The N.L.P thread

Torakx

hi folks,
i hope this is the right place on these forums for this topic.if not i hope the mods will move it to the right place.
I have been reading up alot recently on NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming).
During that time i have seen some intereting videos regarding this too.
It seems to me that NLP is not a hoax in itself but appears to be still so new that it has not been regulated properly yet.
I understand people being wary of its practitioners and i would encourage others to be the same way.I certainly dont think NLP should be treated with the same likeness as you would its many practitioners.i am sure alot of them are good at what they do. it is just an industry that is open for abuse right now.

with all that said i am still extremely interested in NLP's potential to create rapport,help redirect your goals in life to suit and many other helpful things.
i do have some questions that so far i cant get answers to or maybe i am not so good at sifting through spam sites.
If anyone can help i would appreciate it and hopefully it will enlighten a few people along the way.

One question that comes to mind is about the longevity of the effect or change afterwards.
I have seen a video where you can be shown how to place an anchor like a gesture and a word spoken to link emotions and feelings like eg. confidence and was informed that to keep this effective you must redo the routine only 5-10 minutes once to three times a week to keep it working.

One of my questions is, would a person need to do this for the rest of there lives or is there a time when the habit of linking that anchor to that emotion be ingrained like a formed habit?
I hear the effect depletes as you use it.If so this seems to be a temp fix and not permanent if that applies to all nlp.

I also wonder are there any psychologists practicing today that utilize nlp or have trained in it to compliment their work with clients?

Are the majority of psychologists in ireland strongly against the use of nlp and if so why?

That is all i can think to write on this post for now.
What i hope to get out of this thread is an idea of how nlp and psychology can work together if at all.And hopefully to gain more insight into the parts of nlp i can possibly use and the parts i can discard.After all this is distracting me temporarily from psychology,which is not really good for my future college dreams i would imagine.

i hope this doesnt turn into a highly modded thread.
i would appreciate both positive and negative replies.
Thanks for reading.

leggo

NLP is psychologically discredited. I was listening to a podcast ('Skeptoid') just last week discussing it and stating it was more of a sales tactic than a psychological treatment. I would agree with that assertion.

I strongly disagree with its application and recommendation in the pick-up community, of which I also have a great interest in. In practise it is complex and weakly applied, in theory (even if it were 100% accurate) it is morally reprehensible. Essentially men look to it as a shortcut to almost 'trick' the opposite sex into liking them. And, when challenged, practicioners become aggravated in an almost scientology-like manner. This spells major warning signs to me.

I would only recommend its use for cool party tricks (ala Derren Brown) and as a self-help stimulant with a willing participant...for both accuracy and morality reasons. And, even in saying that, it's along similar lines to hypnosis as a credited practise...so if you're not a fan of hypnosis, seek other avenues than NLP.

To answer your questions, the practise essentially relies on serving as a short-term quickfix to a long-term problem, i.e. if you're using it for giving up smoking etc, it may help to get you off the smokes and stay off them initially...but its 'effects' will fade without the necessary willpower. Yes they do ask you re-apply it regularly in the beginning, but doing so for the rest of your life will see the alleged 'effects' wear off. So it's just a means of channeling willpower that is already there. Not a bad thing, mind.

Essentially, at best, I've found that NLP merely serves as a good catalyst for those who use it. However, you could easily create a technique similar to it that creates a similar effect. There's more than one way to skin a cat and all that.

As a conclusive psychological technique, it falls down further and further the more the microscope is shone upon it. But that isn't to say that it doesn't have some merit and use. It's just far from the miracle cure that its biggest supporters claim it is.

Odysseus

Firstly, I will acknowledge that I have a limited experience of NLP. However, I'm an ultra runner in my spare time amongst other things and I have seen people use it to help the achieve their goals. So I think its useful there I have seen it used in a few sports.

Now, here is my problem with NLP. Not all, but a lot of people who use it have in my experience very limited training. That may be fine to help someone achieve a goal, especially if they are motivated around it. However, the amount of time I have come across people using NLP and other similar ideas to treat serious pathologies is quite high. I work with some very vulnerable and have seen it cause more harm that good.

Now the point is that the above is not the fault of NLP, but the people who are using it. I acknowledge that, but I find it interesting that a lot of people who use NLP [usually a few months training max] have very little other psychotherapeutic qualifications. I think that it is often see as a quick fix to the clients problem, and a nice littke earner for the person using it. I have seen a lot of NLP people charge more for a session than I would.

So that's basically my opinion on it, as I said I have done very little study on it, but I'm working in this area a few years now and the above is generally what I see. So as I said I think it may be of use in sports and may help some people change some behaviours in their their live, but I think its use is very limited, and if the person is that motivated to change something maybe they would have have done themselves over a longer time.

Torakx

Thanks for the replies so far.
I tend to agree with alot of what was said so far.

My main interest in nlp with regards to practising psychology is more for other things than what most seem to see nlp useful for.
With the nlp books i have read, it seems to me that it could well compliment psychologists in training for building rapport with clients,telling wether they are lying by looking at there eyes and body language,tone of voice,setting them at ease via mirroring,tone of voice,eye blinking and mirror breathing etc.

