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what do you think of the way irish is taught in schools

  • 02-01-2010 3:22am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭


    what does everyone think about the leaving cert course in irish
    i would love to be able to speak my native language but there is too much emphasis placed on poetry and novel extracts which we then have to anyalyse and discuss in detail using a language that we only have a rudimentary knowledgeof and are only learning and many people struggle with this. its alright in english we are fluent so we are able to talk about poetry and books. i think it should be taught like french as a foreign language (which it has basically been for the last couple of hundred years) and it should be taught like french ,verbs grammar oral comprehension only so as to make it possible to learn it and reclaim it. its about time those gob****es in power put aside the silly patriotism that surrounds the language and accept that the course needs to be revised

    jesus i went on a bit there well anyway i was hoping you would all share your toughts on the matter


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Black Magic


    I agree but there is nothing that can be done.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    There may be nothing that can be done by a Leaving Cert. student, but there are many measures in the pipeline curriculum-wise. A big priority is a large emphasis on oral skills. When they will be implemented, who knows, but the "gob****** in power" are well aware of the problem and have been working towards change for many years - not just in Irish, in all subjects.


  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭MunchkinKid


    The leaving cert irish course is ridiculous i think.. It doesnt come down to how good you are at irish at the end of the day just how much you can remember in the exam! 13 poems, 5 prose, 1 play and the stair and essays too.. Definitely the one i am most dreading because there is so much to learn!:eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The current curriculum is terrible, just absolutely terrible. The proof is in the pudding. If you can't speak a language after 13-14 years of study, something is wrong.

    They need to make poetry and that optional, and have a mandatory conversational class instead. There's no point in getting people to remember poems if they can't even speak the language.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭poisonated


    I agree.I would love to have a basic speaking level of Irish.I can hardly string a sentance together.I also think that they need to expand the number of subjects available


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 285 ✭✭sold


    As with any language the best way to learn it is to hear it spoken. When I did my leaving in 1991 I had no interest or love for the language, but today I think its a real pity I don't speak it. Its a rich language with a deep history that is being lost in Irish Society.

    When the republic was formed and it was decided to revive Irish the wrong steps was taken as it was taught in schools but not learned. The methods used to teach irish were the exact same as the ones used to teach Latin. Latin was taught as a reference language (not really to be spoken) but Irish does need to be spoken.

    We have some great Irish speakers (like Hyde a protestant) who loved the language and spoke it better than many Irish Catholics.

    We went down the road as a nation of teaching Irish but not speaking it. We could easily revive it be introduce more words into our everyday use. Who in Ireland does not know that the Irish word "taoiseach" means or "Dail" Why to we use some choice Irish words and not others.

    Irish could be returned and revived if we forced the Media, Advertising, Publis service to start using it more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭eVeNtInE


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Agreed. Irish revival should focus on the positives of the language, a creative learning environment, and a friendly attitude - rather than putting students under an immense amount of pressure to remember something that they genuinely don't need to know.

    Some people consider abolishing the Irish language. I don't. I just think we should give it a complete overhaul, and make it enjoyable to learn. The differences in opinion between people who hated studying it, and from those who enjoyed it make the topic an impossible thing to discuss on any rational level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    This again? >_<

    I'm one of those weirdos who actually thinks the current syllabus is fine, it's just poorly taught and a huge proportion of students are also incredibly lazy.

    Some of the Irish language implementations are a bit useless, cigarette packets for example? WHY! but anyway.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    f0ggy92 wrote: »
    its about time those gob****es in power put aside the silly patriotism that surrounds the language and accept that the course needs to be revised
    r

    Sorry about the double post, but I actually just read the OP properly.... >_>

    WHAT! The first bit there is just total horseshít, leave any anti government sentiment out of this........ the DOE know that the Irish course is outdated, but it is a horribly inefficient body. They're working on it, just dont expect to see any change in the time you're in school.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭dolliemix


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Agreed. Irish revival should focus on the positives of the language, a creative learning environment, and a friendly attitude - rather than putting students under an immense amount of pressure to remember something that they genuinely don't need to know.

    Some people consider abolishing the Irish language. I don't. I just think we should give it a complete overhaul, and make it enjoyable to learn. The differences in opinion between people who hated studying it, and from those who enjoyed it make the topic an impossible thing to discuss on any rational level.

    How can you 'abolish' a language?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    dolliemix wrote: »
    How can you 'abolish' a language?

    Abolishing state support rather.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭eVeNtInE


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    eVeNtInE wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That's what they do in the Gaelscoileanna .... yet everyone who doesn't have kids there or went there themselves detests them for some reason.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    eVeNtInE wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I would and I wouldn't. I'll explain.

