Integrated Headsets Explained

kona

http://chrisking.com/files/pdfs/Int20HeadsetsExplained.pdf


Found this Excellent little article, after having a spate of these coming back in with issues.
Definatley not the option if you abuse or find you constantley destroy bikes.

redmaxi

kona wrote: »

http://chrisking.com/files/pdfs/Int20HeadsetsExplained.pdf


Found this Excellent little article, after having a spate of these coming back in with issues.
Definatley not the option if you abuse or find you constantley destroy bikes.

Interesting article alright, my Pinarello Galileo has an integrated headset which went a few months ago. I had to learn the hard way. It is a very bad design. The tolerances between frame and bearing are fine - no issue there yet after six years. But all the load is placed axially on a bearing designed to be loaded laterally.
The original bearings have a C2 rating and without going into too much detail this is just a bearing internal clearance measure usually used for high speed applications (above 7000 RPM I think, without checking) that get hot and need to expand.
Now how fast can you turn the handlebars ?. The point is a lot these fancy 'top of the range' Italian bikes are way over engineered and not in a good way.

I've read tat article before and taken it with a pinch of salt. In all fairness a company that makes expensive press in headsets are hardly going to write an article saying that the type they don't make are good. I also read somewhere that the reason they don't make them is that the patent holder (cane creek I think) hasn't granted them licence to, despite the claims in that article that their reluctance to make them is based on some sort of moral outrage at the evils of integrated headsets.

Also another thing I really don't get about the anti integrated headset arguments I have heard is this whole "frame manafacturers are just making them this way so that they'll wear out and you'll have to buy a new frame" spiel. If a frame let you down in that fashion I don't imagine that you'd be too quick to buy from the same manafacturer again, and the manafacturers surely know this, therefore I don't imagine they would be making integrated headet frames unless they were confident they work.

redmaxi

redmaxi wrote: »

above 7000 RPM I think.

That's some mad barspinzz right there.

uberwolf

summary

headset >= internal > integrated

or is internal not quite the same standard as headset?

redmaxi

redmaxi wrote: »

The original bearings have a C2 rating and without going into too much detail this is just a bearing internal clearance measure usually used for high speed applications (above 7000 RPM I think, without checking) that get hot and need to expand.

Sorry, that's wrong. I'm on opposites day I think. C2 is tighter internal clearance for vibration low heat applications. It's still over engineered though. (the price of em !)

lescol

The article was written in March 2002, searching google I can't find any reference to head tube failure in bikes with integrated headsets, by now the internet would be crackling with failure stories and bike manufacturers would be using a different system. In fairness, I think it wise to maintain the bike including any headset play, but I'll carry on with my integrated Cane Creek and not worry about it.

kona

Well, the main Problem that I see, is that they just are not in anyways capable of going any length of time without maintenance and care, which isnt really something that you want when it can potentially scrap your frame.

They are fine if you know how to and maintain your bike like a baby, but the fact is people dont do this. Fitting them on sub 1K bikes IMO is ****ing nuts because inevitably there is people who just do not get their bike looked at until something breaks, In this case that could mean a e600 bill for a new frame, plus another 150-200 in labour in building up the frame and prepping it.

Expensive mistakes.

AFAIK chris king actually do make integrated headsets? at least thats what they said in the article, and even accepted its flaws.

Gasco

Was looking into this a while ago - I have a 2005 Litespeed Vortex (with an integrated headset) which developed a nasty crack in the HT. Was sent back under warrenty and the HT was replaced, but they replaced it with a standard headtube. It appears that Litespeed stopped using integrated headsets from 2006, though I could find no official reason for this change.

blorg

Most of my bikes have had integrated headsets and have had no problems. Almost every bike sold today uses an integrated headset and millions upon millions have been sold over the last decade. As Lescol says, it is a non-issue.

The only problem I ever had with a headset was with a traditional one, needed replacement. I don't take this as representative of anything by the way, it is a sample of one.

