Impact of bad weather on 2010 Subscriptions

billy3sheets

I reckon the bad weather in Nov, Dec (& Jan ?) and the resultant course closures will have a very negative effect on 2010 renewals. Many of those who were already borderline about their renewals will have had an extended break from golf and lost the bug. Coupled with July & August closures, this will be enough to convince them that it's not worth the money.
With already strained memberships will put a lot of pressure on clubs to remain open or to find ways to cut corners. Alternatively, some creative ways of inducing members to renew:
- reduced subs with increased competition fees to spread load
- staggered payments, for example quarterly
- a number of free green fees for guests
- free meal vouchers at the club restaurant
- free lessons from pro

The_Kew_Tour

Can see your point. I think clubs will loose out this year unless they reduce fees.

Also Tiger Woods not playing will see bit less interest in game from new comers who watch Golf on TV.

Im trying look at membership at clubs in Dublin but will only join if they give me good discount as days of paying ott are well gone.

golfdiscount

Hu , as much as I would to see club subs come down, I doubt if they will, a lot of clubs are struggling at moment, and they need as much cash as possible to pay back bank loans, not to mention the club staff wages, I know of clubs alresdy that have cut their green staff already,
Clubs will have to start diong better deals for guests and societies,so as to get more grteen fees in.. There is alot of society golfers out there,

Sandwich

I would say no impact at all.

Winter golf is played by a hard core of committed golfers who will rejoin despite a weather enforced Nov/Dec/Jan break. The less committed, mayby join/maybe not join, are the fair weather golfers who decide in the first few months of the year if they are going to play golf that year.

For this reason, memberships are more likely to be affected by the weather in March/April. If it is good, they may be attracted out to play and decide to renew. If bad, and they have no impulse to get out playing, then they may not renew their sub. Even if the weather improves later in the spring they may already have taken the decision, or will decide that they wont get value from it at that stage, and instead opt for greenfee/society golf to see them through the rest of the summer.

billy3sheets

adrian280582 wrote: »

Can see your point. I think clubs will loose out this year unless they reduce fees.

Also Tiger Woods not playing will see bit less interest in game from new comers who watch Golf on TV.

Im trying look at membership at clubs in Dublin but will only join if they give me good discount as days of paying ott are well gone.

Well, for many clubs, reducing subs is not really an option. The club needs to realise a certain income but can only sustain a certain number of members.
For example
500 members @ e1K = e500K income but there's no way a club could sustain 1000 members @ e500 for the same income. I feel myself that clubs need to retain members by making the package more attractive and easier payment terms.
Staff at many courses have been trimmed to the bare minimum. Perhaps members could help with course & clubhouse maintenence?

Most clubs are not in it for a profit but have to balance the books at year's end.

billy3sheets

Sandwich wrote: »

For this reason, memberships are more likely to be affected by the weather in March/April. If it is good, they may be attracted out to play and decide to renew. If bad, and they have no impulse to get out playing, then they may not renew their sub. Even if the weather improves later in the spring they may already have taken the decision, or will decide that they wont get value from it at that stage, and instead opt for greenfee/society golf to see them through the rest of the summer.

I take your point Sandwich. However:
1. Aren't subs due in Jan rather than March/April?
2. I think there are some non-hardcore golfers who will play during winter who will be disappointed with the non-availability of golf this winter.

Sandwich

billy3sheets wrote: »

I take your point Sandwich. However:
1. Aren't subs due in Jan rather than March/April?
2. I think there are some non-hardcore golfers who will play during winter who will be disappointed with the non-availability of golf this winter.

1. 'Due' in Jan alright, but most clubs give at least a month or two to pay, and even at that, are unlikely in this climate to eject people who add on another month or two even after that. In practice most clubs subs income peaks in Feb and March, and is still significant in April as people come back out to play.

2. By hardcore, i meant interested in playing in the winter at all. A lot of golfers put away the clubs in October and only get them out again in the spring when some decent weather comes along.

