practiced your Ryu and tbh I've never willingly picked Guile at a single character select so odds are you'd take it.
That said. I fully understand it's an effective strategy and I wouldn't say "don't use it because it's lame". All I was saying is it bores the crap out of me and it seriously detracts from my enjoyment of the game as a whole when I'm faced with it because whatever the outcome, win or lose the fight has always sucked!Ry's just furious cause he keeps losing, specially to guiles [even G3's], its hilarious watching him go crazy and tearing his hair out. But, man, just hadouken that sonic boom back. Silly boy. Up your game.
I'll be honest. This was the case for a long time until I figured out how to get around it. This is what has lead me to feel the way I do on the topic but as a whole wheather I win or lose now having learnt how to play around it I still don't enjoy the matches one bit cuz they are in all honest, crap fights and not entertaining at all which is the main reason I play for fun and entertainment.
P.S. Farz you're still bitter about me bursting your bubble in the last thread over you finding someone else named Farzad online so enough pap from you thanksBigtime. RYU vs GUILE in a fireball game........ only one winner there, and its not guile.
So on average how often do you win VS Doom? Being that you're a Ryu player. 0 -
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So on average how often do you win VS Doom? Being that you're a Ryu player.
Last night it was 10-8 to him. I had days where I can't touch him and others where I beat him well. It depends.... Is he a better player? Without doubt, but thats not really the issue. If ou can beat someone once, then you always have a good chance of beating them.0 -
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Last night it was 10-8 to him. I had days where I can't touch him and others where I beat him well. It depends.... Is he a better player? Without doubt, but thats not really the issue. If ou can beat someone once, then you always have a good chance of beating them.
That's good I remember when you'd complain about being completely unable to touch him so I'd say it's pretty satisfying knowing you've come on from that. 0 -
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Btw regarding the thread title and the pic of David Sirlin posted there by dreddy I think his infamous article should be posted in case there's people here who've not read it : (Ry, Sairus)
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
@ rope
I watched your vid btw, to me it seemed you had the guy down. Seemed his style was all about attacking with some lk's then backing off and punishing hard if you made a mistake. Although maybe he was fucking up his links looking at how some of his c.lks went into standing lks. He kinda looks like what I'd look like when I **** up on stick. He's constantly jumping over you to try and break your charge and trying to build frustration out of you so you mess up and then he'll punish hard.
However you don't take the bate and stuff him quite a lot in that match and imo I reckon he was more frustrated then you in the end LOL @ the cheeky attempt to land that ultra on you after a whiffed srk, he was totally banking on your frustration but in that match you were the more patient player.
I could see myself falling for his traps if I was on stick for sure. I need to be more like sim, meditate, then destroy them 0 -
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Cunny-Funt wrote: »Btw regarding the thread title and the pic of David Sirlin posted there by dreddy I think his infamous article should be posted in case there's people here who've not read it : (Ry, Sairus)
Too long, not bothered 0 -
Cunny-Funt wrote: »Btw regarding the thread title and the pic of David Sirlin posted there by dreddy I think his infamous article should be posted in case there's people here who've not read it : (Ry, Sairus)
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
Read it before, but that was back before I'd gotten into SFIV in any real way and it's completely applicable to me now
A lot of the ways that I play SFIV are governed by an invisible set of rules I've created. I don't like throwing more than twice in a row even if I can, if someone keeps on using unsafe jump ins I won't always shoryuken them continually.
This holds true when I'm playing, if I get 2 throws in a row, I'll usually make some joke about it to take away from the fact that I felt it was a cheap tactic. If I win on chip damage I do the same thing, apologize for it. When I get message over GFWL telling me "I'm cheap" or constantly "shooting bullets", even if I won that match I'll think I do need to train so I can win by other methods that aren't "cheap". I start feeling uncomfortable if I keep using TP to break my opponents charge, even if it's working and I'm winning I'll stop doing it.
