what do you think of the way irish is taught in schools

Junco Partner

what does everyone think about the leaving cert course in irish
i would love to be able to speak my native language but there is too much emphasis placed on poetry and novel extracts which we then have to anyalyse and discuss in detail using a language that we only have a rudimentary knowledgeof and are only learning and many people struggle with this. its alright in english we are fluent so we are able to talk about poetry and books. i think it should be taught like french as a foreign language (which it has basically been for the last couple of hundred years) and it should be taught like french ,verbs grammar oral comprehension only so as to make it possible to learn it and reclaim it. its about time those gob****es in power put aside the silly patriotism that surrounds the language and accept that the course needs to be revised

jesus i went on a bit there well anyway i was hoping you would all share your toughts on the matter

Black Magic

I agree but there is nothing that can be done.

spurious

There may be nothing that can be done by a Leaving Cert. student, but there are many measures in the pipeline curriculum-wise. A big priority is a large emphasis on oral skills. When they will be implemented, who knows, but the "gob****** in power" are well aware of the problem and have been working towards change for many years - not just in Irish, in all subjects.

MunchkinKid

The leaving cert irish course is ridiculous i think.. It doesnt come down to how good you are at irish at the end of the day just how much you can remember in the exam! 13 poems, 5 prose, 1 play and the stair and essays too.. Definitely the one i am most dreading because there is so much to learn!:eek:

dlofnep

The current curriculum is terrible, just absolutely terrible. The proof is in the pudding. If you can't speak a language after 13-14 years of study, something is wrong.

They need to make poetry and that optional, and have a mandatory conversational class instead. There's no point in getting people to remember poems if they can't even speak the language.

poisonated

I agree.I would love to have a basic speaking level of Irish.I can hardly string a sentance together.I also think that they need to expand the number of subjects available

sold

As with any language the best way to learn it is to hear it spoken. When I did my leaving in 1991 I had no interest or love for the language, but today I think its a real pity I don't speak it. Its a rich language with a deep history that is being lost in Irish Society.

When the republic was formed and it was decided to revive Irish the wrong steps was taken as it was taught in schools but not learned. The methods used to teach irish were the exact same as the ones used to teach Latin. Latin was taught as a reference language (not really to be spoken) but Irish does need to be spoken.

We have some great Irish speakers (like Hyde a protestant) who loved the language and spoke it better than many Irish Catholics.

We went down the road as a nation of teaching Irish but not speaking it. We could easily revive it be introduce more words into our everyday use. Who in Ireland does not know that the Irish word "taoiseach" means or "Dail" Why to we use some choice Irish words and not others.

Irish could be returned and revived if we forced the Media, Advertising, Publis service to start using it more.

eVeNtInE

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dlofnep

Agreed. Irish revival should focus on the positives of the language, a creative learning environment, and a friendly attitude - rather than putting students under an immense amount of pressure to remember something that they genuinely don't need to know.

Some people consider abolishing the Irish language. I don't. I just think we should give it a complete overhaul, and make it enjoyable to learn. The differences in opinion between people who hated studying it, and from those who enjoyed it make the topic an impossible thing to discuss on any rational level.

Fad

This again? >_<

I'm one of those weirdos who actually thinks the current syllabus is fine, it's just poorly taught and a huge proportion of students are also incredibly lazy.

Some of the Irish language implementations are a bit useless, cigarette packets for example? WHY! but anyway.....

Fad

f0ggy92 wrote: »

its about time those gob****es in power put aside the silly patriotism that surrounds the language and accept that the course needs to be revised
r

Sorry about the double post, but I actually just read the OP properly.... >_>

WHAT! The first bit there is just total horseshít, leave any anti government sentiment out of this........ the DOE know that the Irish course is outdated, but it is a horribly inefficient body. They're working on it, just dont expect to see any change in the time you're in school.

dolliemix

dlofnep wrote: »

Agreed. Irish revival should focus on the positives of the language, a creative learning environment, and a friendly attitude - rather than putting students under an immense amount of pressure to remember something that they genuinely don't need to know.

Some people consider abolishing the Irish language. I don't. I just think we should give it a complete overhaul, and make it enjoyable to learn. The differences in opinion between people who hated studying it, and from those who enjoyed it make the topic an impossible thing to discuss on any rational level.