Unglika Norse

I reckon that there will be quite a few clubs this year that wont be able to wait until april before turning up the heat to get subs paid.

Sandwich

Unglika Norse wrote: »

I reckon that there will be quite a few clubs this year that wont be able to wait until april before turning up the heat to get subs paid.

I would read it the other way - clubs will be extra wary this year of putting pressure on people in case they push them away.

Bottom line revenue, i.e. total paid subs, is what matters, not what month of the year you receive the payment. Club expenses are spread throughout the year - you dont need it all in Feb.

Unglika Norse

Perhaps your right but clubs have very heavy expenditure early in the year.

Course maintainence becomes paramount and a lot of clubs will have given commitments to banks on outstanding loans based on income in the early part of the year when subs are generally due.

Clubs will also need to know much earlier this year than in the past as to what level of membership they are going to have and will then make their plans and draw up their budgets accordingly.

They will not and probably cannot as in the past be prepared to wait for members to decided when they are going to pay for the facilities provided as the certainty of new memberships and greens fees will no doubt diminish. Also bear in mind that quite a few clubs will have lost a huge chunk of green fee income usually generated over the christmas & new year period as this cold snap continues.

A member can either afford to pay their subs or they can't and it is incumbent on each party to ascertain the situation earlier rather than later for the well being of all.

Mister Sifter

Will people really decide not to rejoin their club because they couldn't get to play golf for two weeks in the height of winter?

Sounds like the wishful thinking of those desperately hoping that clubs will lower their annual fees.

charlieIRL

i haven't heard anything from my club about this years sub.

jimjo

I wish clubs in Dublin would reduce their fees even further but I suppose there’s only so far they can go.

I see Hollystown, who have dropped their fee’s by a few hundred (still not worth it IMO as they close the course so much), have an add on Today FM, to get floating golfers. Must be expensive to run an add on morning radio.

The course I play was closed for the best part of three weeks, well I presume it was closed, I didn’t make any enquiry’s but it closes at the first sign of frost. It may have been a blessing in disguise as it was that cold out there it mightn’t have been worth it.

Daithio9

The weather will have zero impact on people's decision as to whether to renew membership or not, their financial stuation will be the only determining factor.

brick tamland

Daithio9 wrote: »

The weather will have zero impact on people's decision as to whether to renew membership or not, their financial stuation will be the only determining factor.

Yeah I reckon thats true although I reckon the lost a right few bob in green fee's/bar income ect. Its got to be having an effect on finances

Howjoe1

I'm a member of Navan Golf Club. Is it the only club to increase subs this year ?:mad:

flat course, often waterlogged and unplayable plus closed through out the year for racing. thinking twice about renewal.

MisterAnarchy

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Will people really decide not to rejoin their club because they couldn't get to play golf for two weeks in the height of winter?

Sounds like the wishful thinking of those desperately hoping that clubs will lower their annual fees.

2 Weeks ,are you codding me ?
Many people havent hit a ball in nearly 10 weeks.
November was the wettest on record,it rained nearly every day and December has been a freeze out.
Courses have been closed due to waterlogging or frost and on most days that they were open it was raining.
We havent had a decent summer in 3 years ,it seems to rain more than ever and there are very few calm days.
Even on a fine summers day you could get a gale.
Our climate is becoming completely unstable and unsuitable for golf.
I think alot of people will be taking a long hard look at whether their subscription is value for money considering how appalling the climate has been lately.
On another point,Subs should be due in late March ,not Jan .

Daithio9

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

2 Weeks ,are you codding me ?
Many people havent hit a ball in nearly 10 weeks.
November was the wettest on record,it rained nearly every day and December has been a freeze out.
Courses have been closed due to waterlogging or frost and on most days that they were open it was raining.
We havent had a decent summer in 3 years ,it seems to rain more than ever and there are very few calm days.
Even on a fine summers day you could get a gale.
Our climate is becoming completely unstable and unsuitable for golf.
I think alot of people will be taking a long hard look at whether their subscription is value for money considering how appalling the climate has been lately.
On another point,Subs should be due in late March ,not Jan .