My best bike incidentally has a Chris King but that I believe is as Litespeed had specific problems designing an integrated titanium headtube and went back to traditional. My other ti bike is also traditional.

Chris King DON'T make integrated headsets, they specifically say in that article they refuse to as they couldn't bring themselves to put the King name on such a "faulty" design... :rolleyes:

kona

Gasco wrote: »

Was looking into this a while ago - I have a 2005 Litespeed Vortex (with an integrated headset) which developed a nasty crack in the HT. Was sent back under warrenty and the HT was replaced, but they replaced it with a standard headtube. It appears that Litespeed stopped using integrated headsets from 2006, though I could find no official reason for this change.

they replaced the headtube???!!!

Never heard of that before!

kona

uberwolf wrote: »

summary

headset >= internal > integrated

or is internal not quite the same standard as headset?

supposedly any headset design that places the bearings inside the headtube , makes the frame weaker.

Id be of the same opinion as yourself.

kona

blorg wrote: »

Most of my bikes have had integrated headsets and have had no problems. Almost every bike sold today uses an integrated headset and millions upon millions have been sold over the last decade. As Lescol says, it is a non-issue.:

Of my 6 bikes only a carrera and GT have Internal headsets, The other 4 Konas have Standard Cups outside the frame. none are integrated.
Its really only racers that use Integrated and Internal. The only advantage that I see is that you can use a Bigger beaing which is sealed, you can also decide what contact angle you want on the bearing.

blorg wrote: »

My best bike incidentally has a Chris King but that I believe is as Litespeed had specific problems designing an integrated titanium headtube and went back to traditional. My other ti bike is also traditional.

The article specifically mentions litespeed bikes. Something to do with the External Headsets not being as heavy.

blorg wrote: »

Chris King DON'T make integrated headsets, they specifically say in that article they refuse to as they couldn't bring themselves to put the King name on such a "faulty" design... :rolleyes:

You are right, they make a Internal one, although this still has the design flaws they are on about, it doesnt affect the frame when it fails or is ridden loose.

Single Malt

blorg wrote: »

Chris King DON'T make integrated headsets, they specifically say in that article they refuse to as they couldn't bring themselves to put the King name on such a "faulty" design... :rolleyes:

They do however offer 10 year warranty on their headsets and bearings. That is unheard of from the integrated system, as after 10 years of use the headtube may well be worn on the frame. Traditional headsets have a longer lifetime in my experience.

Edit: maybe they can't offer their warranty on an integrated system, as there are factors out of Chris Kings control at work, ie the headtube. The mechanical advantage is fully on the traditional headsets side, however most people don't own frames long enough to do the headtube damage mentioned in the article

blorg

Single Malt wrote: »

They do however offer 10 year warranty on their headsets and bearings. That is unheard of from the integrated system, as after 10 years of use the headtube may well be worn on the frame. Traditional headsets have a longer lifetime in my experience.

Several manufacturers using an integrated headset design offer lifetime warranties on their frames though which are a lot more expensive to replace than a headset! I don't think they would do this if they didn't have confidence in the design.

Indeed with BB30 you press BB bearings directly into the bottom bracket shell and the forces going through that are a lot higher.

Chris King headsets are overpriced enough that they can afford to offer a 10 year warranty. Nice stuff and I have one myself on my best bike but overpriced. I think the 10 year warranty is more to do with King than the respective systems, it's not like other headset manufacturers offer 10 years on their traditional headsets but less on their integrated ones.

kona

Em, what Manufacturers offer a Lifetime guarantee on their Frames?


If you ride a Integrated Headset loose your going to destroy your bike, Unfortunatley Alot of people do ride their bikes with loose headsets and BBs. They only get them seen to usually when its too late.
This is what Im getting at and pobably what chris king is getting at. They are only good if you have a Team Mechanic or service your bike very regularly using a GOOD Mechanic.

