We are in a national crisis, where is our government?

P_1

OK so, most of the country is currently buried under snow or is closely resembling a free version of 7up on Ice.

We have now had two critical transport failures in getting people out of Dublin City Centre.

The country has essentially run out of material to grit the roads.

Rural areas have been without power and water.

What I want to know is where our government have been thoughout all this? In particular, where are Ministers Dempsey and Gormley, who's portfolios are responsible for dealing with these current crises?

Is it going to take some poor unfortunate to die for our government to show some leadership in this crisis, one which is certainly as serious as the banking crisis?

aurelius79

Funny story, some 70 year old woman cracked her head after slipping on some ice on the footpath yesterday. Half an hour after she's taken to hospital, the whole path is covered in grit. So yes, I believe someone will have to die before the current reactionary government takes serious action.

ninty9er

It's not majorly linked to central government. Gritting and water supplies are the business of local authorities. "Where are our councils?" is a more pertinent question where action has not been taken.

Kristopherus

All I'm seriously wondering is that it took so long for a thread like this. I too am wondering where The Gormless One is. Last time we saw him was after the Copenhagen Conference. He should be out shovelling like the rest of us. Useless Git:eek: As for Dempsey, so long as Meath is not under a metre of snow, he dose'nt give two flying fcuks:eek:. These are members of a govt that sunk 4.5 billion into Anglo Irish, yet won't provide funding for gritting of at least the majority of the roads and footpaths.

imme

ninty9er wrote: »

It's not majorly linked to central government. Gritting and water supplies are the business of local authorities. "Where are our councils?" is a more pertinent question where action has not been taken.

Does the Fianna Fáil led government not bear responsibility, what happened to leadership. Why hasn't Cowen and his ministers responsible not held a press conference, similar to the toxins in pork issue 2 years ago.
Where's Cowen???

Sand

This is not a national crisis, it is a bit of cold weather. That it is confused with a national crisis is merely a symptom of how poor and feckless our local government is.

The real national crisis is that our local government and services are incapable of planning for or dealing with a few centimeters of snow in the capital. I have some sympathy for the argument that the weather was exceptionally bad, but it was exceptionally bad back on December 19th...fast forward a couple of weeks and local government can no longer claim to be surprised given there is no expected break in the weather.

On top of the flooding prior to this there is something deeply wrong with local government in this country. Mind you, given that people elect the likes of Stroke Fahy to their county councils, maybe theyre getting what they deserve?

ninty9er

imme wrote: »

Does the Fianna Fáil led government not bear responsibility, what happened to leadership. Why hasn't Cowen and his ministers responsible not held a press conference, similar to the toxins in pork issue 2 years ago.
Where's Cowen???

Agriculture is a multi-billion €uro export industry with responsibility lying witht he department of Agriculture and Food.

Gritting and water supplies are the responsibility of city and county councils. They have new budgets as of 1 January, to spend as they wish.

As already stated, it is not a national crisis. It's snow and ice, was there a state of emergency every winter in the 50s?

sceptre

Local council issue as people have said. Some councils are better than others it seems. For almost all of you, it's a local call to ring and complain about (and to) the people you voted into your local authorities only six months ago if you're less than impressed.

Overheal

pithater1 wrote: »

OK so, most of the country is currently buried under snow or is closely resembling a free version of 7up on Ice.

We have now had two critical transport failures in getting people out of Dublin City Centre.

The country has essentially run out of material to grit the roads.

Rural areas have been without power and water.

What I want to know is where our government have been thoughout all this? In particular, where are Ministers Dempsey and Gormley, who's portfolios are responsible for dealing with these current crises?

Is it going to take some poor unfortunate to die for our government to show some leadership in this crisis, one which is certainly as serious as the banking crisis?

Rawr Katrina black people rabble rabble.

Lets hop over to the United States for the Weather:

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/storms/winter/2010-01-06-cold-snap_N.htm

There's been up to 50-60 inches of snow buildup in certain parts of the country. Florida is below freezing. There have been 4 Hypothermia deaths so far.

But you know what? While this is a bad winter on the books, this kind of weather is not uncommon in many areas. And I can't recall it being ever referred to as a National Crisis. Nor is it now. Despite being a big headline.

