O2 Wireless only €950 for 3 months

Bosshogg · 09-01-2010 1:18pm #1

€950 for the last 3 months with O2

I'm self employed designing websites and doing photography on weekends. When moving away from Eircon back in April I considered how much allowance do I really need and I was sure that 10 gigs would be plenty. I was right. I don't leech torrents or other such stuff. I don't let windows do auto updates (that's what wrecked my pc last time) My computer is for work and that's it.
My wife has a laptop and uses skype video a couple of hours per week and doss on facebook. I might use her laptop for to watch a bit of rugby online or browse about a bit. And if I did go a bit over the allowance well how much can it hurt? An insulting double? €39.98?

Normally we pay €19.99 per month with a 10gig allowance. This hasn't been a problem, routinely we'd be billed €19.99 and I'm satisfied with the price for the service.

On 19th November 2009 we got billed €208.37. Coincidentally on the night of 19th November 2009 my wife's waters broke and we were having our first baby. So I didn't catch that invoice. Incidentally an invoice from O2 is a small envelope that appears down by the clock and disappears if you don't open it. It's then stored in the little program away from sight that comes with the dongle but that deletes them by default after a week. O2 takes their money direct debit from my credit card. Suffering from a massive dose of new baby brain, I just paid the bottom line and didn't go through the details.

On the 21st of December O2 billed me €586.61. Again new baby at home, up to my eyes and under a lot of pressure and stress trying to catch up with work, christmas coming, visitors from abroad coming to stay, that little yellow envelope down at the clock didn't quite catch my attention. I remember thinking it's just O2 talking their 20quid (as per routine) and dismissed it.

Not until I went to clear off my credit card and the lady at the bank counter told me that to do what I intended I'd need to come accross with an extra 500quid did I start to wonder. It must be a simple clerical error I told her.

"Nope it's a usage bill for €586.61". Mary, the useless (from my point of view) O2 help desk assitant advised me that it's correct and that I'm due to pay 2cents for every extra megabyte over the 10gigs allowed.

How in the name of jaysus did I use 38gigs? Ok so let's say that's factual and it's in the contract. Leave that alone for a second.

10 gigs = €19.99 (1 connection)
+28gigs = €566.62 (enough for 28 more connections)
Total 38GB = 586.61

There is something simply and clearly moraly wrong here. Now before people jump in and say well that's what you got yourself into - I didn't. There is a strong sense of "this can't happen" when you sign up to these things. A sense of our government won't let companies act the b***x with people like this. I have a bill pay mobile with Vodafone for over 12 years now and I have never been given a bill anything like this. And what's with the contracts? Who brings a solicitor with them every time they go shopping? (excluding the spouse of one)

On this pc is a clean install of Win 7. I have CS3 and Visual Studio 2008, an FTP client and CD burning tools and such for my work and that's pretty much it. I don't have any virus or trojans working in the background. My connection hasn't been hi-jacked. And even if I did have all of the above going on, stealing a man's week's wages for 28gigs of data isn't justifiable. It's a bit of electricity for a few radio waves.

When I tried to persue this, Mary the helpdesk assitant was most obstructive. She would not allow me to speak with a supervisor or somebody that would handle this in a legal manor. She would not give me the address of the O2 Head Office. She insisted she was trained to deal with this call, by that I think she meant act like a complete useless bimbo and wait until I went away. She did give me the number to the O2 head office but guess what?.. It was apparently closed due to the snowfall and the number redirected me back to the helpdesk in Limerick where Mary will be happy to take my call and pass another 1/2 hour of the wanton day. So I called back, and I was cut off. So I called again and I was cut off again. And again. And again. And about 10 more times.

Trying to use the O2 website is a nightmare. If you want to spend money, top up, sign up, it works a treat. If you want to access your accounts it's riddled with bugs and hurdles to make it as tedious as possible. Constant "File not secure" alerts, Page Not Found 404, Page access denied 403 warnings and PDF not generating errors.

There is a usage metering tool supplied with your connection. Top line statement = Not to be used for billing purposes. No wonder, it has a massive discrepency between it's count and the count on the bill. Why can't it be used for billing purposes? Why can't the tool update itself from the server every hour / 12 hours / 24 hours like any other simple RSS tool? "Your usage so far is 1.38GB - Your running bill total is €19.99" Woudn't that make sense? To the customer I mean. If I have a ticker on my desktop updating with the latest news alerts why can't an internet company send me an alert "YOU'VE EXCEEDED YOUR ALLOWANCE"?

So where did the 38gigs come from? A movie is about 700mb but we'll say 1gig. So I downloaded 38 movies in 1 month? I don't think I've seen 10 movies in all of 2009 and 4 or 5 of them would be in the Cinema anyway.

November's bill €208.37
December's bill €586.61
Unbilled usage €156.87
Total for the last 3 months (so far) €951.85

Well they won't just walk off with my money that easily. If it were a Taxi I could easily see what's going on, stop it and get out. But these conmen think I'm just going to take the hit while they wave a contract in my face. Well we'll see about that.

Right lads there's enough there to give you the picture. If you have any such experience with O2 please let me know.

I will be taking them to the small claims court for starters. I'd love to find more people in my situation and make a class action out of it. Jaysus if we get Simon Cowell off the number one spot by working together we should be able to get our more important money back.

whippet · 09-01-2010 7:52pm

sign up to O2's forum on their site. The guys on there are usually very helpful and will be able to investigate.

-Corkie- · 09-01-2010 8:03pm

I had a phone with them only for ringin 086 numbers and was 20 euro per month. I decided to cancel it as i was out of contract. The last bill i got included 180 euro for 15mb of data usage which i never used as i have mt own provider. I got the same treatment as above. I never paid it and started getting the usual letters. I got one last week actually saying that they would settle for 50 euro......

Bosshogg · 09-01-2010 8:33pm

whippet wrote: »

sign up to O2's forum on their site. The guys on there are usually very helpful and will be able to investigate.

I'm thinking of copying this post more or less onto their forum when I finally get access to it from the confirmation email that I'm waiting all day to arrive. I presume it's manually checked on their side.

Nody · 09-01-2010 9:19pm

So in summary:

1) You did not read what you signed up for
2) You did not bother to check the bills that where available
3) You had authorized O2 to take the amount on the bills via DD

And now you're:
4) Upset that they charged according to the contract (which is nothing new and not in any way unique to O2)
5) Called O2 once and no, a supervisor can not "handle this in a legal manor" as you put it as quite frankly they would not have any such power to cancel it on the spot because you are unhappy
6) Want to take it to small claims court where it would be thrown out for not having taken the company procedure to it's end

Might I suggest you do something productive instead of posturing on a internet board and write a formal complain letter and send it to O2 specifying your dispute. At least that way you might actually get a resolution to your problem instead of pretending that your case would be the foundation for a class action law suit or something silly.

Oh and I'm not working for, or affiliated with O2 in any way now or previously but you come over as someone who's causing all hell on the phone (and no, speaking to a Supervisor is not your right) which would not help your case in getting it resolved.

jhegarty · 09-01-2010 9:51pm

Did you ask them to breakdown the usage in some way ?

Bosshogg · 09-01-2010 11:40pm

Hi Nody.
Thanks for taking the time to write an objective reply. These companies have found great ways to bend the law so let me respond;

1) I did read what I signed up for but there's 2 points.
1, I'm not a lawyer therefor not qualified to read a 2500 word contract hashed out by business sharks, nor should I need a lawyer to go shopping for a simple service. As consumers the big providers have earned a level of trust from generations of fair play from companies such as the ESB, Bord Gais, old Telecom Eireann/ Eircom and so on. It has become an expectation for the consumer over time that it's a safe place for the average Joe to deal with these monster size companies. You sign up, pay your FAIR dues and all will be fine. I assume this has been tempered over the years by our government from disputes such as this arising over time.
2nd, "2 cents for every extra megabyte" What's a megabyte in Internet usage terms? I'm working with PCs for 12-15 years now and I can't answer that. I watch rugby online. How many megabytes is that? A match? A minute of a Match? How many megabytes does my wife use on Skype? She talks for hours. I haven't the slightest notion! I could investigate it but could the average Joe? So again the humble consumer must make an assumption and put a little trust in the company that they're getting a fair deal and not going to get screwed for their week's wages on the slightest mix up. At least in your house you can see the ESB meter spin and turn off the furness but with these guys you have to crawl through a mine field to get your information. I'd say if you converted a megabyte into milage and you took a taxi driven by O2 then it's about a foot.

2) You're right I didn't check the bills that were available. After the first few bills they had gained my trust and I dismissed the little yellow icon, the smallest possible effort by them to alert me, as "ah that's just O2 looking for their 20quid". I don't feel my internet habits changed so there was no reason for me to assume the bill would either. Also as I mentioned earlier, we've just had our first baby, coincidentally at the time of the first bill, and I can tell you in simple words that doing my job and sitting in front of a PC was the very last thing I wanted to do for the next 6 weeks. When finally I did sit down my work was so backed up that any little thing extra on the TODO list was a burden. Technically though Nody, like the sharks you are correct. If I asked you how much is your ESB bill? Would you have to check the bill or would you answer "about 100-120 each time, maybe a bit more in winter"?

3) I'm not sure I had much if any choice with how I paid. Again more force feeding and having it their way from their side.

4) Yes I am upset that they have charged me according to the contract. In fact initially I was outright furious, later I was depressed. I had the feeling that we had been robbed. It was like someone crept in the window and stole 950 euro of my very hard earned household budget from the cookie jar. There is cause for arguement because Joe Soaps like me are getting sucker punched and robbed of their wages and these sharks are hiding behind a piece of paper. They know that 99.9% of the people will pay up and do nothing about it. I'm in the .1% of the rest.

5) I called O2 more than once, about 10 times over 2 hours I'd say. Mary the useless helpdesk assistant refused to give me any details to handle the matter legally, including the address of the O2 head office. Between her and her supervisor it was a clear attempt at obstruction to wear me out and give up. Several phone calls later with other staff I slowly got more and more information. Including how to escalate it to a complaint, which I tried to do initially but was told by Mary there is nothing more she can do for me as she is trained to handle the situation. Putting it bluntly she simply would not do a dnam thing and yakked me off the phone, or was I cut off? hm? She suggested at one point that my solicitor would know what to do!? Eh like call O2 and ask for the same address? Mary was anything but helpful to say guide me into and through the complaints process, she simply insisted that she was well within her right to take the money. Fair enough, I'm well within my right to fight for it back.

6) As stated in #5, I was trying to escalate the complaint but Mary wouldn't simply saying that everything is correct according to usage and there is nothing more she can do. I will however go to O2 offices on Monday morning in person because they keep cutting me off (accidentally) and escalate the complaint there.

7) I might be rightly called a few things like venting anger, voicing my complaint amongst other victims of white collar scam, alerting other people to the pitfalls of dealing with a faceless company that has a banner on their website "A Company You Can Trust", but I am not "posturing" as you rather insensitively put it. (Don't worry I can take a few digs - but I'll swing back). Overall Nody your objective opinion is helpful. I'm sure the sharks have every sort of answer armed and ready in their book so I'll take this as a small primer.
Calling the class action lawsuit a "someting silly" is disappointing. It might come from growing up in a school class where the teacher knocked the crap out of one kid and all the others were forced/trained to stand there and do nothing and watch the horror of the singled out kid suffering but that's another story. It's an ambitious idea in THIS country but maybe people are feeling the pinch just enough to follow the leader? A petition at least? I dunno maybe as usual the small guy will be left to take the beating on his own. I'm actually not too much in the belief that I'll get my money back from these billionaire scabs no matter what but with the use of the many Internet forums, a specialised blog site, twitter and facebook, radio stations and newspapers and fella's like you Nody putting your 2 cents in maybe, just maybe, I'll take a week's wages out of their pocket and we'll call it even.

