St John's Wort

SATSUMA

Is St John's wort effective in treating depression? As it is illegal in Ireland (unless prescribed by a GP) how do people determine the adequate dosage? Is there a concern with over dependence?

I've just come across it a fair bit in my reading and am interested in the idea at least, of an effective herbal remedy. Why is it illegal in Ireland? Yet not illegal to import?

Odysseus

SATSUMA wrote: »

Is St John's wort effective in treating depression? As it is illegal in Ireland (unless prescribed by a GP) how do people determine the adequate dosage? Is there a concern with over dependence?

I've just come across it a fair bit in my reading and am interested in the idea at least, of an effective herbal remedy. Why is it illegal in Ireland? Yet not illegal to import?

As you may know my main area is addiction, I have found that people who the 12 Step Recovery route sometimes use this as they don;t view it as a psychoactive substance. Those clients have reported that it helped with their mood. Dependence wise to the best of my knowledge it does not cause a physical dependence, however, from my viewpoint it is the addict who makes the drug addictive, not the drug itself. A person on morphine for pain made develop a dependancy on it withoput knowing but if its tapered down correctly they would never know they have been dependent. My mother was on for 8 month waiting on a hip operation, she was dependant but I worked out a withdrawal programme with her GP and to this day she wouldn't have a clue she was physically addicted.

I can't really say much more on it that that, as its not something I am that familiar with.

Johro

Heya, I used St Johns Wort a few years back, I went through a period where I was agoraphobic and depressed, the reasons for which I won't go into here but I have to say it helped me a lot and got me back on track. I'm not sure how much of my recovery was due to my taking the herb (in tablet form) but I do know it helped me a lot in taking away a lot of my anxiety and I felt more relaxed and better able to cope. I guess what I'm saying is; don't see it as a cure but as a tool to help you get where you need to be. At the time St Johns Wort had just been taken of the shelves in Ireland so I got a friend in England to post me some, I think she got it from Holland and Barrett or somewhere like that, <online purchase is illegal; edited by p.pete>. By the way, St Johns Wort has its own medical licence in Germany and is widely prescribed for depressive states, outselling Prozac eight times over. It's an effective antidepressant without the side effects of conventional drugs, which is surely why it disappeared from shelves here, can't have the big drug companies losing money can we?;) Hope this helps, good luck.

Johro

Forgot, on the question of dosage, I don't quite remember but I think I took one in the evening with a meal for a couple of weeks, just followed dosage instructions on the jar. The label on the jar said FSC (Food Supplement Company), Standardised St Johns Wort. The jar held 90 tablets. The Food Supplement Company is a division of Nutricia Ltd.

Odysseus

Whilst I believe that it may be of help to people, the first course of action should be to seek professional help rather than trying to self medicate. Therefore, I am open enough to state I have report the above posts about ordering prescription only meds online. I personally believe that if it helps people use it, but buying online is illegal.

Valmont

SATSUMA wrote: »

As it is illegal in Ireland (unless prescribed by a GP)

Sorry, hearing this just ignited my incredible rage over the ridiculous nanny state we live in. I want to take some St. John's wort, why the heck should the government tell me I can't? I mean, it's a plant for crying out loud.

Bodhisopha

Valmont wrote: »

Sorry, hearing this just ignited my incredible rage over the ridiculous nanny state we live in. I want to take some St. John's wort, why the heck should the government tell me I can't? I mean, it's a plant for crying out loud.

Don't worry about the legality of it, is my advice.

locum-motion

SATSUMA wrote: »

Why is it illegal in Ireland? Yet not illegal to import?

It's not illegal. It's prescription only. Big difference.

locum-motion

Valmont wrote: »

I mean, it's a plant for crying out loud.

Deadly Nightshade is a plant.
Monkshood aka Wolfsbane is a plant.
Marijuana is a plant.
The Opium Poppy is a plant.

etc
etc
etc

Valmont, if you have the idea in your head that it's harmless because it's a plant, or because it's natural, you are very, very, very wrong!