Cop On. Calling it a Crisis is hyperbole and another chance for dissenters to voice their frustrations at the govt. I wouldnt be a big fan dont get me wrong, but its not their damn fault is it?

P_1

Well I would consider thousands of people being forced to walk home in sub zero conditions from the center of our Capitol on two seperate occasions within one week to be a significant enough problem to merit the title of a crisis.

A significant number of people being stuck in their homes running out of water and electricity would also merit a similar title.

While the responsibility for providing water and gritting lies with local government it is clear that they are struggling with this responsibility and thus, the government should step in at this stage. Did they not do the same during the floods a few weeks ago?

Fratton Fred

when my brother in law serviced my car, he commented on the rust on the screw heads and said you can always tell a car that is from the UK because they use salt on the roads.

i presumed from this that in Ireland there was an alternative method of gritting. i didn't realise they just don't bother.

it is a local council issue though, not a central government one.

Eliot Rosewater

pithater1 wrote: »

Is it going to take some poor unfortunate to die for our government to show some leadership in this crisis, one which is certainly as serious as the banking crisis?

People have died. Brian Crowleys brother died driving to mass last week; I heard the journey to the Church from his house was less than a mile. He was in a rush, and you know with the ice. Its a very sad story.

I heard another story (unconfirmed, from Waterford City) that a girl, after being dropped home by taxi, slipped in her porch, got knocked out and died of hypothermia during the night.

So I suppose its really a question of: what do you want government to do? A lot of it is about people themselves changing their habits. No non-essential driving at all. Slow down, etc.

Kristopherus

Govts are there to provide leadership. There has'nt been an iota of leadership evident since the start of this freeze-up. As for councils having money since ist January, they will be lucky if the get notification of their 2010 allocation by the end of January.And it could be Easter before the cash is lodged to their accounts.

LoanShark

Who cares if Dublin has a bit of snow?, The North West parts of the country have been covered in snow for nearly 3 weeks!..

You cannot seriously blame Fianna Fail for the this!

It is not a national crisis,It is a cold snap in the weather that loads of other countries are going through at this present moment too!

This is a way of life that we are all going have to get used to, because it will become more frequent..

Nobody can be blamed for the preparation for this, Because it is not the norm for us to have it..Take for example Donegal Co. Co. have used a years supply of grit in three weeks..

So, for Dublin to be crying and expecting sympathy from the rest of us, Tough! Live with it! (Because that is what would be said to us for living outside of Dublin!)

Liam Byrne

Just wait until Sean Fitzpatrick or some other bwanker scheister can't drive their merc or get their helicopter off the ground; then FF will come running to rescue them.

Until then, though, the ordinary people of Ireland are on their own.

LoanShark

imme wrote: »

Why hasn't Cowen and his ministers responsible not held a press conference, similar to the toxins in pork issue 2 years ago.

Because more people eat pork than snow??

Badabing

It's up to every local council to provide the local services to the people, we had elections in june and every Labour Fine Gael Socialist etc.. said we need change at local level well we got it now they must prove it.

imme

Sand wrote: »

The real national (1) crisis is that our local government (1) and services are incapable of planning for or dealing with a few centimeters of snow in the capital. I have some sympathy for the argument that the weather was exceptionally bad, but it was exceptionally bad back on December 19th...fast forward a couple of weeks and local government can no longer claim to be surprised given there is no expected break in the weather.

On top of the flooding prior to this there is something deeply wrong with local government in this country. Mind you, given that people elect the likes of Stroke Fahy (2) to their county councils, maybe theyre getting what they deserve?

(1) you say national crisis and then you say local authorities. They're local authorities, can you ascribe a national characteristic to them, you accuse them all of being being feckless etc.
Are they all the same.

(2) you mention the calibre of person elected to local government and you say that people get what they deserve. Are you mixing up the day to day running issues of local authorities with the reserved functions of elected councillors.

Overheal

pithater1 wrote: »

Well I would consider thousands of people being forced to walk home in sub zero conditions from the center of our Capitol on two seperate occasions within one week to be a significant enough problem to merit the title of a crisis.

