MEETING THE WEB DEVELOPER

suey71

I'm meeting with a rep. from a web development company within the next few days to discuss getting a website developed and up and running.
We talked a little on the phone about prices and need some advice on the following.

1. He says his company will build me a website for free but will charge me €50 per month if I make money from the site. By making money he says more than €1500 per month turnover. Any less than that and his company wont charge me anything.

Is this normal?

I hope to make more than this per month (thinking positive) and if I do, it would work out at €600 per year.

2. His company charge €250 to set up a face book business profile,(and obviously extra for the ads). and €250 to set up an Adwords campaign,(extra for the ads.) which sound about right to me.

3. He says he recommends spending about €1000 on the look/design of the website. Sounds excessive.

4. And another few hundred on training.

This comes to a total of about €2000 and thats before the price of the website is taken into account.

It seems a little steep.

I've budgeted for the Adwords campaign so expected the €250 plus ppc ads.

But no doubt there will be ongoing fees too.

The company are a reputable company and I don't want to mess up by taking on too much myself, so I could do with them taking care of the marketing side of things until I feel I can take control myself.

I don't want to get screw*d so any advice would be much appreciated.

Pixelcraft

suey71 wrote: »

I'm meeting with a rep. from a web development company within the next few days to discuss getting a website developed and up and running.
We talked a little on the phone about prices and need some advice on the following.

1. He says his company will build me a website for free but will charge me €50 per month if I make money from the site. By making money he says more than €1500 per month turnover. Any less than that and his company wont charge me anything.

Is this normal?

No completely abnormal, how would anyone expect to do business this way?

You're most likely being given a template, content thrown into it, and they'll recoup costs that way. Hardly the foundation for a successful website.

suey71

Hi Pixelcraft, I was thinking that myself, but there are a few places out there with deals like this. It seems it will become the norm.

I have approached a number of web developement companies and some of the prices being bandied about are crazy, €8-€10,000 for basic ecommerce sites and god only knows what kind of ongoing charges they will add on and convince you you need them.

Pixelcraft

suey71 wrote: »

Hi Pixelcraft, I was thinking that myself, but there are a few places out there with deals like this. It seems it will become the norm.

I have approached a number of web developement companies and some of the prices being bandied about are crazy, €8-€10,000 for basic ecommerce sites and god only knows what kind of ongoing charges they will add on and convince you you need them.

Trust me Suey71, it's not the norm, won't become it, and is only offered by cowboys. A website isn't just a website, there's varying quality, effectiveness, styles etc. It's a service, not a commodity.

Without knowing spec it's hard to comment on prices, but as a ballpark you'd be looking at 3k+ in my opinion for a decent solution. A freelance or small studio will obviously cost less than an agency, so if they can provide what you need that'll be the best option.

Just remember you get what you pay for!

thorbarry

Pixelcraft is right. That sounds crazy

Edit: Also i am pretty sure you could set up the facebook business profile yourself?

ed6hellsfresh

€500 for setting up facebook and adwords? I did that for roughly €0.00 in about ten minutes.

I wouldn't go along with that sort of thing, no way

kenbrady

Pixelcraft wrote: »

Trust me Suey71, it's not the norm, won't become it, and is only offered by cowboys. A website isn't just a website, there's varying quality, effectiveness, styles etc. It's a service, not a commodity.

You haven't a clue. Don't disparage companies due to your lack of knowledge and innovation.

Smart companies have realisied that charging a one off lump sum for a website is a bad business model. It's like SaaS model for software. Instead of buying a big enterprise system for millions. You rent it for thousands each month.

A weekend on the internet doing some research about facebook/adwords and you will be happy to do that part yourself.
Write down a list of what you want to achieve. Ask companies how they will do each think on your list and get a price brokendown.

