A caring and loving god?

mardybumbum

I watched a very interesting documentary on Ch4 yesterday evening entitled "TSUNAMI: Where was God?".

A synopsis of the film can be found here and it has even been uploaded to youtube.

Basically, the presenter David Rosenberg talks to Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and poses the same question; how they reconcile their belief in God(s) with natural disasters that claim thousands of lives.

I would be interested in hearing how the religious on boards can still believe in a god when so many innocent people lose their lives to earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, e.t.c.

The only way in which I have been able to explain it is that if there is a god, it wants to punish innocent people, or it doesnt care about them.

Either way, I dont care very much for it.

antiskeptic

mardybumbum wrote: »

Basically, the presenter David Rosenberg talks to Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and poses the same question; how they reconcile their belief in God(s) with natural disasters that claim thousands of lives.

I would be interested in hearing how the religious on boards can still believe in a god when so many innocent people lose their lives to earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, e.t.c.

The only way in which I have been able to explain it is that if there is a god, it wants to punish innocent people, or it doesnt care about them.

From the Christian perspective, mankind isn't innocent, mankind are sinners. Sinners are better described as guilty rather than innocent so you're position would have to shift to accomodate this (the usual route folk take at this juncture is a swift right turn towards "but what about children who haven't consciously sinned yet?"). Given mankind guilty and sinful we can begin to resolve the whereabouts of God during the Tsunami by suggesting the possibility that God was directly behind it - as an expression of his wrath against mans sin - rendering the Tsunami supernatural rather than natural.

Another way to view it would be to consider nature as suffering the effects of the fall just as man does - which renders natural disasters without Gods direct intervention. The effects of the fall were an extension of the promised consequences attaching to Adams choice to disobey God. In relinquishing nature to decay and disaster, God permitted, in less direct fashion, that Adam and his offspring (us) would suffer the consequences of Adams choice

In both instances you aren't dealing with a sifutation to do with God caring or no. Your dealing with a situation in which God's wrath is poured out on disobedience.

Either way, I dont care very much for it.

And he doesn't care very much for sin it seems. The caring/loving bit finds it's application elsewhere in the story: having to do with what God has done to recify this awful situation that exists between fallen, sinful man .. and God.

tudlytops

Basically, when something good happens "praise the Lord" and when something bad happens " God moves in mysterious way" Go figure.

Soul Winner

mardybumbum wrote: »

I watched a very interesting documentary on Ch4 yesterday evening entitled "TSUNAMI: Where was God?".

A synopsis of the film can be found here and it has even been uploaded to youtube.

Basically, the presenter David Rosenberg talks to Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and poses the same question; how they reconcile their belief in God(s) with natural disasters that claim thousands of lives.

I would be interested in hearing how the religious on boards can still believe in a god when so many innocent people lose their lives to earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, e.t.c.

The only way in which I have been able to explain it is that if there is a god, it wants to punish innocent people, or it doesnt care about them.

Either way, I dont care very much for it.

Even if God deliberately killed all those people in that tsunami He doesn't have to answer to anyone for it.

tudlytops

Soul Winner wrote: »

Even if God deliberately killed all those people in that tsunami He doesn't have to answer to anyone for it.

That says it all, pure evil with no accountability.

Love and forgiveness gone wrong

Soul Winner

tudlytops wrote: »

That says it all, pure evil with no accountability.

Love and forgiveness gone wrong

Look, if He exist at all then everything comes from Him, including all the good things that you hold dear in your life, family, friends, health, wealth and so on. It would be better to thank Him for those things on a daily basis than to judge Him because natural disasters happen to kill lots of people. He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone? Be very careful when cursing God, you know not what you do.

MooseJam

Soul Winner wrote: »

He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone?

I would happily die for my family and those I love, if I knew I would rise again I'd die for my cat.

mardybumbum

antiskeptic wrote: »

(the usual route folk take at this juncture is a swift right turn towards "but what about children who haven't consciously sinned yet?").

Thats exactly the route I intended to take once original sin was mentioned.
So what about those children?
He didn't give them much of a chance to undo their sins.

He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone?

Im sorry, but did you just say God died for us?
And if God is such a prick then why do you worship him?

Turtwig

Soul Winner wrote: »

He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone?