A significant number of people being stuck in their homes running out of water and electricity would also merit a similar title.

While the responsibility for providing water and gritting lies with local government it is clear that they are struggling with this responsibility and thus, the government should step in at this stage. Did they not do the same during the floods a few weeks ago?

Again you're bringing up facts of life for cold winter climates. Closures of airports, stranded motorists, deaths, blackouts, etc.

But again, this has never to the best of my knowledge merited National Crisis status.

2 Crises show up when you google national crisis [wiki]: Sputnik; and the Cuban Missile Crisis :rolleyes:

edit: Crisis

1.
a. A crucial or decisive point or situation; a turning point.
b. An unstable condition, as in political, social, or economic affairs, involving an impending abrupt or decisive change.
2. A sudden change in the course of a disease or fever, toward either improvement or deterioration.
3. An emotionally stressful event or traumatic change in a person's life.
4. A point in a story or drama when a conflict reaches its highest tension and must be resolved.

Sand

(1) you say national crisis and then you say local authorities. They're local authorities, can you ascribe a national characteristic to them, you accuse them all of being being feckless etc.
Are they all the same.

Tell you what - assume I put " " around the words national crisis.

(2) you mention the calibre of person elected to local government and you say that people get what they deserve. Are you mixing up the day to day running issues of local authorities with the reserved functions of elected councillors.

Im certainly not confusing the role and responsibilities of the local authorities with the functions of the elected national government.

nesf

As others have said, it's not a national crisis. Christ, people in Dublin have to walk home and they call it a national crisis? We've had people in rural areas running out of food and fuel for heating for weeks at this stage yet no mention of a crisis. I despair about some people. I really do. Having to walk home in the cold constitutes a national crisis? Heaven forbid if ye had no water for 2 weeks similar to parts of Cork this year etc.

Kristopherus

2 Crises show up when you google national crisis [wiki]: Sputnik; and the Cuban Missile Crisis


Maybe you should have used google.ie:D

imme

Sand wrote: »

Tell you what - assume I put " " around the words national crisis.



Im certainly not confusing the role and responsibilities of the local authorities with the functions of the elected national government.

I'm not sure that you answered my questions, ah well. :cool:good for you.

Overheal

nesf wrote: »

As others have said, it's not a national crisis. Christ, people in Dublin have to walk home and they call it a national crisis? We've had people in rural areas running out of food and fuel for heating for weeks at this stage yet no mention of a crisis. I despair about some people. I really do. Having to walk home in the cold constitutes a national crisis? Heaven forbid if ye had no water for 2 weeks similar to parts of Cork this year etc.

I made a habit of walking home in Ennis from school. You know. The Nylon trousers, the freezing rain? Yeah it was harsh. All 2.3 miles of it. But I wouldnt go write a congressman about it. Put it that way.

Kristopherus wrote: »

2 Crises show up when you google national crisis [wiki]: Sputnik; and the Cuban Missile Crisis

Maybe you should have used google.ie

To smaller countries small problems seem monumental [thats a joke. settle down]

ateam

This is not a national crisis.

Byron85

pithater1 wrote: »

Well I would consider thousands of people being forced to walk home in sub zero conditions from the center of our Capitol on two seperate occasions within one week to be a significant enough problem to merit the title of a crisis.

Welcome to life for the majority of people outside of the Capital. Boo hoo.

Overheal

In a similar vein, the London bus bombings in 06 would have far more property as a Crisis. Where Tens of thousands of people were left stranded. If not millions. I forget at this stage. I suppose it was the turning point/crisis that birthed mainstream Tweeting in the form of Eye Witness phone camera footage; and the instalation of Emergency Service Overrides for telecommunications...

But OK, next point I think the OP is asking: is the regulatory authority (City Planning Comittee, whomever) doing their job? Was their eventuality plan sufficient in the face of current weather and traffic conditions? Did the energy grid fail? Why did it fail and what can be done to adress that failure?

bangersandmash

LoanShark wrote: »

Who cares if Dublin has a bit of snow?, The North West parts of the country have been covered in snow for nearly 3 weeks!..

...

