A caring and loving god?

mardybumbum

I watched a very interesting documentary on Ch4 yesterday evening entitled "TSUNAMI: Where was God?".

A synopsis of the film can be found here and it has even been uploaded to youtube.

Basically, the presenter David Rosenberg talks to Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and poses the same question; how they reconcile their belief in God(s) with natural disasters that claim thousands of lives.

I would be interested in hearing how the religious on boards can still believe in a god when so many innocent people lose their lives to earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, e.t.c.

The only way in which I have been able to explain it is that if there is a god, it wants to punish innocent people, or it doesnt care about them.

Either way, I dont care very much for it.

antiskeptic

mardybumbum wrote: »

Basically, the presenter David Rosenberg talks to Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and poses the same question; how they reconcile their belief in God(s) with natural disasters that claim thousands of lives.

I would be interested in hearing how the religious on boards can still believe in a god when so many innocent people lose their lives to earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, e.t.c.

The only way in which I have been able to explain it is that if there is a god, it wants to punish innocent people, or it doesnt care about them.

From the Christian perspective, mankind isn't innocent, mankind are sinners. Sinners are better described as guilty rather than innocent so you're position would have to shift to accomodate this (the usual route folk take at this juncture is a swift right turn towards "but what about children who haven't consciously sinned yet?"). Given mankind guilty and sinful we can begin to resolve the whereabouts of God during the Tsunami by suggesting the possibility that God was directly behind it - as an expression of his wrath against mans sin - rendering the Tsunami supernatural rather than natural.

Another way to view it would be to consider nature as suffering the effects of the fall just as man does - which renders natural disasters without Gods direct intervention. The effects of the fall were an extension of the promised consequences attaching to Adams choice to disobey God. In relinquishing nature to decay and disaster, God permitted, in less direct fashion, that Adam and his offspring (us) would suffer the consequences of Adams choice

In both instances you aren't dealing with a sifutation to do with God caring or no. Your dealing with a situation in which God's wrath is poured out on disobedience.

Either way, I dont care very much for it.

And he doesn't care very much for sin it seems. The caring/loving bit finds it's application elsewhere in the story: having to do with what God has done to recify this awful situation that exists between fallen, sinful man .. and God.

tudlytops

Basically, when something good happens "praise the Lord" and when something bad happens " God moves in mysterious way" Go figure.

Soul Winner

mardybumbum wrote: »

I watched a very interesting documentary on Ch4 yesterday evening entitled "TSUNAMI: Where was God?".

A synopsis of the film can be found here and it has even been uploaded to youtube.

Basically, the presenter David Rosenberg talks to Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and poses the same question; how they reconcile their belief in God(s) with natural disasters that claim thousands of lives.

I would be interested in hearing how the religious on boards can still believe in a god when so many innocent people lose their lives to earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, e.t.c.

The only way in which I have been able to explain it is that if there is a god, it wants to punish innocent people, or it doesnt care about them.

Either way, I dont care very much for it.

Even if God deliberately killed all those people in that tsunami He doesn't have to answer to anyone for it.

tudlytops

Soul Winner wrote: »

Even if God deliberately killed all those people in that tsunami He doesn't have to answer to anyone for it.

That says it all, pure evil with no accountability.

Love and forgiveness gone wrong

Soul Winner

tudlytops wrote: »

That says it all, pure evil with no accountability.

Love and forgiveness gone wrong

Look, if He exist at all then everything comes from Him, including all the good things that you hold dear in your life, family, friends, health, wealth and so on. It would be better to thank Him for those things on a daily basis than to judge Him because natural disasters happen to kill lots of people. He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone? Be very careful when cursing God, you know not what you do.

MooseJam

Soul Winner wrote: »

He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone?

I would happily die for my family and those I love, if I knew I would rise again I'd die for my cat.

mardybumbum

antiskeptic wrote: »

(the usual route folk take at this juncture is a swift right turn towards "but what about children who haven't consciously sinned yet?").