€20 for the first 10 gigs and €200 for the next 10 gigs is a con job but they don't put it to you that way instead prefering to give you the ambiguous detail of 2cents per mb. The consumer is clearly mislead. They entice you in and then they empty your pockets. The company is simply not acting responsibly. This can't be allowed to go unchallenged by the public especially since there's no clear and simple way for the consumer to monitor the usage.

Take a look at this link http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/Home/Shop/Broadband/ and look at the banner "O2 mobile broadband. Just €19.99 per month. It's that simple"
Now do me a favour and show me where it's stated 2 cents per extra mb, use a stopwatch.

@jhegarty: Hi J. Here's a sample from my account statement. Notice how it logs on robotically every 2 hours. I can't confirm or deny if I left the PC on over night on these dates but wtf was I downloading? This goes on for days. You'd think I'd know about it right? Also the dongle gets passed around 3 different PCs so if one did have a torjan that got by me I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be on all 3.
16:58 14/12/09 Data 5.94 MB 0.00
18:58 14/12/09 Data 962.0 KB 0.00
19:16 14/12/09 Data 2.0 KB 0.00
19:16 14/12/09 Data 527.38 MB 0.00
21:06 14/12/09 Data 683.64 MB 0.00
23:06 14/12/09 Data 419.95 MB 0.00
00:00 15/12/09 Data 595.74 MB 0.00
01:06 15/12/09 Data 1.05 GB 0.00
03:06 15/12/09 Data 605.5 MB 0.00
05:05 15/12/09 Data 194.95 MB 0.00
09:45 15/12/09 Data 138.43 MB 0.00
10:05 15/12/09 Data 527.38 MB 0.00
11:06 15/12/09 Data 908.25 MB 0.00
13:06 15/12/09 Data 830.13 MB 0.00
15:06 15/12/09 Data 693.4 MB 0.00
17:05 15/12/09 Data 530.46 MB 0.00
19:02 15/12/09 Data 737.0 KB 0.00
21:02 15/12/09 Data 16.0 KB 0.00
22:33 15/12/09 Data 205.09 MB 0.00
23:06 15/12/09 Data 410.18 MB 0.00

Maybe it's an O2 trojan?

Cheer's lads.

Cabaal · 10-01-2010 11:21am

Bosshogg wrote: »

Hi Nody.
Thanks for taking the time to write an objective reply. These companies have found great ways to bend the law so let me respond;

1) I did read what I signed up for but there's 2 points.
1, I'm not a lawyer therefor not qualified to read a 2500 word contract hashed out by business sharks, nor should I need a lawyer to go shopping for a simple service.

Seriously?
This is your defense?
Bill Pay Terms & Conditions say - http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/About+O2/Terms+and+Conditions/O2+Broadband/Billpay+Broadband

7. Data Usage
7.1. Monthly Data Usage limits apply and any usage over the limit applicable to your Service is subject to the then applicable excess charge. Where monthly usage is below the usage limit at the end of the monthly period the difference cannot be carried forward from one billing cycle to the next on any Price Plan.

They also have (for those that like plain English stuff)

Quick Terms & Conditions

* Connection to the O2 Clear Broadband 12 month and 18 month plans are subject to 12 month and 18 month minimum terms respectively.
* The O2 clear 30 day plan is subject to a 30 day notice period and direct debit is required.
* All O2 Broadband Plans have a data usage limit and a charge of 2c per MB applies for all usage in excess of the data usage limit on your plan.
* Data usage while roaming is excluded. When roaming standard data roaming charges will apply including when the service is used in Northern Ireland and the UK.
* Roaming is restricted on connection to O2 broadband and you must contact customer care to avail of roaming.
* Charges apply if you use the O2 Broadband SIM for services other than the O2 Broadband service.
* All charges are inclusive of VAT @ 21%.
* All rates are rounded to the nearest cent for presentation purposes. Click here for a detailed list of all charges.
* If you are an existing O2 Broadband customer you can switch to the O2 Clear Broadband 12 month and 18 month plans when you have completed six months of your existing contract and if you agree to a new minimum term. You cannot move to the O2 Broadband Clear 30 day plan until you have completed your full contract term.
* O2 broadband is subject to network coverage and availability. Broadband Speeds may vary.

I don't see how much clearer O2 could provide this information, its extremely clear

As consumers the big providers have earned a level of trust from generations of fair play from companies such as the ESB, Bord Gais, old Telecom Eireann/ Eircom and so on. It has become an expectation for the consumer over time that it's a safe place for the average Joe to deal with these monster size companies.

You sign up, pay your FAIR dues and all will be fine. I assume this has been tempered over the years by our government from disputes such as this arising over time.

- Assuming stuff is not a defense, would you get a bill pay mobile phone from O2 without reading the Terms & Conditions?
- Would you get a bank loan without reading Terms & Conditions?
No of course you wouldn't you'd be a fool not to read the conditions to such financial commitments.

You are provided with this information for a VERY good reason, if YOU choose not to read it/them then you've nobody to blame but yourself.

2nd, "2 cents for every extra megabyte" What's a megabyte in Internet usage terms? I'm working with PCs for 12-15 years now and I can't answer that. I watch rugby online. How many megabytes is that? A match? A minute of a Match? How many megabytes does my wife use on Skype? She talks for hours. I haven't the slightest notion! I could investigate it but could the average Joe?

Again, seriously?
Your ignorance defense is laughable, we're not talking 10MB over your limit we're talking numerous GB's which for your information work out as 1024MB per GB

Lets put this stuff into something abit simpler, I have experience with the ISP industry and can tell you for a fact that the average joe doesn't even do 10GB per month when they use their internet connection.

As such O2 offer what is viewed as a very reasonable cap for a product that is aimed at average joe's, the very fact you pulled down over 20GB+ puts you outside of the average joe spot and its something you'd be fully aware of.

Most users on ISP's that pull down large amounts of data do so by using stuff like bittorrent or streaming videos for very long periods of time, these are both things you'd be very aware of.

So again the humble consumer must make an assumption and put a little trust in the company that they're getting a fair deal and not going to get screwed for their week's wages on the slightest mix up.

No you don't, you never assume anything especially when it comes to overuse of a service,

At least in your house you can see the ESB meter spin and turn off the furness but with these guys you have to crawl through a mine field to get your information.

and with O2 they give you a usage monitor AND you know if your downloading/streaming something because you've actually completed the actions to do so.

2) You're right I didn't check the bills that were available.

Its good your admitting fault, finally we are getting somewhere

After the first few bills they had gained my trust and I dismissed the little yellow icon, the smallest possible effort by them to alert me, as "ah that's just O2 looking for their 20quid".

Ok we're back to your ignorance as a defense, seriously nobody is going to believe you didn't check your bill because you "gained trust from a large company", you as a consumer has basic responsibility and this includes checking your bills and making sure they are correct.

If you had a mobile phone package that came with say 60free minutes and you used 635 so the mobile provider billed you for the excess would you still complain?

I don't feel my internet habits changed so there was no reason for me to assume the bill would either. Also as I mentioned earlier, we've just had our first baby, coincidentally at the time of the first bill, and I can tell you in simple words that doing my job and sitting in front of a PC was the very last thing I wanted to do for the next 6 weeks.

Fair enough but having your baby is not O2's concern thats your personal life and has nothing to do with them.

When finally I did sit down my work was so backed up that any little thing extra on the TODO list was a burden. Technically though Nody, like the sharks you are correct. If I asked you how much is your ESB bill? Would you have to check the bill or would you answer "about 100-120 each time, maybe a bit more in winter"?

For me I submit meter readings to Bord Gais so I know exactly what my power bill is every two months, if it went up I'd check the reading myself.

The same goes for my internet connection, I run both a usage monitor on my PC and I check my ISP's monitor to ensure I never run into problems

3) I'm not sure I had much if any choice with how I paid. Again more force feeding and having it their way from their side.

They (o2) are entitled to enforce the Terms & Conditions you previously agreed to

4) Yes I am upset that they have charged me according to the contract. In fact initially I was outright furious, later I was depressed. I had the feeling that we had been robbed. It was like someone crept in the window and stole 950 euro of my very hard earned household budget from the cookie jar. There is cause for arguement because Joe Soaps like me are getting sucker punched and robbed of their wages and these sharks are hiding behind a piece of paper. They know that 99.9% of the people will pay up and do nothing about it. I'm in the .1% of the rest.

So if you sign up to a bank loan and just for the hell of it we say they add on a 100e penalty for a missed payment and you missed a payment as you didn't have enough in your account and had no overdraft so they applied this fee, yes you'd be pissed off but this doesn't make the banks actions wrong.

Thing is it would be your fault and the bank in this example has done nothing wrong. If you didn't read the T&C's of the loan or simply accepted them even though you claim you didn't understand them then its 100% your fault.

The same can be said for this case, you claim ignorance as a defense both in relation to understanding their very clear Terms & Conditions and your internet usage.

5) I called O2 more than once, about 10 times over 2 hours I'd say. Mary the useless helpdesk assistant refused to give me any details to handle the matter legally, including the address of the O2 head office.

If your taking legal action then your solicitor should be well able to obtain O2's legal address, if you simply wish to write a complaint then use the address on their website which can be easily seen

O2 Customer Care Centre
McLaughlin Road
National Technology Park
Limerick.

Call center staff will not normally give out details for how people can make legal claims against a complaint, they will only give out basic complaints procedure details which does not include how to make legal claims.

Between her and her supervisor it was a clear attempt at obstruction to wear me out and give up. Several phone calls later with other staff I slowly got more and more information. Including how to escalate it to a complaint, which I tried to do initially but was told by Mary there is nothing more she can do for me as she is trained to handle the situation. Putting it bluntly she simply would not do a dnam thing and yakked me off the phone, or was I cut off? hm?

Given I wasn't party to the calls I don't know what either party said or did so I';m not really going to comment on this.

She suggested at one point that my solicitor would know what to do!? Eh like call O2 and ask for the same address? Mary was anything but helpful to say guide me into and through the complaints process, she simply insisted that she was well within her right to take the money. Fair enough, I'm well within my right to fight for it back.

- imho she's right for not giving an address for legal claims
- She's right in saying charges are valid

6) As stated in #5, I was trying to escalate the complaint but Mary wouldn't simply saying that everything is correct according to usage and there is nothing more she can do. I will however go to O2 offices on Monday morning in person because they keep cutting me off (accidentally) and escalate the complaint there.

You'd likely find as with the vast majority of head offices that nobody will be in that office that can deal with a customer facing issue like yours,

7) I might be rightly called a few things like venting anger, voicing my complaint amongst other victims of white collar scam, alerting other people to the pitfalls of dealing with a faceless company that has a banner on their website "A Company You Can Trust", but I am not "posturing" as you rather insensitively put it. (Don't worry I can take a few digs - but I'll swing back). Overall Nody your objective opinion is helpful. I'm sure the sharks have every sort of answer armed and ready in their book so I'll take this as a small primer.

Again O2 have done nothing wrong, had you posted this on the Broadband forum the vast majority of users would likely confirm the same to you

Calling the class action lawsuit a "someting silly" is disappointing.

