Can anyone teach MMA??

yomchi

So I was bored, I know it's a Saturday night, but still... I was surfing around the web on a few Irish martial arts sites, and I was pretty amazed at the amount of MMA clubs doing the rounds. I know some of the lads who were the first MMA clubs in Ireland, but now it seems anyone can open one.

So I was wondering, is there a governing body for MMA, who says.. ok you can now teach MMA.. is there a cert? a belt? a qualification? Or is it all you need is a bit of skill on the ground and be able to throw a few digs?

Because some of the sites I came across, that's all the skill these guys have. What's stopping me from doing say 6 months BJJ and then with the bit of striking skill I have, opening up an MMA gym? Hypothetical question I know, but you proper MMA guys out there must get pissed off with this?

Kent Brockman

AFAIK anyone can set up a gym to teach MMA but they will soon be found out if they are no good.
Why do you think I haven't set one up in Tullamore l0l! Too many Brasillians:)

dlofnep

Yes they can. I saw a certain gym, which had pityful sparring videos that resembled a low budget 80's martial arts flick rather than a real MMA sparring session. No doubt, they were exploiting the popularity of MMA for their own gain.

Still - most people are becoming smart enough to know which gym is worth their hard earned money - but not all. (And that's the issue I have).

Chris89

One springs to mind, I cant talk about it but i cant for the life of me remember why.

yomchi

So is it time for a national governing body or something similar?

If I was a parent, and I wanted my 12 year old lad to start MMA where would I start to search? I have no experience in MMA but I want the best for my child, how do I seperate the wheat from the chaff? Websites can say any old sh1te and promote anyone as anything.

I'm genuinly not trying to flame or draw anyone out here, I just thought how can it be so easy to just say "right, today we're an MMA gym from now on"

Chris89

I imagine if you were a parent, unless you knew a bit or a lot about MMA, you wouldnt want to send your kid for obvious reasons.

If you did know about MMA, or had trained in a club yourself, you could easily do your own research or ask around to find out which club would be best.

Unfortunately unless your mom reads boards.ie, there is a good chance you could end up in a "bogey" school.

Sid_Justice

I'm not sure exactly what the big deal of NGBs are. Like what's stopping me from opening a TKD school in my garage? Like are the TKD police going to come along and say due to not belonging to the one of many NGBs I must shut down or least stop using the TKD trade mark?

Plenty of groups out there doing MMA who probably don't have much more experience than I do but it doesn't worry me. You don't need 10 years experience in MMA to have common sense, a first aid cert, and 3rd party liability insurance.

Like guys meet up and play 5 a side football all the time. What's the fuss about guys meeting up and doing a bit of MMA? Obviously there is more contact in MMA due to the nature of the boxing and joint locking but people break their legs all the time in 5 a side.

If parents are clueless about MMA as sport they shouldn't be clueless about what makes a recreational/sporting/exercise environment safe and trustworthy.

rovert

Ah sure I remember when they tought Power Rangers

yomchi

I imagine if you were a parent, unless you knew a bit or a lot about MMA, you wouldnt want to send your kid for obvious reasons.

Why?

I'm not sure exactly what the big deal of NGBs are

Standard.

Like what's stopping me from opening a TKD school in my garage?

You have to actually have experience in Taekwon-Do as there is a structured syllabus to teach, so there's nothing stopping you as long as you know what you're teaching, otherwise it isn't Taekwon-Do.

Same applies to MMA or any other style. I don't see gyms all of a sudden purporting to be teaching Hapkido, or Tai Chi or any other system, MMA gyms however are every where now being taught by people with no base in MMA.

Chris89

because every person i have ever talked to who doesnt follow mma just thinks its barbaric.

Sid_Justice

yomchi wrote: »

You have to actually have experience in Taekwon-Do as there is a structured syllabus to teach, so there's nothing stopping you as long as you know what you're teaching, otherwise it isn't Taekwon-Do.

But I can still call it TKD even if I just learn the techniques of the internet the night before the class.

yomchi

Of course you can, but it won't be Taekwon-Do. That's my point!

Sid_Justice

So is it also your point that by definition MMA doesn't really have a syllabus or curriculum it is impossible to define, senso stricto, what is and isn't MMA?

Dyr

Take a look at the resounding success at maintaining standards that martial arts governing bodies, councils etc etc have had so far.

A free market and caveat emptor is a far better method of quality control to having a bunch of chancers protecting their wee empires under the guise of "maintaining standards".

yomchi

Bambi wrote: »

Take a look at the resounding success at maintaining standards that martial arts governing bodies, councils etc etc have had so far.