I find these abilities that nlp gives people to be facinating and i really would like to know if those are covered in a psychology course.

For a psychologist i think it would be important to have those qualities but i dont know if its covered in any psychology course or to what extent.
I feel that psychology is the greatest path to understanding the mind so far and would love to see it grow and encompass the best of other types of mind related techniques.

Odysseus

Torakx wrote: »

Thanks for the replies so far.
I tend to agree with alot of what was said so far.

My main interest in nlp with regards to practising psychology is more for other things than what most seem to see nlp useful for.
With the nlp books i have read, it seems to me that it could well compliment psychologists in training for building rapport with clients,telling wether they are lying by looking at there eyes and body language,tone of voice,setting them at ease via mirroring,tone of voice,eye blinking and mirror breathing etc.

I find these abilities that nlp gives people to be facinating and i really would like to know if those are covered in a psychology course.

For a psychologist i think it would be important to have those qualities but i dont know if its covered in any psychology course or to what extent.
I feel that psychology is the greatest path to understanding the mind so far and would love to see it grow and encompass the best of other types of mind related techniques.

Now I'm only giving you one view of therapy, but very little of the above is of any use to me. I want clients to know that I provide a sefe environment to speak, rather than putting them at ease I gernerallly want to increases anxiety levels within a session. Most of mt clients have had hoffific life stories they will not be at ease speaking about their experiences.

I pay very little attention to body lagugage, a person sitting on the egdge of the chair may tell me something, but at the end of the day its want they say that matters to me. As regards lying, whats the NLP stance the eyes go up and to the left? Some of my client would come fron a serious criminal lifestyle they can lie and you might never pick up on it, they have been in interrogation rooms since they where kids, so believe me they are very good at it if they wish to do so.

Now the HSE won't buy a couch for me, what alot of people do is place one chair in front of the other. So very little of the above would be of any use in that situation, though you don't put a person on the couch for a while.

Personally I hold very little eye-contact with clients, I will note dress, certain aspects of body language, things like tattoos. scars etc, they tell me something but its very subjective how I interpret them if you get my point. Language is really the only tool I have as a therapist.

Mr Benevolent

leggo wrote: »

NLP is psychologically discredited. I was listening to a podcast ('Skeptoid') just last week discussing it and stating it was more of a sales tactic than a psychological treatment. I would agree with that assertion.

I strongly disagree with its application and recommendation in the pick-up community, of which I also have a great interest in. In practise it is complex and weakly applied, in theory (even if it were 100% accurate) it is morally reprehensible. Essentially men look to it as a shortcut to almost 'trick' the opposite sex into liking them. And, when challenged, practicioners become aggravated in an almost scientology-like manner. This spells major warning signs to me.

I would only recommend its use for cool party tricks (ala Derren Brown) and as a self-help stimulant with a willing participant...for both accuracy and morality reasons. And, even in saying that, it's along similar lines to hypnosis as a credited practise...so if you're not a fan of hypnosis, seek other avenues than NLP.

To answer your questions, the practise essentially relies on serving as a short-term quickfix to a long-term problem, i.e. if you're using it for giving up smoking etc, it may help to get you off the smokes and stay off them initially...but its 'effects' will fade without the necessary willpower. Yes they do ask you re-apply it regularly in the beginning, but doing so for the rest of your life will see the alleged 'effects' wear off. So it's just a means of channeling willpower that is already there. Not a bad thing, mind.

Essentially, at best, I've found that NLP merely serves as a good catalyst for those who use it. However, you could easily create a technique similar to it that creates a similar effect. There's more than one way to skin a cat and all that.

As a conclusive psychological technique, it falls down further and further the more the microscope is shone upon it. But that isn't to say that it doesn't have some merit and use. It's just far from the miracle cure that its biggest supporters claim it is.

Let me guess, you're either a psychotherapist or hypnotherapist, right?

Torakx

Odysseus wrote: »

Now I'm only giving you one view of therapy, but very little of the above is of any use to me. I want clients to know that I provide a sefe environment to speak, rather than putting them at ease I gernerallly want to increases anxiety levels within a session. Most of mt clients have had hoffific life stories they will not be at ease speaking about their experiences.

I pay very little attention to body lagugage, a person sitting on the egdge of the chair may tell me something, but at the end of the day its want they say that matters to me. As regards lying, whats the NLP stance the eyes go up and to the left? Some of my client would come fron a serious criminal lifestyle they can lie and you might never pick up on it, they have been in interrogation rooms since they where kids, so believe me they are very good at it if they wish to do so.

Now the HSE won't buy a couch for me, what alot of people do is place one chair in front of the other. So very little of the above would be of any use in that situation, though you don't put a person on the couch for a while.