Valmont

locum-motion wrote: »

Valmont, if you have the idea in your head that it's harmless because it's a plant, or because it's natural, you are very, very, very wrong!

I don't have that idea in my head although I see why you would think so from my previous post. However, I do have the idea that the government should not have the right to dictate to anyone what plants they might want to eat regardless of their toxicity.

I can see why it is bad if someone is cooking up meth in their bathtub to distribute around the local primary school but people should have the right to consume and grow whatever natural substances they please so long as they are not infringing the rights of others in doing so.

Odysseus

Valmont wrote: »

I don't have that idea in my head although I see why you would think so from my previous post. However, I do have the idea that the government should not have the right to dictate to anyone what plants they might want to eat regardless of their toxicity.



I can see why it is bad if someone is cooking up meth in their bathtub to distribute around the local primary school but people should have the right to consume and grow whatever natural substances they please so long as they are not infringing the rights of others in doing so.

Out of interest Valmont, what's your opinion on someone making said meth or speed for themselves? I ask as the debate on the legality of drug often refers to ones of abuse or recreational use. I see both sides of the coin.

My concern here is people self medicating for mental distress and avoiding professional contact. Yes its a pain in the hole if that particular drug/remedy requires you to go to the GP, if you had used it in the past and found it useful. However, I'm sure alot of GP would prescribe it if the person required it and was not prepared to go on SSRI's for example. With this contact yhere is an increase in the possibility of the person being referred on for a psychological intervention.

I occassionally require a certain substance for a certain condition, it OTC but in most cases I have to get a script for it from my GP, because there is a potential associated with it, and this is for a physical complaint.

Johro

Going a little off topic here.. I actually didn't know it was illegal to buy a medicinal herb like St. Johns Wort online. How stupid, ridiculous and hypocritical that is.. I think most people would have a little common sense and check out whatever herb they'd like to use before actually ingesting it, which is precisely what the original poster did. Get all the information you can so you can make an informed decision. The law is an ass, but it's there all the same. Like I said before, I just asked a friend in England to send me some, this was a couple of years back, and I wonder why it is that you can go into any herbal/health store or Holland and Barrett or whatever and just buy it. Or maybe that's different now. Does anyone know?

Johro

Valmont wrote: »

I don't have that idea in my head although I see why you would think so from my previous post. However, I do have the idea that the government should not have the right to dictate to anyone what plants they might want to eat regardless of their toxicity.

I can see why it is bad if someone is cooking up meth in their bathtub to distribute around the local primary school but people should have the right to consume and grow whatever natural substances they please so long as they are not infringing the rights of others in doing so.

Right, right, and right again! Nice one.

Johro

locum-motion wrote: »

Deadly Nightshade is a plant.
Monkshood aka Wolfsbane is a plant.
Marijuana is a plant.
The Opium Poppy is a plant.

etc
etc
etc

Valmont, if you have the idea in your head that it's harmless because it's a plant, or because it's natural, you are very, very, very wrong!

I'm sorry but, was anyone here looking to buy a bit of Deadly Nightshade? Or Monkshood? Or Hemlock? A little Hogweed maybe? Yum yum.. I don't think so.

Torakx

well back when i used it briefly i was able to buy a bottle up in belfast in a heatlh food shop.it was illegal to buy in ireland at that time but not in britain.
i myself didnt take it long enough to know if it was that effective though.
id look into first why exactly i needed it and try see all angles before going on medication.

Valmont

Johro wrote: »

.. I think most people would have a little common sense and check out whatever herb they'd like to use before actually ingesting it,

Even if they don't, it's not the goverment's job to see to it that one or two eejits are "protected" from harmful substances.

Odysseus

It was the IMO was it not that was the main pressure group behind this and as I understand it is them who enforce it.

Johro

Valmont wrote: »

Even if they don't, it's not the goverment's job to see to it that one or two eejits are "protected" from harmful substances.