Any comments regarding a class action lawsuit are hilarious, class action suits don't exist in Ireland....we are not America

It might come from growing up in a school class where the teacher knocked the crap out of one kid and all the others were forced/trained to stand there and do nothing and watch the horror of the singled out kid suffering but that's another story. It's an ambitious idea in THIS country but maybe people are feeling the pinch just enough to follow the leader? A petition at least? I dunno maybe as usual the small guy will be left to take the beating on his own. I'm actually not too much in the belief that I'll get my money back from these billionaire scabs no matter what but with the use of the many Internet forums, a specialised blog site, twitter and facebook, radio stations and newspapers and fella's like you Nody putting your 2 cents in maybe, just maybe, I'll take a week's wages out of their pocket and we'll call it even.

Ok now your talking nonsense, the company is not assaulting you or bullying you or anything to that affect they are charging you for a service YOU used in-line with the Terms & Condition YOU agreed to.

€20 for the first 10 gigs and €200 for the next 10 gigs is a con job but they don't put it to you that way instead prefering to give you the ambiguous detail of 2cents per mb.

No its not, its actually standard enough without the industry in Ireland to charge for over use....lets see
- Eircom say they'll do it
- Vodafone say they'll do it
- Perlico say they'll do it
- UTV say they'll do it
Need I go on?

You'd trust Eircom as well wouldn't you?

The consumer is clearly mislead.

This is a incorrect statement, you've stated ignorance as your defense....sadly such a defense will not stand up as O2 provide you with the Terms & Conditions which you choose no to read and/or understand.

They entice you in and then they empty your pockets. The company is simply not acting responsibly. This can't be allowed to go unchallenged by the public especially since there's no clear and simple way for the consumer to monitor the usage.

- You sign up to a service
- The service outlines charges
- You overuse the service and are hit with excess use charges
- You complaint because they charge you

How have they not acted responsibly?

Take a look at this link http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/Home/Shop/Broadband/ and look at the banner "O2 mobile broadband. Just €19.99 per month. It's that simple"

Ever hear of Terms & Conditions apply?

bottom of the page clearly shows
O2 Broadband terms & conditions

* Bill pay Terms & Conditions
* Prepay Terms & Conditions

Terms & Conditions apply to basically ever product and/or service you use in a day to day life, if this is going to be your legal defense then you need to stop right now as your going to waste your time and money further.

By your logic because it says just Just €19.99 per month. It's that simple neither the extra charges or contract length apply to you because these are not mentioned :rolleyes:

Now do me a favour and show me where it's stated 2 cents per extra mb, use a stopwatch.

Don't play the fool, you know exactly what a MB is as you've stated yourself your "employed designing websites and doing photography", if you don't know what a MB is then get out of the industry your in.

If you design websites and create graphics you'll understand basic file sizes because you have to as uploading large graphics to a website can slow the loading time, this is very basic stuff.

If you take photos then you'll also understand basic file sizes (such as what a MB is), depending on what type of file format you shoot in you;'d know for example that a RAW file can come in around 10MB.

I've no time for people that act ignorant yet they know this information

ejmaztec · 10-01-2010 1:44pm

Is there an unsecured or hacked wireless network involved in this, because it seems odd that after a string of normal bills, the usage sky-rockets?

Cabaal · 10-01-2010 1:48pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Is there an unsecured or hacked wireless network involved in this, because it seems odd that after a string of normal bills, the usage sky-rockets?

This could only happen if the OP ordered the O2 Wireless Router in which case if he configured it incorrectly somebody could potentially use his connection.

Given he says he switches the O2 connection to three different laptops this would suggest a dongle instead of a router

mcaul · 10-01-2010 2:01pm

OP - Maybe your attitude is all wrong on this. No wonder Customer service won't entertain you if your rant here has been anything to go by.

For some reason your useage has been exceptionally high - surely your first action to to see why the useage was so high and where the blame for this lies.

Was it a trojan, was it some automatic download problem, was your computer hacked, are you on a wireless system etc etc etc.

Some poor girl in O2 has had to deal with your high handed crap yet you have not done the basic checks of where & why the useage was so high.

O2 have simply charged you for downloads that seem to have happened - maybe its a foult of theirs, maybe a fault of yours - get your pc checked by soemone with some knowledge and then approach O2 in a mannerly way and see if they can do something for you. - But first i think an apology to the custoemr service personell in O2 should be given. I've always found themm to be exceptional!

thebaldsoprano · 10-01-2010 2:24pm

OP it might be worth getting in touch with ComReg, and letting the customer service drone know you're doing this should snap them to attention fairly quickly.

They're charging 20 euro per GB over your allowance which is the amount you pay for 10GB and a connection! While it might be common practice it does seem a bit absurd.

10-01-2010 2:26pm

Lets face it lads, the usage was well over and the cost off this was ridiculously expensive.

And the OP won't be the last person for this to happen.

Surely there should be some mechanism's in place so as to alert a user that they will incur these costs.

I would imagine that these are in place on pre-pay midband systems for bandwidth control surely they could be implemented on billpay systems.

Maybe they could integrate the 2, as in if you are on 10G package and if you reach it, you will be alerted by text instantaneously and have choices as to disable connectivity altogether, providing the user the opportunity to realize that they have reached their limit.

I have Dovodo UMR router with sms alerts setup so I can observe what usage I am using, it is very difficult to get an accurate reading from using O2's own website as it doesn't seem to be updated on the fly.

Surely this would be a more sensible approach in managing a line for the User and the for the provider.

Regardless off terms and conditions, 950 euro is a ridiculous price for broadband.

VaPz · 10-01-2010 2:36pm

Are people seriously attacking the op in this thread? Anyone with abit of knowledge about computers knows that 30gb + for 3 months of random browsing cannot be exceeded.

I have a 20gb limit with ntl. My family download tonnes. I have yet to be billed for any extra charges. and im talking about 5 people in the family downloading, and using the internet almost all day.

The thing is, hes being scammed. He didnt infact use all of his allowance, and i doubt any home user could go over a 10gb/month limit.

All the legal BS of him signing up to this / allowing them to DD is terrible. Its simply he is getting over charged. The op did nothing wrong here.

ronkmonster · 10-01-2010 2:40pm

I used 3 mobile broadband on top up for few months. I had the choice of stopping connection once i had met my limit, or keep going and be charged for it.
Does the o2 system offer a similar option?

thebaldsoprano · 10-01-2010 2:56pm

Bosshogg wrote: »

Notice how it logs on robotically every 2 hours

That's more likely to be indicative of their usage metering software than your logon times, however your computer probably was on and downloading during those times. If you can find a virus or a trojan, that'd help your case a lot. I'm not very familiar with windows, but there's probably some free tool available that monitors traffic going in and out of your PC- this'd be a good place to start.

Bosshogg · 10-01-2010 3:13pm

During typing this a string of other posts have come online. I have to dash but I'll get back in a while. Thanks to all for your 2 cents. Oh **** how much is that really? ;;)

Cabaal wrote: »

I've no time for people that act ignorant yet they know this information

Well first I'd have to say thanks for so much time given to respond with such a lengthy response whether I'm acting or just plain am ignorant. I am a bit surprised to find within all those words to find there's nothing you agree with on Joe Soap's side. Having said that I wouldn't want false hope either. But I'm a bit disappointed in the way that you extract points almost taking them out of context rather than comment on the situation as a whole.

One point I don't seem to be able to get accross is that Mary on the helpdesk would not give me any information to escalate a complaint. Simply insisting that there is no reason to take the matter further than her due to how right they are inside the contract you've so well rehashed.
File sizes from my camera are 22mb. Yup I get that. I even wrote an application that'll resize them to about 70kb for preview and 15kb for thumbnails to ftp up and show on my website. But what's 1 mb worth of youtube? When I'm on justin.tv watching rugby how much is that? Or how much allowance do I need to talk on skype for an hour? Do I need less if I just listen and let the other side talk? O2 does provide a counter with a disclaimer on the topline "not for billing purposes" So what's the point of it? It's only counted a mile out on my side compared to theirs.
You said that 10GB is more than enough for most people - I agree. I thought about this before I signed up and figured I would seldom get past 5 GB. That's how it ran for months. I haven't changed my habits, if anything with new baby at home and a house full of foreigners for a while I feel I'm using the internet less but you're dead certain I'm downloading torrents etc. 38Gigs in a month!? That's about 50 movies. Wtf am I to do with those in a month? With foreign visitors in the house there's nearly no TV on since they hardly understand a word of English anyway. Poor playstation didn't know what happened to it.
I did rebuild my PC. During that I do the updates during install. That could be a few gigs. But then why is it over 3 months?
So let's say I did knowingly download the top 50 discs from HMV. And I did knowingly go over by 28Gigs-ish. To be hit with a bill of €560 is still a con job. As cute as you Cabaal and Nody are to pick the bones out of a complaint from me you still wouldn't sit down to work out with your calculator €200 for the next 10gigs. Like me the assumption to figure out at a glance that 2c per mb works out at €20 per 10gb is easy to do with all those zeros and the impression that you're getting a fair deal and a sense that comreg and such wouldn't let the likes of this go on. It's easy to second guess yourself into thinking you did the math wrong. That is them taking advantage of busy people. That is a con.
Now if you want to harp on and on about how I did sign, and I didn't read, and all the responsibility is all and only on me then we won't get much work done here. I'm putting my hand out to be slapped here but... If a kid went into a shop and paid €10 for a lollipop you'd march right back in there and demand the money back straight away and not accept that "you agreed to the price" and "not my fault if you're busy and not paying attention".
I'm sick of these internet companies hiding behind they're contracts with no commitment to the customer. Speeds up to X Megabytes* Fair Usage Policy* Liablility Clause*

It's not ok and not enough to firstly put a line buried in the T&Cs and secondly ambiguous in describing the price. I searched the T&Cs for "cent" but reading your post I see it's in there as 2c. This is not a clear explanation or display of the price be any means. And if you think it is then you've very high expectations of what people understand of these things. Even I as a seasoned professional was caught out in the numbers. A very clever slip of the decimal point in their favour. And I'm sure this very same thing is happening to lots and lots of people that don't see it until something goes wrong. Then they find O2 standing there smuggly with their contract in their hands. Well I don't think trapping people like that is acceptable business practise and it should be challenged because it amounts to nothing less than white collar thievery.
It is quite simply underhanded behaviour and I know you see that. This time it's not to the tune of a few quid but €100's out of one man's pocket.

Cabaal wrote: »

Any comments regarding a class action lawsuit are hilarious, class action suits don't exist in Ireland....we are not America

This again is a very disappointing remark on a couple of levels but I'll let you reconsider it.

Right so here's a couple of questions:
If it was your €950 that they clearly swindled would you just suck it up and pay the bill?
Having read this post would you sign up with O2?

Have I got sour grapes? furkin right I do. Am I gonna lie down and take a whoopin? I might not have any choice, these are big thugs. Like you and Nody the court might think the contract is justice done.
Will I get my money back? Maybe it depends on who I get on the day to deal with the complaint but I wouldn't count on it.
Will it cost O2 more than the €950 they blagged out of me? You'd wanna belief it will. Just on time alone spent dealing with me directly it'll cost them a lot more than that. The fact that anyone reading this post will steer well clear of them but never would I stop here. I must be watching to much rugby online - you hurt me and I'll hurt you back.