Pixelcraft

It's one thing offering payment terms. It's another offering to do it for free if the site doesn't turn a profit (which is a bad business model). I presume by your response you're close to this?

suey71

I figured paying out €500 to have someone do something they're good at would work out cheaper than me chancing my arm and loosing €500 in bad ad placements in Facebook and more importantly Adwords.

But the €1000 or thereabouts fo the logo/design/look of the website is throwing me off.
Seems a tad excessive.

But good advice from everyone and will take everything on board.

ve

I have to introject here once again, and I agree completely with Pixelcraft's sentiments also. These sorts of threads are extremely common and not just on boards.ie. That IMO speaks volumes about the problem that exists which I believe to be the following...

People who have little or no experience in employing web technologies in business have any idea how to benchmark quality in terms of service/value for money, often until it's too late.

Why is that?
For starters the web is a complex platform and in order to get it to "work for you" requires significant technical expertise and years of training/knowledge. Just like there is no get rich quick schemes, there are no cheap successful websites. Just like buying a car, what impacts your decision to buy a car. There are many cars/dealers out there and nearly every one of them has a different price attached. They are all cars, and we can assume that they all can safely take us from A to B. So what is it that makes people purchase more expensive cars?. Is it reliability?, Is it snob value?, Is it through recommendation?, Is it through actually understanding the inner workings?, Is it just because it looks nice?, or is it because you can see your neighbours with one that has served them extremely well for the past 15 years?. I would imagine that all of those things contribute, but you would be very foolish if you relied upon just one. Unfortunately getting a successful website in place is far more complex than purchasing a car. It's not that the actual design/development of the website is the big problem (although it does require a lot of technical skill to pull off properly), but rather the strategy that is put in place in the interest of the project/client at hand.

If anyone asks "I need a website for my business, how much will it cost?", they should be asked back "I want a car, how much will it cost?". Although I think the latter would be much easier to answer, considering there are lots of people driving away with the exact same model of car each year, where as there are no two websites/businesses the same.

My advice to anyone looking to get a new website, is to invest time in to learning what it is "you need". Listen to the advice from as many professionals as possible. Don't choose based on price.

I can offer anyone, their own .com with hosting and lovely looking website for €50 per year. Does that mean you should ask me to give it to you?. At best what might happen is that you will impress you friends and colleagues that equally do not understand anything about the technology, but you won't get the results that hoped you would get.

Also as Pixelcraft said, "It's a service, not a commodity". The sooner people get their heads around that the better. Just like when you go to your GP, you don't buy never ending personal health, you invest in a healthcare service when you need it. You also don't self diagnose, you get advice. Often when people don't like the advice they get from healthcare professionals they get a 2nd opinion, they don't self diagnose. Sometimes the 2nd opinion is different, but a lot of the time it's not.

The bottom line is that people should be prepared to invest in quality, and I encourage everyone to educate themselves as to what that is. Often through lack of education on the subject people undervalue what the web can do for them, and at the end of the day it's the cowboys who are making all the money by throwing out only the well known buzzwords that they know people who haven't a clue, are looking for. This just leaves countless businesses with websites that they do not know yet will end up costing them more in the long run than if they had just done it right in the first place.

"Here's a car, it looks pretty doesn't it.", would you buy a car based upon that statement alone. Not a F-ing notion, you would. Now there are thousands of individuals and company's out there allegedly offering businesses' websites that vary in price from €50 to five figure sums and sometimes more. The majority of business websites in Ireland however tend to fall somewhere in between €1k - €15k. What you get at opposite ends of the scale are completely different. Anyone offering a level of service that appears to be geared towards the upper end, but advertises at the lower end is a cowboy.

Just remember what I said, the question isn't "Is it a business website?", it's "Do I completely understand my needs and is this business website going to serve those needs?"

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

I'd side with Pixel Craft and VE on this, it's a bad business model to be getting involved in and very abnormal. I'm all for only paying for results but for this business model to work for them they will be giving you very little other than an off the shelf website with a customized skin. Since your talking e-commerce you'll need a huge amount more than this in customization.

