security man with baton

KC JONES

I recently saw a security man with what appeared to be a baton. He had it on his belt, looked like an extendable.

I think he was collecting cash from banks. Just wondered what is the law there, can security men carry weapons?

I thought security men had no more power than ordinary folk, who, to my knowledge, cannot legally carry weapons. It is just a curiousity on my part. Am I wrong?

Maximilian

I think its fine as long as it's not a bladed weapon and for defense.

Relevant legislation is the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990.

I think machetes and swords were specifically added to the list this year.

Podman

Is that the same for everyone?

KC JONES

Podman wrote: »

Is that the same for everyone?

+1 I thought security men had no more rights than ordinary folk

Maximilian

They don't have any more rights. If its the case that you're wondering why you can't go around with a baton drawn, glaring at people:

"11.—Where a person, while committing or appearing to be about to commit an offence, or in the course of a dispute or fight, produces in a manner likely unlawfully to intimidate another person any article capable of inflicting serious injury, he shall be guilty of an offence"

Read the Act if you're interested. It's not very long.

2qk4u

I was in the security industry for over 10 years and carried a teliscopic batton after my first syringe attack. I was very aware that I was breaking the law but was willing to take the risk knowing that it may save my life some day. I had many instences where it was used in full view of Gardai and in some cases to help Gardai. I was never prosicuted.

Whitewater-AGS

The short answer is no security should not be carrying a baton

Maximilian

2qk4u wrote: »

I was in the security industry for over 10 years and carried a teliscopic batton after my first syringe attack. I was very aware that I was breaking the law but was willing to take the risk knowing that it may save my life some day. I had many instences where it was used in full view of Gardai and in some cases to help Gardai. I was never prosicuted.

My reading of the Act is that it's not illegal to have one for defense. It's a different matter if you're waving it around or acting in a threatening manner. If that weren't the case and simply having possession of any weapon in any circumstance was an offence, then surely that section I quoted above wouldn't be necessary.

KC JONES

Maximilian wrote: »

My reading of the Act is that it's not illegal to have one for defense. It's a different matter if you're waving it around or acting in a threatening manner. If that weren't the case and simply having possession of any weapon in any circumstance was an offence, then surely that section I quoted above wouldn't be necessary.

But a non security person cannot have one for defense can they?

Maximilian

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

The short answer is no security should not be carrying a baton

Can you expand on that? I'd be interested to hear why.

KC JONES

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

The short answer is no security should not be carrying a baton

I would have thought that

mikemac

They don't even need a baton.
Many carry torches and a blow from one of these could knock you out.

Of course they can then claim a torch isn't a weapon, which to be fair it isn't. But having a security guard swing a heavy torch at you can be much the same as having to dodge a baton

Maximilian

KC JONES wrote: »

But a non security person cannot have one for defense can they?

It seems to me they could, provided they weren't do anything wrong. I haven't trawled through the S.I.'s but batons don't appear to be proscribed per se under the Act.

Podman

"11.—Where a person, while committing or appearing to be about to commit an offence, or in the course of a dispute or fight, produces in a manner likely unlawfully to intimidate another person any article capable of inflicting serious injury, he shall be guilty of an offence"

..so, any person can carry self-defense items such as a telescopic baton as long as they don't wield them, and only produce them if attacked..?

(By "carry", I don't mean in the hand, I mean "about the person", pocket or whatever)

KC JONES

mikemac wrote: »

Of course they can then claim a torch isn't a weapon, which to be fair it isn't.

I am not sure that would work. Isn't there something about anything used as a weapon is a weapon?

Maximilian

Podman wrote: »

..so, any person can carry self-defense items such as a telescopic baton as long as they don't wield them, and only produce them if attacked..?

(By "carry", I don't mean in the hand, I mean "about the person", pocket or whatever)

Yeah that's what I think. I'm open to correction of course - Whitewater suggested otherwise but I'd love to know why.

Shield

@danash

For best results, don't comment on moderator actions on thread. Take it to Feedback, or PM the moderator with your views. Goading a moderator is probably the worst thing you can do.

Trojan911

KC JONES wrote: »

I recently saw a security man with what appeared to be a baton. He had it on his belt, looked like an extendable.

I am aware that you cannot reply, however,

What you possibly saw was a torch in a nylon black holster. I've seen a couple of these on security officers belts. They do appear to be Asp's but they are just torches.

Security staff are not allowed to carry batons/Asp's etc as they are deemed offensive weapons.

seamus

Maximilian wrote: »

Yeah that's what I think. I'm open to correction of course - Whitewater suggested otherwise but I'd love to know why.

I'm pretty sure you're right.

In these kinds of cases, I always refer back to the case a couple of years ago where a man was convicted of carrying an offensive weapon for arriving at his neighbour's door with a baseball bat. Link to a similar case.

A baseball bat (like a telescopic baton) is only an offensive weapon if used in a threatening manner (or in the course of committing an offence), but it's otherwise OK to walk down the road carrying one so long as a Garda is satisfied that you don't intend to use it in a threatening manner (or to commit a crime). In the case of a security guard, that would be a reasonable assumption. However, a Joe Soap walking down the road with one of these hanging off his belt probably wouldn't get the benefit of the doubt.

