Supreme Court Appeal [READ POST 115 BEFORE POSTING]

tonysopprano

Listed for Mention Thur 14/01/10 (Chief-Justice)
Listed for Hearing Mon 25/01/10 (Chief-Justice, Justices Denham and Hardiman)

As pere Legal Diary

rowa

can you give us any details or an outline of the case ?

Sparks

Not until afterwards he can't, the case is sub judice!

rowa

ok .

Sparks

Soon as it's over though rowa, full details (I think everyone wants to see the outcome of this one).


edit: (In case you didn't know the case, this is the appeal of the charleton judgement from last year)

rowa

yeah i went onto courts.ie and did a search so i got the jist of it , fingers crossed .

ironsight

Forgive me if I have this out of context, but this makes interesting if not complicated reading.

http://www.mcdermottroe.com/shooting/law/#ref-1-1998-09-03-39

Anyway, fingers crossed for you all

rrpc

This is the actual link to the High Court Case which is being appealed to the Supreme Court.

As with all such appeals it has a very narrow focus and will in all probability mean very little to most of us. The majority of the law that this is based on is superceded now.

Bananaman

Yet is was the basis of much of the justification given by the Minister for introducing some of the more draconian aspects of the firearms sections of the Criminal Justice (Misc. Provisions) bill - not that he'll give a hoot if it is overturned.

B'Man

ironsight

Come on it's after 6 PM back in Dear Old Ireland....

Any News, I'm positively salivating with anticipation.

These have to be the slowest and longest lasting few days of the calendar so far this year

dCorbus

Hey ironsight, there probably won't be any news on here about this until after the hearing and supreme court decision (Ref. sparks moderator post above - sub judice and all that:rolleyes:):

Supreme Court Appeal
Listed for Mention Thur 14/01/10 (Chief-Justice)
Listed for Hearing Mon 25/01/10 (Chief-Justice, Justices Denham and Hardiman)

As pere Legal Diary

That's in the legal diary for Monday 25th Jan.
So you'll have to wait til then with baited breath and even more salivatious anticipation, like the rest of us!:D

ironsight

What news or conjecture has come from today's "Mention" in the esteemed Supreme Court?

meathshooter

anyone know what time its listed for on the 25th is it morning or afternoon as there are other cases on that day,would like to sit in on the procedings

Dvs

The hearing is listed for 11 am,
all the cases are related to the same subject matter as far as I know.
and would be of equal interest.

Dvs

meathshooter1

just to bump it up tomorrow is the day

BornToKill

I think it's pushed back to the next term.

meathshooter1

BornToKill wrote: »

I think it's pushed back to the next term.

dont say that have appeal in march

BornToKill

Legal diary.

meathshooter1

its off the list allright

rowa

does it have any actual bearing on the legal cases coming before the district courts now anyway ?

Sparks

It shouldn't because it applies to a case that took place prior to the 2006CJA and 2009 Misc.Provisions act, but it may well be taken by DC justices as setting a tone for such judgements.
Not to mention, it's worth it to get Charleton's rather unpleasant words overruled.

Tricky1127

I don`t understand why any one on what ever side of it would want to have it pushed back...???

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

It shouldn't because it applies to a case that took place prior to the 2006CJA and 2009 Misc.Provisions act, but it may well be taken by DC justices as setting a tone for such judgements.
Not to mention, it's worth it to get Charleton's rather unpleasant words overruled.

yeah, but you can't un-ring the bell sparks , the horse is bolted and the damage is done , ahern used charltons quote several times running up his ban .

Sparks

I know rowa, but it might make things easier with the next Minister...

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

I know rowa, but it might make things easier with the next Minister...

or worse knowing our luck ,

tonysopprano

Adjourned to next term. No date set.

cavan shooter

Unfortunately it would not be deemed as a high priority, you find that in relation to appeals all the "criminal" stuff will get precedent, over the non criminal. We couldnt have a fella doing a 6 year stretch saying his human rights were violated because he should only be doing a 3 year stretch:(

sfakiaman

cavan shooter wrote: »

Unfortunately it would not be deemed as a high priority, you find that in relation to appeals all the "criminal" stuff will get precedent, over the non criminal. We couldnt have a fella doing a 6 year stretch saying his human rights were violated because he should only be doing a 3 year stretch:(

It's more likely that a government minister has "let it be known" that any judgement should held over till the restricted appeals have been decided.

cavan shooter

sfakiaman wrote: »

It's more likely that a government minister has "let it be known" that any judgement should held over till the restricted appeals have been decided.

From my experience that type of request would that would have to be agreed by both sides, so has it

BornToKill

sfakiaman wrote: »

It's more likely that a government minister has "let it be known" that any judgement should held over till the restricted appeals have been decided.