Thats exactly the route I intended to take once original sin was mentioned.
So what about those children?
He didn't give them much of a chance to undo their sins.

He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone?

Im sorry, but did you just say God died for us?
And if God is such a prick then why do you worship him?

Turtwig

Soul Winner wrote: »

He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone?

You forgot to add :
"Just so He could kill them again in freakish randomly occurring events which His children will one day come to understand and predict their occurrences. Until ultimately stopping them forever."

tudlytops

Soul Winner wrote: »

Look, if He exist at all then everything comes from Him, including all the good things that you hold dear in your life, family, friends, health, wealth and so on. It would be better to thank Him for those things on a daily basis than to judge Him because natural disasters happen to kill lots of people. He cared enough for those people to die for them, when did you last do that for anyone? Be very careful when cursing God, you know not what you do.

In that case he would have a lot to answer for in my life anyway, not much left to hold dear.

In any case one would have to belive in a God first.

tudlytops

MooseJam wrote: »

I would happily die for my family and those I love, if I knew I would rise again I'd die for my cat.

So would I if i believed that would help them, and I'm no saint

Soul Winner

mardybumbum wrote: »

Im sorry, but did you just say God died for us? And if God is such a prick then why do you worship him?

How do reconcile Him dying for us as being a prick?

Soul Winner

MooseJam wrote: »

I would happily die for my family and those I love, if I knew I would rise again I'd die for my cat.

No you missed my point perfectly. If God exists, then the fact that you have a family is because of God and yet you will not thank Him for that? But a natural disaster happens and people get killed and God is evil. How do you know it was God who caused the earthquake that generated the tsunami? Man can cause earthquakes as well you know, how do you know for sure that it wasn't man made?

MooseJam

And he didn't die did he, no he didn't, he's happily up in the sky sending tsunami's against those he died for - killing those he died for, whats that about ?
Real people, flesh and blood people are dieing for those they love every day.
Because they love them.
Something your god does not know nor comprehend in any way.
Your death god.
All he knows is kill and maim and butcher and slaughter.
And you bow down to this tyrant and try to tell us that the death of a quarter MILLION people was his doing and we should praise that, what planet do you live on ?

So Jesus died on the cross - worthless totally meaningless , a GOD omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence died on the cross,

Um sorry but no if he is the above 'dieing' on the cross means nothing absolutely nothing

I' mere flesh and blood, would die for just my cat, not all of humanity. just my cat, if I knew i were to raise again.

mardybumbum

Soul Winner wrote: »

How do reconcile Him dying for us as being a prick?

I was unaware that God died for us.
Infact, I didnt even know that God could die.
You learn something new everyday I guess. :pac:

Someone that wipes out thousands of lives because their ancestors sinned could be described as being a bit of a prick.

Why even create the lives if he knew that they would only suffer?

tudlytops

Soul Winner wrote: »

No you missed my point perfectly. If God exists, then the fact that you have a family is because of God and yet you will not thank Him for that? But a natural disaster happens and people get killed and God is evil. How do you know it was God who caused the earthquake that generated the tsunami? Man can cause earthquakes as well you know, how do you know for sure that it wasn't man made?

So I would thank him for giving me a child, a mother, etc and when he takes them away do i thank him too or do I say something stupid like, God has a purpose for them, that is why they were taken away.

Rubbish

Bodhisopha

These awful tragedies are merely shadows in a beautiful picture.

tudlytops

Bodhisopha wrote: »

These awful tragedies are merely shadows in a beautiful picture.

what beautiful picture, if you haven't noticed this world is falling apart

mardybumbum

Soul Winner wrote: »

How do you know it was God who caused the earthquake that generated the tsunami? Man can cause earthquakes as well you know, how do you know for sure that it wasn't man made?

Well by creating the earth the way it is he did cause the tsunami in an indirect manner.
Could he not have created a planet where the tectonic plates did not rub against eachother?
Even if man caused an earthquake ( I dont know how thats possible btw ) could God not have stepped in?
Sure didnt he part the Red Sea for Moses.