For example you say they offer a .com - do you know if you would be better off with a .ie domain? Which would be more suitable for targeting Irish customers? Who would own the domain, because if they own it you have just given away all your power.

The face book thing should be a red flag, if you can't set up your own facebook page then how are you going to be able to build a community around it. Does your industry even require a facebook page? Is it for vanity or conversions? This really isn't difficult to do yourself (just give it a go) and if you can't set it up yourself you'll find it very hard to run your own SEO and Adwords campaigns. Yes you can pay people to show you how, but if you think its ok to get people to do it for you there could be big problems, because at the end of the day your interests will always come second.

Depending on your industry i'd probably suggest avoiding facebook ads who's CPA are lower than adwords, in my experience.

As Ken said, you should definately follow your goal of getting online as there is unlimited potential there. Just maybe look for a more credible business partner, when it comes to e-commerce a "cheap" site will cost you more than it's ticket price in lost conversions, because users expect more from a website nowadays and you need a developer on call incase you have a problem.

Evil Phil

TheCostumeShop.ie (Ronan) wrote: »

... and you need a developer on call incase you have a problem.

That's very good advice - going with a cheap €300 solution isn't going to fare well when your site goes down during a christmas rush. $2,000 for an ecommerce solution isn't a bad price but their business model does sound a bit strange to me - I be watching to see how long they've been in business for and asking if they've recently changed to this business model. If they're a new company they mightn't be around in six months time, if they're an established company working of a new model, well it might work, but they've probably got a war chest to stay afloat if it doesn't.


Register a domain yourself - I just got a .com domain for 5 years for €30 and I have ownership of it. If a web development agency own your domain you'll have problems. .ie domains are well protected and take a bit of administration to get but its nothing difficult. If you have a company registration number you're laughing.

Consider trademarking the domain once you got it, a text based trademark will cost you about €140 to get. Money well spent if suey71.ie is your ecommerce site.

I can't comment on adwords but people I know who've used the Google solutions speak very highly of the support, analytics and training they recieved.

Consider banding when get the website developed - does it fit with your brand or are the company, as so many have said, simply using a template. If its a template its probably not going to fit with any existing branding you have - and its probably being used elsewhere too. Then again, that might be okay for you.

If its an ecommerce site then ask them what package they're going to use? Is it their own solution or a third party solution. When they tell you ask here or on the design forum about it to see if it a good solution. For your customers it has to be easy to buy stuff from you. If they have to jump through loads of hoops then they'll go to a competiting site.

suey71

I have my own domain name and is a .ie. I also regd. .co.uk and .eu.

Branding will be very important to me so I will trademark the name, good advice Evil phil.

I am prepared to spend up to €3000 to get the site developed and totally understand that you get what you pay for, but unfortunately its all I have. The rest will go on stock and marketing and on Murphies Law.

This is my first venture into real business and to be very honest with you all it scares the bejesus out of me, but thrills the sh!t out of me too.

If the Mods allow I'd like to post a sample of the web developement companies work.

Delete it if its inappropriate.

www.townandcountryhampers.com

About the Facebook ad campaign, I feel it would definately suit what I will be selling but until now I never truly appreciated Facebook, I thought it was for teenagers and wannabe teenagers, a little like Bebo for adolescents, and was going to depend on other areas to market and promote my new business.

I will learn about Adwords and SEO as I go along and definately want to become proficient in it, but until then I'm prepared to take the hit and let someone else manage that end of things.

Thanks for all the advice once again.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

Interesting, its a well known firm. Code is very clean and design work is nice. I met the CEO once several years back, nice guy.

Maybe what they meant is the the software is free, you pay for the site / any work done and the 50 month is hosting etc. 2k plus a 600PA retainer and the price sounds about right for a site like that, even quite good as long as you don't get a big bill for extras.

From the look of the site you pointed to, it should have a PCI cert so you should ask if PCI scans are included in the 50Euro monthly retainer as those types of questions are very important. If they play it down then be worried, as they have showen you a site that is different from what you getting.