Personally I hold very little eye-contact with clients, I will note dress, certain aspects of body language, things like tattoos. scars etc, they tell me something but its very subjective how I interpret them if you get my point. Language is really the only tool I have as a therapist.

well for example using nlp you would first find out from letting the client talk what modalities he/she uses for taking in information.it might be more visual eg. they say "do you SEE what i mean" or audio or kinesthetic,depending on there responses would decide how you comunicate better with them.

should you wish to create friction with the client which i understand is necessary sometimes to heal you could do opposites also with body language.
i have read that nonverbal communication accounts for 80% of all communication.
i find this to be true when i watch videos of master nlp practitioners at work.

about the lying part.to the best of my knowledge there is alot more to lying than moving your eyes a certain way.tone of voice would be another example.also with the eyes it depends if they are left or right handed or what side of the brain they use i think.i have only covered one book so far on this so forgive me if im not good at explaining.
by the way the perfect setting for mirroring would not be on a couch but both facing each other on chairs preferably without a desk.to do the opposite i guess you could ask questions with your back to them looking out a window playing with a pencil or something.

when you wrote about creating a safe enviornment and also creating stress levels i think nlp would be the perfect tool for this,i may be wrong but id like peoples honest oppinion.
using anchoring techniques you can inside one session anchor a calm emotion to say a word and a gesture while also in the session anchor an anxiety state if you wish also to a different word and gesture.
these might be helpful techniques to ease clients between states depending on the healing process.
i would still love to hear also from anyone who has done a course in psychology say ucd or trinity to let me know if this stuff is covered or if there is compensation for not having these techniques.

JuliusCaesar

It doesn't have much of an evidence base. If you search the internet, you might come up with some articles written from the viewpoint of psychologists eg this one.

snow ghost

NLP seems to be suffering from Galileo Syndrome amongst other proponents of forms of more traditional and widely accepted psychology... not suprising when paradigms are challenged.

Accepted there are some charlatans out there claiming they can use it to make miracles, you'll always get that.

It is best for the individual to try it themselves and form their own view as to whether it works or not.

On a personal level, I believe some of it does.

leggo

Confab wrote: »

Let me guess, you're either a psychotherapist or hypnotherapist, right?

Neither actually. Don't work in the field...I'm just fascinated by it.

Odysseus

Torakx wrote: »

well for example using nlp you would first find out from letting the client talk what modalities he/she uses for taking in information.it might be more visual eg. they say "do you SEE what i mean" or audio or kinesthetic,depending on there responses would decide how you comunicate better with them.

should you wish to create friction with the client which i understand is necessary sometimes to heal you could do opposites also with body language.
i have read that nonverbal communication accounts for 80% of all communication.
i find this to be true when i watch videos of master nlp practitioners at work.

about the lying part.to the best of my knowledge there is alot more to lying than moving your eyes a certain way.tone of voice would be another example.also with the eyes it depends if they are left or right handed or what side of the brain they use i think.i have only covered one book so far on this so forgive me if im not good at explaining.
by the way the perfect setting for mirroring would not be on a couch but both facing each other on chairs preferably without a desk.to do the opposite i guess you could ask questions with your back to them looking out a window playing with a pencil or something.

when you wrote about creating a safe enviornment and also creating stress levels i think nlp would be the perfect tool for this,i may be wrong but id like peoples honest oppinion.
using anchoring techniques you can inside one session anchor a calm emotion to say a word and a gesture while also in the session anchor an anxiety state if you wish also to a different word and gesture.
these might be helpful techniques to ease clients between states depending on the healing process.
i would still love to hear also from anyone who has done a course in psychology say ucd or trinity to let me know if this stuff is covered or if there is compensation for not having these techniques.

Sorry I just can't agree with you. As a therapist the only intervention I have open to me is language, putting words on things if you will. I personally don't have any time for NLP, I stated above about its use in sports.

Now here I want to be careful, because clearly you have found it to be of use to you, great and I'm not being patronising. However, How long does it take to train to the highest level of NLP, correct me if I'm wrong. However, I guess over a period of a year doing weekend courses you would be there.

I have seen people trained as NLP practitioners then try to treat people with serious psychological issues, and in my experience then I'm left to pick up the pieces, it a horrible situation for the client. When training in NLP there is no training in psychodiagnostics, serious mental health issues, even as a psychoanalyst I had to study psychobiology. This is the problem I have with it. I have friends who have trained in various forms of psychology/psychotherapy to high standards.

I have never met anyone who has trained up to Masters or PhD level consider NLP as a treatment. My understanding of this is that this is the case because we don't consider it to be a treatment option for the people we treat. I'm not saying that it hasn't helped people change behaviours in the life it has. Some of my clients would have been exposed to it at some stage, but its effect is in my opinion very limited. However, the NLP people I have met believe it to be a world changing treatment. I would consider it something like basic relaxation skills or the various assertiveness training that used to be popular, yes it can help people, is it a treatment for psychological issues no.

I never studied psychology my main qualifications are in psychoanalysis, and I have trained in various other treatment modalities, but I think I can answer your question about psychology courses and NLP the answer would be no. I hope I don't come across as attacking you, because that is not what my aim is. You mentioned anxiety, the main stay of my work:) Here is the thing, I never met anybody who trained in NLP who could give me the diagnostic criteria for say panic disorder, now as a psychoanalyst I wouldn't use the DSM or ICD-10 criteria [these are the recognised diagnostic manuals] but at least I'm aware of them, if you get my point. Yet the same people were telling me NLP was a excellent treatment for that disorder.