Soul Winner

Malty_T wrote: »

You forgot to add :
"Just so He could kill them again in freakish randomly occurring events which His children will one day come to understand and predict their occurrences. Until ultimately stopping them forever."

More like using the technology as a weapon of war and creating more of their own.

tudlytops

If there was a God i would imagine that living forever would become quite tiresome, so he creates this little world with little people like a dolls house to amuse himself.

A bit like the Greek Gods.

I think God likes to play Sims

Soul Winner

tudlytops wrote: »

So I would thank him for giving me a child, a mother, etc and when he takes them away do i thank him too or do I say something stupid like, God has a purpose for them, that is why they were taken away.

Rubbish

My point is that you don't thank Him for anything. We are like spoiled little brats who just want to take in all the time and never want to give out. Our feet are quick to judge God when things go wrong but slow to thank Him for anything good in our lives. Life is not a privilege you know, it is a responsibility. Everyone will give an account of their life at some stage. If God doesn't exists then you have nothing to worry about, and that tsunami was just a natural disaster.

Bodhisopha

tudlytops wrote: »

what beautiful picture, if you haven't noticed this world is falling apart

Ah, but in your naivety you assume the world is the picture.

It's bigger than us.

Turtwig

tudlytops wrote: »

I think God likes to play Sims

ROFLMAO

Bodhisopha wrote:

Ah, but in your naivety you assume the world is the picture.

It's bigger than us.

It's still a hostile and ugly picture though whatever way you want to look at it.

Soul Winner

MooseJam wrote: »

And he didn't die did he, no he didn't, he's happily up in the sky sending tsunami's against those he died for - killing those he died for, whats that about ?
Real people, flesh and blood people are dieing for those they love every day.
Because they love them.
Something your god does not know nor comprehend in any way.
Your death god.
All he knows is kill and maim and butcher and slaughter.
And you bow down to this tyrant and try to tell us that the death of a quarter MILLION people was his doing and we should praise that, what planet do you live on ?

So Jesus died on the cross - worthless totally meaningless , a GOD omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence died on the cross,

Um sorry but no if he is the above 'dieing' on the cross means nothing absolutely nothing

I' mere flesh and blood, would die for just my cat, not all of humanity. just my cat, if I knew i were to raise again.

You're lack of understanding is staggering to say the least. God didn't create this world for us. He created us for this world. And WE messed it up and WE are still messing it up and WE have to live with the consequences.

Turtwig

Soul Winner wrote: »

My point is that you don't thank Him for anything. We are like spoiled little brats who just want to take in all the time and never want to give out. Our feet are quick to judge God when things go wrong but slow to thank Him for anything good in our lives. Life is not a privilege you know, it is a responsibility. Everyone will give an account of their life at some stage. If God doesn't exists then you have nothing to worry about, and that tsunami was just a natural disaster.

If there is God, I would thank Him for many things (as I once did). However, I would not refrain from questioning His judgements on many things either. Soul, the question is not about what we fail to thank God for. It's about how you can can thank God for some things and reconcile them with God's unpleasant actions.

tudlytops

Soul Winner wrote: »

My point is that you don't thank Him for anything. We are like spoiled little brats who just want to take in all the time and never want to give out. Our feet are quick to judge God when things go wrong but slow to thank Him for anything good in our lives. Life is not a privilege you know, it is a responsibility. Everyone will give an account of their life at some stage. If God doesn't exists then you have nothing to worry about, and that tsunami was just a natural disaster.

You assume to much, i was raise catholic, going to church and thanking God for a lot, until I woke up and seen it for what it was.

A fairytale gone wrong, near the less amusing reading.

And no I'm not worried, what made you think i was worried?

tudlytops

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Ah, but in your naivety you assume the world is the picture.

It's bigger than us.

Oh yes heaven and hell, eternal life, etc, etc, still not a very nice picture

So tell me what is it all about?

mardybumbum

Soul Winner wrote: »

You're lack of understanding is staggering to say the least. God didn't create this world for us. He created us for this world. And WE messed it up and WE are still messing it up and WE have to live with the consequences.