How can you 'abolish' a language?

dlofnep

dolliemix wrote: »

How can you 'abolish' a language?

Abolishing state support rather.

eVeNtInE

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professore

eVeNtInE wrote: »

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That's what they do in the Gaelscoileanna .... yet everyone who doesn't have kids there or went there themselves detests them for some reason.

dlofnep

eVeNtInE wrote: »

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I would and I wouldn't. I'll explain.

I think alot of complete find the leaving cert exam to be alot of pressure, and feel that it's too much sacrifice with little reward. I think we should have an exam, but only one that examines written and oral skills - and not the ability to remember poems, or spend needless hours translating texts.

There should be 2 Irish classes - One that focuses on conversational Irish/writing and reading - and then "cultural Irish" - which focuses on the history of the language, poetry, books/authors and demands a little more out of a student. The latter should be optional.

This way - it takes alot of pressure from students who genuinely don't like the language, but also allows them to learn practical elements of the language so that they actually have the ability to use it, and use it in real scenarios - rather than reciting the carlsberg advert.

We need to start harvesting a genuine grá for the language. We can't throw an immense amount of pressure on students, without something in return.

I think with the above, everyone gets to learn the language and be able to use it for practical purposes, and then those who want to pursue it even further can take on an additional cultural subject.

But most important is the creation of a conversational orientated class. Teach people how to use the language. This will make it more relevant in society again.

Just my opinion. I love Irish and learned it myself outside of school. But not everyone has the time or the resources to do so. I would have preferred to learn it in school so that I didn't have to try and scrape a few hours a week to learn it. Still, it's been an educational experience for me and I've loved every minute of it, and met amazing people.

seaner

When I did my leaving cert, I treated Irish like any other subject that I needed to memorise as much as I could and then try my best at the papers. I did quite well and was happy with my honours B. I'll be honest and admit though that the moment I finished my leaving cert Irish, I then forgot about it completely.

It didn't occur to me until recently that its actually a language....a language's purpose is to communicate right? How awful this didn't dawn on me until a couple years ago. I've since then taken a couple of night classes in Conradh Na Gaeilge and been to the Gaeltacht in Glencolmkille a couple of times too. My irish is getting along great and I would have to admit I've learnt SO much from it.

The way its taught in schools is simply killing the language. Say what you will, but to me forcing a language on anyone is immediately going to send out the wrong signals. Take me for example, the moment I realised I didn't have to learn it, a real interest in it was sparked. Knowing that I was doing it for me meant so much more than knowing I needed to achieve a honours C or more in order to get into a certain course in college.


I wish they're decide a new curriculum for secondary schools..i really do. Because if people experienced it as I have, I'm sure their opinions would soon change.

Also a side note to how bad its taught....We often hear people using Is ea or 'sea as the IRish answer for 'Yes' . This is wrong in certain circumstances...as it literally means 'it is'. The first day of lessons in Conradh and my teacher explained this to me, and how I needed to answer any question by paying attention to how its asked..(An bhfuil = Tá / Nil etc etc ) and only in certain circumstances should is ea be used (or ni hea). I'd been taught IRish since i was five, yet no one had put it that simply to me before!!

dlofnep

Fad wrote: »

I'm one of those weirdos who actually thinks the current syllabus is fine, it's just poorly taught and a huge proportion of students are also incredibly lazy.

I don't agree with this Fad.

You can't put the blame on the students when they are continously left without even the slightest bit of fluency in the language after decades and decades of the same process.

I've studied best practice for language study, and took it on my own to study the language. I've read countless books on language study and IMO the biggest failing with the Irish language is the lack of immersion in schools. Students are not surrounded by the language, and thus don't really have an opportunity to hear it, or use it.

I've learnt so much more Irish, by meeting a few people once a week for a few pints than I ever did in school. The sole reason was that we only used Irish, which created a true immersion environment.

You're living in denial if you think the current curriculum is fine. (And I don't mean that in a condescending way, so please don't take it as so).

dlofnep

Also, if anyone is interested - Ó Cuiv released the 2010-2030 language strategy draft, which outlines a 20 year plan to increase the visibility of Irish, and improve the curriculum. You can have a read here: http://www.eamonocuiv.ie/images/docs/draft_20_year_strategy.doc

dolliemix

Completely agree with dlofnep's suggestions above post.