All perfectly reasonable reasons to not renew your sub and give up playing altogether.

Mister Sifter

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

2 Weeks ,are you codding me ?
Many people havent hit a ball in nearly 10 weeks.
November was the wettest on record,it rained nearly every day and December has been a freeze out.
Courses have been closed due to waterlogging or frost and on most days that they were open it was raining.
We havent had a decent summer in 3 years ,it seems to rain more than ever and there are very few calm days.
Even on a fine summers day you could get a gale.
Our climate is becoming completely unstable and unsuitable for golf.
I think alot of people will be taking a long hard look at whether their subscription is value for money considering how appalling the climate has been lately.
On another point,Subs should be due in late March ,not Jan .

Really? Glad i'm not a member of your club then. I missed one Sunday in November due to rain and 2 in December due to frost (which i would have taken off anyway for xmas shopping etc).

In the rest of 2009 i had 1 winter comp cancelled due to frost in early jan, 1 competition cancelled in summer due to rain and two abandoned due to heavy rain mid-round.

That's not a bad return at all in 12 months in golf in our climate.

Anyone living in Ireland who expects that they're gonna get to play 52 weekends a year is deluded.

f22

The only thing that has affected us is recent frost, we haven't had to close because of rain at all thanks to extensive new drainage systems.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

The only thing that has affected us is recent frost, we haven't had to close because of rain at all thanks to extensive new drainage systems.

Same here but we dont even close for the frost, just use temp greens.
Its only been closed this week as the car park/roads are impassable (well that and there is a foot of snow in places on the course!)

jimjo

Clubs being hit badly by the weather, reported in two papers this morning. This being the one in the times. I must admit I didn't think it would be that bad...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0112/1224262117965.html

A piece from the link;

"The Templepatrick has been closed for play since December 19th and, with a series of open days that were due to be played over the holiday period cancelled because of the conditions, the financial impact has been significant. “At a guesstimate, we’ve lost out £30,000 in revenue, it’s a massive hit . . . and everyone’s in the same boat,” he said"

Daithio9

jimjo wrote: »

Clubs being hit badly by the weather, reported in two papers this morning. This being the one in the times. I must admit I didn't think it would be that bad...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0112/1224262117965.html

A piece from the link;

"The Templepatrick has been closed for play since December 19th and, with a series of open days that were due to be played over the holiday period cancelled because of the conditions, the financial impact has been significant. “At a guesstimate, we’ve lost out £30,000 in revenue, it’s a massive hit . . . and everyone’s in the same boat,” he said"

I blame the government.

Mister Sifter

I'm amazed that clubs bank so much on this time of year for getting money in. It's winter, weather is meant to be bad.

Rather than concentrating on negative vibes in that piece, what i took from it is this...

Portmarnock Links... We’ve never been closed like this... thankfully, something like this only happens every 20 years...

One result of the freeze is greenkeeping staff have been diverted to other tasks...

I see both as hugely positive. We're lucky in this country that most years we can play in the winter months at all. Clubs can blubber on about lost green fees over the festive period all they want, but all it means is that they need to get pro-active to find ways of getting people into their course over the remaining 50 weeks of the year. Many of them have simply had it too easy over recent years.

jimjo

Too be honest, I don’t really know what to make of the articles in either the Times or the Examiner. Their only really focusing on the big resort golf courses or your prestigious clubs and not your average members club, who I wouldn’t have thought anyway, would make anything near that much money over the xmas period.

stumpypeeps

Mister Sifter wrote: »

I'm amazed that clubs bank so much on this time of year for getting money in. It's winter, weather is meant to be bad.

Rather than concentrating on negative vibes in that piece, what i took from it is this...

Portmarnock Links... We’ve never been closed like this... thankfully, something like this only happens every 20 years...

One result of the freeze is greenkeeping staff have been diverted to other tasks...