Yes, I understand that humans are messing up the planet.
But why does god take the lives of those who have not even had the chance to "mess up the planet"?
Why would god create a life only to vanquish it 3 months later?

tudlytops

mardybumbum wrote: »

Yes, I understand that humans are messing up the planet.
But why does god take the lives of those who have not even had the chance to "mess up the planet"?
Why would god create a life only to vanquish it 3 months later?

Because of the sins of the your father - something along those lines, witch means God is revengeful.

And if your father was a saint you will play for the sins of your grandfather, but pay you will.

cooker3

Soul Winner wrote: »

You're lack of understanding is staggering to say the least. God didn't create this world for us. He created us for this world. And WE messed it up and WE are still messing it up and WE have to live with the consequences.

Do you accept genesis as literally true?
If not then what exactly did we or our ancestors do that justified the last x amount of years of god wraths?

Fanny Cradock

Folks, if you want this thread to stay open then stick by the charter.

mardybumbum

In an attempt to drag this thread back to the topic of theodicy, I shall post this.

He states, that to reconcile the tsunami disaster with a belief in a loving God we must change the way we view god.
We must see him not as the great puppetmaster up in the sky.
Instead, we should see god as being in all things, and who suffers when we suffer.
Surely this version of god is incompatible with the one described in the old testament.
It seems to me that he is trying to hold onto something which he just doesn't believe in anymore.

PDN

mardybumbum wrote: »

He states, that to reconcile the tsunami disaster with a belief in a loving God we must change the way we view god.
We must see him not as the great puppetmaster up in the sky.
Instead, we should see god as being in all things, and who suffers when we suffer.
Surely this version of god is incompatible with the one described in the old testament.
It seems to me that he is trying to hold onto something which he just doesn't believe in anymore.

He is stating what Christians have taught for centuries. But its certainly very apt at Christmas time when Christians tend to think more about the implications of the Incarnation.

Anyone wanting to do some serious reading up on the concept of a suffering God should try out Jurgen Moltmann.

homer911

This might be relevant to the debate - I got this on an email from a friend before Christmas - I have highlighted the bit about Hurricane Katrina. Its an obviously American slant, but still interesting.

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, ‘Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it.It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn’t bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a crèche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I’m getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it’s not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her ‘how God could let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina). Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events... Terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn’t spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem. We said an expert should know what he’s talking about. And we said okay. (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide)

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit.

If not, then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.


My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,

Ben Stein

Soul Winner

cooker3 wrote: »

Do you accept genesis as literally true?
If not then what exactly did we or our ancestors do that justified the last x amount of years of god wraths?

We haven't even begun to see God's wrath yet. According to Jesus it will be a time of troubled unparalleled from the beginning. I'm banking on not being around when it hits. God wiped out everyone over 20 years of age in the Old Testament because for 40 years they judged God and put Him on trial and never acted on His Word. God is all merciful BUT you can piss Him off and leave it one day too long to start acting on His promises. Now if like Malty you don't actually believe in God then why all the falter-all about Him being responsible for the tsunami? He would have to exists in order to do that. I don't believe for one minute that God caused that earthquake in order to punish people for their sins and anyone who says He did is an censored!. We screwed this planet up and we are capable of causing many disasters including earthquakes, we can even manipulate the weather for crying out loud.

antiskeptic

mardybumbum wrote: »

Thats exactly the route I intended to take once original sin was mentioned.
So what about those children?
He didn't give them much of a chance to undo their sins.

The usual response to this is that the children haven't sinned so there is no sin for them to undo. If they had sinned (which necessitate conscious, willful act in the face of a knowledge that the action is wrong) then they'd be as guilty as the adults and there is no issue.

Im sorry, but did you just say God died for us?

I did.

And if God is such a prick then why do you worship him?

If you're prepared to rephrase the question so as to remain civil then civil discussion can commence.