I love idea of giving people the option of doing poetry or not. I also think the stair na Gaeilge is taught and examined really badly - they could make it more interesting because it is quite interesting and very relevant to our culture etc

Maybe get the students to do a project based on an area of stair or a poet but go into greater detail. With this project, the oral and the listening exam - the written wouldn't be so scary. But with all the poetry and stair examined as a project as opposed to students spending hours of class time translating and studying difficult texts and freaking out if they miss a class that a particularly difficult text was taught in.

So I would support getting rid of Paper 2 - but still having a sense of it through project research

I get the impression that most people would like to be able to use Irish so it's a shame that so many people come out feeling they wasted time in school studying it.

On the otherhand - when I was in school I hated Biology and Economics. I could say I was put off them for life as well. Different strokes for different folks. I loved the Irish course, ended up studying Irish in college and now I'm teaching the 'dreaded' course.

eVeNtInE

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dolliemix

eVeNtInE wrote: »

.

I think that sounds like a really good way of making the Irish course better. (Is there any major reform in the pipeline for the teaching of the language actually?)

To be honest there are plenty of resources and facilities out there trying to help us teach Irish in an 'enjoyable' way. The problem is they haven't changed how it is examined yet so even though teachers are dying to get out there and teach Irish as a modern and enjoyable language, at the end of the day, students need results and we inevitably have to gear them towards an exam that hasn't really changed much since the 70s!

I have attented 3 or 4 inservice days at this stage. They give us great ideas but in reality in order to get the course covered and revised by the mocks (which is what the students and parents are demanding now) you don't have time to do all these fun things.

Its a shame because so much more is available to students now. The internet, TG4 and European Union officially recognising the language. Really imo the exams should be geared towards all these forms of media and translation studies, because this is where the majority of kids will end up using it if they use it in the future.

Not very many will end up writing peotry!

dlofnep

eVeNtInE wrote: »

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Aye, I'll highlight a few key points from the text.

At post-primary level, where programmes in Irish are offered at three levels, there will be a strong emphasis on fostering oral, aural and written competence in Irish, and on ensuring a significant shift in emphasis towards Irish as a spoken language, where students can communicate and interact in a spontaneous way, and where Irish is spoken every day in schools.

From as early as possible in Phase II, it is proposed to move towards a situation where partial Irish language immersion will be offered to all children. This will be implemented on a phased basis in line with the progress made in strengthening teacher’s competences in this area through a comprehensive investment programme of professional development for teachers. This could be delivered through the teaching of some mainstream subject matter in Irish

Note that phase II is from 2013-2025. There is also a heavy focus on increasing the level of Irish for teachers, and to try and encourage the use of Irish in and out of the classroom. There will be also a new Gaeltacht scholarship scheme for primary school teachers.

It's certainly worth a read of the full text. It looks promising. I took part in the original survey (which was then Plean 2028) and spoke in depth about the need for true immersion. Hopefully, this text will be implemented to it's fullest.

Seloth

I cant remeber beng taught to speak irish in secondary school

The bets way to do this,and I've even heard it off teachers is to start from the begininning like Spanish or French.I hate and despise Irish LC and it was my least favourite subject till 4th year...I'm so decrepid at it I have to get an extra one to one class...but I' love to be able to speak it...f**k Spanish or french or even Japanese...I want to be able to speak the language that was forcably driven out of my people.

People say it shouldnt be mandatory,My past self would kill me but I think it should be...But Universitys need to easy up on it!...I need to get a pass in that and a forgein language to get into the main ones..thats the BS!

Crow92

Is the Root of the problem not in primary schools??? i was taught very very little in primary school, i hadnt basic knowledge of grammer or anything. I basically started learning irish properly when i hit secondary school school.

So some people may say you've been learning it for 13-14 years but i'd hardly call the first 8 of those years learning unless you went to a gaelscoil, and i believe most primary schools should be turned into gaelscoils. And for foreign children they are to be accommadated too.

zoom!