I see both as hugely positive. We're lucky in this country that most years we can play in the winter months at all. Clubs can blubber on about lost green fees over the festive period all they want, but all it means is that they need to get pro-active to find ways of getting people into their course over the remaining 50 weeks of the year. Many of them have simply had it too easy over recent years.

We are in the midst of perhaps the worst recession in 40 years, we are in the midst of the worst cold snap in 40 years. If you have any common sense available I think you can show some level of sympathy towards some of these clubs.

I'm assuming that your a member of a well run club that can absorb the impact of the bad climate, in both regards, however, suggesting that poorer clubs should get over it is akin to saying "let them eat cake".

Mister Sifter

stumpypeeps wrote: »

We are in the midst of perhaps the worst recession in 40 years, we are in the midst of the worst cold snap in 40 years. If you have any common sense available I think you can show some level of sympathy towards some of these clubs.

I'm assuming that your a member of a well run club that can absorb the impact of the bad climate, in both regards, however, suggesting that poorer clubs should get over it is akin to saying "let them eat cake".

Cry me a bloody river. We've had a few weeks of bad weather at a time of year when, guess what, the weather is meant to be bad!! And as for the recession... you keeping cowering in the corner, only to emerge to watch six one.

And this from someone who four weeks ago announced his intention to become a distance member in one of these bastardised country cabbage patches.

stumpypeeps

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Cry me a bloody river. We've had a few weeks of bad weather at a time of year when, guess what, the weather is meant to be bad!! And as for the recession... you keeping cowering in the corner, only to emerge to watch six one.

And this from someone who four weeks ago announced his intention to become a distance member in one of these bastardised country cabbage patches.

This is also someone who has seen six of his workmates lose their jobs over the last two months at his Golf Course.

I think we've seen your true colours Mister Sifter.

Mister Sifter

stumpypeeps wrote: »

This is also someone who has seen six of his workmates lose their jobs over the last two months at his Golf Course.

Even more laughable then. So rather than support your industry and keep your boys in jobs you're off to join a club where members cut their own greens and fairways and make their own cups of tea?

GreeBo

jimjo wrote: »

“At a guesstimate, we’ve lost out £30,000 in revenue,

If my club was in a position to lose 30k in 3 weeks then we would be laughing as would coin it in during the summer.

Thats a shed load of green fees!

GreeBo

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Even more laughable then. So rather than support your industry and keep your boys in jobs you're off to join a club where members cut their own greens and fairways and make their own cups of tea?

ohhhh harsh but fair....

/grabs popcorn.

PhilipMarlowe

I can't imagine that the bad weather is helping but I imagine that one day closed in the summer (monsoon season) could be worse than a week of closures at this time of year?
Plenty of industries are heavily influenced by the weather and the weather usually sucks at this time of the year. We have been unusually lucky the last few winters in that they have been dry but then the summers were messed up afterwards.
If March to October or even April to September is decent then these passed few weeks will only be a footnote to 2010.

stumpypeeps

GreeBo wrote: »

ohhhh harsh but fair....

/grabs popcorn.

Aren't you a moderator?, perhaps you should begin behaving like one.

stumpypeeps

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Even more laughable then. So rather than support your industry and keep your boys in jobs you're off to join a club where members cut their own greens and fairways and make their own cups of tea?

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than joining a club as a full member, given the volatility of the industry I'm employed in, the limited number of hours we are currently working and my lack of finances I can only afford to join such a club.

And I for one like the ethos of that club, thats how golf clubs originally started.

And perhaps now you'll crawl back under your bridge.;)

Mister Sifter

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than joining a club as a full member, given the volatility of the industry I'm employed in, the limited number of hours we are currently working and my lack of finances I can only afford to join such a club.

And I for one like the ethos of that club, thats how golf clubs originally started.

So, you're quite happy to help kill your own industry?

stumpypeeps

Mister Sifter wrote: »

So, you're quite happy to help kill your own industry?