So, for Dublin to be crying and expecting sympathy from the rest of us, Tough! Live with it! (Because that is what would be said to us for living outside of Dublin!)

Predictable response. One poster moans about having to walk home, and suddenly the entire population of Dublin is crying and expecting sympathy

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Just wait until Sean Fitzpatrick or some other bwanker scheister can't drive their merc or get their helicopter off the ground; then FF will come running to rescue them.

Until then, though, the ordinary people of Ireland are on their own.

Yeah, cos the snow only affects 'the ordinary people' . .

I'm a member of FF (as you know) and at 4pm this afternoon 'the party' turned up on my doorstep with a snowplough, a bucket of salt and a nice hot cup of cocoa. . Feck you 'ordinary people', you're on your own !

ninty9er

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yeah, cos the snow only affects 'the ordinary people' . .

I'm a member of FF (as you know) and at 4pm this afternoon 'the party' turned up on my doorstep with a snowplough, a bucket of salt and a nice hot cup of cocoa. . Feck you 'ordinary people', you're on your own !

I never got that memo, must have been a snow related delay with the servers in Mount Street :P. Well feck it anyway, and there was me sitting at home with my Lemsip all day. Wonder will Maurice O'Donoghue be out around Munster with the plow again tomorrow??

LoanShark

bangersandmash wrote: »

Predictable response. One poster moans about having to walk home, and suddenly the entire population of Dublin is crying and expecting sympathy

Well, RTE news and all the national papers as well as people posting on this site kinda adds fuel to the fire!

freewheeler

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yeah, cos the snow only affects 'the ordinary people' . .

I'm a member of FF (as you know) and at 4pm this afternoon 'the party' turned up on my doorstep with a snowplough, a bucket of salt and a nice hot cup of cocoa. . Feck you 'ordinary people', you're on your own !

Fianna Failure policy in a nutshell...

Dannyboy83

I thought Cork was pretty good in fairness, although watch out for the end of the M8 when you come out at Watergrasshill, there have been a lot of crashes there recently apparently as people come off the motorway which is well gritted and onto the dual carriageway which is 'less' gritted, and not being aware of the change.

My sister was trying to get home for 4 hours in Dublin today tho, so I guess things are worse in the East.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I thought Cork was pretty good in fairness, although watch out for the end of the M8 when you come out at Watergrasshill, there have been a lot of crashes there recently apparently as people come off the motorway which is well gritted and onto the dual carriageway which is 'less' gritted, and not being aware of the change.

My sister was trying to get home for 4 hours in Dublin today tho, so I guess things are worse in the East.

Cork city is fine, go 10-20 miles inland and you'll find most non-primary routes have been ice rinks for the past 3 weeks or so. The northern part of the county has been the worst effected.

JoeyKudo

Wahay, first post!

Well, first things first, the calls to declare a national emergency are a bit much. It's unusual for us, granted, but the levels of snowfall haven't been mind boggling. For the country to declare a national emergency would, frankly, be embarrassing.

The issue really is, as usual, a lack of foresight and preparation on behalf of government (to an extent) and particularly local authorities. How much could it cost to store grit on the off change that MAYBE something like this would happen? I don't buy the fact that it was too expensive or too inconvenient to prepare for this.

The only segment of society we should be concerned with is the elderly; it must be very difficult to get out with conditions as they are. But that's not a reason to call a national emergency. Again, the opposition make themselves sound silly while the government flounders. Great bunch of lads.

Anyway, I love the snow. Snowball fights, snowmen, no school! What more could anyone want?

97i9y3941

i dont buy into this bull of if we gave the farmers grit to do the roads it would lead to liable claims,they already gave the farmers contracts in the uk and north to grit the backroads,so less of this liable/our overtime would be cut rubbish please...

Taxipete29

To be fair we have been in an national crisis for sometime now. The weather has just heaped more s**t onto the pile.

I considered the flooding before Christmas a crisis. The snow is not. It is however extremely poor management. This snow was well forecast. Why did nobody think to send out the gritters this morning. Alot of this could of been avoided.

Councils are a joke
Dublin Bus are a joke
People trying to rev their way out of the ice is beyond a joke.