    I think alot of complete find the leaving cert exam to be alot of pressure, and feel that it's too much sacrifice with little reward. I think we should have an exam, but only one that examines written and oral skills - and not the ability to remember poems, or spend needless hours translating texts.

    There should be 2 Irish classes - One that focuses on conversational Irish/writing and reading - and then "cultural Irish" - which focuses on the history of the language, poetry, books/authors and demands a little more out of a student. The latter should be optional.

    This way - it takes alot of pressure from students who genuinely don't like the language, but also allows them to learn practical elements of the language so that they actually have the ability to use it, and use it in real scenarios - rather than reciting the carlsberg advert.

    We need to start harvesting a genuine grá for the language. We can't throw an immense amount of pressure on students, without something in return.

    I think with the above, everyone gets to learn the language and be able to use it for practical purposes, and then those who want to pursue it even further can take on an additional cultural subject.

    But most important is the creation of a conversational orientated class. Teach people how to use the language. This will make it more relevant in society again.

    Just my opinion. I love Irish and learned it myself outside of school. But not everyone has the time or the resources to do so. I would have preferred to learn it in school so that I didn't have to try and scrape a few hours a week to learn it. Still, it's been an educational experience for me and I've loved every minute of it, and met amazing people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭seaner


    When I did my leaving cert, I treated Irish like any other subject that I needed to memorise as much as I could and then try my best at the papers. I did quite well and was happy with my honours B. I'll be honest and admit though that the moment I finished my leaving cert Irish, I then forgot about it completely.

    It didn't occur to me until recently that its actually a language....a language's purpose is to communicate right? How awful this didn't dawn on me until a couple years ago. I've since then taken a couple of night classes in Conradh Na Gaeilge and been to the Gaeltacht in Glencolmkille a couple of times too. My irish is getting along great and I would have to admit I've learnt SO much from it.

    The way its taught in schools is simply killing the language. Say what you will, but to me forcing a language on anyone is immediately going to send out the wrong signals. Take me for example, the moment I realised I didn't have to learn it, a real interest in it was sparked. Knowing that I was doing it for me meant so much more than knowing I needed to achieve a honours C or more in order to get into a certain course in college.


    I wish they're decide a new curriculum for secondary schools..i really do. Because if people experienced it as I have, I'm sure their opinions would soon change.

    Also a side note to how bad its taught....We often hear people using Is ea or 'sea as the IRish answer for 'Yes' . This is wrong in certain circumstances...as it literally means 'it is'. The first day of lessons in Conradh and my teacher explained this to me, and how I needed to answer any question by paying attention to how its asked..(An bhfuil = Tá / Nil etc etc ) and only in certain circumstances should is ea be used (or ni hea). I'd been taught IRish since i was five, yet no one had put it that simply to me before!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Fad wrote: »
    I'm one of those weirdos who actually thinks the current syllabus is fine, it's just poorly taught and a huge proportion of students are also incredibly lazy.

    I don't agree with this Fad.

    You can't put the blame on the students when they are continously left without even the slightest bit of fluency in the language after decades and decades of the same process.

    I've studied best practice for language study, and took it on my own to study the language. I've read countless books on language study and IMO the biggest failing with the Irish language is the lack of immersion in schools. Students are not surrounded by the language, and thus don't really have an opportunity to hear it, or use it.

    I've learnt so much more Irish, by meeting a few people once a week for a few pints than I ever did in school. The sole reason was that we only used Irish, which created a true immersion environment.

    You're living in denial if you think the current curriculum is fine. (And I don't mean that in a condescending way, so please don't take it as so).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Also, if anyone is interested - Ó Cuiv released the 2010-2030 language strategy draft, which outlines a 20 year plan to increase the visibility of Irish, and improve the curriculum. You can have a read here: http://www.eamonocuiv.ie/images/docs/draft_20_year_strategy.doc


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭dolliemix


    Completely agree with dlofnep's suggestions above post.

    I love idea of giving people the option of doing poetry or not. I also think the stair na Gaeilge is taught and examined really badly - they could make it more interesting because it is quite interesting and very relevant to our culture etc

    Maybe get the students to do a project based on an area of stair or a poet but go into greater detail. With this project, the oral and the listening exam - the written wouldn't be so scary. But with all the poetry and stair examined as a project as opposed to students spending hours of class time translating and studying difficult texts and freaking out if they miss a class that a particularly difficult text was taught in.

    So I would support getting rid of Paper 2 - but still having a sense of it through project research

    I get the impression that most people would like to be able to use Irish so it's a shame that so many people come out feeling they wasted time in school studying it.