In my experience the people who would be attracted to working with NLP would also be attrached to hypnotherapy and the training for that in Ireland is very poor in my opinion.

As I said just my opinion, you have started a journey of interest in the human condition through NLP, great and I hope you continue to study and explore it. No treatment has all the answers, as I said I hope I don't sound patronising keep up your intertest and study in it. Most of the regualar posters here are very helpful around getting started in the area, so keep using here too.

Now I'm not being funny here, because as therapists we are constantly learning, studying etc, but have a look at your post, you read a bit about NLP and your telling me how to work with clients, and how NLP would facilitate this. Now you may have your own experience of therapy, but really nobody knows what the other side of therapy is like until they experience it. I'm not attacking you on this, but have a think on it.

krankykitty

I don't have much indepth knowledge about NLP, but was seriously put off it when I spoke to someone who was supposed to be a practitioner of it, said they could "cure" anyone of ANY issue in three sessions. Sounded a bit unlikely to me

I'm sure it does have some positive applications, in terms of sports or goal focused stuff, but when it comes to any deep seated psychological issues or disorders I'd worry that it might do more harm than good.

Odysseus

krankykitty wrote: »

I don't have much indepth knowledge about NLP, but was seriously put off it when I spoke to someone who was supposed to be a practitioner of it, said they could "cure" anyone of ANY issue in three sessions. Sounded a bit unlikely to me


I'm sure it does have some positive applications, in terms of sports or goal focused stuff, but when it comes to any deep seated psychological issues or disorders I'd worry that it might do more harm than good.

That is one of the main issues I have with it. I would like to see that happen with any of my more chaotic dual diagnosis clients. Actually I take that back because I seen it and was left picking up the pieces as I stated above. Its appalling really. Now the practitioner is responsable for that not NLP but it's a common enough statement from NLP practitioners.

Torakx

thanks for keeping this thread going so peacefully guys.
i certainly dont want to imply that nlp will EVER do the job psychology does.
i think it has also limited uses.
i think also psychology has limited uses but not as many as nlp for sure.
what i was trying to find out for my own future training is wether psychology will give me skills in those areas i spoke of that from what i see are only gained through nlp.
i think people are getting mixed up with what i consider the good parts of nlp to be.
please understand i totally accept its is by and large not useful for psychological issues as it stands.
but i am interested in its usefullness for understanding people better and at what angle their coming from plus a few other techniques.
it is a good point you make Odysseus about how long it would take to train.
i believe it would at least take up to 2 years of experience to get anywhere near mastering it.
maybe i am being overly fantastic with my imagination but i do have a picture in my head of a counselor taking the base of psychology and complimenting it with nlp to create more ways to get through to clients and communicate with them better than say a regular psychologist or whatever the role may be.

i dont wish anyone to admit to this or agree to that.
im only looking for information on the diference in techniques and where the gaps are between the two.
i havent done a psychology course yet and have no idea if those positive things i would take from nlp exist or not in psychology.if not i would like to use nlp to increase my abilities to work with people(my own preference) after i have finished my psychology training(should i get around to it ).
if they do exist i would be indeed wasting my time studying nlp and would like to know asap.
i understand Carl jung worked with prisoners i remember vaguely a story he told about how he figured out a prisoner had actually killed someone but it wasnt the murder in question.i think he used a technique that incorperated comparing word relationships with the subject.not sure on the story i read it a while ago.
but this could be an example of nlp like techniques used in psychology or not.
i am new to psychology so i might suggest alot of mad things but i will regularly tell myself my ideas so far are baseless as i have not gone through any training in either subject.
sorry for the long post.i know its a touchy subject to be planting in the psychology forum.i do appreciate all the responses.

Odysseus

Torakx, just my own opinion, I know things can get heated here now and again, but I have found this to be one of the more friendly forums. There is a significant difference between your questions and some of the more trolling posts we can get here.

As you may have guessed by now I'm not a big fan of NLP, but you certainly entitled to bring the topic up in a psych forum.

Even the two years is quite minimal as it's usually taught through weekend blocks. Everybody is different, but to give you a sense my degree and Masters where in psychoanalysis. I continue to study it and currently I'm trying to work out how I can afford to continue with study. The irony is I do a small amount of lecturing and with the latest round of pay cuts within the HSE [starts tomorrow for me] I can't afford to study at university level this year. I underwent five years of personal analysis as part of my training. I am obliged by professional bodies to prove each each that I have contiued to train.

I had trained in CBT, MI, CISS, structured relapse prevention, specific areas such as bereavment, suicide prevention the list just goes on. My point here is that I still question my professional abilities to work therapeutically with people. Now compare that with Krankykitty's post above. I have encountered that attuide on numerous occassions.

All I can really say is continue on with your study, like lots of others I have studied psychological interventions that I would never use in my own work. However, other people work that way and in order to communicate with them and understand their approach I have studied it.