Genghiz Cohen

Soul Winner wrote: »

I don't believe for one minute that God caused that earthquake in order to punish people for their sins and anyone who says He did is an censored!. We screwed this planet up and we are capable of causing many disasters including earthquakes, we can even manipulate the weather for crying out loud.

Even if we could cause earthquakes, God could have stopped it to protect those he supposedly loves.

Soul Winner

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Even if we could cause earthquakes, God could have stopped it to protect those he supposedly loves.

He could have also stopped all wars if that is the case. No, God lets man do his thing until the time comes for Him (God) to intervene. As already pointed out in other posts, God is a God of set-times. He will act when the time is right on His calender. This will be in accordance with His feast days or properly translated set-times. Jesus said that unless God had cut those day short no body would have made it Matt 24:22. We have become so technologically advance that we could destroy this earth hundreds of times over. We have the capability to cure all the evils in the world, but we can't do it because we have a bent for evil in our nature as a species, added to that the problem with the Satanic ruler-ship of this world. It is a supernatural problem and only a supernatural solution can sort it out.

Genghiz Cohen

Soul Winner wrote: »

He could have also stopped all wars if that is the case.

Wars are not classed as Acts of God on insurance forms.

Man does not cause earthquakes or tidal waves.
Your God can do anything, why not protect his people?

Turtwig

Soul Winner wrote: »

.

We have become so technologically advance that we could destroy this earth hundreds of times over.

No we aren't even near such a level.

We have the capability to cure all the evils in the world

Depends what you mean by "evils". Many of them are out of our hands for the time being, but then again you don't seem to regard earthquakes as one of them.

antiskeptic

Soul Winner wrote: »

We haven't even begun to see God's wrath yet.

Yet Paul tells us..

Romans 1 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness..

"Is being" indicates the present continuous.

I don't believe for one minute that God caused that earthquake in order to punish people for their sins and anyone who says He did is an censored!.

I wouldn't be inclined to rule it out. Although God could be expected to be killing a number of birds with one stone. We have the possibilities of

- punishing sinners

- disciplining believers (unto death as per Paul)

- taking believers to be with him without that involving discipline (everyone has to die someday - including believers)

- removing those who won't be saved from the scene (everyone has to die someday, including unbelievers).

Assuming that no one enters death without God's say so, implicit or explicit, what does it matter whether that say so occurs via the naturalistic advance of cancer or the supernaturalistic sending of a Tsunami?

irish_bob

mardybumbum wrote: »

I watched a very interesting documentary on Ch4 yesterday evening entitled "TSUNAMI: Where was God?".

A synopsis of the film can be found here and it has even been uploaded to youtube.

Basically, the presenter David Rosenberg talks to Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and poses the same question; how they reconcile their belief in God(s) with natural disasters that claim thousands of lives.

I would be interested in hearing how the religious on boards can still believe in a god when so many innocent people lose their lives to earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, e.t.c.

The only way in which I have been able to explain it is that if there is a god, it wants to punish innocent people, or it doesnt care about them.

Either way, I dont care very much for it.

my interpretation of god ( if he indeed exists ) from listening to believers over the years is that he is to credit for absolutley everything from winning an oscar , passing your driving test , getting a job promotion or surviving cancer but has nothing to do with it if the opposite happens in all the scenarios i have outlined above

Soul Winner

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Wars are not classed as Acts of God on insurance forms.

Well He caused a few wars in Old Testament times. He raised up Gideon in the time of the Judges to defeat the Midianites, He was with David in his battles and commanded that the Israelites enter the land that He promised them in order to conquer it and posses it.

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Man does not cause earthquakes or tidal waves.

How do you know?

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Your God can do anything, why not protect his people?