You really don't need the Facebook option.

kenbrady

Pixelcraft wrote: »

No completely abnormal, how would anyone expect to do business this way?

You're most likely being given a template, content thrown into it, and they'll recoup costs that way. Hardly the foundation for a successful website.

Pixelcraft wrote: »

Trust me Suey71, it's not the norm, won't become it, and is only offered by cowboys.

Pixelcraft wrote: »

It's one thing offering payment terms. It's another offering to do it for free if the site doesn't turn a profit (which is a bad business model). I presume by your response you're close to this?

Nothing to do with the industry know about 50+ guys who run web development companies.

The Future
We now live in a global market. The only way to compete is to innovate. The company the OP mentions is being innovative in their pricing and business model. To use a cliche they are being disruptive. Clearly have some in the industry fearful as seen here.

Pixelcraft
You insulted the company several times, without even knowing what they were offering. The only reason you did it, was you couldn't comprehend how they can run their business like that. Do you want the industry to remain static and stale ? With no innovation or improvement for the customer.

OP
Make sure you are happy with the company doing the work for you. Then decide, would you like to put down a large up front cash lump sum. Or go with a company who is willing to bet on your future success and only charge you when you make money.

suey71 wrote: »

totally understand that you get what you pay for

The biggest load of crap. Anyone who ever says that to you is trying to scare you and attack other companies. It shows that they can't compete on value proposition and have to resort to childish tactics.

ve

kenbrady wrote: »

The biggest load of crap. Anyone who ever says that to you is trying to scare you and attack other companies. It shows that they can't compete on value proposition and have to resort to childish tactics.

As a consumer I don't think I would tend to run from the "you get what you pay for" statement. I have experienced its truth time and time again throughout my life. "There is no such thing as a free meal", "If it looks too good to be true, it probably is" are others that spring to mind. What are you going tell me next that Google doesn't benefit significantly by offering "free" web applications to end users. Do they F*ck. Who do you think is filling their data warehouses with valuable data?. The only difference there is that as consumers we are narrowly focusing on what we are gaining/losing in a traditional sense as opposed to spending the time to comprehend a larger more complex picture.

If I walked up to you on the street and made you an offer that you upon a first glance could not resist, you would probably ask me "what's the catch?". It would be responsible and diligent for you to ask that question, wouldn't it?

Typically the difference between an educated and non-educated consumer is that the more educated ones will typically ask more questions. People generally don't walk in to high street shops declaring their interest in a particular type of product and in the same meeting state that they have absolutely not idea about what it is they are purchasing. Sure that's like saying "I have no idea how to benchmark product/service quality here, so as long as you can convince me you have quality to sell, then we've got a deal". So at the end of the day the only quality you end up paying for is the quality sales pitch that you received, not the product/service.

When it comes to getting business websites put together, consumers generally don't know off the bat what they need to succeed. The reality (unfortunately) is that it will most likely be their 3rd website before they realise they actually need to invest time (in understanding what they need) and money (to get the job done properly). Why the 3rd time?, because they generally need the experience of failure to overrule that voice in their head that is telling them to just go with the cowboys. The very same cowboys that invest all their time on the pitch and little time on each customer.

I have met cowboys even recently that said "domain names are not that important", "organic listings in search engines are not important as long as you use PPC", "social networks are for spotty teenagers", "standards compliant code is not necessary because everyone uses IE". Actually on the subject of web standards, there are so many providers out there that are completely oblivious to their existence, let alone adhere to them. I have heard many successful providers say "that if the customer doesn't care about it, then we don't care about it", when referring to standards.

I guess car manufacturers didn't put seat belts in cars off the bat, it probably took a few accidents around the world before that happened. Does that mean though they should wait until a large portion of their customers ask for seat belts before they install them. I believe its up to the professionals to keep on top of their game in terms of not only sales, but their product/service also. When we go in to business we do so because we have probably invested a considerable amount of time learning a particular skill that not every one can do, and use that skill to deliver a product or service. If everyone could do that skill then why would we bother?