You said you haven't studied psychology yet, why not try a night course in it. Lots of places do the type of "An Introduction to Psychology" qualification wise it will be of no use, but it might move you forward with your question around NLP and Psychology. At the end of the day we all have to start somewhere, you started with NLP. All I would say is continue with the journey, see where it brings you.

hotspur

Torakx wrote: »

if they do exist i would be indeed wasting my time studying nlp and would like to know asap.

Now this is a very good question.

I'm not claiming any expertise in any field but I can speak from the perspective of someone who has studied psychology in TCD like you asked, addiction at postgrad level, psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, and has had a little training in and read NLP (I have a folder on my computer desktop here with 42 NLP books on it).

Btw psychology is not psychotherapy btw, you seem to be confusing this a little, a psychology degree is not a clinical qualification, if you have an interest in being a therapist I would say look at studying psychotherapy as it will take you many years to do a psychology degree, get some experience, then do a postgraduate counselling psychology masters / doctorate or clinical psychology doctorate.

That you consider NLP to have possible applications to psychotherapy is hardly surprising given that it was originally produced by Bandler and Grinder out of studying the communication patterns of therapists such as Fritz Perls, Virginia Satir, and Milton Erickson in their work.

However as soon as they discovered that lots of people were willing to pay good money to do short training in it it became a pure industry. That got worse and worse over the years to the point where the empirical basis of it wasn't even considered relevant to the purpose of making money from trainings and NLP sessions with clients. Mostly it morphed into hypnotherapy with a new pseudoscientific language to make it sound impressive to the layperson.

In answer to your question is it ever mentioned in psychology courses - no it isn't, and it would be considered to have a similar level of validity as phrenology. NLP is not an empirically based subject, and what research has been done on its features has found them to have no basis.

I don't consider that NLP has any additivity to the existing body of knowledge in psychology or to the existing body of techniques in psychotherapy. The kinds of things you listed as being possibly helpful in psychotherapy are not a list you would ever produce if you studied psychotherapy.

The inauthenticity of what you regard as methods of rapport building which NLP could contribute to psychotherapy is so damning and undermining of the essential feature of congruence as a core condition. Other things you suggest for better communication such as being aware of preferred representational systems has been shown by research to have no basis in reality - these preferences don't exist.

Any aspect or technique which exists in NLP which may be of genuine benefit to psychotherapy already exists in psychotherapy. If you have a genuine interest in real therapy and putting the time and effort in to study and train in it then I advise getting some cognitive behavioural therapy books and reading them to see if you can relate to their myriad of techniques. If you are interested in motivating people to change then I suggest reading about motivational interviewing. These are evidentially based change therapies.

You see these are serious topics which are covered by real scientists and real mental health practitioners. There is very little or nothing of true value in NLP which you won't get from a therapeutic modality within the mainstream mental health field.

NLP is not new or misunderstood. It is decades old, its principles and techniques understood and not regarded as an empirically based useful addition to the existing body of knowledge which can lead to evidence based treatments.

If you decide you wish to read some CBT feel free to pm me and I'll recommend texts to you.

Torakx

Well after the last two posts i have a bit to take in hehe.
Thanks guys for all the info, i had assumed ignorantly that a psychology course was the main and prefered way to get to be a counselor.
As i am extremely poor i can only go to college on a grant as a mature student.
I think other courses can be done this way.However i think i only get one shot with a grant so i have to be carefull i make the right choice.

My original path has always been psychology. i had so many downs in my life that i had to study what was going on inside that head of mine.
So the likes of Freud and Jung where my inspirations and i couldnt change from that foundation.Everything after those two guys is bonus time
I will carry on with the psychology but i think i still have a place in my heart for nlp especially with work on myself.i havent ruled all of it out yet.
Im very hesitant to commit to a course or direction(regarding psychology or psychotherapy). It seems like its a hard climb to the top and im not sure i have it in me to do it all the way and keep myself fed and clothed.
I certainly wont be doing any nlp courses before a psychology one. or i hope i wouldnt betray myself like that

Odysseus

Torakx wrote: »

Well after the last two posts i have a bit to take in hehe.
Thanks guys for all the info, i had assumed ignorantly that a psychology course was the main and prefered way to get to be a counselor.
As i am extremely poor i can only go to college on a grant as a mature student.
I think other courses can be done this way.However i think i only get one shot with a grant so i have to be carefull i make the right choice.

My original path has always been psychology. i had so many downs in my life that i had to study what was going on inside that head of mine.
So the likes of Freud and Jung where my inspirations and i couldnt change from that foundation.Everything after those two guys is bonus time
I will carry on with the psychology but i think i still have a place in my heart for nlp especially with work on myself.i havent ruled all of it out yet.
Im very hesitant to commit to a course or direction(regarding psychology or psychotherapy). It seems like its a hard climb to the top and im not sure i have it in me to do it all the way and keep myself fed and clothed.
I certainly wont be doing any nlp courses before a psychology one. or i hope i wouldnt betray myself like that

Why hehe? Do you think I winding you up? Hotspur's post appeared quite helpful to me too.