I wanted to write more atm but the baby that I mentioned earlier to provide context of how one man's life can be more distracting that a tiny envelope down at the clock has just woken up and started to make rightful demands for food and tlc.

Thanks again for the post Cabaal and all.
I hope we come accross a few people that are in the same boat, they might help you see the other point of view a bit clearer.
"This is not America" - Irish Consumers need to pull together and not let themselves be bullied in this fashion by the big sharks. I haven't yet (weekend) got on to the consumer groups but there weight and organisation needs to be used to defend people from this sort of thing.
Wouldn't you agree?

Cheers!

ejmaztec · 10-01-2010 3:17pm

VaPz wrote: »

Are people seriously attacking the op in this thread? Anyone with abit of knowledge about computers knows that 30gb + for 3 months of random browsing cannot be exceeded.

I have a 20gb limit with ntl. My family download tonnes. I have yet to be billed for any extra charges. and im talking about 5 people in the family downloading, and using the internet almost all day.

The thing is, hes being scammed. He didnt infact use all of his allowance, and i doubt any home user could go over a 10gb/month limit.

All the legal BS of him signing up to this / allowing them to DD is terrible. Its simply he is getting over charged. The op did nothing wrong here.

Only he, his wife and O2 could decide one way or the other on that. No-one else here can possibly know.

drunkmonkey · 10-01-2010 3:56pm

bosshog you can ask the bank to take back any funds paid for by direct debit you did not authorise. you can tell 02 this is what your going to do but explain you'd rather not and would like to agree a fair amount. They may cut you a deal, again be very carefull what u say and stick to the facts as the call could be recorded. Your baby, time of year, foreign visitors etc have nothing got to do with your problem, keep them out of it, it makes you sound a bit crazy. It's very hard to deal with prople when there not being rational, mary in o2 knows this as well as anyone. I don't know how you can prove the way 02 check your usage is correct, agree the out of bundle usage cost is crazy & anti consumer, if 10 gigs is 20 euro then 20 gigs should be 40 euro and so on and so forth. Best of luck with it, keep the cool & a level head.

foggy_lad · 10-01-2010 4:18pm

this usage seems very suspicious unless the op ws up all night downloading stuff? it may be that your account has become mixed up with another account as o2's systems are plaqued with bugs and glitches and numerous billing issues have been reported in the past.

16:58 14/12/09 Data 5.94 MB 0.00
18:58 14/12/09 Data 962.0 KB 0.00
19:16 14/12/09 Data 2.0 KB 0.00
19:16 14/12/09 Data 527.38 MB 0.00
21:06 14/12/09 Data 683.64 MB 0.00
23:06 14/12/09 Data 419.95 MB 0.00
00:00 15/12/09 Data 595.74 MB 0.00
01:06 15/12/09 Data 1.05 GB 0.00
03:06 15/12/09 Data 605.5 MB 0.00
05:05 15/12/09 Data 194.95 MB 0.00
09:45 15/12/09 Data 138.43 MB 0.00
10:05 15/12/09 Data 527.38 MB 0.00
11:06 15/12/09 Data 908.25 MB 0.00
13:06 15/12/09 Data 830.13 MB 0.00
15:06 15/12/09 Data 693.4 MB 0.00
17:05 15/12/09 Data 530.46 MB 0.00
19:02 15/12/09 Data 737.0 KB 0.00
21:02 15/12/09 Data 16.0 KB 0.00
22:33 15/12/09 Data 205.09 MB 0.00
23:06 15/12/09 Data 410.18 MB 0.00

o2 should be able to provide details of sites that you have visited at these times but they may well treat your telephone requests as simple feedback? so your best course of action at this stage is a "formal complaint" in writing!

you must use the heading "formal complaint" or they may not treat it as a complaint but as feedback!

drunkmonkey · 10-01-2010 4:52pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

o2 should be able to provide details of sites that you have visited at these times

I don't think they can, I could be wrong though, but I thought there were some data protection laws covering this. Your browsing history should tell you as well if it's not deleted. If it wasn't it could be a good place to back up the claim the billing system is wrong..

Cabaal · 10-01-2010 5:13pm

VaPz wrote: »

Are people seriously attacking the op in this thread? Anyone with abit of knowledge about computers knows that 30gb + for 3 months of random browsing cannot be exceeded.

But as the OP says he designs websites, depending on what he's doing this would require a fair bit of uploading/downloading.

In addition we don't know what other downloads the OP has done

I have a 20gb limit with ntl. My family download tonnes. I have yet to be billed for any extra charges. and im talking about 5 people in the family downloading, and using the internet almost all day.

NTL don't charge for over-use, NTL allow upto over 100GB before they'll even contact you.

The thing is, hes being scammed. He didnt infact use all of his allowance, and i doubt any home user could go over a 10gb/month limit.

Plenty of people on the Broadband forum could state otherwise, while the average user from the ISP's point of view will not normally use over 10GB.

Its extremely easy to use 10GB, 40GB, 80GB...hell even upto 1TB on a Home Broadband connection. A percentage of home users will exceed 50GB+ on a monthly basis depending on what they download

The op did nothing wrong here.

Howe exactly have you come to this conclusion?

bigjohnny80 · 10-01-2010 5:25pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

bosshog you can ask the bank to take back any funds paid for by direct debit you did not authorise.

No he can't. He has already authorised it by signing and agreeing to the terms and conditions of the contract which basically state that he is authorising variable deductions from his bank account.

VaPz · 10-01-2010 5:40pm

Cabaal wrote: »

But as the OP says he designs websites, depending on what he's doing this would require a fair bit of uploading/downloading.

In addition we don't know what other downloads the OP has done

NTL don't charge for over-use, NTL allow upto over 100GB before they'll even contact you.

Plenty of people on the Broadband forum could state otherwise, while the average user from the ISP's point of view will not normally use over 10GB.

Its extremely easy to use 10GB, 40GB, 80GB...hell even upto 1TB on a Home Broadband connection. A percentage of home users will exceed 50GB+ on a monthly basis depending on what they download

Howe exactly have you come to this conclusion?

If we stop all generalisations of "he could download x amount or that". And we actually stop to read the post he doesnt download much. Uploads for a website are tiny.

Im quite disappointed that this has turned into a "General" thing. He COULD download x amount. He COULD upload 150gbs worth of stuff. However
judging by the op ( which is the thread about him and no one else btw ) He hasnt met the criteria of being over 10gb. Were here to talk about HIM being ripped off.This has gone drastically off topic in my eyes. If you dont believe his words, dont post.

However of course, thats just my take on things.

Cabaal · 10-01-2010 5:43pm

Bosshogg wrote: »

One point I don't seem to be able to get accross is that Mary on the helpdesk would not give me any information to escalate a complaint. Simply insisting that there is no reason to take the matter further than her due to how right they are inside the contract you've so well rehashed.

Fair enough, however thats a customer service issue only and the fact that an agent in O2 wouldn't give you certain details is a seperate part of your complaint to the billing.

- The over-usage charge is a billing issue and account issue
- The staff member not complying with your request is a customer service issue

File sizes from my camera are 22mb. Yup I get that. I even wrote an application that'll resize them to about 70kb for preview and 15kb for thumbnails to ftp up and show on my website.

Ok so you understand file sizes then thats all we need to now

But what's 1 mb worth of youtube? When I'm on justin.tv watching rugby how much is that? Or how much allowance do I need to talk on skype for an hour? Do I need less if I just listen and let the other side talk? O2 does provide a counter with a disclaimer on the topline "not for billing purposes" So what's the point of it? It's only counted a mile out on my side compared to theirs.

Depending on thw quality of the stream your watching it could be in excess of 200MB an hour for video but it depends on the quality.

Given we know your streaming video of matches etc then we know your not just "browsing websites", this would hint towards how you exceeded your 10GB usage.

You said that 10GB is more than enough for most people - I agree. I thought about this before I signed up and figured I would seldom get past 5 GB. That's how it ran for months. I haven't changed my habits, if anything with new baby at home and a house full of foreigners for a while I feel I'm using the internet less but you're dead certain I'm downloading torrents etc. 38Gigs in a month!? That's about 50 movies. Wtf am I to do with those in a month? With foreign visitors in the house there's nearly no TV on since they hardly understand a word of English anyway. Poor playstation didn't know what happened to it.

Well lets see, if your downloading warez
- Lower quality can be 700MB
- Standard movie can be 1.4GB each
- 720 HD could be about 4.5GB
- 1080 would in excess of 7GB

You must also remember that with bittorrent if your using it this downloads AND uploads at the same time.O2's 10GB is for usage it does not specify if its download ONLY.

So if you download 5GB of torrents and seed these to 1:1 then you've hit 10GB easy.

I did rebuild my PC. During that I do the updates during install. That could be a few gigs. But then why is it over 3 months?

I couldn't tell you, its your connection only you know what you used it for.

So let's say I did knowingly download the top 50 discs from HMV. And I did knowingly go over by 28Gigs-ish. To be hit with a bill of €560 is still a con job

In your view it is, in the eyes of the service provider they are simply charging you for a service you have used.

Lets remember that bandwidth is not free, doesn't matter if you downloaded legal downloads, illegal downloads or Linux ISO's, if you exceeded the usage cap then the charges are valid.

As cute as you Cabaal and Nody are to pick the bones out of a complaint from me you still wouldn't sit down to work out with your calculator €200 for the next 10gigs. Like me the assumption to figure out at a glance that 2c per mb works out at €20 per 10gb is easy to do with all those zeros and the impression that you're getting a fair deal and a sense that comreg and such wouldn't let the likes of this go on. It's easy to second guess yourself into thinking you did the math wrong. That is them taking advantage of busy people. That is a con.

0.02c per MB works out at 20.48 per 1GB, NOT 20e per 10GB.

Now if you want to harp on and on about how I did sign, and I didn't read, and all the responsibility is all and only on me then we won't get much work done here. I'm putting my hand out to be slapped here but... If a kid went into a shop and paid €10 for a lollipop you'd march right back in there and demand the money back straight away and not accept that "you agreed to the price" and "not my fault if you're busy and not paying attention".

In your example above the shop would be under NO legal obligation to give a refund, ion much the same way as if you bought a CD for 50e in one shop and it was 10e in another the shop that charged 50e would not have to give a refund.

Don't believe? Check with consumer rights

I'm sick of these internet companies hiding behind they're contracts with no commitment to the customer. Speeds up to X Megabytes* Fair Usage Policy* Liablility Clause*

They have a commitment,
They provide the service for a fee, this service has attached T&C's which you agree upon accepting the service. They have commitments in the T&C's so do you.

The problem is in your case is because you'#ve been caught out you don't wish to fullfill your commitments under the T&C's.

It's not ok and not enough to firstly put a line buried in the T&Cs and secondly ambiguous in describing the price. I searched the T&Cs for "cent" but reading your post I see it's in there as 2c. This is not a clear explanation or display of the price be any means.