Overheal

lol, the snow IS the flooding. its just frozen the flooding never when away, **** just got colder.

Alcatel

Not a national issue? We're a nation of 4 million people, there's countries where local councils are bigger. What we need from our government is central leadership - the government has a high level overview of the situation, and should be coordinating between all the branches of the state.

Let's say local council in one area needs extra resources, say Gardai, and an hours drive away there's a bunch of Guards with nothing to do? (Speaking in pure theory.) Well, who's going to better coordinate that than the government?

Slydice

Alcatel wrote: »

Not a national issue? We're a nation of 4 million people, there's countries where local councils are bigger. What we need from our government is central leadership - the government has a high level overview of the situation, and should be coordinating between all the branches of the state.

Let's say local council in one area needs extra resources, say Gardai, and an hours drive away there's a bunch of Guards with nothing to do? (Speaking in pure theory.) Well, who's going to better coordinate that than the government?

I was thinking something along those lines aswell.

A good portion of the country seems to be in trouble.

The local councils can only use their local supplies and services.

Wouldn't it be good if the national government could step in. They could look at what each council has and see if anything can be loaned to places where the snow has hit really badly.

On the news, they seem to be saying that money isn't the issue here. If it isn't, then spend some by trying to coordinate the resources of the country to help the worst affected areas.

bmaxi

It's not a crisis. When Guinness trucks can't get through to Tullamore, then it'll be a crisis.

RedPlanet

It actually is a tough situation.
For one, we don't get enough snow to merit purchasing a large fleet of snow removal equipment.
For two, we have too many bleeding roads for such a small country/population. It makes gritting a much bigger job than it needs to be.

Personally, as a pedestrian i think we should change some laws so that a place of business/homeowner/landlord is legally responsible for the snow/ice removal from the footpaths fronting their properties. I think this is the way it's done in USA and Canada.

I mean come on, a bloody snow shovel could clear lots of ice and snow from our footpaths.

Liam Byrne

LoanShark wrote: »

Well, RTE news and all the national papers as well as people posting on this site kinda adds fuel to the fire!

RTE News & the "national" papers are all based in Dublin, and - since it would be pointed out in relation to resources or population in general - there are more people in Dublin, so there's a good chance that there will be more people from Dublin on here, even if it were the same percentage.

I can never figure out why Ireland has to come to a standstill after 2 inches of snow and a bit of frost.

And listening to the radio this morning before getting up, I could have sworn that there would be a foot of snow outside; I got up, and there's the quarter-inch remains of yesterday's flurry......it's frozen, so it's slippy, and there's no water (there's irony if there ever was such a thing) and the heating's off, but it's (a) manageable and (b) far less of an issue than it would be for someone in Donegal or Wicklow under 2 feet of snow, or for a seventy-year-old who lives alone.

So it's not a "national crisis" by any stretch of the imagination.

****e organisation and lack of foresight (as usual), as well as no social services or support, but not a "national crisis".

drkpower

Alcatel wrote: »

Not a national issue? We're a nation of 4 million people, there's countries where local councils are bigger. What we need from our government is central leadership - the government has a high level overview of the situation, and should be coordinating between all the branches of the state.

Let's say local council in one area needs extra resources, say Gardai, and an hours drive away there's a bunch of Guards with nothing to do? (Speaking in pure theory.) Well, who's going to better coordinate that than the government?

ffs...

The Government is there for many reasons; to legislate, to formulate policy, to communicate that policy to the people etc etc. It is not there to coordinate between the Gardai and local councils; they are capable of doing that themselves.

The problem with so many people is that anytime something goes wrong, they pressurise the 'government' or their local TD to sort it out when it is not their role. This incentivises the politics of parochialism. And then the same people bemoan 'parish pump politics' and how it is the ruination of our country.

Liam Byrne

RedPlanet wrote: »

Personally, as a pedestrian i think we should change some laws so that a place of business/homeowner/landlord is legally responsible for the snow/ice removal from the footpaths fronting their properties. I think this is the way it's done in USA and Canada.

You can't even fill a pothole outside your house in this country, or wipe a floor without sticking up a massive "Wet Floor" sign, in case someone slips and decides to sue!