He does protect His people. How do you know if many of these previously impoverished people were not better off dead and with Him in eternity or not? From God's point of view it is better to enter eternal life than to prosper down here. Paul describes death in one of his epistles as a starting point, not an end. If the people who were killed in the 2004 tsunami were really his people (and I don't doubt that they were) then they are with Him now forever. If they weren't then why should He protect them? God will be what He promises to His people including their protector but they must be trusting Him on it. How are we to know how many were doing this at that time? You can't, only God and they know that. The problem with people like you is that you don't actually believe that God exists and you use tragedies like this to put down the faith of people who do. You can't get lower than that IMO. If God exists then He is sovereign and can take life as much as He gives it and He hates people who put Him trial about it. God is a loving God but He will not allow ******* who don't trust in Him to judge him on anything. You either get right with Him or you burn, simple as. In any case I don't believe that God caused that tsunami, I believe it was a result of the many years of abuse that we as a species have put this planet through which caused it.

cooker3

Soul Winner wrote: »

We haven't even begun to see God's wrath yet. According to Jesus it will be a time of troubled unparalleled from the beginning. I'm banking on not being around when it hits. God wiped out everyone over 20 years of age in the Old Testament because for 40 years they judged God and put Him on trial and never acted on His Word. God is all merciful BUT you can piss Him off and leave it one day too long to start acting on His promises. Now if like Malty you don't actually believe in God then why all the falter-all about Him being responsible for the tsunami? He would have to exists in order to do that. I don't believe for one minute that God caused that earthquake in order to punish people for their sins and anyone who says He did is an censored!. We screwed this planet up and we are capable of causing many disasters including earthquakes, we can even manipulate the weather for crying out loud.

I am going back to fundamental idea. We are born sinners, right? Why?
It's always been my understanding of Christianity that it's because of Eve eating the apple which I assume to be the idea of disobeying god (and not the actual eating of the apple) which led to this.
But if you don't think the Adam and Eve story happened literally. Why are we all born sinners?

antiskeptic

cooker3 wrote: »

But if you don't think the Adam and Eve story happened literally. Why are we all born sinners?

Well, it puts us in the position of sliding down the slippery slope to Hell. And to counter that option (it's an option for us because we are not forced to take it) God puts in place a mechanism whereby we can be saved from sliding off the edge of this slope. That mechanism forms the other option.

Heaven or Hell. We effectively decide.

The advantage of this way of doing things is that those who are saved cannot take any credit for saving themselves - anymore than a trout can take credit for it being landed by a fisherman. And because God's way of salvation involved great sacrifice on the part of God, the way is open to man to love God wholeheartedly. And for man to take up his correct hierarchial position before God: under God, but a son.

Other possible systems inevitably involve man placed on a par with God in some way or other. And that just isn't the order of things.

Soul Winner

antiskeptic wrote: »

"Is being" indicates the present continuous.

The tribulation the Great Tribulation is God's wrath which will be poured out on this earth. The wrath that Paul refers to is 'Orgé' which means a slow boil, not the 'Thumos' or explosive wrath that is to come. The reference to it being revealed from heaven has to do with the constellations and the story they have to tell. I recommend that you read E.W. Bullinger's 'Witness in the Stars' and Joseph A Seis' 'Gospel in the Stars'. But if you check here it will give you a good run down on the true meaning of the constellations and what they mean. Revealed from heaven means that God wrote the story of Christ in the stars, starting with Virgo the Virgin and ending with Leo the conquering Lion and coming King. It is revealed from heaven, one only need look up to see it.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I wouldn't be inclined to rule it out. Although God could be expected to be killing a number of birds with one stone. We have the possibilities of

- punishing sinners

- disciplining believers (unto death as per Paul)

- taking believers to be with him without that involving discipline (everyone has to die someday - including believers)

- removing those who won't be saved from the scene (everyone has to die someday, including unbelievers).

Assuming that no one enters death without God's say so, implicit or explicit, what does it matter whether that say so occurs via the naturalistic advance of cancer or the supernaturalistic sending of a Tsunami?