You are kidding me right?
Ok lets use this, You posted this link earlier
http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/Home/Shop/Broadband/

Now, click on Buy Bill Pay Broadband
scroll down and click on
View quick terms & conditions

Quick Terms & Conditions

* Connection to the O2 Clear Broadband 12 month and 18 month plans are subject to 12 month and 18 month minimum terms respectively.
* The O2 clear 30 day plan is subject to a 30 day notice period and direct debit is required.
* All O2 Broadband Plans have a data usage limit and a charge of 2c per MB applies for all usage in excess of the data usage limit on your plan.
* Data usage while roaming is excluded. When roaming standard data roaming charges will apply including when the service is used in Northern Ireland and the UK.
* Roaming is restricted on connection to O2 broadband and you must contact customer care to avail of roaming.
* Charges apply if you use the O2 Broadband SIM for services other than the O2 Broadband service.
* All charges are inclusive of VAT @ 21%.
* All rates are rounded to the nearest cent for presentation purposes. Click here for a detailed list of all charges.
* If you are an existing O2 Broadband customer you can switch to the O2 Clear Broadband 12 month and 18 month plans when you have completed six months of your existing contract and if you agree to a new minimum term. You cannot move to the O2 Broadband Clear 30 day plan until you have completed your full contract term.
* O2 broadband is subject to network coverage and availability. Broadband Speeds may vary.

O2 could not provide the Terms & Conditions in a clearer manner then this, its in plain english.Its not hidden or hard to understand.

To be perfectly honest O2 is the very ISP I've seen in the UK or Ireland that posts a quick breakdown of its Terms & Conditions in this manner.

And if you think it is then you've very high expectations of what people understand of these things. Even I as a seasoned professional was caught out in the numbers. A very clever slip of the decimal point in their favour. And I'm sure this very same thing is happening to lots and lots of people that don't see it until something goes wrong. Then they find O2 standing there smuggly with their contract in their hands. Well I don't think trapping people like that is acceptable business practise and it should be challenged because it amounts to nothing less than white collar thievery.
It is quite simply underhanded behaviour and I know you see that. This time it's not to the tune of a few quid but €100's out of one man's pocket.

So its all fine and well for you not to meet your commitments under O2's Terms & Conditions but if O2 didn't provide you with the service in-line with their Terms & Conditions they'd be hell to pay from you complaining about it.

You can't pick and choose parts of a Terms & Conditions, its either all or nothing and if you don't agree with the Terms then you shouldn't have accepted them.

This again is a very disappointing remark on a couple of levels but I'll let you reconsider it.

Right you can be disappointed by my remarks all you want but class action suits DO NOT exist in Ireland so you ranting on about them means nothing

Right so here's a couple of questions:
If it was your €950 that they clearly swindled would you just suck it up and pay the bill?
Having read this post would you sign up with O2?

First of lets talk facts, O2 have done nothing illegal so saying they swindled you out of this money is misleading.

Would I use O2's services, yes I would like any "Mobile Broadband" provider O2 like Meteor, Three or Vodafone reserve the right to charge for excessive usage.

On the basis that I understand this very basic fact I would use services belong to any of the above providers if I had to.

If however I used say 15GB on a 10GB package and I got charged then I only have myself to blame, I'd be annoyed with myself but I'd learn from it and move on and watch my usage in future

Have I got sour grapes? furkin right I do. Am I gonna lie down and take a whoopin? I might not have any choice, these are big thugs. Like you and Nody the court might think the contract is justice done.

So rather then take personal responsibility you want to challenge it, fair enough youy are entitled to.

You have two options
- Small claims court
- Get a solicitor and got to court....good luck with this option :rolleyes:

Will I get my money back? Maybe it depends on who I get on the day to deal with the complaint but I wouldn't count on it.
Will it cost O2 more than the €950 they blagged out of me? You'd wanna belief it will. Just on time alone spent dealing with me directly it'll cost them a lot more than that. The fact that anyone reading this post will steer well clear of them but never would I stop here. I must be watching to much rugby online - you hurt me and I'll hurt you back.

Your belief that people will stay away from O2 is misguided, they most you';ll get O2 to do is perhaps reduce your bill.

I hope we come accross a few people that are in the same boat, they might help you see the other point of view a bit clearer.
"This is not America" - Irish Consumers need to pull together and not let themselves be bullied in this fashion by the big sharks. I haven't yet (weekend) got on to the consumer groups but there weight and organisation needs to be used to defend people from this sort of thing.
Wouldn't you agree?

*if* a company is doing something wrong then consumers have every right to challenge it.

In your case however its equal to a mobile phone company charging you for phone calls you made and then you complain about it.....pointless complaint.

Cabaal · 10-01-2010 5:44pm

VaPz wrote: »

If we stop all generalisations of "he could download x amount or that". And we actually stop to read the post he doesnt download much. Uploads for a website are tiny.

VaPz really?
He's admitting to streaming rugby online this is not just browsing websites

Also O2 charge for "usage" this includes uploads and downloads so it all counts

smellslikeshoes · 10-01-2010 5:45pm

VaPz wrote: »

Are people seriously attacking the op in this thread? Anyone with abit of knowledge about computers knows that 30gb + for 3 months of random browsing cannot be exceeded.

I have a 20gb limit with ntl. My family download tonnes. I have yet to be billed for any extra charges. and im talking about 5 people in the family downloading, and using the internet almost all day.

The thing is, hes being scammed. He didnt infact use all of his allowance, and i doubt any home user could go over a 10gb/month limit.

All the legal BS of him signing up to this / allowing them to DD is terrible. Its simply he is getting over charged. The op did nothing wrong here.

Completely different kettle of fish. Mobile internet companies are very different than fixed line companies like UPC and are much much stricter on bandwidth allowances. Fact is if you're family really download tonnes as you say UPC probably just haven't charged you rather than you not going over your limit. Personally I can get through 20GB in a week.

TO OP
This is all on you to be honest, you signed the contract without knowing the complete details and you went over the limit. You haven't a legal leg to stand on.

Your best bet would be to try to come to some arrangement with O2, there have been cases where companies have been very understanding to customers in this situation. They might end up knocking some of the cost off.

Nonoperational · 10-01-2010 5:59pm

VaPz wrote: »

Are people seriously attacking the op in this thread? Anyone with abit of knowledge about computers knows that 30gb + for 3 months of random browsing cannot be exceeded.

I have a 20gb limit with ntl. My family download tonnes. I have yet to be billed for any extra charges. and im talking about 5 people in the family downloading, and using the internet almost all day.

The thing is, hes being scammed. He didnt infact use all of his allowance, and i doubt any home user could go over a 10gb/month limit.

All the legal BS of him signing up to this / allowing them to DD is terrible. Its simply he is getting over charged. The op did nothing wrong here.

Ah would you cop on. If they download "loads" you will go over 20GB. 20GB is very little if you download any movies. Maybe they don't enforce a cap and thats a different story.

Just as a matter of interest what NTL package has a cap of 20GB?

I feel sorry for the OP if there is a mistake here but to be honest it's very unlikely for it to happen two months in a row. If there is no mistake then it is not O2's fault or problem. If there is a virus/trojan it is still not O2's problem.

VaPz · 10-01-2010 6:01pm

Cabaal wrote: »

VaPz really?
He's admitting to streaming rugby online this is not just browsing websites

Also O2 charge for "usage" this includes uploads and downloads so it all counts

Im not gonna comment anymore, as we both have our ideas of "home use". And neither of us can be fully right. Only thing we can do is respect others opinions.

Just trying to be a little more active on boards, maybe it doesnt suit me :P

Edit: i assumed i had a 20gb allowance, its unlimited :P. My mistake.

Bosshogg · 10-01-2010 6:07pm

Hi Guys. Sorry about the mad long posts but I'm trying to respond to all a little as best I can.

ejmaztec wrote: »

Is there an unsecured or hacked wireless network involved in this, because it seems odd that after a string of normal bills, the usage sky-rockets?

Cabaal wrote: »

This could only happen if the OP ordered the O2 Wireless Router in which case if he configured it incorrectly somebody could potentially use his connection.

Cabaal wrote: »

Given he says he switches the O2 connection to three different laptops this would suggest a dongle instead of a router

Yup working off a dongle. Looks a lot like any other USB memory stick for those that don’t know. (Dongle is an odd word)

mcaul wrote: »

OP - Maybe your attitude is all wrong on this. No wonder Customer service won't entertain you if your rant here has been anything to go by.

mcaul wrote: »

For some reason your useage has been exceptionally high - surely your first action to to see why the useage was so high and where the blame for this lies.

At first I thought it was a simple clerical error. No harm done, someone made a typo, it happens, just gimme my few quid back. Only after dealing with Mary the help desk lady that acted with the attitude of a bouncer outside a cheap nightclub “nope you’re not getting in tonight bud” did I start to become frustrated. “I’m right and there’s nothing getting done about it here bud”. We’ve all seen this stone-wall behaviour at some point along our way, heck they even gave it a name “stone walling”. That and the fact that I realised it’s more than a clerical error and they're doing a runner with my money.

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

OP it might be worth getting in touch with ComReg, and letting the customer service drone know you're doing this should snap them to attention fairly quickly.

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

They're charging 20 euro per GB over your allowance which is the amount you pay for 10GB and a connection! While it might be common practice it does seem a bit absurd.

Comreg is on the Monday morning calls list along side consumer affairs. I’m not expecting much from either. I mean really how could ComReg let this happen in the first place?!

NoDrama wrote: »

Lets face it lads, the usage was well over and the cost off this was ridiculously expensive.

NoDrama wrote: »

And the OP won't be the last person for this to happen.

Regardless off terms and conditions, 950 euro is a ridiculous price for broadband.

That’s more so my point. We shouldn’t let this continue. Anyone of you peeps could be next, maybe not with O2 but if the general practise is allowed to continue then someone else will hit you with it. You might get your money back but why all the stress?

VaPz wrote: »

The op did nothing wrong here.

Thanks for the moral support.

ronkmonster wrote: »

I used 3 mobile broadband on top up for few months. I had the choice of stopping connection once i had met my limit, or keep going and be charged for it.

ronkmonster wrote: »

Does the o2 system offer a similar option?

No. And they’re not open and abundantly clear about what happens either.
(Btw Digiweb slash your connection speed when you go over and deduct your over usage from next month but they don’t bill you or cut you off.)

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

there's probably some free tool available that monitors traffic going in and out of your PC- this'd be a good place to start.

I’m using next door’s Eircom connection now. The O2 dongle is unplugged now. When my wife next uses skype she’ll use the dongle and we’ll use O2’s records to see what it uses.

ejmaztec wrote: »

Only he, his wife and O2 could decide one way or the other on that.

I wish we did! But even if using Skype and watching rugby does use 38Gb we’re still left with the problem of the price charged.

foggy_lad wrote: »

o2's systems are plaqued with bugs and glitches and numerous billing issues have been reported in the past.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Oh please go on...? Any examples?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think they can, I could be wrong though, but I thought there were some data protection laws covering this. Your browsing history should tell you as well if it's not deleted. If it wasn't it could be a good place to back up the claim the billing system is wrong..

All of these investigations are a nice idea but how would it pan out? Would I bring my laptop to O2 and say there ya go have a look at the browsing history? I can’t see that happening. It’s a bit more like there word against mine. But I’ll say this, the O2 counter on my PC is a mile off compared to their counter...but they do say mine is NOT for billing purposes!

drunkmonkey wrote: »

bosshog you can ask the bank to take back any funds paid for by direct debit you did not authorise.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

you can tell 02 this is what your going to do but explain you'd rather not and would like to agree a fair amount. They may cut you a deal, again be very careful what u say and stick to the facts as the call could be recorded.

Your baby, time of year, foreign visitors etc have nothing got to do with your problem, keep them out of it, it makes you sound a bit crazy.

Don’t think I can instruct the bank to pull back my money because I authorized O2 to take varying amounts each month.