You forgot to add :
"Just so He could kill them again in freakish randomly occurring events which His children will one day come to understand and predict their occurrences. Until ultimately stopping them forever."

tudlytops

Soul Winner wrote: »

Look, if He exist at all then everything comes from Him, including all the good things that you hold dear in your life, family, friends, health, wealth and so on. It would be better to thank Him for those things on a daily basis than to judge Him because natural disasters happen to kill lots of people. He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone? Be very careful when cursing God, you know not what you do.

In that case he would have a lot to answer for in my life anyway, not much left to hold dear.

In any case one would have to belive in a God first.

tudlytops

MooseJam wrote: »

I would happily die for my family and those I love, if I knew I would rise again I'd die for my cat.

So would I if i believed that would help them, and I'm no saint

Soul Winner

mardybumbum wrote: »

Im sorry, but did you just say God died for us? And if God is such a prick then why do you worship him?

How do reconcile Him dying for us as being a prick?

Soul Winner

MooseJam wrote: »

I would happily die for my family and those I love, if I knew I would rise again I'd die for my cat.

No you missed my point perfectly. If God exists, then the fact that you have a family is because of God and yet you will not thank Him for that? But a natural disaster happens and people get killed and God is evil. How do you know it was God who caused the earthquake that generated the tsunami? Man can cause earthquakes as well you know, how do you know for sure that it wasn't man made?

MooseJam

And he didn't die did he, no he didn't, he's happily up in the sky sending tsunami's against those he died for - killing those he died for, whats that about ?
Real people, flesh and blood people are dieing for those they love every day.
Because they love them.
Something your god does not know nor comprehend in any way.
Your death god.
All he knows is kill and maim and butcher and slaughter.
And you bow down to this tyrant and try to tell us that the death of a quarter MILLION people was his doing and we should praise that, what planet do you live on ?

So Jesus died on the cross - worthless totally meaningless , a GOD omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence died on the cross,

Um sorry but no if he is the above 'dieing' on the cross means nothing absolutely nothing

I' mere flesh and blood, would die for just my cat, not all of humanity. just my cat, if I knew i were to raise again.

mardybumbum

Soul Winner wrote: »

How do reconcile Him dying for us as being a prick?

I was unaware that God died for us.
Infact, I didnt even know that God could die.
You learn something new everyday I guess. :pac:

Someone that wipes out thousands of lives because their ancestors sinned could be described as being a bit of a prick.

Why even create the lives if he knew that they would only suffer?

tudlytops

Soul Winner wrote: »

No you missed my point perfectly. If God exists, then the fact that you have a family is because of God and yet you will not thank Him for that? But a natural disaster happens and people get killed and God is evil. How do you know it was God who caused the earthquake that generated the tsunami? Man can cause earthquakes as well you know, how do you know for sure that it wasn't man made?

So I would thank him for giving me a child, a mother, etc and when he takes them away do i thank him too or do I say something stupid like, God has a purpose for them, that is why they were taken away.

Rubbish

Bodhisopha

These awful tragedies are merely shadows in a beautiful picture.

tudlytops

Bodhisopha wrote: »

These awful tragedies are merely shadows in a beautiful picture.

what beautiful picture, if you haven't noticed this world is falling apart

mardybumbum

Soul Winner wrote: »

How do you know it was God who caused the earthquake that generated the tsunami? Man can cause earthquakes as well you know, how do you know for sure that it wasn't man made?

Well by creating the earth the way it is he did cause the tsunami in an indirect manner.
Could he not have created a planet where the tectonic plates did not rub against eachother?
Even if man caused an earthquake ( I dont know how thats possible btw ) could God not have stepped in?
Sure didnt he part the Red Sea for Moses.

Soul Winner

Malty_T wrote: »

You forgot to add :
"Just so He could kill them again in freakish randomly occurring events which His children will one day come to understand and predict their occurrences. Until ultimately stopping them forever."

More like using the technology as a weapon of war and creating more of their own.

tudlytops

If there was a God i would imagine that living forever would become quite tiresome, so he creates this little world with little people like a dolls house to amuse himself.

A bit like the Greek Gods.

I think God likes to play Sims

Soul Winner

tudlytops wrote: »

So I would thank him for giving me a child, a mother, etc and when he takes them away do i thank him too or do I say something stupid like, God has a purpose for them, that is why they were taken away.