DirkVoodoo

kona wrote: »

Em, what Manufacturers offer a Lifetime guarantee on their Frames?


If you ride a Integrated Headset loose your going to destroy your bike, Unfortunatley Alot of people do ride their bikes with loose headsets and BBs. They only get them seen to usually when its too late.
This is what Im getting at and pobably what chris king is getting at. They are only good if you have a Team Mechanic or service your bike very regularly using a GOOD Mechanic.

I think Trek do? Not for crashes, I think it is a manufacturing warranty, which should be obvious for anyone thinking about crashing their trek into a wall.

blorg

kona wrote: »

Em, what Manufacturers offer a Lifetime guarantee on their Frames?

Pretty much all of them. To pick just a few Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant (all using integrated headsets), Litespeed, Van Nicholas (although they don't use integrated headsets.) Lifetime to the original owner.

Some have exclusions, Cannondale limits freeride models to 3 years for example.

They are only good if you have a Team Mechanic or service your bike very regularly using a GOOD Mechanic.

Tightening a headset properly is not exactly rocket science.

kona

blorg wrote: »

Pretty much all of them. To pick just a few Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant (all using integrated headsets), Litespeed, Van Nicholas (although they don't use integrated headsets.) Lifetime to the original owner..

All Aluminium Frames? :eek:

blorg wrote: »

Some have exclusions, Cannondale limits freeride models to 3 years for example...

That cant be right, all Manufaturers have clauses in their guarantees, Misuse is usually the First. How they can guarantee Freeride I have not Idea, I mean Hucking off a Cliff, How can you design a frame to cope with all that?

blorg wrote: »

Tightening a headset properly is not exactly rocket science.

Neither is Locking your bike properly, Reading about your guarantee, Bringing it to a LBS regularly for a service, Yet People seem to be unable to do these tasks.


Also the amount of loose headsets I tighten on bikes which the owner only wants a
gear adjust is frightening. I dont think that its ease of adjustment is a defense for Idiots.(look at some of the Threads on bike issues on this forum)

kona

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I think Trek do? Not for crashes, I think it is a manufacturing warranty, which should be obvious for anyone thinking about crashing their trek into a wall.

They wont cover a headtube that has ovality due to a Loose Integrated Headset. No way. Thats not a Frame fault.

DirkVoodoo

You only asked which offer lifetime warranties, I said they do but only for manufacturing defects.

kona

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

You only asked which offer lifetime warranties, I said they do but only for manufacturing defects.

Oh I know, But warranties dont mean its a do what the **** you like and well replace it.:)

Some people take warranties as covering everything, I got from Blorg that the frame guarantee would cover ovality in the Headtube due to Integrated Headsets. I am just pointing out, it probably doesnt.:)

blorg

kona wrote: »

All Aluminium Frames? :eek:

As far as I know, yes, certainly Trek and Specialized do and I know of enough stories of people who got a frame crack in their 10 year old aluminium Trek and got it replaced with a current year model no questions asked.

That cant be right, all Manufaturers have clauses in their guarantees, Misuse is usually the First. How they can guarantee Freeride I have not Idea, I mean Hucking off a Cliff, How can you design a frame to cope with all that?

Yes, they will all exclude tricks and jumps and damage from collisions. It's meant to cover manufacturing faults only. Cannondale probably just limit it so as to be upfront and so they don't have to argue about it over a frame that has been whacked about for 3 years.

As to ovalisation or cracking of the headtube, I don't know, maybe they would put it down to lack of proper maintenance. You would think though if it was such an endemic problem with the design the internet would be full of reports from people who have cracked their headtubes complaining that the manufacturer wouldn't replace the frame under the lifetime warranty. This is simply not the case despite millions and millions of bikes sold over the last decade.

kona

blorg wrote: »

. This is simply not the case despite millions and millions of bikes sold over the last decade.