I don't rule it out either but I refuse to believe that the purpose of the 2004 tsunami was simply to kill thousands of already impoverished people. There are many more worthy recipients of death in this world than that and a lot of them are at the higher echelons of society, not struggling daily to make a living in poverty. Blessed are the poor. I agree that nobody dies unless God allows it but that does not mean that it was His will for them to die at that time. Cain killed Able and God allowed that to happen but do you think that it was God's will for it to happen? Satan wrecked Job's life and God allowed that to happen but it wasn't His will or desire that it should happen. If God exists to cause tsunamis then Satan also exists and he isn't just a passive onlooker in this world affairs. He is active and powerful and will use any events in mankind's history to break people's faith in God, including inducing earthquakes which kill thousands of people. That God allows it to happen is His prerogative and His promise is that He will enter in to work His good to them which are the called according to His purposes. God would rather have us die in faith than live in prosperity.

Soul Winner

cooker3 wrote: »

I am going back to fundamental idea. We are born sinners, right? Why?
It's always been my understanding of Christianity that it's because of Eve eating the apple which I assume to be the idea of disobeying god (and not the actual eating of the apple) which led to this.
But if you don't think the Adam and Eve story happened literally. Why are we all born sinners?

Who says we don't believe that the Adam and Eve story happened literally? And it wasn't an apple. The Bible doesn't say what type of fruit it was. And the talking snake as some would have us believe wasn't a talking snake at all, it was a serpent, and its curse was to crawl on its belly, and that curse came after the eating of the fruit hence after the temptation, which means that when it tempted Eve it wasn't in the form of a crawling creature. The Bible just describes it as the most subtle of all the creatures but it was under the control of Satan when it tempted Eve. We have to remember that at the time of temptation they were in an un-falled state. In that state they had dominion over all the earth including the animals. I believe that in this un-fallen state that they could literally communicate with them. Not necessarily in a speaking kind of communication. That is all speculative of course but it cannot be ruled out either. If the story is not true and only metaphor then I'm with Dawkins, Christ died an excruciatingly painful and shameful death because of a symbolic man committing a symbolic sin which is quite rightly barking mad.

antiskeptic

Soul Winner wrote: »

The tribulation the Great Tribulation is God's wrath which will be poured out on this earth. The wrath that Paul refers to is 'Orgé' which means a slow boil, not the 'Thumos' or explosive wrath that is to come. The reference to it being revealed from heaven has to do with the constellations and the story they have to tell. I recommend that you read E.W. Bullinger's 'Witness in the Stars' and Joseph A Seis' 'Gospel in the Stars'. But if you check here it will give you a good run down on the true meaning of the constellations and what they mean. Revealed from heaven means that God wrote the story of Christ in the stars, starting with Virgo the Virgin and ending with Leo the conquering Lion and coming King. It is revealed from heaven, one only need look up to see it.

From whence the idea that the wrath in Romans means a slow boil? And from whence the idea that a Tsunami would be anything other than a slow boil wrath given the wrath to come (where folk beg the mountains to fall down on them).

In Romans 1, Paul ties in the wrath of God with it's finding expression in handing men over to their sin - resulting in headlong falling into depravity - nothing is mentioned about the physical heavens revealing wrath. What possible wrath is revealed to man by the constellations anyway?

I don't rule it out either but I refuse to believe that the purpose of the 2004 tsunami was simply to kill thousands of already impoverished people.

What has already impoverished to do with sinfulness. Or God's wrath being expressed against sinners if that's what he decided to do via Tsunami?

There are many more worthy recipients of death in this world than that and a lot of them are at the higher echelons of society, not struggling daily to make a living in poverty.

Isn't the case that everyone is worthy of death? That all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. On what basis do you judge the one more worthy of death than the other. Besides, death is a blessing to a Christian - no?

Blessed are the poor.

..in spirit. Not material wealth.

I agree that nobody dies unless God allows it but that does not mean that it was His will for them to die at that time. Cain killed Able and God allowed that to happen but do you think that it was God's will for it to happen? Satan wrecked Job's life and God allowed that to happen but it wasn't His will or desire that it should happen.

And God sent a flood which wiped out man, woman and child. Rich and poor. Which leads me to suppose that he wouldn't necessarily refrain from utilising a similar, if smaller, event for his purposes.

