Irish speakers a new elite

Lockstep

Irish speakers a social and educational elite -

GRÁINNE FALLER and SÉAN FLYNN

IRISH IS the language of the elite in Ireland with speakers of the language enjoying higher incomes than the rest of the population, according to a controversial new report.

The report, compiled by researchers at the University of Ulster and the University of Limerick (UL), concludes Irish speakers are educated to a higher level and are less likely to be unemployed than people who have no Irish.

The main findings of the research published in the Economic and Social Review include;

- Non-speakers of Irish are twice as likely to be unemployed as their Irish-speaking counterparts;

- 42 per cent of Irish speakers worked in senior professional, managerial or technical jobs, compared to 27 per cent of non-speakers;

- Just 12 per cent of Irish speakers are in semi or unskilled jobs, compared to 20 per cent of non-speakers.

- Irish speakers were also seen to enjoy the advantage of a network of social contacts and all of the perks that go with such a network.

Prof Vani K Borooah of the University of Ulster said: “The strange thing about Irish speakers in Ireland is that many of them never speak Irish and of those that do, only a few speak it with any regularity.

“However, we found that they have a considerable advantage in the labour market.”

The research team used data from the 2006 Census to examine whether Irish conferred any advantage on those who spoke it.

Surprisingly, for a language that is rarely spoken outside of the Gaeltacht, the report found these benefits were significant.

Those who spoke Irish frequently were even more likely to secure a well-paid job , according to the report.

On education, some 25 per cent of Irish speakers hold a degree or a higher qualification, compared to 14 per cent of non-speakers.

Only 9 per cent of Irish speakers had primary or no qualifications, compared to 22 per cent of their non-Irish speaking counterparts.

The report says Gaelscoileanna have played a key role in raising educational attainment among Irish speakers.

It cites the 2009 Irish Times Feeder Schools List where 22 per cent of Gaelscoileanna sent all their Leaving Cert students to third level, compared to a progression average of 7 per cent.

Prof Borooah said Irish speakers in the Republic enjoy considerable social advantages as the language has been embraced by the middle and upper classes in the Republic.

Researchers found Irish speakers in Northern Ireland enjoyed similar employment benefits to their counterparts in the Republic.

In Northern Ireland, he said, learning Irish would generally be an opportunity enjoyed by Catholics at the upper end of the socio-economic scale in Northern Ireland.

He said the study was the first systematic investigation of any advantage enjoyed by Irish speakers on the island of Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0109/1224261977461.html

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

I'd have my suspicions that it might have something to do with the gentrification of the Irish language; it seems very trendy for non-Irish speakers to send their kids to gaelscoils (definetely noticed that when working in schoolbook shops)

rovert

Aka Irish speakers only looking after themselves

bonkey

My immediate reaction is that the piece you've quoted, whatever about the original study, does nothing to address the point that correlation and causation are entirely different things.

It implicitly suggests that knowledge of Irish is a driving factor, but doesn't seem to consider at all that both knowledge of Irish and the other identified factors are driven by something else.

silverharp

I agree with Bonkey, the subset of Irish speakers will most likely come from the ranks of the middle classes in the first instance so there is little cause and effect going on. They might as well do an article on people involved in classical music.

Lockstep

silverharp wrote: »

I agree with Bonkey, the subset of Irish speakers will most likely come from the ranks of the middle classes in the first instance so there is little cause and effect going on. They might as well do an article on people involved in classical music.

Fully agree with this.

fuelinjection

I'm working class. and all the rest.

Irish is not money based or city based. We all have it ...

Ta Gaeilge agat, labhair e mar sin.

AlekSmart

I believe that one of the spin-off benefits of the BoomTime levels of inward migration has been a belated realization that yes,we do actually have some bit of an oul culture of our own left.

Many Irish have only belatedly realized that they are now surrounded by substantial numbers of Eastern Europeans,Orientals and Africans who although living and working in a foreign environment have retained their own languages and who USE them.

This,I feel has led to a belated,yet steady increase in the numbers of folks attempting,perhaps for the first time in their adult lives,to actually use an Irish word or phrase in everyday situations.

I know that in my job,it is now far more common to hear a Slán or "Gurra" mah agut than heretofore and that IS a good thing as it just might indicate an underlying level of self-confidence in our own culture as opposed to the tide of TV led trans-Atlantic mush which had managed to infiltrate every aspect of our lives.