    On the otherhand - when I was in school I hated Biology and Economics. I could say I was put off them for life as well. Different strokes for different folks. I loved the Irish course, ended up studying Irish in college and now I'm teaching the 'dreaded' course.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭eVeNtInE


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭dolliemix


    eVeNtInE wrote: »
    .

    I think that sounds like a really good way of making the Irish course better. (Is there any major reform in the pipeline for the teaching of the language actually?)

    To be honest there are plenty of resources and facilities out there trying to help us teach Irish in an 'enjoyable' way. The problem is they haven't changed how it is examined yet so even though teachers are dying to get out there and teach Irish as a modern and enjoyable language, at the end of the day, students need results and we inevitably have to gear them towards an exam that hasn't really changed much since the 70s!

    I have attented 3 or 4 inservice days at this stage. They give us great ideas but in reality in order to get the course covered and revised by the mocks (which is what the students and parents are demanding now) you don't have time to do all these fun things.

    Its a shame because so much more is available to students now. The internet, TG4 and European Union officially recognising the language. Really imo the exams should be geared towards all these forms of media and translation studies, because this is where the majority of kids will end up using it if they use it in the future.

    Not very many will end up writing peotry! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    eVeNtInE wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Aye, I'll highlight a few key points from the text.
    At post-primary level, where programmes in Irish are offered at three levels, there will be a strong emphasis on fostering oral, aural and written competence in Irish, and on ensuring a significant shift in emphasis towards Irish as a spoken language, where students can communicate and interact in a spontaneous way, and where Irish is spoken every day in schools.
    From as early as possible in Phase II, it is proposed to move towards a situation where partial Irish language immersion will be offered to all children. This will be implemented on a phased basis in line with the progress made in strengthening teacher’s competences in this area through a comprehensive investment programme of professional development for teachers. This could be delivered through the teaching of some mainstream subject matter in Irish

    Note that phase II is from 2013-2025. There is also a heavy focus on increasing the level of Irish for teachers, and to try and encourage the use of Irish in and out of the classroom. There will be also a new Gaeltacht scholarship scheme for primary school teachers.

    It's certainly worth a read of the full text. It looks promising. I took part in the original survey (which was then Plean 2028) and spoke in depth about the need for true immersion. Hopefully, this text will be implemented to it's fullest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭Seloth


    I cant remeber beng taught to speak irish in secondary school :p

    The bets way to do this,and I've even heard it off teachers is to start from the begininning like Spanish or French.I hate and despise Irish LC and it was my least favourite subject till 4th year...I'm so decrepid at it I have to get an extra one to one class...but I' love to be able to speak it...f**k Spanish or french or even Japanese...I want to be able to speak the language that was forcably driven out of my people.

    People say it shouldnt be mandatory,My past self would kill me but I think it should be...But Universitys need to easy up on it!...I need to get a pass in that and a forgein language to get into the main ones..thats the BS!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Crow92


    Is the Root of the problem not in primary schools??? i was taught very very little in primary school, i hadnt basic knowledge of grammer or anything. I basically started learning irish properly when i hit secondary school school.

    So some people may say you've been learning it for 13-14 years but i'd hardly call the first 8 of those years learning unless you went to a gaelscoil, and i believe most primary schools should be turned into gaelscoils. And for foreign children they are to be accommadated too.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 327 ✭✭zoom!


    There is only ONE way and ONE way only to learn a language and that's by going and speaking it in the region. Every teacher in our school comes from an irish speaking area and even if they don't they have spent some time there. same with french, the only person i have known to get an A is someone who went there and lived ever summer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 yo!its_yoyo


    I dropped to pass irish couple of weeks ago, simply because the amount of learning is not worth the time I could spend doing other things IMHO.
    In my former 'HL' class no-one can hold a conversation in irish. If you sent them to the gaeltacht it would be the same as sending them to tokyo!
    From the teachers point of view it is the LC result that matters so it is more iimportant to learn off stories/poems ect than to be able to actually speak the language.
    But we are supposed to be learning a LANGUAGE, not about how some fella wrote a funny poem about some student that goes drinking instead of attending college.
    And then learn about all the other things this poet has done...etc
    And at the end of it all a person doesn't know whether to answer An bhfuil? with Ta or bhi.
    It is not the teachers fault it is the examinations


  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭RexMundi


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't agree with this Fad.

    You can't put the blame on the students when they are continously left without even the slightest bit of fluency in the language after decades and decades of the same process.

    I've studied best practice for language study, and took it on my own to study the language. I've read countless books on language study and IMO the biggest failing with the Irish language is the lack of immersion in schools. Students are not surrounded by the language, and thus don't really have an opportunity to hear it, or use it.

    I've learnt so much more Irish, by meeting a few people once a week for a few pints than I ever did in school. The sole reason was that we only used Irish, which created a true immersion environment.