From what I heard, I think you have the wrong end of the stick. It was the appellant's side requested it be deferred.

meathshooter1

case is put back till april

rowa

has there been any good news cases from the district courts lately ? there must be a glut of them coming up in the next while .

meathshooter1

good news on one cant post details still ongoing but can say refusal was overturned,there are a good few cases coming up in the district court over the next few weeks keep the fingers crossed

CeeBeeYou

Mine is adjourned 'til September at Chief Supt.'s request.

rowa

CeeBeeYou wrote: »

Mine is adjourned 'til September at Chief Supt.'s request.

can you request to have the case adjourned yourself ? i am at college and can't afford to retain a solicitor now but can in a few months time when the year is over.
i don't want to let the pistol go forever just because of money.

Rovi

Probably best to talk to your NGB for specific advice on your particular situation.
Are you a member of NARGC or NASRPC? They've both got access to legal professionals.


edited to add:
If your application has been refused, you must lodge your appeal before the 30 day limit expires. It'll go into the court diary at that point and will be called in due course.
Adjournments can and have been granted, but it'd be best to get professional advice on how to go about doing it.

Tricky1127

CeeBeeYou wrote: »

Mine is adjourned 'til September at Chief Supt.'s request.

I know of two others adjourned untill after they come back from summer break...??? Why would the Chief Supt want to do this..?? both of them came B4 the court in mid Jan/2010

rowa

Tricky1127 wrote: »

I know of two others adjourned untill after they come back from summer break...??? Why would the Chief Supt want to do this..?? both of them came B4 the court in mid Jan/2010

could it be they are waiting to see if the tide has turned against them and the courts are overturning their refusals to issue licences ?

Tricky1127

Hi Rowa, Both of them are finding it hard on there lifes! the courts the money and the stress of it all
Going to court for most people isn`t the norm and then to have it hanging over your head

quigley

An appeal can be tough going but one should remember the following:

1. The CS Refusal is not personal - review his reasons outlined on the refusal letter. Your subsequent appeal will turn on these reasons - so it is not your character that is being argued in Court, rather it is the destruction of the CS's generally spurious reasons.
2. Despite the stress of the situation, you are fully entitled, as a citizen of a Republic where the writ of law still applies to appeal what you percieve is a WRONG decision by a member of the Gardai.
3. Before all else, agree a fee with your solicitor - at least you are then sure of your financial exposure. You should also discuss with your solicitor the possibility of seeking costs in the event of a successful outcome.
4. The Appeal itself is a legal game, played out by both sides to achieve a result - you should expect that the CS might well seek to have your case put back - remember two can play that game - as an attempt to frustrate you; however there will come a day when it will be heard by the Court. There is a lot of gamesmanship involved, but as the Texas Executioner said - "its not personal, its business!"

Really, what I am trying to say is that if you feel that you have strong arguments to refute the reasons for refusal put forward by the CS, you should appeal. Look at it this way, if nobody appeals, then the politics of the sound-bite has won, despit what is stated in law.

chem

rowa wrote: »

could it be they are waiting to see if the tide has turned against them and the courts are overturning their refusals to issue licences ?

OR waiting a change in law. Can Mr. Murphy and the Minister for justice, not declare types of firearms as especially dangerous, and so ban them? This might be the next move on the chess board

And in doing so, alot of court cases, will have no grounds to go ahead.

Tricky1127

chem wrote: »

OR waiting a change in law. Can Mr. Murphy and the Minister for justice, not declare types of firearms as especially dangerous, and so ban them? This might be the next move on the chess board

And in doing so, alot of court cases, will have no grounds to go ahead.

Thats an non-runner because of the fast one pulled in the early 1970`s and people today aren`t going to let it happen again :cool:

meathshooter1

chem wrote: »

OR waiting a change in law. Can Mr. Murphy and the Minister for justice, not declare types of firearms as especially dangerous, and so ban them? This might be the next move on the chess board

And in doing so, alot of court cases, will have no grounds to go ahead.

and if they do that they will have to compensate handgun owners but to me its not about the money I would deeply miss the enjoyment I get from the sport .they already had the chance to ban outright and the gardai are whittling away with the numbers as we speak how many handguns certs have been granted How many just handed theres up,they have the sport at its knees,No new centrefire pistol certs ,peoples club memberships ticking away,cant train in my chosen sport,cant compete because of no cert,Pistols in storage costing money,alarm monitoring fees ,solicitors fees etc,Baning world recognized shooting sport ,some people haven't even been giving a reply from the chief supers on there applications,We are vetted law abiding citizens in the first place what have we done to deserve this treatment Criminals are treated better and better armed thats another matter and has noting to do with our sport.I just hope when we get a new government they will see the difference but I fear there all the same at the end of the day promise the moon and stars and I have seen noting so far that will change that

quigley

What Chem suggests may happen in future has always been a possibility, but I think you can only play the hand you are dealt ie the law as it now stands, and appeal if you feel you have a strong enough case. A future Govt with FG input does not offer any greater hope if one is to judge by the comments of Mr Deasy on this topic - (something I find strange in a party that always potrayed itself as the party of Strong Property Rights and Strong Law)

rowa

to be honest i was wondering if it was or is going to be worthwhile having a centrefire at all now that there are so few of them about, i do love shooting the thing and and it is completely different to shooting a rimfire pistol .
but will the clubs be running competitions , would it be worth their while either ?