I hope I didn’t come across as (too) crazy in my post. Mentioning the new baby etc was just to provide some context of how even a seasoned computer user can in just one of a million ways be distracted from the little small envelope that is your billing notice. More used in context of the forum among peers. By the way if you don’t open the little yellow envelope, it disappears into oblivion on reboot. They made it so easy to forget about it.

VaPz wrote: »

Im quite disappointed that this has turned into a "General" thing. He COULD download x amount. He COULD upload 150gbs worth of stuff. However
judging by the op ( which is the thread about him and no one else btw ) He hasnt met the criteria of being over 10gb. Were here to talk about HIM being ripped off.This has gone drastically off topic in my eyes. If you dont believe his words, dont post.

However of course, thats just my take on things.

Hey VaPz thanks for the sensitive consideration. My nuts are well kicked in. It’s a nice contrast to words like “laughable” being thrown at me but I just think that’s also a useful primer and nothing compared to what the sharks will do if this gets to a courtroom. I also wouldn’t want to stifle any opinions because people are concerning themselves about being politically correct.
I could possibly have transferred 38gb – I don’t know what it takes to watch a few rugby matches on Justin.tv. I do upload to my own site zips of upto 500mb but that would be the largest and 4 in a month would be the most.

Right so let’s look at a few facts. I did sign the contract and they’re sticking to it perfectly. But here’s the real problem...

8 bits to a byte, 1024 bytes to a kB, (I can actually count in binary but let’s keep it simple), 1000000 bytes in a megabyte. How many bytes in a Gb anyone? 1000000000 bytes in a gigabyte therefore 10Gb is 10000000000. So if you want to find out how much more you are charged for every Gb over you are you have to multiply 1000000 by .02 and then multiply the answer by 10000.
Is this right? Could someone check this for me? I want to use it as an argument.

Now if I start off with 10GB = €19.99 then how much will 1 Mb cost me? I just don’t even have to try I can see the 10 from 10GB and I can see the 20 from €19.99 so I know there’s a 2 or a .2 or a .02 in the answer.

So does anyone see the real problem here? Could anyone here realistically be bothered to tell me how much 1 mb would cost? With all them zeros it’s real easy for the decimal point to slip one place now isn’t it?! So anyone see the sucker punch coming yet?.. 2 cents for a megabyte sure isn’t that the same as €20 for 10GB?

That for me lads is the con. And with that shameful white collar blag they want to rob my wages.

Now contract or now contract, justice is fairness. This isn’t fairplay. If a court delivers justice then there is some hope for my fight.
Honestly I think my best chance for a outcome is to start some fires like this about the place and make them want to shut me up.

Cheers lads for the 2 cents worth.
(yis all owe me 200 euro worth now)

smellslikeshoes · 10-01-2010 6:13pm

VaPz wrote: »

Im not gonna comment anymore, as we both have our ideas of "home use". And neither of us can be fully right. Only thing we can do is respect others opinions.

Agreeing to disagree is at odds with what you have previously said

VaPz wrote: »

Anyone with abit of knowledge about computers knows that 30gb + for 3 months of random browsing cannot be exceeded.

People will respect your opinion more if you don't imply they know nothing about computers if they disagree with you.

TheIrishGrover · 10-01-2010 6:18pm

Bosshogg wrote: »

Cheers lads for the 2 cents worth.
(yis all owe me 200 euro worth now)

Now you're charging them for giving their 2 cents worth instead of them chrging you? Yer not gonna pay your bill that way

Seriously though, some fecking bill. Any reason you went with the mobile route? Actually, looking at their site. Do you use the dongle for your phone, text etc? Cos they charge extra for that it seems:

http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/myconnect/O2/More+info/O2+Clear+Broadband+Other+Charges?lbW=590&lbH=400

ronkmonster · 10-01-2010 6:25pm

VaPz wrote: »

Edit: i assumed i had a 20gb allowance, its unlimited :P. My mistake.

NTL unlimited is really 250GB cap, over that continuosly and they move you to 80€ per month

foggy_lad · 10-01-2010 6:37pm

ok you could possibly make a claim that o2 have not reasonably enabled you to check your balance because their software does not tally with the online balance but there are other monitering software out there which you as a web designer should be aware of,

as for the examples of billing glitches with o2 just check out their own forums and it is clear enough.

have you written a letter yet? comreg and the consumer agency can do nothing untill you have written to o2 and made a "formal complaint" you must then give o2 time usually 10days to respond to your complaint before ComReg can get involved.

when your viewing habits are broken down a bit more it becomes more likely that you have accrued these charges from watching online rugby and movies etc and other tv programming and the unusual timing of the downloads could be explained by your pc downloading from some type of RSS feed overnight(when download speeds are usually much higher) and allowing you to watch the downloaded content the next day.

as for the excess charges while it can be claimed they are unfair and almost criminal to ask 2cent/kb the simple answer is that these charges are not criminal(yet) and you have been advised of them at the time you signed up and also the charges are readily and easily accessible on the o2 website so you can not reasonably claim ignorance of them!

edit: i usually use approx 8Gb/month but never download movies rugby and dont stream movies etc. your streaming habits are probably to blame for this high usage charge?

randomer · 10-01-2010 6:38pm

What is the difference between a mobile broadband connection and a mobile phone? Personally I see them as being more or less the same. With my mobile, if I exceed my minutes I pay for all additional calls. Why should this be any different for mobile broadband users?

There is a big difference between mobile broadband and fixed line or cable broadband. The number of users online in a given area has a much greater effect for mobile broadband that it does for fixed line or cable broadband. As far as I understand the cap is designed to prevent users from monopolising the connection in a given area and affecting other users.

However, on a more positive note. If you put your case to the company, and are a little more "I understand I did wrong, but I didn't realise what I was doing" I am sure you will be able to get a partial refund, maybe 50%? If you take a more aggresive approach I think you will get no where.

Cabaal · 10-01-2010 6:59pm

Bosshogg wrote: »

Right so let’s look at a few facts. I did sign the contract and they’re sticking to it perfectly. But here’s the real problem...

8 bits to a byte, 1024 bytes to a kB, (I can actually count in binary but let’s keep it simple), 1000000 bytes in a megabyte. How many bytes in a Gb anyone?

Why are you even getting into kb?
O2 clearly charge 2c per MB not kb

1000000000 bytes in a gigabyte therefore 10Gb is 10000000000. So if you want to find out how much more you are charged for every Gb over you are you have to multiply 1000000 by .02 and then multiply the answer by 10000.

1024MB in a GB for a start
So 1MB is charged at 0.02c = 20.48c per GB

Now if I start off with 10GB = €19.99 then how much will 1 Mb cost me? I just don’t even have to try I can see the 10 from 10GB and I can see the 20 from €19.99 so I know there’s a 2 or a .2 or a .02 in the answer.

1MB is 0.02c
The 10GB cap was part of the 19.99e package excess is charged at 0.02c,
You can't try and work out some new system to suit your needs.

Fact is 1MB is 0.02c so 1GB is 20.48c

So does anyone see the real problem here? Could anyone here realistically be bothered to tell me how much 1 mb would cost? With all them zeros it’s real easy for the decimal point to slip one place now isn’t it?! So anyone see the sucker punch coming yet?.. 2 cents for a megabyte sure isn’t that the same as €20 for 10GB?

I don't know what crazy months you use but 1GB is 20.48c,

Now contract or now contract, justice is fairness. This isn’t fairplay. If a court delivers justice then there is some hope for my fight.
Honestly I think my best chance for a outcome is to start some fires like this about the place and make them want to shut me up.

Its not a con, its not illegal, its nothing dodgy.....these charges are pretty much standard among "Mobile Broadband" in Ireland

Vodafone Ireland says

A monthly data download allowance of 10 gigabytes (GB) applies. Usage in excess of 10GB per month is charged at 2c (VAT Inc.) per megabyte.

Meteor has similar information...their site is down for mainatnce at the moment though so I can't copy/past it

foggy_lad wrote: »

as for the excess charges while it can be claimed they are unfair and almost criminal to ask 2cent/kb the simple answer is that these charges are not criminal(yet) and you have been advised of them at the time you signed up and also the charges are readily and easily accessible on the o2 website so you can not reasonably claim ignorance of them!

O2 do not charge 2c per kb, they charge 2c per MB

All O2 Broadband Plans have a data usage limit and a charge of 2c per MB applies for all usage in excess of the data usage limit on your plan.

[/QUOTE]

Cabaal · 10-01-2010 7:06pm

randomer wrote: »

What is the difference between a mobile broadband connection and a mobile phone? Personally I see them as being more or less the same.

Thats because they are, data transfers on a mobile network are more costly then that of a cable or ADSL network. A mobile network was never really meant for a replacement of cable or ADSL.

With my mobile, if I exceed my minutes I pay for all additional calls. Why should this be any different for mobile broadband users?

It isn't really

I'm on Meteor Bill Pay Lite and I pay a flat fee for 60min worth of any network min and free meteor texts, I fully understand that I will incur call charges once I go outside of these free min

There is a big difference between mobile broadband and fixed line or cable broadband. The number of users online in a given area has a much greater effect for mobile broadband that it does for fixed line or cable broadband. As far as I understand the cap is designed to prevent users from monopolising the connection in a given area and affecting other users.

Thats pretty much it alright,

However, on a more positive note. If you put your case to the company, and are a little more "I understand I did wrong, but I didn't realise what I was doing" I am sure you will be able to get a partial refund, maybe 50%? If you take a more aggresive approach I think you will get no where.

I'd also agree with this suggestion, I've heard many a user put their hands up and still request that the bill is excessive. In some of the cases I've heard the telecoms provider has reduced the bill.

I wouldn't recommend an overly aggressive approach to O2 in relation to this as you have to look at it this way:

- If your overly agreesive 1st off they will view all charges as valid, 2nd off they will want them paid and 3rd and most of all they know that because your agreesive and pissed off you'll likely leave O2 at the end of it all.

- If you take a less aggressive approach they will often likely reduce the charges in favor of keeping you some-what happy as a customer and thus retaining you as a customer

By reducing the bill both partys get the best of both worlds,

Bosshogg · 10-01-2010 11:44pm

Hi all.

Cabaal I really appreciate your determination to tear holes in my argument. It's already highlighted my failure to make myself clear on some issues. I'm thinking in the forum I'm talking more casually and leaving it open for some assumptions on your end. Time constraints and all that I can't really sit and type a legally tight document. Still though keep it coming.

Cabaal wrote: »

0.02c per MB works out at 20.48 per 1GB, NOT 20e per 10GB.

Yup when you really sit down to it that's what it works out at. However there's a clear strategy to misleading you to think otherwise.

Cabaal wrote: »

The problem is in your case is because you'#ve been caught out you don't wish to fullfill your commitments under the T&C's.

That's yet to be determined. Someone else claimed there system is buggy. Don't worry I'll keep everyone in touch with the outcome.

Cabaal wrote: »

O2 could not provide the Terms & Conditions in a clearer manner then this, its in plain english.Its not hidden or hard to understand.

I hugely disagree. The idea of that ridiculas math example was to show the lengths that people would have to go to to know for sure what exactly the charge is. The fact that they sell in GB but add a clause in MB is to be quite deliberately confusing, assuming people know what a GB or MB even is. Remember we're dealing with the big business sharks here of a faceless company.

A more proper approach would be something like this to begin with; The €20 monthly fee includes 10GB of transfer allowance, after that consumers are charged at the rate of €200 per 10GB transferred. Consumers are biolled at a per megabyte rate rounded to the nearest 2cent.

As I said that little discrepency of moving the decimal place is the scam.