You metion Freud and Jung, now I have only studied a small amount of Jung. However, I have been studing Freud for nealy 14 years, there is no room if working in a Freudian manner for NLP. Most psychologist's would no time for either Freud or Jung, and there study of either would be very minimal, at most a small amount in a History of Psychology module, unless of course they studied at a particular college which have a good amount of psychoanalysis on it. As Hotspur noted psychology and psychotherapy are diffenent things.

Torakx

Sorry i dont know what you think i thought you were winding me up about. LOL
I ment that i had alot of info to take in because i read the two posts and replied straight away.It was alot to try and remmeber while i wrote.

Im a bit dissapointed to hear there wont be alot of study on Carl jung.
His work was so much of a force for helping me through some transitions the last year or so and the type of work he did and the analysis he did was very inspiring for me and still is.
Ive just started reading Carl Jungs answer to job should be interesting to see a psychological analyst get to work on God.Possibly blasphemus but if so i will surely see him in hell
I will have to start researching exactly what i am going to do or want to do.
I know an nlp course is useless to me right now but i think a psychology quick introductory course might be a waste of a grant too.
Infact if i did get into UCD for example i might(most likely) find myself coming out the other end with no qualifications to work at all in those areas.

I would like to work with teenagers and young adults later on in life.When i look back to when i was 17 to around 28 i realise i was not concious of half as much as i am now and i feel like it would almost be a sin to let others follow the same destructive path i did.
I just had some strong religous conditioning i needed to break from.My blinkers have been removed or at least most of the way and i can see around me alot better ,so to speak.
My issue i think is not knowing where exactly i can help the most.Is there work for a school counselor do they actually make a big difference and can i make a decent living out of it?
Also i am very interested in mind control and deprogramming.Is there a route i would need to take that didnt involve a medical degree? Or is religious and other mind control techniques explained in training and methods already worked out for deprogramming on a basic level?
i read alot of different types of websites/blogs and child abduction and abuse has stuck in the forefront of my mind as something that needs to be combated asap.
I dont have any experience with abuse in my life thankfully but my heart goes out to those who have and i think that might be my wish as a counselor or psychologist/psychotherapist in the future.
I will be 30 later this year and im wondering is it cutting it a bit late to start training for this role? especially considering right now i have no leaving cert will be a mature student and have no money to start with.
Its quite possible i am just kidding myself and it is just a dream i will never accomplish.

As for this thread on nlp i feel obliged to keep it on topic but it has run its course for now as i have not studied or practised nlp myself ...yet
Maybe after i have gotten my priorities straight.

Odysseus

I'm in work now so can only give you a quick response. I was 27 when I started training, I now people who where in their 40s and older when they started so you not too old. With psychology as Hotspur noted CBT is one of the main modalities of treatment. To work clinically as a psychologist is a very long road.

If you interested in Jung the is an Irish Jungian Society so if you wanted to train that way they would be the people to contact.

hotspur

As Odysseus said counselling / psychotherapy is something that most people start late and is usually a second career. 30 would be under the average age for people starting training as a psychotherapist.

Costs are an issue. Most courses are not at 3rd level institutions at which one can avail of the free fees scheme. However given that you say you are on social welfare there may be a contribution which they will make to fees elsewhere. I recall at foundation level anyway I knew someone who had the majority of his fee paid for the social welfare.

I would recommend looking at a foundation course in counselling and seeing if you can avail of some manner of back to college scheme for the fees, I don't really know anything about such schemes I'm afraid.

One place to consider is Liberties College. Not only do they have a foundation counselling course which only costs €245 in administration fee(which I'm sure is so little that you could get it paid for by the social welfare), but their full time professional counselling course accredited by the IACP also only costs that in an administration fee. Here is their site:
http://www.libertiescollege.ie/pages/Department%20of%20%20Health%20Care%20Community%20Care/Dept%20of%20Health%20Care%20and%20Community%20Care.htm

Finally, and I don't mean to sound funny here. But some of the content of your posts and particularly ones I've seen from you in the conspiracy forum indicate some extremely unusual beliefs about the world. Trust me you still have a lot of time to pursue an interest in a career as a mental health professional, there's no value in making an aborted attempt too early in your own personal development.

Torakx

Thanks for info on courses il look into that some more and it is a little bit of a relief to hear about the age thing. I guess i like to stack the odds against myself.
About the conspiracy forums, i do indeed have an open mind about life and everything in it.
I do also have some extremely unusal posts about the world but when i say believe i think i use it too loosely.
I might comment on a topic about aliens but i dont subscribe to the belief i only accept it is possible.im more of an extremely open minded fence sitter.
most likely why i entertain nlp as well as psychology. i dont trust(or fully understand) either but i would like to understand and make use of the best of both worlds.

i do see though my habit of fanciful thought and i think i would like to keep that into old age hehe

ste2010

Hey guys Im looking to do an NLP course to build my understanding of it. I have 2 choices really rom distance learning. There is a CMIT diploma in NLP which actually looks very comprehensive. and then there is the practitioners course which I hear can be putting certs in the wrong hands of some people. I reviewed the course overview and it seems like the practitioners course doesnt cover as much as the diploma. Has anyone got any inout on this?