I joined as a distance member so as to obtain a handicap. My intention is play lots of competitions throughout the year to lower that handicap.

In all likelihood I'll pay out a heck of a lot of money throughout the year to various clubs in the greater Dublin area in green fees and lunches.

If I play one competition a week at an average cost of 25 euros, I could conceivably end of putting over 1000 into various courses. Not including Lunch and a drink perhaps afterwards. Surely thats helping to support a club?

Lest we forget as a greenkeeper, I don't have to pay green fees at the vast majority of clubs. I do wave this benefit regularly.

I couldn't find a club to join within my budget in the Dublin area. I spent over a year trying.

ShriekingSheet

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I'm assuming that your a member of a well run club that can absorb the impact of the bad climate, in both regards, however, suggesting that poorer clubs should get over it is akin to saying "let them eat cake".

What is it with people on this forum playing the 'ivory tower' card in every argument like this? You can't use the fact that your friends lost jobs and your hours have been reduced as a stick to beat people with.

The point is simple. It's not about clubs "absorbing the impact of the bad climate" - there's always a bad climate this time of year, so there is no "impact", it's always the same. Sure, it's snowing more than usual, but it's just instead of rain which closes the courses anyway.

Besides, I don't think any clubs forecast much revenue for the irish winter. I think this is more hype around the desperate struggle some clubs are in. As Licksy said, if we have a reasonable summer (when clubs do forecast decent revenue), the winter won't have any "impact".

stumpypeeps

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

What is it with people on this forum playing the 'ivory tower' card in every argument like this? You can't use the fact that your friends lost jobs and your hours have been reduced as a stick to beat people with.

The point is simple. It's not about clubs "absorbing the impact of the bad climate" - there's always a bad climate this time of year, so there is no "impact", it's always the same. Sure, it's snowing more than usual, but it's just instead of rain which closes the courses anyway.

Besides, I don't think any clubs forecast much revenue for the irish winter. I think this is more hype around the desperate struggle some clubs are in. As Licksy said, if we have a reasonable summer (when clubs do forecast decent revenue), the winter won't have any "impact".

All I was suggesting is that Mister Sifter could have some sympathy for clubs. Its a difficult period at the moment. If you don't recognise it as such I think your burying your head in the sand a little.

But I know all mister sifter has to do is fart and you'll be there to attest to the wonderful fragrance of the smell.;)

stumpypeeps

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

The point is simple. It's not about clubs "absorbing the impact of the bad climate" - there's always a bad climate this time of year, so there is no "impact", it's always the same. Sure, it's snowing more than usual, but it's just instead of rain which closes the courses anyway.

Thats the biggest load of crap I've read in a long time. Our course has been closed since the 23rd of december continuously to the current time. Torrential rain does not have the same effect as it tends to drain away within a day or two.

mag

stumpypeeps wrote: »

as a greenkeeper, I don't have to pay green fees at the vast majority of clubs.

interesting, news to me.... carry on

ShriekingSheet

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I joined as a distance member so as to obtain a handicap. My intention is play lots of competitions throughout the year to lower that handicap.

In all likelihood I'll pay out a heck of a lot of money throughout the year to various clubs in the greater Dublin area in green fees and lunches.

If I play one competition a week at an average cost of 25 euros, I could conceivably end of putting over 1000 into various courses. Not including Lunch and a drink perhaps afterwards. Surely thats helping to support a club?

Lest we forget as a greenkeeper, I don't have to pay green fees at the vast majority of clubs. I do wave this benefit regularly.

I couldn't find a club to join within my budget in the Dublin area. I spent over a year trying.

What?? Massive contradictions there! That many green fees + membership in a country place + lunch & a drink? Sounds like you're spending more money on golf than two club members combined!

You're talking about your diminished financial situation... and about having lunch after you play, and €25 a week on green fees? Nevermind the extra petrol money getting to all these places, and to your home club down the country.