A free market and caveat emptor is a far better method of quality control to having a bunch of chancers protecting their wee empires under the guise of "maintaining standards".

You'll have to provide examples for that one mate.

Bearing in mind that NGB's where applicable have support from the ISC. The AKAI (www.kickboxingireland.com) would be a good example of one NGB which has maintained and sustained a high level of kickboxing in Ireland.

So is it also your point that by definition MMA doesn't really have a syllabus or curriculum it is impossible to define, senso stricto, what is and isn't MMA?

No not at all. Go back to my original post, can anyone teach MMA even though they have no experience in it?

I coach sport Taekwon-Do and Kickboxing, if I do a crash course in BJJ does that allow me to open an MMA gym? Seems it does, having seen who's actually teaching MMA in some clubs.

Again don't get me wrong, I know there are former TKD coaches out there who are now teaching MMA, Roper and Mark Leonard spring to mind, but these guys have absorbed themselves into the MMA culture of training and competing and by right they are MMA coaches due to this. There are guys out there, who steer clear of MMA tournies, read a bit of BJJ basics, do a gracies crash course and away they go.

For the proper MMA coaches out there, whom I'm aiming this question at, isn't it time to fire wall what you guys have developed, from the wannabe UFCers? Or is MMA an open market, based on a concept rather than a specific system open to anyone?

Sid_Justice

Horse Racing Ireland seems to be a good example of a NGB. They put a lot of energy into promoting the sport at home, and the Irish brand abroad as well as helping with the development of the sport at grass root levels.

It's probably only martial arts that require a NBG to be overly concerned with 'standards'. Most sports, and I tentatively include MMA in this, maintain their standards by participating in competitions. Those that routinely do badly are perhaps examples of badly run clubs.

There have been numerous attempts, afaik, of starting a NGO or just a semi-formal council of MMA clubs. I think Barry Oglesby, Mark Leonard, Martin Walker and someone from EFR were fairly committed to giving it the green light.

While I don't think it's a big concern for others what kind of training goes in other people's gyms I think it is a concern for the Irish MMA community how well (or badly) shows and tournaments are run. The Josie Murray fiasco involving the celebrity referee springs to mind. Not sure what happened to the tournament in galway with the jugglers and sword swallowers and betting, i think that self imploded. But I'd definitely agree, one or two major PR diasters (involving something serious like an injury due to incompetence on someone's part) could result in a ridiculous piece of knee jerk legislation banning the entire game (admittedly this is unlikely).

yomchi

Thats a good point about the tournaments and shows.

Although I would imagine any organisation whether it be horse racing, motor sports or martial arts would always like to maintain a high standard, whether it be through it's coaching policies or competing policies.

Roper

Competition.

If they compete, they're honest enough to put it on the line. That doesn't mean everyone in the gym has to compete, just that people are willing to put what they're teaching to the test. Doesn't matter whether they win or lose.

There is some amount of tripe out there though.

Martin Walker

This has been bugging me for a while now and ive mentioned it before.
The main problem i have with these McDojos starting up is that the standard of fighters they are producing is poor. No two ways about it.
Every one has to start somewhere and most of the gyms in this country including the one i represent have come from very humble beginings. We started out in a garage learning a bit of kickboxing. Now roughly around 8 years later we have a big well kitted out MMA gym with some established pro fighters in the UK circuit.
The problem is that the McDojos popping up now bypass the learning stage and just open a gym and start pushing fighters into shows. Some even putting on shows themselves. It took me years to get to know the people in the sport enough to ask them for fighters.
I think its fine for people to open gyms if they have a good base discipline behind them. For example. We have Kickboxing, SBG have Jitz , EFR have sub Grappling, Chum Sut have Wrestling ect ect...
So in turn there "style" of MMA is derived from that. However many McDojos dont have a core. They just "do MMA" and they do it badly and most importantly it can be dangerous.
The subject of NGB is a sad one. Its been tried. Never works. In a ideal world there would be some sort of org there, and i would support such a thing but in my opinion it wont happen anytime soon.
But as long as the "senior" players in the sport keep communicating we can all rest assured that things will be fine. MMA in ireland is being looked after by a passionate group of people who want nothing but the sport to grow. Money is not the goal to these people unlike the McDojo down the street.