There is only ONE way and ONE way only to learn a language and that's by going and speaking it in the region. Every teacher in our school comes from an irish speaking area and even if they don't they have spent some time there. same with french, the only person i have known to get an A is someone who went there and lived ever summer.

yo!its_yoyo

I dropped to pass irish couple of weeks ago, simply because the amount of learning is not worth the time I could spend doing other things IMHO.
In my former 'HL' class no-one can hold a conversation in irish. If you sent them to the gaeltacht it would be the same as sending them to tokyo!
From the teachers point of view it is the LC result that matters so it is more iimportant to learn off stories/poems ect than to be able to actually speak the language.
But we are supposed to be learning a LANGUAGE, not about how some fella wrote a funny poem about some student that goes drinking instead of attending college.
And then learn about all the other things this poet has done...etc
And at the end of it all a person doesn't know whether to answer An bhfuil? with Ta or bhi.
It is not the teachers fault it is the examinations

RexMundi

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't agree with this Fad.

You can't put the blame on the students when they are continously left without even the slightest bit of fluency in the language after decades and decades of the same process.

I've studied best practice for language study, and took it on my own to study the language. I've read countless books on language study and IMO the biggest failing with the Irish language is the lack of immersion in schools. Students are not surrounded by the language, and thus don't really have an opportunity to hear it, or use it.

I've learnt so much more Irish, by meeting a few people once a week for a few pints than I ever did in school. The sole reason was that we only used Irish, which created a true immersion environment.

You're living in denial if you think the current curriculum is fine. (And I don't mean that in a condescending way, so please don't take it as so).

If students bother they can come out of the Irish School system with very good Irish. Neither of my parents speak Irish, I never even spent time in one of those Gaeltacht courses ach tá Gaeilge mhaith agam and I am far from gifted at languages, my french is abysmal...

Anyway my point is that most students simply are not arsed. They do nothing for Irish and don't want to. In my school even most of the smart students drop down to ordinary level preferring to take up an extra subject like music or applied maths than spend any time learning their native tongue.

The curriculum almost certainly could be improved but the poor standard of Irish students come out of school with is not the curriculum's fault, it is almost entirely their own.

Junco Partner

yo!its_yoyo wrote: »

But we are supposed to be learning a LANGUAGE, not about how some fella wrote a funny poem about some student that goes drinking instead of attending college.

martin o mealoid ya? what a bollocks of a story

Orlaladuck

Fad wrote: »

This again? >_<

I'm one of those weirdos who actually thinks the current syllabus is fine, it's just poorly taught and a huge proportion of students are also incredibly lazy.

Some of the Irish language implementations are a bit useless, cigarette packets for example? WHY! but anyway.....

^This seriously annoyed me. Irish itself is Awfully taught. I came from Australia into 2nd class and I didn't start learning properly until I started in Secondary and even then unless I had one teacher once a week I wouldn't have been able to do Honours at all.
But students are Not lazy. To do HL at all means 40 minutes Minimum a night to do h/w. That doesn't include time it takes to do essays and whatnot. Add that to 7 or 8 other subjects worth and I really don't see how we're lazy.
A lot of people I know this year are aiming for very high points to get into better courses rather than just settling for an easy one, most people who repeat this year seem to be repeating not because they did badly or didn't get their choice but because in case they don't like their course and decide to change, they have the points to do so. That seems logical rather than lazy,no? I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to resist this year and we haven't even got to the mocks yet!

dolliemix

Orlaladuck wrote: »

^This seriously annoyed me. Irish itself is Awfully taught. I came from Australia into 2nd class and I didn't start learning properly until I started in Secondary and even then unless I had one teacher once a week I wouldn't have been able to do Honours at all.
But students are Not lazy. To do HL at all means 40 minutes Minimum a night to do h/w. That doesn't include time it takes to do essays and whatnot. Add that to 7 or 8 other subjects worth and I really don't see how we're lazy.

You're completely exaggerating here!

But even if you're not I'd say there are about 20 students in the whole country putting this type of time in.

It's not realistic and it's not required either.

I've been teaching honours Irish for a few years now. The majority of my students do fup all in 5th Year. Start doing their homework in 6th Year. Do the mocks and realise that the course is manageable. Panic for the orals. Do fine in the oral and start studying properly because they realise it's not too bad.

In general I don't think they're lazy, just initially daunted by the course.

But there are some really lazy students out there - who want the honour but aren't prepared to put in the work.