JuliusCaesar

You might look at post 16 above.

Myksyk

hotspur wrote: »

NLP is not an empirically based subject, and what research has been done on its features has found them to have no basis.

I don't consider that NLP has any additivity to the existing body of knowledge in psychology or to the existing body of techniques in psychotherapy. The kinds of things you listed as being possibly helpful in psychotherapy are not a list you would ever produce if you studied psychotherapy.

The inauthenticity of what you regard as methods of rapport building which NLP could contribute to psychotherapy is so damning and undermining of the essential feature of congruence as a core condition. Other things you suggest for better communication such as being aware of preferred representational systems has been shown by research to have no basis in reality - these preferences don't exist.

Any aspect or technique which exists in NLP which may be of genuine benefit to psychotherapy already exists in psychotherapy. If you have a genuine interest in real therapy and putting the time and effort in to study and train in it then I advise getting some cognitive behavioural therapy books and reading them to see if you can relate to their myriad of techniques. If you are interested in motivating people to change then I suggest reading about motivational interviewing. These are evidentially based change therapies.

You see these are serious topics which are covered by real scientists and real mental health practitioners. There is very little or nothing of true value in NLP which you won't get from a therapeutic modality within the mainstream mental health field.

NLP is not new or misunderstood. It is decades old, its principles and techniques understood and not regarded as an empirically based useful addition to the existing body of knowledge which can lead to evidence based treatments.

If you decide you wish to read some CBT feel free to pm me and I'll recommend texts to you.

Spot on.

Kooli

hotspur wrote: »

The inauthenticity of what you regard as methods of rapport building which NLP could contribute to psychotherapy is so damning and undermining of the essential feature of congruence as a core condition.

Never a truer word spoken! I think that actually summarises my main objection to the whole field.

orthus

ste2010 wrote: »

Hey guys Im looking to do an NLP course to build my understanding of it. I have 2 choices really rom distance learning. There is a CMIT diploma in NLP which actually looks very comprehensive. and then there is the practitioners course which I hear can be putting certs in the wrong hands of some people. I reviewed the course overview and it seems like the practitioners course doesnt cover as much as the diploma. Has anyone got any inout on this?

Hi ste2010,
Just read you thread and I was wondering Do you still looking for a course?, I am interested in NLP as well and I had booked a course for this october. However I've got a new job after trying to change for nearly a year, The job start one week the coursed and I can't ask for days off, it is a pity but a new job at the moment more important than the course.

The coursed cover <edit by p.pete>stuff advertising course</edit>

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you want more information. I can send you some more info

Thanks

kateof

Hi Odysseus,
I'm curious about the reasons for not maintaing eye contact with your clients.

kateof

hotspur wrote: »

Now this is a very good question.

I'm not claiming any expertise in any field but I can speak from the perspective of someone who has studied psychology in TCD like you asked, addiction at postgrad level, psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, and has had a little training in and read NLP (I have a folder on my computer desktop here with 42 NLP books on it).

Btw psychology is not psychotherapy btw, you seem to be confusing this a little, a psychology degree is not a clinical qualification, if you have an interest in being a therapist I would say look at studying psychotherapy as it will take you many years to do a psychology degree, get some experience, then do a postgraduate counselling psychology masters / doctorate or clinical psychology doctorate.

That you consider NLP to have possible applications to psychotherapy is hardly surprising given that it was originally produced by Bandler and Grinder out of studying the communication patterns of therapists such as Fritz Perls, Virginia Satir, and Milton Erickson in their work.

However as soon as they discovered that lots of people were willing to pay good money to do short training in it it became a pure industry. That got worse and worse over the years to the point where the empirical basis of it wasn't even considered relevant to the purpose of making money from trainings and NLP sessions with clients. Mostly it morphed into hypnotherapy with a new pseudoscientific language to make it sound impressive to the layperson.

In answer to your question is it ever mentioned in psychology courses - no it isn't, and it would be considered to have a similar level of validity as phrenology. NLP is not an empirically based subject, and what research has been done on its features has found them to have no basis.

I don't consider that NLP has any additivity to the existing body of knowledge in psychology or to the existing body of techniques in psychotherapy. The kinds of things you listed as being possibly helpful in psychotherapy are not a list you would ever produce if you studied psychotherapy.

The inauthenticity of what you regard as methods of rapport building which NLP could contribute to psychotherapy is so damning and undermining of the essential feature of congruence as a core condition. Other things you suggest for better communication such as being aware of preferred representational systems has been shown by research to have no basis in reality - these preferences don't exist.

Any aspect or technique which exists in NLP which may be of genuine benefit to psychotherapy already exists in psychotherapy. If you have a genuine interest in real therapy and putting the time and effort in to study and train in it then I advise getting some cognitive behavioural therapy books and reading them to see if you can relate to their myriad of techniques. If you are interested in motivating people to change then I suggest reading about motivational interviewing. These are evidentially based change therapies.