For my own part I always attempt to slip in and expand my working vocabulary wherever possible although this does on occasion lead to some conflict such as being accused by an African lady of deliberately trying to confuse her by speaking a "Foreign" language !!!!!

I`m far from being a Gaélgeoir or even a particular enthusiast of the Irish language,but I believe that one of the basic elements of any potential recovery from the criminally inspired collapse of this country is a recovery of our National Identity and some small degree of Self Confidence.

On a side-note,that inspiration of self-pride and confidence is what National Leadership and Governance SHOULD be all about.

Yet it is THE single most obviously absent element from our current Politico/Social climate.

Nobody really expects Brian Cowen,Noel Dempsey,John Gormley or Willie O Dea to actually appear on their street with a brush and shovel, BUT the Nation does expect these people to display their understanding and grasp of the very real hardship being endured by many citizens.

It is all about Leaders being able to sense,interpret and respond to the Public Mood and to portray to their "People" a sense of hope and something being done.

A collective Political failure to recognise the responsibility of Political Leadership will inevitable lead to the abandonment by the population of respect for the very institutions which democracy depends upon to function.

Personally I would assemble the entire current Cabinet and force them to watch the U-Tube video footage of the last hours of Nicolae and Elena Ceaucescu and then enquire if this had concentrated their minds.

Media Performances such as those delivered by Ministers Gormley and O Dea last week verge on the dangerous and prompt the question,"Do these guy`s not realize how fragile their positions REALLY are at the moment ?" :eek:

Rebelheart

I await the undereducated rabble and their standard fare of bitterness, idiocy and scapegoat searching. Well done, Rovert, for kicking it off.

rovert

Rebelheart wrote: »

I await the undereducated rabble and their standard fare of bitterness, idiocy and scapegoat searching. Well done, Rovert, for kicking it off.

Thanks for proving my point dude. Us vs them, Irish speakers are an in group.

Rebelheart

rovert wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point dude. Us vs them, Irish speakers are an in group.

I'm "them" and I'm "us" so now I'm also lost (apparently). Thanks for disproving your own point.

rovert

Rebelheart wrote: »

I'm "them" and I'm "us" so now I'm also lost (apparently). Thanks for disproving your own point.

Wut?

You are claiming to be a member of the undereducated rabble now?

That reply makes NO sense.

Rebelheart

rovert wrote: »

Wut?

You are claiming to a member of the undereducated rabble now?

That reply makes NO sense.

Er, No; that by your own admission would be you, Rovert.
Just because somebody speaks English doesn't automatically make him/her part of the undereducated rabble; the vast majority of Irish speakers can speak English better than your average English monoglot. But going on a rant against Irish speakers and making up some fallacious "them" versus "us" divide between English speakers and Irish speakers in Ireland, does show a great degree of bitterness, scapegoat seeking and membership of general loserdom.

well, if Irish speakers are a new elite, then they must be a separate group than the rest of us otherwise they wouldn't be an "elite". I'm an Irish speaker, and I must admit I've never felt particularly "elite" about being able to speak the language.. its not as if I have much need for it, except to level the playing field when foreigners speak their own language around me...

Nermal

Hilarious. The research desperately tries to give the impression that speaking Irish is the cause of the disparity, without actually saying so, because that's obviously nonsense.

rovert

Rebelheart wrote: »

Er, No; that by your own admission would be you, Rovert.

Again, you arent making any sense. Your intent to insult is over riding any logical statement here.

Rebelheart wrote: »

Just because somebody speaks English doesn't automatically make him/her part of the undereducated rabble; the vast majority of Irish speakers can speak English better than your average English monoglot. But going on a rant against Irish speakers does show a great degree of bitterness, scapegoat seeking and membership of general loserdom.

What is my rant? Irish people are an in-group. Some rant there.

I’m unsurprised by this hyper sensitive reaction from a poster called Rebelheart btw. :rolleyes:

sceptre

The idiotic "you said, I said" personalising of the argument and low-level trading of insults between the two of you will stop now please:).

/mod

rovert

Is referring to Irish speakers as an in-group that offensive it is the fourth finding of the report? I dont see what was the issue here.

nesf

What a pointless study. Languages most likely to be spoken by teachers in the general population found to be linked to higher education levels a new controversial study finds.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Good to see everyone reaslises the correlation/causation point.