Rubbish

My point is that you don't thank Him for anything. We are like spoiled little brats who just want to take in all the time and never want to give out. Our feet are quick to judge God when things go wrong but slow to thank Him for anything good in our lives. Life is not a privilege you know, it is a responsibility. Everyone will give an account of their life at some stage. If God doesn't exists then you have nothing to worry about, and that tsunami was just a natural disaster.

Bodhisopha

tudlytops wrote: »

what beautiful picture, if you haven't noticed this world is falling apart

Ah, but in your naivety you assume the world is the picture.

It's bigger than us.

Turtwig

tudlytops wrote: »

I think God likes to play Sims

ROFLMAO

Bodhisopha wrote:

Ah, but in your naivety you assume the world is the picture.

It's bigger than us.

It's still a hostile and ugly picture though whatever way you want to look at it.

Soul Winner

MooseJam wrote: »

And he didn't die did he, no he didn't, he's happily up in the sky sending tsunami's against those he died for - killing those he died for, whats that about ?
Real people, flesh and blood people are dieing for those they love every day.
Because they love them.
Something your god does not know nor comprehend in any way.
Your death god.
All he knows is kill and maim and butcher and slaughter.
And you bow down to this tyrant and try to tell us that the death of a quarter MILLION people was his doing and we should praise that, what planet do you live on ?

So Jesus died on the cross - worthless totally meaningless , a GOD omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence died on the cross,

Um sorry but no if he is the above 'dieing' on the cross means nothing absolutely nothing

I' mere flesh and blood, would die for just my cat, not all of humanity. just my cat, if I knew i were to raise again.

You're lack of understanding is staggering to say the least. God didn't create this world for us. He created us for this world. And WE messed it up and WE are still messing it up and WE have to live with the consequences.

Turtwig

Soul Winner wrote: »

My point is that you don't thank Him for anything. We are like spoiled little brats who just want to take in all the time and never want to give out. Our feet are quick to judge God when things go wrong but slow to thank Him for anything good in our lives. Life is not a privilege you know, it is a responsibility. Everyone will give an account of their life at some stage. If God doesn't exists then you have nothing to worry about, and that tsunami was just a natural disaster.

If there is God, I would thank Him for many things (as I once did). However, I would not refrain from questioning His judgements on many things either. Soul, the question is not about what we fail to thank God for. It's about how you can can thank God for some things and reconcile them with God's unpleasant actions.

tudlytops

Soul Winner wrote: »

My point is that you don't thank Him for anything. We are like spoiled little brats who just want to take in all the time and never want to give out. Our feet are quick to judge God when things go wrong but slow to thank Him for anything good in our lives. Life is not a privilege you know, it is a responsibility. Everyone will give an account of their life at some stage. If God doesn't exists then you have nothing to worry about, and that tsunami was just a natural disaster.

You assume to much, i was raise catholic, going to church and thanking God for a lot, until I woke up and seen it for what it was.

A fairytale gone wrong, near the less amusing reading.

And no I'm not worried, what made you think i was worried?

tudlytops

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Ah, but in your naivety you assume the world is the picture.

It's bigger than us.

Oh yes heaven and hell, eternal life, etc, etc, still not a very nice picture

So tell me what is it all about?

mardybumbum

Soul Winner wrote: »

You're lack of understanding is staggering to say the least. God didn't create this world for us. He created us for this world. And WE messed it up and WE are still messing it up and WE have to live with the consequences.

Yes, I understand that humans are messing up the planet.
But why does god take the lives of those who have not even had the chance to "mess up the planet"?
Why would god create a life only to vanquish it 3 months later?

tudlytops

mardybumbum wrote: »

Yes, I understand that humans are messing up the planet.
But why does god take the lives of those who have not even had the chance to "mess up the planet"?
Why would god create a life only to vanquish it 3 months later?

Because of the sins of the your father - something along those lines, witch means God is revengeful.

And if your father was a saint you will play for the sins of your grandfather, but pay you will.

cooker3

Soul Winner wrote: »

You're lack of understanding is staggering to say the least. God didn't create this world for us. He created us for this world. And WE messed it up and WE are still messing it up and WE have to live with the consequences.

Do you accept genesis as literally true?
If not then what exactly did we or our ancestors do that justified the last x amount of years of god wraths?