You see these are serious topics which are covered by real scientists and real mental health practitioners. There is very little or nothing of true value in NLP which you won't get from a therapeutic modality within the mainstream mental health field.

NLP is not new or misunderstood. It is decades old, its principles and techniques understood and not regarded as an empirically based useful addition to the existing body of knowledge which can lead to evidence based treatments.

If you decide you wish to read some CBT feel free to pm me and I'll recommend texts to you.

I categorically agree on all of the above. But I know where Anthrax is coming from, I took the Bandler/McKenna practitioner course in London some years back. It was interesting, but unsatisfactory and "light-weight". I have spent many years, since then, training to become a Psychotherapist (now in private practice these past three years). In that time and with my knowledge of NLP, I can say that CBT is without doubt the way to go. With the body language study in NLP I have discovered that it is not absolutely correct to say that the client that looks left is lying, very often Clients cannot remember precisely an early childhood event, but have a very distinct 'sense' of what went on, and when recounting their sense during a session will often look left, but are not lying, per se.
Odysseus is correct in every way. If there is spare money for indulgences and one is interested in finding the beginnings of CBT - then NLP is fun. Bandler is a character and an interesting study in himself. McKenna is what he is, and I particularly admire him for his straightforwardness in not attempting to make more of what he is.
Training in hypnotherapy and CBT would be of more benefit, for use clinically. I could not recommend an NLP practitioner to work as a counsellor. It is not safe!

kateof

Orthus,
Do not waste your money on NLP on line. If you absolutely insist on doing the course, then it must be done face to face. Hope this helps.

Torakx

I totally agree an NLP only practitioner should not be doing anything to do with psychotherapy or anything serious at all regarding mental health.
I had first seen it as a tool to aid counselors.
Also the right side of the brain handles visual memory meaning a person accessing visual memory will ussually look to their left.Im about 74% right side dominant and spend alot of time looking left when i consider something,as i am visualizing nearly everything i think.

The thing with NLP is you dont just consider looking one way = lying or i would be suprised if that was the case and not from what i have read myself.
Youre supposed to read the person first and take note of responses to comments and questions noting the way they look and after a while you can build up a map more or less of that persons ques.
I would guess an artistic person,left handed who is asked a question requiring a logical numerical answer when lying might look left instead of right.
Thats why i dont see these nlp seminars or even short courses as a way to helping people.
It should take years of hands on practise to be able to read people well enough..And even then i believe the effects of nlp are temporary unless the client is shown how to reinforce the anchors etc.
And even then i think it is good as a complementary skill to aid a more "serious" role.

Ive been slowly building up a very basic knowledge of different areas of mental health and general functioning of the mind and i am really intrigued lately with the left and right hemispheres.
I dont know if this is normal for most people,but i am able to notice now when my brain switches from alpha(trance) to beta(critical thinking etc) and even vaguely remember it visually afterwards when i switch back to beta.Ussually i spot this when im watching tv because of the tv's effect on the brain its more noticeable.Also i noticed the other night i am much much more comfortable sleeping on my left side or on my back head tilted left.I dont think this is a coincedence with my 74% right brain dominance.
Its all very interesting to me and i would love to combine some kind of reasearch on the left/right brain and nlp with psychology/psychotherapy/CBT etc etc

Im at a stage now where i just hit 30 last week.Im trying to figure out what to study in college(no jobs i am able to get) but i am really interested in so many different areas( and i believe i am very good at motivating people at least online) and its driving me mad trying to find myself a suitable course that will be on a grant(fas can donate E500) or affordable and the biggest worry is do i have to volunteer to get on a course? because i have no experience im a tradesman and im kind of still a nervous person and want to work on that as i learn in college.

I think i asked before about left rght brain areas of study and vaguely remember somebody saying there wasnt really an area that covered that.Maybe that left right brain in relation to peoples habits and traits is already covered in something else.I believe a counselor who has studied and practised nlp could well use the knowledge of wether their client is left or right dominant as a means to communicating with them better or just understanding how they think.It seems this never comes up anywhere in psychology yet that ive read.

hotspur

Torakx wrote: »

I think i asked before about left rght brain areas of study and vaguely remember somebody saying there wasnt really an area that covered that.Maybe that left right brain in relation to peoples habits and traits is already covered in something else.I believe a counselor who has studied and practised nlp could well use the knowledge of wether their client is left or right dominant as a means to communicating with them better or just understanding how they think.It seems this never comes up anywhere in psychology yet that ive read.

I think it was related to you that thinking about the brain and its distributed functions in terms of left and right isn't very helpful.

If you really wish to learn about cognitive neuroscience then these freely available course materials from Berkeley and MIT might interest you:
http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details_new.php?seriesid=2008-D-16072|2008-D-74381&semesterid=2008-D
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/brain-and-cognitive-sciences/9-01-neuroscience-and-behavior-fall-2003/audio-lectures/
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/brain-and-cognitive-sciences/9-14-brain-structure-and-its-origins-spring-2009/

Torakx

Free lectures? hello! and thank you! i will be gobbling these up lol
Maybe this could help me get that basic understanding for free so i can decide what i want to chase after.