The truth is they can't, they just look like they can.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

I think what it comes down to is this, the OP was told he was getting a site for FREE and 50 euro thereafter when he makes money (then pay for design and any work). Which is nothing more than word play and bad sales spiel. Another company could be more upfront calling the same deliverable €2,600 and 600Pa hosting and retainer there after, plus extra's. The only thing i can compare it to is the local An Post rep quoting prices inclusive of VAT when they are zero vat rated.

Granted they qualify it with if you earn 1500 PM, but then again if your not making 50Euro per day gross in any business you won't be able to sustain yourself for long. Remember this might be no reflection on the company only the sales guys proposition.

Personally i hate this kind of word play in sales and think few businesses would have time for a deal phrased like this so it's clearly designed at people who are hoping to get the best set up for as little as possible. If it works then great, the OP asked for advice and having people like PixelCraft, who run firms that do similar (notice he didn't pitch his services) is helpful to the community here. Hopefully by the opposed opinions in the thread he will realise that it's definitely going to have additional expenses (maybe even double i'd estimate) in the first year to get the site perfect, if that's what he wants.

calahans

I'm definitely with ken brady on this one. They are just offering a different model.

They are offering the website for free initially, bar the costs of the design. €1000 for a graphic design to design the look is very good value (depending on the designer).

Tell them to forget the ad words campaign - you can set that up yourself very quickly. Plus there will be enough costs associated with the campaign, depending on clicks. Ditto the facebook page. So you have saved €500. Also find out what you get for the few hundred on training - what would it be on? Uploading content? See if it makes sense.

If you dont make money, and chance are you may not, then you limit your financial exposure. If you do make money they are into you for €60 a month. Thats €500 p.a.

If you were to get an ecommerce site built by some places it could cost 3-5k. So you need to run the site for about 4-8 years before you come in around those figures.

kenbrady

TheCostumeShop.ie (Ronan) wrote: »

The only thing i can compare it to is the local An Post rep quoting prices inclusive of VAT when they are zero vat rated.

How can you think that it is anything like that ? That is in no way comparable.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

Don't you think that an non designed website is kind of like the emperors new clothes? If its not really there how is it valuable is it?

Granted its their own platform but imagine someone offer a free OScommerce site and would only change you for the design work - they'd get taken to a padded room.

Pixelcraft

calahans wrote: »

I'm definitely with ken brady on this one. They are just offering a different model.

They are offering the website for free initially, bar the costs of the design. €1000 for a graphic design to design the look is very good value (depending on the designer).

From my understanding, that's a different quote. So they are offering a free site until it performs, or alternatively if the OP wants a custom design then it costs upfront.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

kenbrady wrote: »

How can you think that it is anything like that ? That is in no way comparable.

Cause the OP said that going with the company would cost him 2,600 in the first year for the "Free" site, assuming it preforms - at least that's how i read his post.

I think there's confusion over the quote, OP could you clarify?

Atlas_IRL

Well i think the only way they can do this really is too have designers that are very good at modding os software. They change it around to suit the customers needs and if it works they get paid, i doubt they could support themselves if they spent a good while on making a new website from scratch. Maybe they have their own custom made software that they could easily edit. This would enable them to offer this business model.

Hellm0

Ok hmm,
I don't know how many of you actually work in the web design/development industry but I have for a while now, in both the US and Ireland. I have yet to come across -ANY- company which would even propose such a pricing scheme. Yes, it is good practice to maintain a good relationship with your chosen website developer however, they are not your business partners and should not be allowed to assume such a role.

If I were you OP I would demand documentation, get them to list out costs, timeliness and specifications for the functionality of the site. Do not accept ambiguity or you will end up paying for it. Use this documentation as a baseline to compare with competing companies. In the Irish development market right now there should be competition.