Bananaman

chem wrote: »

OR waiting a change in law. Can Mr. Murphy and the Minister for justice, not declare types of firearms as especially dangerous, and so ban them? This might be the next move on the chess board

And in doing so, alot of court cases, will have no grounds to go ahead.

Ever hear of Chicken Licken?

They are not prohibited - the Minister cannot change the law to suit his personal whims in order to subvert the course of Justice - once a case is lodged before the courts the courts will eventually hear it make a determination.

You either want to achieve your license to continue in the sport or you don't - if you do then you have a right of appeal for your refusal - which you can avail of or not.

rowa wrote: »

to be honest i was wondering if it was or is going to be worthwhile having a centrefire at all now that there are so few of them about, i do love shooting the thing and and it is completely different to shooting a rimfire pistol .
but will the clubs be running competitions , would it be worth their while either ?

NASRPC have a full competition calendar outlined for 2010 which has National Centrefire Pistol Competition, among many other disciplines, almost every month.

I am sure that all of the Centrefire Pistol Clubs - including yours - will also have a full competition Calendar.

There are Centrefire Pistol Licenses being issued by the Gardai - I have mine in my pocket at this very moment (the license that is).

I do not know what the numbers are like but there were only ever a small percentage of the licenses issued being actively used. If that small percentage all achieve their licenses again then the range and competition attendances will be no different from last year or the year before.

I for one am optimistic - things have gone well for me - but we are starting to see good news trickling through.

B'Man

chem

Bananaman wrote: »

Ever hear of Chicken Licken?

They are not prohibited - the Minister cannot change the law to suit his personal whims in order to subvert the course of Justice - once a case is lodged before the courts the courts will eventually hear it make a determination.

You either want to achieve your license to continue in the sport or you don't - if you do then you have a right of appeal for your refusal - which you can avail of or not.

B'Man

Glad it worked out well for you B`man. Im point is the Gardai and minister can still outlaw pistols, if they come to the conclusion that they are a type of firearms that is dangerous to the public. Its in the law.

2C.—(1) The Minister may, in the interests of
public safety and security, by order—
[2009.] Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous [No. 28.]
Provisions) Act 2009.
(a) declare specified firearms to be prohibited
firearms for the purposes of
this Act by reference to one or more
than one of the following criteria:
(i) category;
(ii) calibre;
(iii) working mechanism;
(iv) muzzle energy;
(v) description;

Noone said that people dont have the right to go to court, but if pistols are outlawed as your waiting for your case to come up, The Judge on the day has only one choice.

If its true that alot of cases for pistol certs are been put off by the Gardai, maybe this is why? Or at least they are trying to come up with a different approach, as the one they are using now does not seem to be working.

Hope im wrong!

Tricky1127

The refusal to grant licence 4 a .22 colt, 45 colt revolver, 7.63mm mauser pistol, 45 colt pistol "1911"

knockon

Quote from the Irish Times:"The weapons were semi-automatic and he had concerns about the so-called “tiger” kidnappings by criminal elements, Supt Kerin told Michael O’Connell, barrister for the ......"

I find it unusual that the judge did not request reporting restrictions on the appellants. Now that the Gardai have dragged more good citizens through the courts where they were named in Ireland's leading broadsheets they have certainly given publicity to 2 guys who really should'nt have had their names made public.

So much for crime prevention. They (The State) should have insisted on reporting restrictions.

rrpc

knockon wrote: »

Quote from the Irish Times:"The weapons were semi-automatic and he had concerns about the so-called “tiger” kidnappings by criminal elements, Supt Kerin told Michael O’Connell, barrister for the ......"

I find it unusual that the judge did not request reporting restrictions on the appellants. Now that the Gardai have dragged more good citizens through the courts where they were named in Ireland's leading broadsheets they have certainly given publicity to 2 guys who really should'nt have had their names made public.

So much for crime prevention. They (The State) should have insisted on reporting restrictions.

It's possible that it wasn't requested. You can't assume that it's the State's fault and especially not from a newspaper report.

rowa

knockon wrote: »

Quote from the Irish Times:"The weapons were semi-automatic and he had concerns about the so-called “tiger” kidnappings by criminal elements, Supt Kerin told Michael O’Connell, barrister for the ......"

I find it unusual that the judge did not request reporting restrictions on the appellants. Now that the Gardai have dragged more good citizens through the courts where they were named in Ireland's leading broadsheets they have certainly given publicity to 2 guys who really should'nt have had their names made public.

So much for crime prevention. They (The State) should have insisted on reporting restrictions.

I think its a red herring thrown up by the police all to readily , the criminals regularly throw away the firearms used in murders/attempted murders as being caught in the possession of a "marked" firearm is simply not worth the penalties they'd get in prison time, neither is the chance of getting caught burgling a house to get a single pistol .

Anyway they have little or no problems getting them on the blackmarket, if you can smuggle massive amounts of drugs into the country a few pistols/ingrams/ak47's/grenades are no problem.

There was a case in dublin during the week when an attempted hit went wrong they simply dropped the glock and sawn-off shotgun and ran for it.