    You're living in denial if you think the current curriculum is fine. (And I don't mean that in a condescending way, so please don't take it as so).

    If students bother they can come out of the Irish School system with very good Irish. Neither of my parents speak Irish, I never even spent time in one of those Gaeltacht courses ach tá Gaeilge mhaith agam :D and I am far from gifted at languages, my french is abysmal...

    Anyway my point is that most students simply are not arsed. They do nothing for Irish and don't want to. In my school even most of the smart students drop down to ordinary level preferring to take up an extra subject like music or applied maths than spend any time learning their native tongue.

    The curriculum almost certainly could be improved but the poor standard of Irish students come out of school with is not the curriculum's fault, it is almost entirely their own.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭Junco Partner


    But we are supposed to be learning a LANGUAGE, not about how some fella wrote a funny poem about some student that goes drinking instead of attending college.

    martin o mealoid ya? what a bollocks of a story


  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭Orlaladuck


    Fad wrote: »
    This again? >_<

    I'm one of those weirdos who actually thinks the current syllabus is fine, it's just poorly taught and a huge proportion of students are also incredibly lazy.

    Some of the Irish language implementations are a bit useless, cigarette packets for example? WHY! but anyway.....


    ^This seriously annoyed me. Irish itself is Awfully taught. I came from Australia into 2nd class and I didn't start learning properly until I started in Secondary and even then unless I had one teacher once a week I wouldn't have been able to do Honours at all.
    But students are Not lazy. To do HL at all means 40 minutes Minimum a night to do h/w. That doesn't include time it takes to do essays and whatnot. Add that to 7 or 8 other subjects worth and I really don't see how we're lazy.
    A lot of people I know this year are aiming for very high points to get into better courses rather than just settling for an easy one, most people who repeat this year seem to be repeating not because they did badly or didn't get their choice but because in case they don't like their course and decide to change, they have the points to do so. That seems logical rather than lazy,no? I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to resist this year and we haven't even got to the mocks yet!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭dolliemix


    Orlaladuck wrote: »
    ^This seriously annoyed me. Irish itself is Awfully taught. I came from Australia into 2nd class and I didn't start learning properly until I started in Secondary and even then unless I had one teacher once a week I wouldn't have been able to do Honours at all.
    But students are Not lazy. To do HL at all means 40 minutes Minimum a night to do h/w. That doesn't include time it takes to do essays and whatnot. Add that to 7 or 8 other subjects worth and I really don't see how we're lazy.

    You're completely exaggerating here!

    But even if you're not I'd say there are about 20 students in the whole country putting this type of time in.

    It's not realistic and it's not required either.

    I've been teaching honours Irish for a few years now. The majority of my students do fup all in 5th Year. Start doing their homework in 6th Year. Do the mocks and realise that the course is manageable. Panic for the orals. Do fine in the oral and start studying properly because they realise it's not too bad.

    In general I don't think they're lazy, just initially daunted by the course.

    But there are some really lazy students out there - who want the honour but aren't prepared to put in the work.

    I've had loads of students (and their parents) over the years telling me they have to get an honour to do primary school teaching. You give them notes and talk them through a poem or essay or whatever - and then they come in and say they didn't understand. WTF?? You want the honour, you read the notes, you listen in class and you attempt the question. In this regard Fad is correct.

    The worst is when mammy comes in telling that she doesn't understand - Darling
    was brilliant in school in primary school and went to the Gaeltacht in 1st year, so why is there a problem? Your child doesn't study and only half does her homework so doesn't have a clue whats going on.


    Too many students nowadays expect the essays to be written for them. They don't take responsibilty for their own sense of awareness and learning. When I was school the teacher would give us some random topic to do an essay on - no preparation or help. You'd do it. If I did that to my students - they'd be asking me where the notes were or I'd get a half page answer.

    If you're doing honours Irish you should be embracing it. Speaking it whenever you can. Reading articles outside of the course. Contributing to websites. Watching TG4. If you do all of this you won't find it difficult to write essays or put an argument across. Every news bulletin on TG4 or on the Nuacht is worthy of an essay in itself.

    Its easy to put all the blame on teachers and the course. But you have to ask yourself, if you're finding it difficult, and time-consuming, is it really for you? Or are you approaching it correctly.

    Most people I know and the students I teach, who don't complain about Irish, just enjoy speaking it and aren't necessarily fixated on getting a certain result to a get a place in college.

    Orla - you're spending way too much time on it. Are you using some of that time to just chat to your friends as gaeilge or are you siiting trying to write essays? 25% of the exam is based on the oral so you should be spending 25% of your time practicing this. Another 18% is awarded for listening - so spend 18% of your time listening to the language.

    Agus go n-éirí leat


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