No way is there millions and millions of bikes with Integrated Headsets.

Maybe it is covered, or maybe the people who are willing to not maintain a bike that cost the guts of 1k or more, are quite few.

I wouldnt expect the guarantee to cover it tbh.

blorg

kona wrote: »

No way is there millions and millions of bikes with Integrated Headsets.

I would reckon there are. Cheaper bikes come with them these days, it is by no means limited to bikes "over €1,000." I'm not au-fait with cheap mountain bikes but both my Giant Bowery and Specialized Tricross have them as do modern Specialized entry-level hybrids, etc. A bike that has a non-integrated headset is the surprising exception these days.

kona

blorg wrote: »

I would reckon there are. Cheaper bikes come with them these days, it is by no means limited to bikes "over €1,000." I'm not au-fait with cheap mountain bikes but both my Giant Bowery and Specialized Tricross have them as do modern Specialized entry-level hybrids, etc. A bike that has a non-integrated headset is the surprising exception these days.

I think your confusting Internal (semi integrated) with Integrated?

blorg

kona wrote: »

I think your confusting Internal (semi integrated) with Integrated?

From a quick Google it seems the Bowery may be semi integrated but I think the Tricross is integrated (I have never taken it apart):

Specialized wrote:

Specialized Mindset Plus, 1 1/8" integrated threadless, cartridge sealed bearings, alloy 20mm cone w/ one 10mm and two 5mm alloy spacers.

I think it's the same IS-2 standard.

My cross bike, winter road bike and track bike are certainly integrated though, they use a FSA Orbit like this (IS-2, cross bike):



and this (Campagnolo, road and track bike):



EDIT: I checked the bikes, Bowery is semi-integrated, you can see the bottom of the lower cup, Tricross is integrated, no lower cup.

at1withmyself

Good to see the Specialized Mindset get a mention - I have/had one on my carbon hardtail and when I needed to replace it (after 2 years) I contacted Specialized who told me I had to order a specific specialized Mindset for my bike due to the depth of the bearing and the angles.

Thankfully after a lot of internet searching I found I could replace the bearings so long as I used the original race's. One for anyone with a mindset to keep in mind. Most cycle shops in Ireland couldn't understand what I was talking about when I rang and asked them if they could get me a Mindset.

This resulted in my bike being out of action for over 4 weeks and due to this I will never buy a Specialized frame!!!!

I think the internal ones are much nicer looking but am sceptical as to the life of these units as I am seeing more Headset issue's with my current bikes then when I had traditional headsets. My last mountain bike had an FSA unit in it for the life of the bike which was 12 years, every year I took the headset apart to clean and re-grease but never replaced any parts of it, was well happy with the unit.

blorg

The headset on my Specialized, although described on the internet as a "Mindset" is actually Cane Creek branded, I imagine a standard IS-2.

at1withmyself

blorg wrote: »

The headset on my Specialized, although described on the internet as a "Mindset" is actually Cane Creek branded, I imagine a standard IS-2.

Ya Cane Creek manufactured the mindset alright but unfortunately they don't make a suitable replacement (as far as i could tell). I bought about 10 - 15 internal headsets (FSA, Cane Creek, Pro-lite & more) before I found the correct one, thankfully i was able to post them back for a few quid.

The bearings from this will do the job but keep the mindset cups in order to keep it all neat and tidy with the frame. The bearing size is 41.0 mm in diameter and 6.5 mm in height and 36º/45º angular contact bearings.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=29302


Although you can still order a mindset through a specialized dealer but it can take a few weeks and only useful if you have a competent dealer near you!!

bcmf

rather then opening a new thread I will post here.

Ignorance.
Whay are there different brands of Headsets under the same name
ie on CRC there is
a Token Integrated Ritchey
a Token Integrated Campag
a Token Integrated Cane Creek.

lescol

Differing bearing sizes/fittings. See here:- http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=68