Then there's my character choice. I like Akuma because I like the character, his look, his moveset and his range of options. Can I fully utilize all of them? No. Am I a safe enough player to not let his low health and stamina be an issue? No.
If I was playing to win I'd pick someone closer to my abilities. Someone slower, with better health, easier combos that do more damage... etc. If I was playing to win I'd use whatever tactics work and keep using them until they didn't work.
I guess when I think about it, the origin of this is from playing games with my friends when I was younger. I learned quickly that if I won a few games in a row my friends wouldn't want to play any more. I guess I reasoned that I wanted to play the game more than I wanted to win at the game so I would purposefully throw every 3rd or 4th match to keep my friends from quitting so they would feel like they where winning also. If they said a move was "cheap" or "unfair" I'd try to play them without using it to stop them from quitting if I persisted in using it.
It is like a mental block, I tell myself to train and learn more moves to stop using the cheap ones. But as soon as I learn a new move and it proves consistently effective I tell myself it must be cheap so handicap myself from using it more than once or twice in a match. In fact, the moves I try to use are probably the most unsafe and least rewarding but I feel if I win from using them it would be justified, and even if I lose the person I'm playing won't quit since they are winning.0 -
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Too long, not bothered
Really? Its about you Ryan Nah but honestly its one of the most talked about and referenced articles in the sf community and I think you'd like it.
The terms scub mentality and play to win come up a lot in the general community and this article basically explains the thinking.
It helped my thinking with regards to elements of the game and removed my own bitterness to some things. This was early on when I 1st started playing 3s.
I think you might find it enlightening anyway man, or you might hate it but give it a try at least. You should find it an interesting read either way.L31mr0d:
the origin of this is from playing games with my friends when I was younger. I learned quickly that if I won a few games in a row my friends wouldn't want to play any more. I guess I reasoned that I wanted to play the game more than I wanted to win at the game so I would purposefully throw every 3rd or 4th match to keep my friends from quitting so they would feel like they where winning also. If they said a move was "cheap" or "unfair" I'd try to play them without using it to stop them from quitting if I persisted in using it.
I have a similar issue. I find I can't play at my best when I'm playing with people in 'real life' as I feel bad if I start beating them. Stemming from years of my mates refusing to play games with me as I'd beat them in it, so I automatically lower my game a bit, for fear of putting people off the game. I've a few friends who enjoy Street Fighter but won't go near it now cause I'm good at it.
I find I play best when facing someone online actually just cause I feel I can destroy the guy without having to worry as he's just a character on my screen and not someone sitting beside me. Playing competitively against people in real life is actually very very new for me. lol
With regard to what you said about playing to win, you'd pick a different character, I think that's taking it a bit far. I look at playing to win just as a way of getting me to think more positively when I encounter something I may think of as being 'cheap' I'll think:
"there's some way to beat this, I just have to find out how"
rather than "Feckin bullshit cheap ass bla bla bla". But I wont take it as far as playing a character I don't enjoy playing as, just to 'win'.0 -
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Cunny-Funt wrote: »Really? Its about you Ryan Nah but honestly its one of the most talked about and referenced articles in the sf community and I think you'd like it.
The terms scub mentality and play to win come up a lot in the general community and this article basically explains the thinking.
It helped my thinking with regards to elements of the game and removed my own bitterness to some things. This was early on when I 1st started playing 3s.
I think you might find it enlightening anyway man, or you might hate it but give it a try at least. You should find it an interesting read either way.
Yeah I hear "scrub" misused so much.
A scrub is not a poor player. It simply doesn't mean that.
An awful player who is willing to learn is not a scrub.
An awesome player who has made up rules about what is cheap and how his opponents play IS a scrub.
I like to think of scrubbishness as anytime you get pissed off with your opponent. You should simply consider how you defeat what they are currently doing. This is the way you get better. You can play a hundred hours and if you're playing by your own self decided rules you may never get better.
We're all guilty of being scrubby sometimes.