As for the marketing stuff you will find that is relatively simple, if you want the most from your site I would recommend learning about Adwords etc yourself as this will be an ongoing requirement for the success of your site and could be expensive in the long term if you don't.

For 3000 euro you won't get a custom developed site, you are going to get a customizable web application. This is not necessarily a bad thing but it will have a huge effect upon hosting costs and site functionality. Grill any company you see about the functionality their system provides you, make up a check list of the features you would like and see what matches up. If you can get a decent content management system you won't have to contact anyone when you want to publish content - you do it yourself.

Honestly, the best thing you can do is hedge your bets. Go see the competition and come back with numbers and details speccs, then make a decision.

Do NOT change your business model for the sake of saving a few thousand now. It will hurt you down the line.

H.

kenbrady

Hellm0 wrote: »

Do NOT change your business model for the sake of saving a few thousand now. It will hurt you down the line.

Who do you think is changing their business model ?

thorbarry

Hellm0 wrote: »

Yes, it is good practice to maintain a good relationship with your chosen website developer however, they are not your business partners and should not be allowed to assume such a role.

Spot on

calahans

Hellm0 wrote: »

Ok hmm,
I don't know how many of you actually work in the web design/development industry but I have for a while now, in both the US and Ireland. I have yet to come across -ANY- company which would even propose such a pricing scheme.
H.

It is a high-bred between the straightforward lump sum and the SAAS model of say shopify, or in Ireland swiftstore.

Your advice is good though. Shop around as you would when purchasing anything!

Hellm0

kenbrady wrote: »

Who do you think is changing their business model ?

Say I am the owner of a store that sells light fixtures. I rent my location from a landlord and buy my stock on credit from suppliers. The landlord does not own the sign I put up out front with my company name, nor does he have a right to a percentage of my profits exceeding the agreed rent. Normally, businesses do not trade any ownership rights for goods or services.

Going into a partnership with a web development company in the way described sounds dangerous because it differs from this structure. A website is similar to a real store in the respect that it is a public facing part of your business which your company should maintain control and ownership of. From the sound of it, these guys would probably require some form ownership stake to make such a transaction valuable to them.

Due to the relatively low cost of a website in comparison to the costs of buying a real life location, it makes sense to just put the money up front and buy the thing as opposed to going down what could potentially be a disastrous business venture. Sure, the website might be free initially, but down the line there would be complications, I guarantee it.

You assume all the risk whereas, for a relatively small investment, they get a foothold in your business.

kenbrady

Hellm0 wrote: »

Say I am the owner of a store that sells light fixtures. I rent my location from a landlord and buy my stock on credit from suppliers. The landlord does not own the sign I put up out front with my company name, nor does he have a right to a percentage of my profits exceeding the agreed rent. Normally, businesses do not trade any ownership rights for goods or services.

Light Fitting Company - physical
Shop - rented from landlord
Stock - on credit from suppliers
Shop front - you can put your own signs up on it
Rent - as agreed, no percentage of profits.

(there could be an issue with who owns the site, which no one mentioned, but either way this is correct)
Light Fitting Company - Online, using the OP company
Shop - rented from web company
Stock - on credit from suppliers
Shop front - you can put your own signs up on it (design)
Rent - as agreed, no percentage of profits.

Hellm0 wrote: »

Sure, the website might be free initially, but down the line there would be complications, I guarantee it.

I've have never really seen a truely "disruptive" company in action. See it here. It has confused and scared other people in the industry.

kenbrady

Hellm0 wrote: »

You assume all the risk whereas, for a relatively small investment, they get a foothold in your business.

Customer has Zero risks.
They have no foothold in your business. They only get paid an agreed amount if the customer makes a profit. If the customer wants to change supplier, quit they can do so. It has nothing to do with teh web development company.
How can you not understand how business works ?

CamperMan

walk away from it.. sounds odd