Cabaal wrote: »

To be perfectly honest O2 is the very ISP I've seen in the UK or Ireland that posts a quick breakdown of its Terms & Conditions in this manner.

Which I'd have to argue is a deliberate get out clause for this very purpose. Btw helpdesk Mary was very well versed about this too. Seems to be a potent tool they have there.

Cabaal wrote: »

You can't pick and choose parts of a Terms & Conditions, its either all or nothing and if you don't agree with the Terms then you shouldn't have accepted them.

As I keep saying and trying to demonstrate, it's misleading to Joe Soap.

Cabaal wrote: »

Right you can be disappointed by my remarks all you want but class action suits DO NOT exist in Ireland so you ranting on about them means nothing

I didn't think you could buy Granola here either but sure enough my wife turned up with a pack today and there I was thinking all this time you could only get muesli.
Call it what you want, a demonstration even, but a group of offended people taking an action against a company is what I'm on about. Please don't tell me I have to get out a dictionary to be clear on this point with you. Group of people in the same both going to court to argue this is not ok.

Cabaal wrote: »

First of lets talk facts, O2 have done nothing illegal so saying they swindled you out of this money is misleading.

I'm really not so sure. I think you do have to be clear about your pricing. I know in a pub your price list has to be stuck to the wall. I think tagging in supermarkets is mandatory but I could be mixing up my country borders there.

Would I use O2's services, yes I would like any "Mobile Broadband" provider O2 like Meteor, Three or Vodafone reserve the right to charge for excessive usage.

On the basis that I understand this very basic fact I would use services belong to any of the above providers if I had to.

If however I used say 15GB on a 10GB package and I got charged then I only have myself to blame, I'd be annoyed with myself but I'd learn from it and move on and watch my usage in future

Right but you'd expect to pay €40 instead of €20 right? Or do you still claim that paying €120 is fair and acceptable?

So rather then take personal responsibility you want to challenge it, fair enough youy are entitled to.

You have two options
- Small claims court
- Get a solicitor and got to court....good luck with this option :rolleyes:

I think challenging it is taking responsibility rather than ducking my head in the sand and moaning that they took my money decietfully.
The small claims court is an obvious choice. It costs €15 and thanks to the help of your kind self and others here to trash it out I might have a .1% chance. Depends on the definition of justice.

Your belief that people will stay away from O2 is misguided, they most you';ll get O2 to do is perhaps reduce your bill.

Don't horror stories put you off shopping somewhere? Isn't that what this forum is about? Telling other people where to avoid. Aren't you the mod here? (Just asking)

*if* a company is doing something wrong then consumers have every right to challenge it.

Thank you, and that includes morally too. Think about people sueing the cigarette companies. Most if not all of your argument (where relevent such as not including megabytes etc) applies but still people successfully sue them for getting cancer.

In your case however its equal to a mobile phone company charging you for phone calls you made and then you complain about it.....pointless complaint.

Not nearly. I know when I'm using the phone. I know what a minute of talktime is. I can keep a mental track of how much I've been yakking away on the phone. As with the ESB bill, my car, beer and so on but not with a internet connection. That is a big part of my point. How much TV did you watch last month? Now if you gave me a number for that it would be wierd. I don't have a harddrive full with movies etc. I browse the internet in the modern way. Looking at educational videos, a bit of rugby, skype. You can't (easily) track it especially over 3 PCs. The company did not act responsibly in alerting the consumer to the level of their consumption and I believe they have a duty to do so. It would happen at a restaurant "eh excuse me sir, I don't mean to bother you but your bill is already at €800 is that ok?" Is it normal for a bloke to repeatedly spend €20 for months and then rocket up to €600? They have a duty to the consumer I just haven't found it in legal terms yet.

Cabaal wrote: »

VaPz really?
He's admitting to streaming rugby online this is not just browsing websites
Also O2 charge for "usage" this includes uploads and downloads so it all counts

Hey be nice to VaPz. He comes accross as nice and well meaning ;0)

Why are you even getting into kb?
O2 clearly charge 2c per MB not kb

Yes I am well aware of that. To answer that question; I used kb to highlight how deep the numbers, more in particular the zeros can get.

1024MB in a GB for a start
So 1MB is charged at 0.02c = 20.48c per GB

Yes I did prelude that by saying I wanted to keep it simple and not count in binary (0001, 0010, 0011, 0100, 0101...) so for the sake of easy practical reading I stayed clear of 1mb = 1048576 bytes and all the knock on implications and went with the more familiar simple 1000000 option.
Tedious to have to point that out now really but lesson learned.

1MB is 0.02c
The 10GB cap was part of the 19.99e package excess is charged at 0.02c,
You can't try and work out some new system to suit your needs.
Fact is 1MB is 0.02c so 1GB is 20.48c

Yes I think here you have the numbers out of context... Or I failed to make it clear that I was trying to demonstrate what assumption would be made by the consumer and how you would arrive there. I'm not sure exactly which passage you copied that from.

I don't know what crazy months you use but 1GB is 20.48c,

Aye and 38Gb is €586.61. I know. And a lot more people will be shocked to find that out if we don't tell 'em. I didn't sign up for any nasty shocks.
(I'm assuming typo and you mean maths)

Its not a con, its not illegal, its nothing dodgy.....these charges are pretty much standard among "Mobile Broadband" in Ireland

I absolutely disagree. It definately is a slight of hand con. It's completly dodgy and sleezy underhanded behaviour. It's the natural reaction of most people to say "wtf? 900 for 3 months!". It's utterly unexpected and I'm hoping someone will point me in a clear direction, maybe consumer affairs, but I'm pretty sure it's illegal.
[/quote]

Now I'll try and clear the point of this bit up again...

8 bits to a byte, 1024 bytes to a kB, (I can actually count in binary but let’s keep it simple), 1000000 bytes in a megabyte. How many bytes in a Gb anyone? 1000000000 bytes in a gigabyte therefore 10Gb is 10000000000. So if you want to find out how much more you are charged for every Gb over you are you have to multiply 1000000 by .02 and then multiply the answer by 10000.
Is this right? Could someone check this for me? I want to use it as an argument.

That's what you have to know and have to do to figure out the deal they're giving you. And that's the easy numbers version, if you like use your own (Cabaal's) version of 1024mb to a gig. Now if you can't see that as a scam then you're just trying to wind me up.

Cabaal you can't honestly tell me after seeing their initial offer of 10GB for €20 that you figured out at a glance the next 10GB would be €200. They've worked hard to keep you from noticing that by burying it in the small print and changing the pricing format.

What I've tried to demonstrate is how someone that is good at math like me and has huge experience in this field can be caught out. So what chance has a busy single mum of 3 got? Or your aunt Jamima? Or my mate the the digger truck driver that can't find the apostrophe on the keyboard?

Now you repeatedly pointing at 2 lines on the contract, and me defending it is starting to sound like a broken record don't you think?

So tell me Cabaal, if you were the judge presiding over this case how would you rule?

I guess it boils down to this.... Is €950 a fair charge for 3 months internet?

Cheers.

Bosshogg · 10-01-2010 11:51pm

randomer wrote: »

However, on a more positive note. If you put your case to the company, and are a little more "I understand I did wrong, but I didn't realise what I was doing" I am sure you will be able to get a partial refund, maybe 50%? If you take a more aggresive approach I think you will get no where.

I'm looking for a more durable outcome whereby I don't have navigate a minefield to go online, or to see my unsuspecting neighbours getting injured in the same way. There has to be more pressure on these companies to not let this happen again to anyone. Pricing has to be abundantly clear to the public and if you ask me "O2 Broadband, €19.99 per month, it's that simple" doesn't cut it because a lot of people will be wondering how a simple €20 became simple €580.

I have my sights set higher.

Blarggggh · 11-01-2010 12:53am

Bosshogg wrote: »

I guess it boils down to this.... Is €950 a fair charge for 3 months internet?

It is when thats the excess stated in the contract, and YOU agreed to sign your name on the contract. Did you even bother to reading contract ?

Victor · 11-01-2010 1:19am

OP, what size is your connection? The data you listed in post 7 is analysed in the attached.

If I'm correct, it seems to suggest you were up/downloading at 3.52Mb/s at times.

Cabaal wrote: »

Why are you even getting into kb?
O2 clearly charge 2c per MB not kb

1024MB in a GB for a start
So 1MB is charged at 0.02c = 20.48c per GB

Sorry, you said you don't work for 02, which phone company do you work for? Only gobsh¡te phone companies use the above expressions.

If 1MB = 2c = €0.02
=> 1 GB ~= €20

Its €20 not the 20c you say above.

randomer · 11-01-2010 4:30am

OP, I tried comparing it to a mobile phone, but that didn't work, so I will try another example, driving a car.

If a road has a 50 kmph speed limit and you drive at 50 kmph then everyone is happy.

If you drive slightly over the limit, say 54 kmph, the Gardai are unlikely to give you a fine and penalty points, and the general public are unlikely to get annoyed with you.

If you drive 65 kmph in the same 50 kmph zone, then you will get a fine and penalty points and it is hard to argue against it.

If, however, you drive 160 kmph in the same 50 kmph zone and are caught, you will likely be banned from driving and could be sent to jail, and the general public will agree with this.

You signed up to use a broadband package that is designed for casual browsing. I am a heavy Internet user and would probably rarely go over 10 GB per month. Your excess usage of the mobile broadband has a negative impact on other mobile broadband users and as such you are penalised. It clearly states that there is a 10gb LIMIT and that there are charges for going over this.

If you want to get some money back, take the approach mentioned before.

randomer · 11-01-2010 4:56am

Just to clarify:

The high cost of exceeding the LIMIT is designed to discourage people from abusing the service and thereby reducing the quality of service for other customers.

If the OP had seen the first bill, which he didn't through no fault of O2, he would have been aware of the issue and could have changed his usage habits or purchased a more suitable broadband package. He didn't, and continued to misuse the service and now the problem is three times the size it originally was.

Cabaal · 11-01-2010 8:28am

Victor wrote: »

Sorry, you said you don't work for 02, which phone company do you work for? Only gobsh¡te phone companies use the above expressions.

I actually never said if I did or did not work for O2,

However now you mention it I don't work for any company offering services in Ireland, I certainly have no interest in O2 or any of those so called "Mobile Broadband" companys.

Had you read any of my previous posts on the Broadband forum or my blog you'd know I really dislike so called "Mobile Broadband" companys due to the way they market their product as "Mobile Broadband" when infact it should be "Midband".

I'd be happy to provide you with links and e-mails I've sent to various Gov Agencys showing my dislike of these products.

None the less as much as I dislike these companys for the way they advertise they are still entitled to charge for there products inline with what they display as charged and in their T&C's,

Customers of any provider cannot simply pick and choose which parts of the charges they'll accept or not accept when they use a providers services.

If 1MB = 2c = €0.02
=> 1 GB ~= €20

Its €20 not the 20c you say above.

I never said 20c I said 20.48, I apologise if I didn't make it clear that I actually meant
€20.48 or Twenty Euro & Forty Eight Cent per 1GB.
1MB = 1024KB 1GB = 1024MB so 1024 x 2c = €20.48

Clear enough Victor?

smog · 11-01-2010 8:44am

OP you have some concrete details O2 have given you. Times online etc as well as amount downloaded. Were you online at the time, is there anything you can dispute?