I'm sure any Irish citizen who speaks more than one language fluently would earn more on average/be more likely to have a degree.

cbreeze

kickoutthejams wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0109/1224261977461.html

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

I'd have my suspicions that it might have something to do with the gentrification of the Irish language; it seems very trendy for non-Irish speakers to send their kids to gaelscoils (definetely noticed that when working in schoolbook shops)

Gaelscoils have probably smaller classes, and those who would be sent there would be from families would be more interested in irish culture than say people from other parts of the world, or as a journalist recently put it, from the 'cigire classes'. I think 'cigire' is gaelic for a school inspector. An bhfuil 'thread' as gaeilge sa bhoards ann?!

pippox

AlekSmart wrote: »

but I believe that one of the basic elements of any potential recovery from the criminally inspired collapse of this country is a recovery of our National Identity and some small degree of Self Confidence.

On a side-note,that inspiration of self-pride and confidence is what National Leadership and Governance SHOULD be all about.

Yet it is THE single most obviously absent element from our current Politico/Social climate.

Pride and self confidence don't seem to be in short supply among the governing class.
The public demanding higher standards and accountability are whats really needed for the recovery of Irish society.

nesf

cbreeze wrote: »

I think 'cigire' is gaelic for a school inspector. An bhfuil 'thread' as gaeilge sa bhoards ann?!

It's the Irish for inspector.

There's a forum dedicated to discussion only in Irish here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=904

AJ STYLES

well people who are good at irish tend to do well in leaving cert so maby that is the reason. i cant speak a word of that language btw, im exempt thank you allah lol

nice_guy80

i ouldn't consider many native speakers out in the Gaeltachts to be an elite. in fact most Gaeltacht areas have high unemployment and high migration of young people to cities

however, it is probably true that those in good jobs across the island probably have a reasonable command of the Irish language through their progress through the education system and a minority who need to use the language for their jobs

and having Irish has contributed to them getting these better jobs

Daithinski

I went to an all irish secondary school. The class sizes were large too. It certainly was not full of elites but the school had better than average entry into college. This was not due to the irish speakers looking after each other (as some on this forum would have you believe).

Some theories was that the teachers were more dedicated and actually cared more. And maybe there are other learning advantages in being fluent in two languages from an early age.

Irish speaking schools have a good reputation for their standards of teaching with many parents seeing sending their kids to an irish school as comparable to sending them to a fee paying school (as regards their exam results, entry percentage into college).

You would have to translate higher percentage of students gaining entry to third level courses into better results/prospects in the employment market.

Jeanious

I wonder what they actually classify as an "irish-speaker" though....someone who passed the leaving cert irish for example? Or uses it every day or what?

AJ STYLES

yeah good question, i never ever met a fluent irish speaker in dublin and dublin is where wealth is concentrated

Permabear

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dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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So - no comment in the fact that the classes are smaller allowing for more 1 on 1 time, that bilingual education has been shown to be more beneficial to students, and that teachers in gaelscoilenna tend to be more enthusiastic?

I think you'll find that children in Gaelscoilenna are not higher in social class. They range as much as any other school. Our local gaelscoil is a few prefabs! Some higher social class there.

Permabear

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imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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Who's going to fund these 'smaller class sizes'? DF, I'm surprised! I thought you were an 'everyone look after their own' kinda guy.:D You're in favour of state involvement in education but not medicine.
Only kidding with you DF.

Anyway, back to the OP, no I don't believe Irish speakers are a new elite in Irish society. I don't believe it's trendy for parents to send their kids to gaelscoileannna, I think the majority of parents want their kids to get the best education possible.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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The language is not dead. I use it every day. There is a solid strategic plan to re-introduce it into Irish society over the next 20 years. We get it, you don't like the language - but many of us do, and many of us support it.

sceptre

dlofnep wrote: »

There is a solid strategic plan to re-introduce it into Irish society over the next 20 years.

Does this plan exist in linkable form?

Permabear

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imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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I understand from a previous thread that you're against public healthcare, that's what I was referring to. I don't understand what you mean when you say you want the Teachers' Unions out of education. Are they responsible for the curriculum? Are you pushing private education over public education?

dlofnep

sceptre wrote: »

Does this plan exist in linkable form?

Indeed: http://www.eamonocuiv.ie/images/docs/draft_20_year_strategy.doc

In summary, it intends to place more focus on conversational aspects of the language. It's a good read and looks promising.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, I don't. You made the statement that the language was dead. I provided you evidence that it was not. I'm not sure how I get an F for logic.