Exactly.

eth0_

Perhaps i'm mis-remembering, but wasn't St. John's Wort banned because of a cluster of deaths and organ failures that occured because a large batch of it was tainted? I think it happened in the States or Canada.

The only other reason I can think for the ban is because it interacts with some medications (most famously the oral contraceptive pill). Or did big-pharma have a hand in the ban...

locum-motion

Johro wrote: »

I'm sorry but, was anyone here looking to buy a bit of Deadly Nightshade? Or Monkshood? Or Hemlock? A little Hogweed maybe? Yum yum.. I don't think so.

No, they were not, but that doesn't invalidate my answer because I never said they were. Valmont apparently believes that it shouldn't be regulated because it's a plant. See this quote.

Valmont wrote: »

I want to take some St. John's wort, why the heck should the government tell me I can't? I mean, it's a plant for crying out loud.

I was pointing out examples of other plants that are regulated. All with very good reason.

locum-motion

Odysseus wrote: »

It was the IMO was it not that was the main pressure group behind this and as I understand it is them who enforce it.

I'd looooove to see a source on this one!
The IMO doesn't enforce drug regulations. It is the Irish Medical Organisation, the professional organisation for doctors.
The IMB does enforce drug regulations. It is the Irish Medicines Board, the body responsible for licencing medicines in Ireland.

locum-motion

eth0_ wrote: »

Perhaps i'm mis-remembering, but wasn't St. John's Wort banned because of a cluster of deaths and organ failures that occured because a large batch of it was tainted? I think it happened in the States or Canada.

The only other reason I can think for the ban is because it interacts with some medications (most famously the oral contraceptive pill). Or did big-pharma have a hand in the ban...

It wasn't banned, it was moved to prescription only status. Will people please stop referring to it as 'illegal', 'banned' etc. It's not.

And the reason it was changed was because of potentially dangerous interactions with other medications. I'm not aware of any specific instance of a batch being tainted. The usual procedure when a batch of something is tainted is to recall that batch, not to change the entire regulatory framework for the drug. That said, problems can and do arise with natural/herbal remedies because of the difficulties in standardising a dose. In much the same way as an apple tree may produce different numbers or quality of apples in different years, a plant may produce a varible quantity of the active ingredient or two different plants can have different amounts of the active. So it is possible that there was a batch that was particularly potent, and therefore would have a greater likelihood of side effects or interactions.

As to bigpharma...
I'm sure they'd love to be able to identify, isolate and sell the active ingredient in St. John's Wort. But if you're suggesting that they somehow secretly influenced the govt to change the law, then perhaps that discussion belongs in the Conspiracy Theories forum, not Psychology!!

JuliusCaesar

Valmont wrote: »

Sorry, hearing this just ignited my incredible rage over the ridiculous nanny state we live in. I want to take some St. John's wort, why the heck should the government tell me I can't? I mean, it's a plant for crying out loud.

Not to disrepect you Valmont, and probably off topic, but when I see the words "nanny state" it means to me that there is not a lot of thinking going on only parrotting. When does the fact that the state makes laws become a nanny state? When is it right, when is it overstepping the levels of social protection necessary? Should we also say that there shouldn't be laws against murder, because people should know to look after themselves?

As for people actually making wise choices, you only have to look at the Darwin Awards for the extreme, and around you for more moderate examples. Do people choose to become addicted to cigarettes or alcohol? Have you ever known people to take drugs they were offered at a party without having a clue what they were? Have men taken Viagra when they don't have erectile dysfunction? Is St John's Wort sold in calibrated doses? Is the SJW sold on the internet, actually the real stuff?

Not everyone has the knowledge to look after themselves properly. I'd prefer all drugs of whatever sort whether of herbal or chemical origin to be regulated.

Odysseus

locum-motion wrote: »

I'd looooove to see a source on this one!
The IMO doesn't enforce drug regulations. It is the Irish Medical Organisation, the professional organisation for doctors.
The IMB does enforce drug regulations. It is the Irish Medicines Board, the body responsible for licencing medicines in Ireland.