If not .. then getting them to reduce the charges to keep you as a customer is the only option (which they most likely will do if you keep the communication on this point - and not how they are trying to rip you off)

If you were not online during these times then lodge a formal complaint that you were not using the service etc at this time. There is pretty much a 24 period here that if you were elsewhere brings some clout to the complaint

23:06 14/12/09 Data 419.95 MB 0.00
00:00 15/12/09 Data 595.74 MB 0.00
01:06 15/12/09 Data 1.05 GB 0.00
03:06 15/12/09 Data 605.5 MB 0.00
05:05 15/12/09 Data 194.95 MB 0.00
09:45 15/12/09 Data 138.43 MB 0.00
10:05 15/12/09 Data 527.38 MB 0.00
11:06 15/12/09 Data 908.25 MB 0.00
13:06 15/12/09 Data 830.13 MB 0.00
15:06 15/12/09 Data 693.4 MB 0.00
17:05 15/12/09 Data 530.46 MB 0.00
19:02 15/12/09 Data 737.0 KB 0.00
21:02 15/12/09 Data 16.0 KB 0.00
22:33 15/12/09 Data 205.09 MB 0.00
23:06 15/12/09 Data 410.18 MB 0.00

Cabaal · 11-01-2010 8:51am

Bosshogg wrote: »

Yup when you really sit down to it that's what it works out at. However there's a clear strategy to misleading you to think otherwise.

Its clear you can't do basic maths and logic so there's no point in me explaining in detail what 1GB is charged at, I've explained this numerous times.

Its far from misleading

That's yet to be determined. Someone else claimed there system is buggy.

Pure speculation unless you have facts to back it up, also any such iossues would have to be proved as a cause for your case.

I hugely disagree. The idea of that ridiculas math example was to show the lengths that people would have to go to to know for sure what exactly the charge is.

So using basic multiplication is considered complex maths?
2c charge per 1MB, 1024MB in 1GB.....oh yeah I can see how thats crazy complex....its up there with Stephen Hawkings type stuff :rolleyes:

The fact that they sell in GB but add a clause in MB is to be quite deliberately confusing, assuming people know what a GB or MB even is. Remember we're dealing with the big business sharks here of a faceless company.

Once again Eircom, Vodafone, Perlico, UTV etc etc do the same thing and reserve the right to charge per 1MB when you go over the cap.

Its not misleading, its not anti-competitive, its not illegal, its not dodgy and Comreg will confirm this.

Anyway in your case you have already clearly shown through your work and what you used the connection for that you understand what 1MB is and what 1GB is, so yopur hardly confused.

A more proper approach would be something like this to begin with; The €20 monthly fee includes 10GB of transfer allowance, after that consumers are charged at the rate of €200 per 10GB transferred. Consumers are biolled at a per megabyte rate rounded to the nearest 2cent.

Sure yeah suggest that to O2 as feedback...that however doesn't affect your specific case.

As I said that little discrepency of moving the decimal place is the scam.

Which I'd have to argue is a deliberate get out clause for this very purpose. Btw helpdesk Mary was very well versed about this too. Seems to be a potent tool they have there.

Yeah sure right :rolleyes:

As I keep saying and trying to demonstrate, it's misleading to Joe Soap.

Its only an issue if "Joe Soap" eg: You didn't bother to read the T&C's before hand, as with any T&C's for any service if the customer has a query regarding a section they should query this with the company.

Only an idiot signs up to a contracted financial commitment without reading its Terms.

Simple question would you sign up to a bank loan without reading its Terms?

I didn't think you could buy Granola here either but sure enough my wife turned up with a pack today and there I was thinking all this time you could only get muesli.
Call it what you want, a demonstration even, but a group of offended people taking an action against a company is what I'm on about. Please don't tell me I have to get out a dictionary to be clear on this point with you. Group of people in the same both going to court to argue this is not ok.

For the last time there is no such thing as a class action suit in Ireland, you can play word games all you want and make pointless examples but there is no such thing.

I'm really not so sure. I think you do have to be clear about your pricing. I know in a pub your price list has to be stuck to the wall. I think tagging in supermarkets is mandatory but I could be mixing up my country borders there.

How is o2 not clear?
- Its on their website
- Its in there T&C's
- Its in their shops
- They pretty sure they provide you with written details with your package upon sign-up

What do you want them to do visit your house and read it to you?

Right but you'd expect to pay €40 instead of €20 right? Or do you still claim that paying €120 is fair and acceptable?

Not even sure what stuff your ranting on about here

I think challenging it is taking responsibility rather than ducking my head in the sand and moaning that they took my money decietfully.
The small claims court is an obvious choice. It costs €15 and thanks to the help of your kind self and others here to trash it out I might have a .1% chance. Depends on the definition of justice.

Your dodgying your commitments under the T&C's,
So if the ESB bill you for 200e which is a legit charge you thinking challenging it is taking responsibility?

Don't horror stories put you off shopping somewhere? Isn't that what this forum is about? Telling other people where to avoid. Aren't you the mod here? (Just asking)

Legit horror stories yes
Stories twisted due to the extremely poor understanding of the poster do not and that is clear from this thread.

I'm not a mod of this forum.

Thank you, and that includes morally too. Think about people sueing the cigarette companies. Most if not all of your argument (where relevent such as not including megabytes etc) applies but still people successfully sue them for getting cancer.

Ok lets make more non-sensible rants, you've just insulted anyone who's got lung cancer from smoking by comparing it to an ISP charging for a legit service...wow.
:rolleyes:

Not nearly. I know when I'm using the phone. I know what a minute of talktime is. I can keep a mental track of how much I've been yakking away on the phone.

You can do the same with data transfers, lots of apps and tools that allow you to do this. In addition if your downloading a 1GB file you know for a fact your downloading this much data.

Ignorance is not a legit legal defense

Yes I think here you have the numbers out of context... Or I failed to make it clear that I was trying to demonstrate what assumption would be made by the consumer and how you would arrive there. I'm not sure exactly which passage you copied that from.

An incorrect assumption regarding the charges could only be made if the customer can not do maths, thats the only way they could come to the conclusion that 10GB is 20e

I absolutely disagree. It definately is a slight of hand con. It's completly dodgy and sleezy underhanded behaviour. It's the natural reaction of most people to say "wtf? 900 for 3 months!". It's utterly unexpected and I'm hoping someone will point me in a clear direction, maybe consumer affairs, but I'm pretty sure it's illegal.

Until you prove anything as fact its not illegal, saying it is at this stage is nonsense and very foolish and certainly doesn't help your case.

That's what you have to know and have to do to figure out the deal they're giving you. And that's the easy numbers version, if you like use your own (Cabaal's) version of 1024mb to a gig. Now if you can't see that as a scam then you're just trying to wind me up.

Its not a scam, its O2 charging for a service they provided.
Its not different to O2 charging 20c per min if you call from one of their mobiles.

Cabaal you can't honestly tell me after seeing their initial offer of 10GB for €20 that you figured out at a glance the next 10GB would be €200. They've worked hard to keep you from noticing that by burying it in the small print and changing the pricing format.

They make this information extremely clear, its certain not "hidden", I've already clearly shown you how easy you can access it.

If you believe that the next 10GB is another 20e then your extremely foolish for assuming such a thing

What I've tried to demonstrate is how someone that is good at math like me and has huge experience in this field can be caught out.

This is misleading and you know it,
You started this thread saying what experience you have doing websites and photos, then you tried to play the fool saying you didn't know what 1MB was. Then you got caught out.

Now you repeatedly pointing at 2 lines on the contract, and me defending it is starting to sound like a broken record don't you think?

You pretending to play the fool is also getting tiring.

So tell me Cabaal, if you were the judge presiding over this case how would you rule?

Depending on your attitude I'd either look for you to pay the whole thing or perhaps 50/60% of it. They are valid charges after all.

At the end of the day if you didn't like the pricing structure you should have never used the service.

Cabaal · 11-01-2010 9:02am

smog wrote: »

If not .. then getting them to reduce the charges to keep you as a customer is the only option (which they most likely will do if you keep the communication on this point - and not how they are trying to rip you off)

I'd fully agree with this point,
If the OP rants on about how O2 have acted illegally they won't want to cut any charges, if he acts in a reasonable and logical manner he has more chance.

This is very basic advice and has worked for numerous users on boards when dealing with companys, if you approach companys in a logical and reasonable manner you have a better chance.

Worked for me previously with Three and BT, of course to date the OP has not shown much logic in his posts.

dave13 · 11-01-2010 9:03am

has anyone looked at that usage

19:16 14/12/09 Data 527.38 MB 0.00
21:06 14/12/09 Data 683.64 MB 0.00
23:06 14/12/09 Data 419.95 MB 0.00
00:00 15/12/09 Data 595.74 MB 0.00
01:06 15/12/09 Data 1.05 GB 0.00
03:06 15/12/09 Data 605.5 MB 0.00

is it really possible to download 3.8GB on an o2 broadband dongle in 8 hours?
When i had it it wasnt capable of anything near that.

Cabaal · 11-01-2010 9:20am

Ares wrote: »

has anyone looked at that usage

19:16 14/12/09 Data 527.38 MB 0.00
21:06 14/12/09 Data 683.64 MB 0.00
23:06 14/12/09 Data 419.95 MB 0.00
00:00 15/12/09 Data 595.74 MB 0.00
01:06 15/12/09 Data 1.05 GB 0.00
03:06 15/12/09 Data 605.5 MB 0.00

is it really possible to download 3.8GB on an o2 broadband dongle in 8 hours?
When i had it it wasnt capable of anything near that.

3.8GB in just about 8hours?
Yep perfectly do-able and this only if your just getting over 1MB speeds (130kb/sec)

(3.8 gigabytes) / (130 (kilobytes / second)) = 8.51407863 hours

Anyway, in relation to the speed you received; speed on all mobile Broadband suppliers can vary depending on location and amount of users in that location.

So while one user may only get 1MB speeds in one location you vary well could get the full ability of the connection in another....one of the downsides of "Mobile Broadband" when compared to cable or ADSL

Nonoperational · 11-01-2010 9:28am

It is very easy to be cynical and say O2 are out to get people with no proof. That drum can be beat both ways. I could be cynical and say the OP was downloading movies every night and didn't realise he was going over the limit. Now that he realised how much the bills are he panics and tries to blame O2. To be honest its far more likely then O2 doing something dodgey.

It's amazing how many complaints in the consumer section are not legitimate complaints at all but self righteous rants at companies when the consumer is actually fully to blame themselves.

jor el · 11-01-2010 10:54am

gpf101 wrote: »

It is very easy to be cynical and say O2 are out to get people with no proof. That drum can be beat both ways. I could be cynical and say the OP was downloading movies every night and didn't realise he was going over the limit. Now that he realised how much the bills are he panics and tries to blame O2. To be honest its far more likely then O2 doing something dodgey.

In a nutshell, that's about it. This is not a rip-off, it's a case of someone not understanding what they've bought and using it without any care, and then paying the price for that. As Cabaal pointed out, the charges are listed in plain English, and in a simple short paragraph. There's no excuse for not knowing, except if you couldn't be bothered to find out before downloading 4 times the allowed amount.

The only thing I would say against O2 is that they could very easily implement a text message warning when someone gets to say 90% of their limit. They're not obliged to do this, but it would be nice. There is nothing wrong with their charges, or charging for going over the limit and they do provide an online usage monitor, that can easily be checked by the customer. In this case, the customer didn't bother to check, or didn't bother to find out.

User error is NOT a rip-off.

O2 Wireless only €950 for 3 months

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