Thanks for your time
Marty

yomchi

Martin Walker wrote: »

This has been bugging me for a while now and ive mentioned it before.
The main problem i have with these McDojos starting up is that the standard of fighters they are producing is poor. No two ways about it.
Every one has to start somewhere and most of the gyms in this country including the one i represent have come from very humble beginings. We started out in a garage learning a bit of kickboxing. Now roughly around 8 years later we have a big well kitted out MMA gym with some established pro fighters in the UK circuit.
The problem is that the McDojos popping up now bypass the learning stage and just open a gym and start pushing fighters into shows. Some even putting on shows themselves. It took me years to get to know the people in the sport enough to ask them for fighters.
I think its fine for people to open gyms if they have a good base discipline behind them. For example. We have Kickboxing, SBG have Jitz , EFR have sub Grappling, Chum Sut have Wrestling ect ect...
So in turn there "style" of MMA is derived from that. However many McDojos dont have a core. They just "do MMA" and they do it badly and most importantly it can be dangerous.
The subject of NGB is a sad one. Its been tried. Never works. In a ideal world there would be some sort of org there, and i would support such a thing but in my opinion it wont happen anytime soon.
But as long as the "senior" players in the sport keep communicating we can all rest assured that things will be fine. MMA in ireland is being looked after by a passionate group of people who want nothing but the sport to grow. Money is not the goal to these people unlike the McDojo down the street.

Thanks for your time
Marty

Thanks for that.

Dyr

yomchi wrote: »

You'll have to provide examples for that one mate.

Well if you follow the logic of a governing body for regulation, then the government recognised body for martial arts is IMAC and IMAC affiliation is the standard that joe public should look for. Does anyone here actually believe that?

Take a look at all the different councils/associations in TKD, they're all meant to exist to maintain standards, truth is that they mostly exist due to power struggles, money and personalities. Martial arts governing bodies are like the Judean Peoples Front.

yomchi

Bambi wrote: »

Well if you follow the logic of a governing body for regulation, then the government recognised body for martial arts is IMAC and IMAC affiliation is the standard that joe public should look for. Does anyone here actually believe that?

Take a look at all the different councils/associations in TKD, they're all meant to exist to maintain standards, truth is that they mostly exist due to power struggles, money and personalities. Martial arts governing bodies are like the Judean Peoples Front.

IMAC provides recognised coaching qualifications and other important services for MA coaches.

Councils, associations are not governing bodies, they are two to a penny and responsible for the deterioration of standard in many styles.

There is only one commission for MA in Ireland thats IMAC whether we like it or not.

bret69

There's nothing to stop anybody opening up an MMA gym with little or no experience...but there's nothing stopping anyone opening up a gym and teaching boards-kwon-do.

I have seen MMA classes with very poor standards but I have seen just as many, if not more, people saying their teaching all forms of trad arts...TKD, Karate, Aikido, Kung Fu and claiming their 6th dan in X, 7th dan in Y and 18th dan in Z.

I remember somebody up the road from me used to teach "Street Fighting" and claimed to have all sorts of mad qualifications...which he clearly did not. There was nothing to stop him doing that.

I think the problem has existed for a long time, maybe a lot of the con artists are just jumping on the MMA bandwagon these days with the explosion of the UFC.

yomchi

bret69 wrote: »

There's nothing to stop anybody opening up an MMA gym with little or no experience...but there's nothing stopping anyone opening up a gym and teaching boards-kwon-do.

I have seen MMA classes with very poor standards but I have seen just as many, if not more, people saying their teaching all forms of trad arts...TKD, Karate, Aikido, Kung Fu and claiming their 6th dan in X, 7th dan in Y and 18th dan in Z.

I remember somebody up the road from me used to teach "Street Fighting" and claimed to have all sorts of mad qualifications...which he clearly did not. There was nothing to stop him doing that.

I think the problem has existed for a long time, maybe a lot of the con artists are just jumping on the MMA bandwagon these days with the explosion of the UFC.

People seem to think I'm poking a go at MMA here by the very fact that a comparison is given to 'traditional' martial arts and a 'my da is bigger than your da' argument.

I have seen MMA classes with very poor standards but I have seen just as many, if not more, people saying their teaching all forms of trad arts...TKD, Karate, Aikido, Kung Fu and claiming their 6th dan in X, 7th dan in Y and 18th dan in Z

Not sure what your point is there, there are people teaching all for forms of 'trad arts' and do happen to have grades relevant to the art.

bret69

yomchi wrote: »

Not sure what your point is there

My point is there are people teaching "Martial Arts" classes all over the place that shouldn't be...some of them are called MMA, others are called names of trad arts.