Now if you had of said that the language was not widespread as it should be, - I would have agreed with you. But when you use terms like "dead" with intent to get a emotive response, you're not doing the discussion any good.

Bottle_of_Smoke

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think Irish is a pretty hard one to get a high grade in. I think more often than not people do ordinary Irish(which could be passed by many kids in english speaking primary schools) and do another subject at higher level for points. I did that myself actually

nesf

dlofnep wrote: »

Indeed: http://www.eamonocuiv.ie/images/docs/draft_20_year_strategy.doc

In summary, it intends to place more focus on conversational aspects of the language. It's a good read and looks promising.

I think that's the first time I've ever seen you say something positive about something that has a FF hand in it...

sceptre

dlofnep wrote: »

Indeed: http://www.eamonocuiv.ie/images/docs/draft_20_year_strategy.doc

In summary, it intends to place more focus on conversational aspects of the language. It's a good read and looks promising.

Cheers - may be a few days before I get to look at it properly but I'm definitely interested in it.

Permabear

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dlofnep

nesf wrote: »

I think that's the first time I've ever seen you say something positive about something that has a FF hand in it...

Ah now! I don't completely hate everyone in Fianna Fáil. I think the proposals are pretty good in comparison to what was there before.

nesf

dlofnep wrote: »

I think you'll find that children in Gaelscoilenna are not higher in social class. They range as much as any other school. Our local gaelscoil is a few prefabs! Some higher social class there.

Nah it's a Dublin thing. In Dublin Gaelscoilenna similar to Rugby tend to be things attended by the middle class. Outside Dublin both Gaelscoileanne and Rugby are enjoyed by all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds.

nesf

donegalfella wrote: »

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Almost no one raised their kids through Latin though, while quite a few people in this country raise their kids through Irish. Irish isn't a dead language, there are still native speakers around who speak it primarily in the home and retain full fluency in the language. If we reach a stage where this is no longer the case then yes Irish will be dead but as of yet it isn't the case.

Language death is a valid term but it refers to a very specific linguistic concept which does not apply to Irish at this time.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Look - your understanding of a dead language, and my understanding are obviously different. We have various communities which use the Irish language, and then many groups and social gatherings outside of these areas who use it. It's weak right now, but dead isn't an adjective that I would use.

I believe, and I'm up for correction that you throw around words like "dead" just to incite an emotive response. I've read your posts on the Irish language, and you're obviously not a fan of it's support. But the Irish public does support the language on a number of levels.

I'm not interesting it wasting all night on here debating the semantics of the word dead with you.

dlofnep

nesf wrote: »

Nah it's a Dublin thing. In Dublin Gaelscoilenna similar to Rugby tend to be things attended by the middle class. Outside Dublin both Gaelscoileanne and Rugby are enjoyed by all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds.

I'm sure it is. I'm not from Dublin, so I'm not entirely sure how the demographics work there. But here in Waterford, it's most certainly the opposite for sure.

dlofnep

sceptre wrote: »

Cheers - may be a few days before I get to look at it properly but I'm definitely interested in it.

No probs! It's a pretty good read, and it's certainly a positive move in terms of reviving and creating interest in the language.

anonymous_joe

nesf wrote: »

Nah it's a Dublin thing. In Dublin Gaelscoilenna similar to Rugby tend to be things attended by the middle class. Outside Dublin both Gaelscoileanne and Rugby are enjoyed by all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds.

Bingo.

When you look at any of the various league tables relating to academic performance, the best achieving schools tend to be private schools or gaelscoileanna.

In fairness, I went to a fairly posh school, and there were a good few lads in my year who'd gone to an Irish speaking national school. Mostly ones with relatively intellectual Gaeilgeoir types. Architects kids kind of thing.

A lot of posh kids go to gaeilscoilleanna. Hence them doing better than average.

Permabear

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nesf

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I don't. You made the statement that the language was dead. I provided you evidence that it was not. I'm not sure how I get an F for logic.

Strictly speaking you didn't! Language death is about native speakers of the language and their existence. Non-native speakers don't count, that's why Latin is a dead language despite there being a large enough population of people who can read and/or speak it. Only examples of Irish being used as a primary language in the home and children being raised through it count as evidence against language death!

An extinct language is what I think you're thinking about which is a language for which there are no speakers left, native or otherwise.

nesf

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yeah but you called it an "insular dead language" when quite obviously it isn't one. You're the one who brought up linguistic concepts incorrectly here not anyone else. Definitely endangered isn't dead etc.