If God exists to cause tsunamis then Satan also exists and he isn't just a passive onlooker in this world affairs. He is active and powerful and will use any events in mankind's history to break people's faith in God, including inducing earthquakes which kill thousands of people. That God allows it to happen is His prerogative and His promise is that He will enter in to work His good to them which are the called according to His purposes. God would rather have us die in faith than live in prosperity.

Granted. As you say, you wouldn't rule it out.

Soul Winner

antiskeptic wrote: »

From whence the idea that the wrath in Romans means a slow boil? And from whence the idea that a Tsunami would be anything other than a slow boil wrath given the wrath to come (where folk beg the mountains to fall down on them).

Contrast between Thumos and Orge from Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

"(1) Thumos, "wrath" (not translated "anger"), is to be distinguished from orge, in this respect, that thumos indicates a more agitated condition of the feelings, an outburst of wrath from inward indignation, while orge suggests a more settled or abiding condition of mind, frequently with a view to taking revenge. Orge is less sudden in its rise than thumos, but more lasting in its nature. Thumos expresses more the inward feeling, orge the more active emotion. Thumos may issue in revenge, though it does not necessarily include it. It is characteristic that it quickly blazes up and quickly subsides, though that is not necessarily implied in each case."

antiskeptic wrote: »

In Romans 1, Paul ties in the wrath of God with it's finding expression in handing men over to their sin - resulting in headlong falling into depravity - nothing is mentioned about the physical heavens revealing wrath. What possible wrath is revealed to man by the constellations anyway?

Read the link I gave you and you'll see it, also those two books I mentioned. God's wrath is revealed in the constelation names and the names of the stars that they contain.

antiskeptic wrote: »

What has already impoverished to do with sinfulness. Or God's wrath being expressed against sinners if that's what he decided to do via Tsunami?

Nothing, I just don't believe that God deliberately killed those people out of wrath. I believe He has bigger fish to fry than those poor souls. His wrath is still future tense. But that is not to say that I don't think that He is not capable now of doing this sort of thing. He is, I just don't buy the claptrap that it actually was His wrath on these people's sin. I could be wrong though but I'm entitled to my opinion.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't the case that everyone is worthy of death? That all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. On what basis do you judge the one more worthy of death than the other. Besides, death is a blessing to a Christian - no?

Well I could ask the same question. Why do you see these people as being more worthy of death than others? Why single out these folks?

antiskeptic wrote: »

..in spirit. Not material wealth.

Luke 6:20 omits in spirit rendering it poor in general. Maybe its' both?

antiskeptic wrote: »

And God sent a flood which wiped out man, woman and child. Rich and poor. Which leads me to suppose that he wouldn't necessarily refrain from utilising a similar, if smaller, event for his purposes.

Well yes, but that does not mean that He actually did in this case.

cooker3

Soul Winner wrote: »

Who says we don't believe that the Adam and Eve story happened literally? .

I didn't say you didn't but there are Christians that don't believe in it literally. I always wondered how they can believe we are all born sinners . What's the justification

antiskeptic wrote: »

Well, it puts us in the position of sliding down the slippery slope to Hell. And to counter that option (it's an option for us because we are not forced to take it) God puts in place a mechanism whereby we can be saved from sliding off the edge of this slope. That mechanism forms the other option.

Heaven or Hell. We effectively decide.

The advantage of this way of doing things is that those who are saved cannot take any credit for saving themselves - anymore than a trout can take credit for it being landed by a fisherman. And because God's way of salvation involved great sacrifice on the part of God, the way is open to man to love God wholeheartedly. And for man to take up his correct hierarchial position before God: under God, but a son.

Other possible systems inevitably involve man placed on a par with God in some way or other. And that just isn't the order of things.

This doesn't help me understand why we are born sinners.
You seem to be suggesting that without any other intervention that once we are born then we are going to hell.
Why would god design us that way?

Seems to me that designing us as moral and or perfect would be a much more desirable for everyone.

If he had then he/jesus wouldn't have had to make such a painful sacrifice and it also would have ensured everyone alive before his time and after who didn't get exposed to the message would have avoided hell.