(Note- this doesn't count for simple broken game mechanics, distracting the other player, etc.)0 -
Ry's never played SF2 or has ever seen SFAlpha [omg, whos this guy character, OMGZ], so dont waste your time helping a lost cause
This is a good example of why your post count is rearing on 5000.
"Quantity over quality" is obviously your ethos when it comes to using boards.
Essentially, you're a boards "scrub" if the quality of your post is anything to go by vs the Quantity. 0 -
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I actually did read the article Conor and I was just pulling your leg
I appreciate you calling me a scrub or bringing light to it but tbh Doom asked the question based on my appreciation of that "Dagger_G" Guile player and the fact that usually I don't like matches against Guiles and I answered him.
I think you've the wrong idea how I feel about it. I fully acknowledge the validity of using any tactic to win. That's fine but my point is I don't have to like it!? I'm not saying it's cheap or broken, I'm just saying I personally don't enjoy having to deal with it from so many Guile players online win or lose.
As Doom said we're all guilty of being scrubby and by that I think he means we all get frustrated being caught out by a repeated tactic or set play that's difficult to navigate our gameplay around, correct me if I'm wrong there Brian.
Also in an effort to draw some kind of valid point from Farz's trolling. I am new to Fighting games so I would admit I am definitely still wrapped up in the wrong "Scrub" mentality. The fact I'm a really bad loser is also a catalyst that helps me fall into it. I do acknowledge it though and seek to mend it 0 -
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Man this article is sounding more and more impressive with every page I'm skimming through here XD Will have to give it a gawk after this post.
And to answer a question from way back, I've only been to one of the tourneys and a couple of the casuals. Said tourney was one of the first ones - only the core 16 characters where chooseable (Not sure if it's still like like, but eh).
If there's a casual or somesuch on this Saturday I might take a waltz down.
Yar, I can totally understand that, the brother I mentioned that I honed my no-more-than-2-moves-in-a-row game on has long ago fallen by the wayside as I've gotten much better than him. It makes playing him and most of my other friends very awkward as I have to throw matches to keep it interesting.I have a similar issue. I find I can't play at my best when I'm playing with people in 'real life' as I feel bad if I start beating them. Stemming from years of my mates refusing to play games with me as I'd beat them in it, so I automatically lower my game a bit, for fear of putting people off the game. I've a few friends who enjoy Street Fighter but won't go near it now cause I'm good at it.
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Ryan no no I wasn't calling you a scrub at all. The 'its about you' comment was just to entice you into reading it. My reasoning for wanting you to read it stems from how many of our discussions on things that annoy you about the game reminded me of myself when I started. Reading that article early on helped me alter how I perceived things in the game.
The other reason being that article helps to understand the general SF communities attitude to a lot of things.
Basically if your into SF you should know about it as its referenced all the time.I actually did read the article Conor and I was just pulling your leg
Right, I'm gonna get my gen to low lk you to oblivion next time so -_-
hehe :P0 -
As Doom said we're all guilty of being scrubby and by that I think he means we all get frustrated being caught out by a repeated tactic or set play that's difficult to navigate our gameplay around, correct me if I'm wrong there Brian.
Exactly right.
God, you're going to hate when we do eventually fight 0 -
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Also in an effort to draw some kind of valid point from Farz's trolling. I am new to Fighting games so I would admit I am definitely still wrapped up in the wrong "Scrub" mentality. The fact I'm a really bad loser is also a catalyst that helps me fall into it. I do acknowledge it though and seek to mend it
my point if obvious, guile is a prime street fighter character, hes been there from the start [if one considers sf2 the start], calling a well established character, broken[cheap], specially on the 4th series [with several previous editions and reincarnations] makes no sense.So by this logic half of Top Japanese players suck? xD
jk
i do hope you are joking, go watch some sf2/ssf2/t compeition videos. Plus its nothing to do with Rys skill level, read above.0 -
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