Cheers, slip of the fingers, in Freudian terms, yeah I meant IMB, but would I be correct in the above with the O changed to the B of course!

Konata

I'm taking SJW at the moment, bought it up North. Decided to start taking it after researching it and deciding it was worth a try. I've been taking it for 6 weeks now without a massive change but I have been living in very different circumstances to nomal the last few weeks so that deviation from normality may have some influence.

However, I visited a psychiatrist last week and was advised to wean myself off SJW and to start on anti-depressants. I wasn't very impressed with this advice as I really don't want to go on anti-depressants if I can avoid it, and this was only my first assessment. That said, I have quite a history of mental illnesses and have had various treatments over the years (but for different things). Whatever the case, this psychiatrist didn't seem willing to give SJW a shot at all and was concerned about its interactions with other meds (even though I'm not on any).

I'm finding it hard to determine how much SJW I should be taking, keep reading conflicting advice. I started on 1 tablet (300mg/900ug hypericin yield) a day, then moved to 2 tablets a day about 2 weeks ago. Have mostly read to take 3 tablets a day but it's all quite confusing.

JuliusCaesar

and the difference between anti-depressants and St John's Wort is?

note the Cochrane Review

Konata

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

and the difference between anti-depressants and St John's Wort is?

note the Cochrane Review

The fact that it has proven fewer side effects than anti-depressants leads me to believe that it should be tried as a treatment before anti-depressants.

Odysseus

FallingSlowly wrote: »

I'm finding it hard to determine how much SJW I should be taking, keep reading conflicting advice. I started on 1 tablet (300mg/900ug hypericin yield) a day, then moved to 2 tablets a day about 2 weeks ago. Have mostly read to take 3 tablets a day but it's all quite confusing.

This is the issue I have around self-medicating, people not being sure of correct doses. The saff in health food shop would have not psychological training and may offer this when its not of use.

The psych may not have wanted to issue it for varying reasons, or he could be just totally against it. I just wanted to note he may have had medical reasons for his judgement.

seanybiker

I used to take it about 10 years ago. It wasnt illegal then anyways. I used to get it over the counter. I found it ok. Nothing great about it or anything. Definitely didnt find it to be addictive.

Odysseus

seanybiker wrote: »

I used to take it about 10 years ago. It wasnt illegal then anyways. I used to get it over the counter. I found it ok. Nothing great about it or anything. Definitely didnt find it to be addictive.

It's not illegal or addictive Seany. My problem is people using it rather than getting psychological help. I have seen it help alot of depressed clients, I have quite a few "recovering" addicts as clients most of those on a 12 step treatment programme won't go near any drug prescribed by a GP or a psych.

So I'm for it in a way, my difficulties is people taking it when there may be a depper psychological issue at play, and since the go to a health shop nobody is going to pick up on that. Even in cases where it is simple depression, some form of therapy might eliminate the need for it, which if they where being by a psych reg that might happen.

goingpostal

I take it on and off. I get it from <cough> <cough>. It always seems to work pretty well. I have some slight reservations about taking it. I have read alot about it online and it definitely seems like a better option than SSRI's or other types of prescribed anti-depressants. I used those in the past and didn't like them. Bad side effects to do with my stomach feeling sick and not feeling like I was in control of my mind or thoughts when I was on prozac. Like I didn't give a shít what I said. I have been to doctors and psychiatrists in the past and I usually only got 5 mins talking to them. Its not their fault that they can't spend time with me, they have to see tons of other patients too. It seems pretty safe and non-addictive, but my old habit of stopping taking my medication when it starts working keeps coming back to haunt me. I guess that proves that it is non-addictive. If it was presciption-only in more countries other than Ireland I would go to the doctor to get it, but seeing as it is OTC in so many countries like Germany, UK and USA says to me that it is safe to take. However if I was to be put on any other medication by a GP I would tell him I am taking this.