So the problem is across the board, not just in MMA.

I'm not trying to be defensive of MMA, I'm just making a point that I think it's happening everywhere...

yomchi

bret69 wrote: »

My point is there are people teaching "Martial Arts" classes all over the place that shouldn't be...some of them are called MMA, others are called names of trad arts.

So the problem is across the board, not just in MMA.

I'm not trying to be defensive of MMA, I'm just making a point that I think it's happening everywhere...

Fair enough, but MMA is in it's infancy here in Ireland and is only starting to spread its wings. The fact that plenty of these con artists are claiming to teach MMA is a tribute to it's popularity. The thing is, while things are in the early stages, it can be alot easier now to fire wall real MMA, real MMA gyms and fighters.

Other older arts have already passed that stage and are well used to being prostituted and re-hashed. The most recent one being 'street Taekwon-Do'

bret69

yomchi wrote: »

Fair enough, but MMA is in it's infancy here in Ireland and is only starting to spread its wings. The fact that plenty of these con artists are claiming to teach MMA is a tribute to it's popularity. The thing is, while things are in the early stages, it can be alot easier now to fire wall real MMA, real MMA gyms and fighters.

Other older arts have already passed that stage and are well used to being prostituted and re-hashed. The most recent one being 'street Taekwon-Do'

Yeah that's a fair point.

Sid_Justice

Where are all these dodgy MMA clubs? Hasn't "joe bloggs" taken an mma fight and won it?

Roper

I don't think that having a fight or two is a prerequisite for ethics, honesty and integrity in your dealings.

FUNKY LOVER

Roper wrote: »

I don't think that having a fight or two is a prerequisite for ethics, honesty and integrity in your dealings.

would that be referring to him earning 50,000 for crumlin hospital over the years:rolleyes:

Chewabacca

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Like guys meet up and play 5 a side football all the time. What's the fuss about guys meeting up and doing a bit of MMA? Obviously there is more contact in MMA due to the nature of the boxing and joint locking but people break their legs all the time in 5 a side.

If parents are clueless about MMA as sport they shouldn't be clueless about what makes a recreational/sporting/exercise environment safe and trustworthy.

5 friends meeting up to train MMA is one thing but someone teaching people with 0 experience and charging them for the privelige is another. Someone who doesn't know their stuff teaching MMA is dangerous, simple as. Would you pay someone who "fights UFC" or has had minimal amount training to train you and would you feel safe doing it?

There's a big difference between knowing about MMA in general and knowing the Irish MMA scene. How many friends do you know who know everything about the big time shows but know absolutely nothing about MMA? Most people who are into the Irish MMA scene train or have some connection to it.

A man in his 50's who was too old to train (many middle aged men are perfectly capable of training and should by all means but most wont at this age) by the time MMA began to grow in Ireland might know everything about big show MMA and might really know the sport but won't know a thing about the relatively small Irish MMA scene. They won't know the reputations of gyms and trainers. Hence if they won't want their kid to go training BJJ or MMA at a chancers gym a governing body would be useful to sift out the crap gyms.

Chewabacca

Martin Walker wrote: »

This has been bugging me for a while now and ive mentioned it before.
The main problem i have with these McDojos starting up is that the standard of fighters they are producing is poor. No two ways about it.
Every one has to start somewhere and most of the gyms in this country including the one i represent have come from very humble beginings. We started out in a garage learning a bit of kickboxing. Now roughly around 8 years later we have a big well kitted out MMA gym with some established pro fighters in the UK circuit.
The problem is that the McDojos popping up now bypass the learning stage and just open a gym and start pushing fighters into shows. Some even putting on shows themselves. It took me years to get to know the people in the sport enough to ask them for fighters.
I think its fine for people to open gyms if they have a good base discipline behind them. For example. We have Kickboxing, SBG have Jitz , EFR have sub Grappling, Chum Sut have Wrestling ect ect...
So in turn there "style" of MMA is derived from that. However many McDojos dont have a core. They just "do MMA" and they do it badly and most importantly it can be dangerous.
The subject of NGB is a sad one. Its been tried. Never works. In a ideal world there would be some sort of org there, and i would support such a thing but in my opinion it wont happen anytime soon.
But as long as the "senior" players in the sport keep communicating we can all rest assured that things will be fine. MMA in ireland is being looked after by a passionate group of people who want nothing but the sport to grow. Money is not the goal to these people unlike the McDojo down the street.