I've had loads of students (and their parents) over the years telling me they have to get an honour to do primary school teaching. You give them notes and talk them through a poem or essay or whatever - and then they come in and say they didn't understand. WTF?? You want the honour, you read the notes, you listen in class and you attempt the question. In this regard Fad is correct.

The worst is when mammy comes in telling that she doesn't understand - Darling

---

was brilliant in school in primary school and went to the Gaeltacht in 1st year, so why is there a problem? Your child doesn't study and only half does her homework so doesn't have a clue whats going on.


Too many students nowadays expect the essays to be written for them. They don't take responsibilty for their own sense of awareness and learning. When I was school the teacher would give us some random topic to do an essay on - no preparation or help. You'd do it. If I did that to my students - they'd be asking me where the notes were or I'd get a half page answer.

If you're doing honours Irish you should be embracing it. Speaking it whenever you can. Reading articles outside of the course. Contributing to websites. Watching TG4. If you do all of this you won't find it difficult to write essays or put an argument across. Every news bulletin on TG4 or on the Nuacht is worthy of an essay in itself.

Its easy to put all the blame on teachers and the course. But you have to ask yourself, if you're finding it difficult, and time-consuming, is it really for you? Or are you approaching it correctly.

Most people I know and the students I teach, who don't complain about Irish, just enjoy speaking it and aren't necessarily fixated on getting a certain result to a get a place in college.

Orla - you're spending way too much time on it. Are you using some of that time to just chat to your friends as gaeilge or are you siiting trying to write essays? 25% of the exam is based on the oral so you should be spending 25% of your time practicing this. Another 18% is awarded for listening - so spend 18% of your time listening to the language.

Agus go n-éirí leat

Orlaladuck

I see your point there.
I understand how students rely on sample answers and whatnot but there has been quite a few times my teacher has done just as you said your old teacher did. Over the holidays, my teacher set a Pros question on a drama I didn't do last year because I was in a different class. When I said this, she said 'get the notes from someone' but how honestly am I going to get notes from another student, doing the same question over the holidays? I know 'excuses, excuses'. I got little or No help from the book itself, I translated as much as the story as I could, posted it onto a translation site who just told me 'oh most schools do the movie instead', the site in question requires evidence that you have actually Done some work yourself. I've got the essay Half done at this point - No idea how long it's meant to be. I wasn't asking to Not do the question or for a sample answer but a quick summary of the story would have been Extremely helpful.

dolliemix

Orlaladuck wrote: »

I see your point there.
I understand how students rely on sample answers and whatnot but there has been quite a few times my teacher has done just as you said your old teacher did. Over the holidays, my teacher set a Pros question on a drama I didn't do last year because I was in a different class. When I said this, she said 'get the notes from someone' but how honestly am I going to get notes from another student, doing the same question over the holidays? I know 'excuses, excuses'. I got little or No help from the book itself, I translated as much as the story as I could, posted it onto a translation site who just told me 'oh most schools do the movie instead', the site in question requires evidence that you have actually Done some work yourself. I've got the essay Half done at this point - No idea how long it's meant to be. I wasn't asking to Not do the question or for a sample answer but a quick summary of the story would have been Extremely helpful.

Whats the drama/ story you're talking about? Surely there are notes in your book. Did you explain to the teacher that you missed it last year because you were in a different class? Your case is genuine so your teacher shouldn't have a problem giving you more time. If I were you I'd leave it for now. You're probably spending more time stressing over this essay than is necessary. Watch the headlines of the nuacht on RTE player and summarise them in your own words. It's all about the weather at the moment so you should understand it.

Orlaladuck

The drama is La Bui Bealtaine. And I've got as much as I can from the book =/. And unfortunately it's due in for tomorrow but she does tend to change her mind as to when things are due -.-
I can't ask for extra time because it'll be a case of 'oh you've had all holidays!' type thing. But I shall plow on and hopefully it'll get a pass.

dolliemix

Ok Good luck! The effort you're putting in now will stand to you!

Ná déan dearmad bheith ag féachaint ar an nuacht chomh minic is féidir

pbowenroe

I have always said that the Irish curriculum is terrible. The only way a language thrives is if people speak it, which we are not currently taught to do (With the exception of the oral, although the oral isn't the most important part of the course).