You'd be better off joining somewhere around Dublin and having a banana in the bag and a coffee after you play (like the rest of us), instead of going on a tour of Leinster for the season, and sampling the local cuisine at each stop.

Let them eat cake indeed.

GreeBo

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Aren't you a moderator?, perhaps you should begin behaving like one.

Perhaps I'll start by infracting people who try to be back seat mods, hmm?

jimjo

mag wrote: »

interesting, news to me.... carry on

Mag from what I know greenkeepers, but I thought it was just head greenkeepers, similar to pro’s can play the majority of courses free of charge. Providing that they ring up in advance and not just turn up

Think they have to be a member of this association http://www.gcsai.org/membership.php

stumpypeeps

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

What?? Massive contradictions there! That many green fees + membership in a country place + lunch & a drink? Sounds like you're spending more money on golf than two club members combined!

You're talking about your diminished financial situation... and about having lunch after you play, and €25 a week on green fees? Nevermind the extra petrol money getting to all these places, and to your home club down the country.

You'd be better off joining somewhere around Dublin and having a banana in the bag and a coffee after you play, instead of going on tour in Leinster, and sampling the local cuisine at each stop.

Let them eat cake indeed.

Its easier to pay a little a week than outlay a large sum at the beginning of the year. Surely that's understandable?

If I want to play a "practice" round I do so at my current place of work for nothing. Or am I being a leach by not offering to pay them for the privelige?

If I wanted, I could forget all together about a handicap. Forget about joining any club of any discription. Play for free wherever I like, play for free at my work and bring a banana in a bag.

I'm doing what I can now with a view to joining a place as a full member when its possible. Thats my ultimate goal, I would bloody love to be a full member of a good club.

stumpypeeps

GreeBo wrote: »

Perhaps I'll start by infracting people who try to be back seat mods, hmm?

I wasn't trying to be a mod, I was just wondering why you weren't trying to be a mod?

Surely you have to remain somewhat objective?

mag

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Its easier to pay a little a week than outlay a large sum at the beginning of the year. Surely that's understandable?

most clubs are offering the ability to spread the membership over the course of the year now. might be something to consider?

stumpypeeps

mag wrote: »

most clubs are offering the ability to spread the membership over the course of the year now. might be something to consider?

Yeah, I certainly did consider it. Dunmurry Springs had such a deal and I was very tempted.

Just for a minute though, I held off paying out a large subscription mainly due to members of our staff dropping like flies. Surely you can understand that in the current climate it would be foolish for me to make a commitment like that. I'm instead doing things in a way thats a little more frugal. If things become more stable I will certainly consider joining next year.

can you understand my predicament? I'm sure their are a lot of people in a similar position to me.

ShriekingSheet

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Its easier to pay a little a week than outlay a large sum at the beginning of the year. Surely that's understandable?

I'm doing what I can now with a view to joining a place as a full member when its possible. Thats my ultimate goal, I would bloody love to be a full member of a good club.

Yes! That's why I pay monthly - it's great!

If you add up all that you spend on the fee for Slievenamon, the petrol to travel there, the green fees elsewhere, the lunches and drinks... how much are you spending? (rhetorical)

I really don't think you're spending less than me, and I'm getting what you really want - membership of a good club!

stumpypeeps

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Yes! That's why I pay monthly - it's great!

If you add up all that you spend on the fee for Slievenamon, the petrol to travel there, the green fees elsewhere, the lunches and drinks... how much are you spending? (rhetorical)

I really don't think you're spending less than me, and I'm getting what you really want - membership of a good club!

See my previous post.

f22

Where are you living stumpypeeps, north/south Dublin?

GreeBo

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I wasn't trying to be a mod, I was just wondering why you weren't trying to be a mod?

Surely you have to remain somewhat objective?

Whats nonobjective about "ohhhh harsh but fair...."?
The original comment was a fair question based on your previous posts.

If you (or anyone) has a problem with a post by anyone (mods included) you should report the post rather than sidetrack the Thread.