Thanks for your time
Marty

Well put Marty and I completely agree with everything you said. I was lucky enough to begin my training with a new gym that quicly became established and provided quality training but at the time I was so eager to join a gym that I would have joined any gym without knowing anything about it.

yomchi

Maybe a governing body isn't needed, I would imagine an alliance or council of recognised MMA clubs and coaches would be a good idea. However for this to work, it would need to be done before MMA explodes all over the place and money and ego become an obstacle block to any progress. This is what happened to Taekwon-Do which has now has a club in every parish, with some instrucors not knowing their arse from their elbow, and even within governing bodies, they still don't know their arse from their elbow.

Having said that, MMA has the upper hand in having a very real and non abstract method of training and competing where it can be very hard to hide in a comfort zone as a coach.

Roper

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

would that be referring to him earning 50,000 for crumlin hospital over the years:rolleyes:

Sorry fella don't know what you're on about. That was a general comment about standards, honesty, ethics etc. That's what this topic is about. I don't have any dealings with the gym you're talking about nor have I ever, so I can't say how honest or ethical anyone in there is.

McArmalite

Bambi wrote: »

Well if you follow the logic of a governing body for regulation, then the government recognised body for martial arts is IMAC and IMAC affiliation is the standard that joe public should look for. Does anyone here actually believe that?

Take a look at all the different councils/associations in TKD, they're all meant to exist to maintain standards, truth is that they mostly exist due to power struggles, money and personalities. Martial arts governing bodies are like the Judean Peoples Front.

" Martial arts governing bodies are like the Judean Peoples Front. " Nice one Bambi . Unfortunately too true.

McArmalite

In my experience these McDojo MMA clubs actually are doing damage to potential MMAers by teaching them bad habits and bad technique and the wrong attitude i.e. just go at it with all the strength and ignorance you can possibly muster and hope that you get your way. It's like teaching a guy boxing and telling him to swing relentlessly with everything he's got until he makes his mark :rolleyes:

For example with BJJ probably the biggest mistake a newbie makes is he's unnecesarrily too tense and using pure strength and ignorance instead of developing technique. Most of the time he's just gassing himself out expending energy totally unneccesarily. Point is, if a guy starts doing this from the beginning and over a few months it becomes his instinct -and it takes twice as long or longer to untrain him from these bad habits.

columok

The regulation for MMA is simply success in competition. Governing bodies only serve to protect and encourage the political in martial arts who as many of us know are often the worst amongst us. Competition=darwinism. It gives the simplest indicator of how good and legit the MMA training is in a given gym. Combine that with how enjoyable the training atmosphere is and you can quickly gauge the quality of a gym.

Why people have a constant desire to be governed is beyond me...

Kevin Moran

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

your a coward so,cause you know exactly who were talking about cause someone mentioned his name in the post before your post.

if your not man enough to admit what you meant then that says it all.

You're looking to troll and if you're not troll enough to admit that then that says it all!
I think there may be a legal issue in naming and shaming a certain gym, I agree with your previous posts however. Someone who has a few fights may be not the most ideal candidate for coaching, just like some people who have coaching qualifications may still not be a good individual for coaching a group, its down to the individual concerned, if theres hidden training costs and a deluge of in-house seminars at an extra cost, common sense and a swift exit should prevail.
MMA was born out of competition, not the otherway round as in most other sports, therefore the leveller is competition. Not everyone wants to step onto a mat or into a cage but the very 'alive' nature of MMA training will show up con-men very quickly. A good coach might not necessarily school all their students but should still be able to crituque them, even when they've surpassed the coach's own ability.

FUNKY LOVER

apologies to roper for earlier posts i mistook what he was saying..anyway back on topic;)

Roper

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

apologies to roper for earlier posts i mistook what he was saying..anyway back on topic;)

Thanks for that.

Roper

On topic, I think the "quality" question is easily answered.

If you are looking for a competitive gym, and plan to compete and win at MMA, then look for a gym that competes regularly.

If you are looking for a place to hang out and train in and have fun regardless of whether you learn how to fight or not, then look for somewhere you can enjoy. It might well be one of the fight gyms.

If I was a bloke who just wanted to keep the belly off, quality wouldn't be an issue for me I suppose. I think I'd just sooner go to the gym I enjoy training at the most, which is why sham MMA gyms can still floorish. I suppose there's no harm in that really. To be honest I've really stopped caring about this stuff. I'm happy