Having to learn off poems and prose only puts young people like myself off Irish as a subject. I would love to be able to speak Irish and havin being learning it for seven years, ( I started in 5th class after moving here from the north) i should be able to.

The curriculum needs a major overhaul.

Professional Griefer

Anyone know when the oral is?

whildchild

I love Irish as a language to listen to. I just wish I could understand it!! For Primary school, we did no spoken Irish at all pretty much, just written and spellings (which I still don't get). I did mediocrely in Irish in first year, decided it wasn't worth the effort and dropped down to pass for my JC. (Ended up with a

But I did TY and we watched these movies in Irish done for a TG4 competition and it completely made me want to learn the language! I begged my teacher and she got me into an honours class. At this stage I am working like crazy, but its still the only class I'm getting Ds or maybe a C3 if I'm lucky, whereas in all my other subjects its a lot higher.

I wish I'd gotten the passion right from primary level, but I really don't think my teachers liked Irish as a subject and they passed that on to us doing it. I think that maybe there should be one teacher who specialises in Irish, who actually LIKES Irish who should teach the classes for primary. Begin instilling a love for the language then, begin with books, television, songs, etc. and give a practical side to the language.

Leaving Cert Irish is doable for the low C I might need it for if all goes terribly wrong or I go down to pass maths (unlikely but...) I would very much prefer to be doing conversation classes, or even letters and essays than the pros section. Or like even writing poetry instead of studying it. Make it more acessable.

dlofnep

Keep at it buddy If you like it, it will come to you.

whildchild

I'm praying to whatevers up there it will, I want to be a translater and giving up a language is not something I want to do!

dan_d

Actually, the problem with Irish is mainly at the primary school level.
Look at it this way. You learn/speak English all your life. Come the LC, you've got poetry, essays, comprehensions. You learn Irish for a min of 13 years of your life. Come the LC, you've got poetry/essays/comprehensions. You learn French/German/Spanish 6 years, from scratch, beofre the LC (i'm not including those who do it as an extra in primary school). Come the LC you've got comprehensions and paragraphs - as befits 6 years worth of learning a language.
Yes the course is heavy in Irish. But technically, you should have close to the same proficiency in written irish as you have in English. The listening and oral, obviously more practice needs to go into them. But you've spent 13 years of your life doing irish at least once a day, for 5 days of the week, at least 40 weeks of the year.And that's not counting Gaeltachts and grinds.
At primary school level, grammar needs to be drummed in. It's the only way. And unfortunately, teachers are very hit and miss in the teaching of it.Some will put a lot of effort in and some will just about get there every day. In secondary school, you're supposed to build on what you know. It's quite hard on a teacher to have to teach a language from scratch to a level of 7 years of teaching, then continue on to prepare for whatever exam might be coming up.
And attitudes need to change. Most teenagers are so busy telling everyone how much they hate Irish, and how useless it is, that they don't bother even TRYING to try at it and write it off. It's just another language. There's no reason why it can't be treated like that.

Fad

Orlaladuck wrote: »

^This seriously annoyed me.

But students are Not lazy. To do HL at all means 40 minutes Minimum a night to do h/w. That doesn't include time it takes to do essays and whatnot. Add that to 7 or 8 other subjects worth and I really don't see how we're lazy.

A lot of people I know this year are aiming for very high points to get into better courses rather than just settling for an easy one, most people who repeat this year seem to be repeating not because they did badly or didn't get their choice but because in case they don't like their course and decide to change, they have the points to do so. That seems logical rather than lazy,no? I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to resist this year and we haven't even got to the mocks yet!

No, Irish is awfully taught in your school, and many other schools, but not necessarily EVERY school.

How many other student do you know put the same effort into Irish.

And what?

Professional Griefer

In primary school, it was thought horribly there. Well in mine in anyways. I know its only meant to be basic Irish, easy stuff. In 4th class we got the maths teacher, and missed the Irish teacher, all we did was Maths, played countdown and the grand national, the teacher put aload of sums on the board we had to do them then when it was done we all stood up and each sum was a ''fence'' get one wrong and you're out. It was fun:D
I only learned what ''Bhí me'' meant in 1st year, at the end. Bad stuff. Since there its been pretty bad. Got my JC done in 30 minutes and got a B. I'm screwed for my Oral. Ah well. Just pass, thats all I want.