How the hell could you convince someone that - despite them slipping - your actions had actually reduced their chances of slipping ?

You'd be broke and in need of public liability insurance in no time.

drkpower

RedPlanet wrote: »

Personally, as a pedestrian i think we should change some laws so that a place of business/homeowner/landlord is legally responsible for the snow/ice removal from the footpaths fronting their properties. I think this is the way it's done in USA and Canada.

And what if you arent at home when it snows/freezes.....or your genuine attempts to remove the snow make it more dangerous..?

I can accept a general duty on a homeowner to practically remove huge amounts of snow (as per Canada/US) in order to allow people to physically get through, but to hold homeowners responsible for injuries sustained on icy paths which were not uncleared or on paths where an attempt was made to de-ice them is ridiculously onerous.

RedPlanet

drkpower wrote: »

And what if you arent at home when it snows/freezes.....or your genuine attempts to remove the snow make it more dangerous..?

I'm sure some leeway is afforded. Say, 24 hours?
Secondly, if you can't remove a bit of snow and end up making it more dangerous then you'd be rather incompetent.

drkpower wrote: »

I can accept a general duty on a homeowner to practically remove huge amounts of snow (as per Canada/US) in order to allow people to physically get through, but to hold homeowners responsible for injuries sustained on icy paths which were not uncleared or on paths where an attempt was made to de-ice them is ridiculously onerous.

In fairness i didn't say they'd be liable for injuries on a public footpath.
But ask yourself this: how come this system works in a country of 280million people?

Alcatel

drkpower wrote: »

ffs...

The Government is there for many reasons; to legislate, to formulate policy, to communicate that policy to the people etc etc. It is not there to coordinate between the Gardai and local councils; they are capable of doing that themselves.

The problem with so many people is that anytime something goes wrong, they pressurise the 'government' or their local TD to sort it out when it is not their role. This incentivises the politics of parochialism. And then the same people bemoan 'parish pump politics' and how it is the ruination of our country.

When a country is affected, nationwide, by something it is usually best to have a central point of contact to run things by for effective coordination. That works too in business day to day and a bunch of other areas.

You need to have people with a high level view of all that happens who can connect random dots A and Z to one another in a way not done by people on the ground who can only see the snow in front of them.

OldJay

RedPlanet wrote: »

In fairness i didn't say they'd be liable for injuries on a public footpath.
But ask yourself this: how come this system works in a country of 280million people?

Apathetic Ireland (on the ground as well as at the polls) likes to sit on its hands during crises like this. Also instead of actually doing what any normal decent person would do in clearing paths and driveways of snow, it likes to spend its time composing an 'outraged' email or spend on an internet forum or moaning about a government that it never bothered to get vote against.

drkpower

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'm sure some leeway is afforded. Say, 24 hours?
Secondly, if you can't remove a bit of snow and end up making it more dangerous then you'd be rather incompetent.

Have you tried it?
I have - hammering away at the ice last weekend, using salth, the whole lot - at it for an hour - managed to make a reasonable track for the wheels of my car but it was impossible to remove it all and what was left was a number of 'ridges' which while better for grip, could trip up someone. So what happens if someone does trip on one fo the ridges? Am I liable? Am I expected to do 2 or 3 or 4 hours work every day it is freezing?

RedPlanet wrote: »

In fairness i didn't say they'd be liable for injuries on a public footpath.
But ask yourself this: how come this system works in a country of 280million people?

So what is the obligation you want to enforce? If you just mean that there is a general duty to remove massive snow drifts, fine, but if there is an obligation to remove ice/frost/snow generally, you need to be able to deal with the consequences for people who end up being injured by those who remove it in a haphazard or unsatisfactory way.

These things are never as simple as 'you should have to do X or Y'; you might want to see what system actually operates in N. America

dan_d

In Europe you're obliged to clear your footpath and the roof of your house - if it gets that heavy. No bullsh*t.

As for our Government - they're on their extended Christmas holidays, aren't they? Naturally!

I see this weather is predicted to last til March (breakingnews.ie). I don't know whether I really believe that, but maybe we'll have got the hang of it by then.