Though as pointed out, some items can be specifically listed as offensive weapons.

TheNog

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

The short answer is no security should not be carrying a baton

Maximilian wrote: »

Can you expand on that? I'd be interested to hear why.

I think it would be advisable at the very least for any security personel not to carry a baton or any type of instrument that can/could be determined a weapon purely because of what can happen if that weapon is used.

I think thats what WGAS is saying.

peteg

did a private security training day 2 years ago, we were told a security person had no more rights than any other joe soap. you can not carry a baton.if a security person is under threat he/she can not pick up a stick to protect themselves but they can use their long handled torch as this is part of their uniform.

Joey the lips

Interesing discussion. My understanding is no weapons can be carried by anyone joe public that is not trained to use them, But having done a self defense course( I am no bruce lee just worked for the youthservice) I learned many ways to carry weapons so as to be legal but not threatening.

For example. A tennis racket on the back seat of your car in its case. A mini tin of deo in a womens hand bag. A baseball bat and ball in the boot of your car. A tyre Iron. Golf balls. Golf club.

Shopping? Turnip in a bag. This will knock most out. Tin of beans. Anyone see crocadile dundee :rolleyes:

As for bouncers. The best ability is the ability to restrain. For example. Grab a person by both hands and if they kick out push them over very simple. Grab a person by the head and pull there nose and they automatically put there hands up. leaving you only to worry about there feet. If they kick push them over.

If two people attack you use the lightest usually the women( sorry girls usually and boyfriend girlfriend attack bouncers) to shild you from the heavier one.



A lot of times weapons are not needed. But always note: The worst thing that can happen to anyone is have your weapon of choice used against you. So dont carry heavy turnips.;)

2qk4u

To follow on from my earlier post, I was allways told by Gardai that it was illegal to carry my batton as it is an offensive weapon. All of the Garda that I dealt with on a daily basis knew I had it and after assisting a Garda with an arrest using the batton he realised mine was not that good and he gave me a new Garda issue baton.
My 10 years experience tells me that it is an offence to carry a baton.

BigDuffman

In my experience..there are enough people out there willing to put security staff (in particular) through the grinder for defending themself. You can get in enough trouble for a simple arm bar. So carrying something that can be deemed as a weapon (how ever grey the area) can cause a lot of trouble.

The best way around all of this is if in your line of work you feel the need to carry a weapon to defend yourself get a mag-lite. An aluminium D cell maglite packs as much of a hit as a telescopic can.

OP have a look at the feedback / contact us section if you need to raise an issue regarding unfair modding.

2qk4u

BigDuffman wrote: »

In my experience..there are enough people out there willing to put security staff (in particular) through the grinder for defending themself. You can get in enough trouble for a simple arm bar. So carrying something that can be deemed as a weapon (how ever grey the area) can cause a lot of trouble.

The best way around all of this is if in your line of work you feel the need to carry a weapon to defend yourself get a mag-lite. An aluminium D cell maglite packs as much of a hit as a telescopic can.

OP have a look at the feedback / contact us section if you need to raise an issue regarding unfair modding.

That only works in some circunstances, there are different types of guarding, many do not require a tourch.

Trojan911

2qk4u wrote: »

To follow on from my earlier post, I was allways told by Gardai that it was illegal to carry my batton as it is an offensive weapon. All of the Garda that I dealt with on a daily basis knew I had it and after assisting a Garda with an arrest using the batton he realised mine was not that good and he gave me a new Garda issue baton.
My 10 years experience tells me that it is an offence to carry a baton.

That may be the norm where you work/live, but totally unacceptable in the eyes of the law.

If this is true that you are saying a serving member of AGS issued you, a civilian, with a Garda issue baton then he has also left himself open to disciplinary procedings.

Your "10 years experience" doesn't appear to reflect a professional outlook as you admit to breaking the law here...

seamus

2qk4u wrote: »

That only works in some circunstances, there are different types of guarding, many do not require a tourch.

I'm pretty sure it would be hard to prove that any particular type of security person doesn't ever need a torch. A bouncer would need a torch for looking around a dark nightclub. In winter especially, a van security person will operate partially during darkness and so may need one.

In fact, I'm struggling to come up with any type of security person that I could confidently say, "You will never need a torch".

BigDuffman

2qk4u wrote: »

That only works in some circumstances, there are different types of guarding, many do not require a tourch.

Sorry didn't make my point too clear in the post. Anyone from bouncers to bankers can carry a torch on their person. Depending on the type of work your involved in the size of your torch is relevant to the environment. Whereas when working at concerts and festivals or a darkened environment like a club or the Dart Station...a 4 Cell Maglite was acceptable to be carrying around the place.

Where as if your involved in close protection or store detective work it may be considered odd to carry a huge maglite.

I find a kubaton (as it is essentially a keyring ) particularly discreet and effective and completely legal AKAIK!

But anything in a legal situation that would make an individual of sensitive disposition whince or consider odd (ie. battons, bats etc) should be avoided. If it could be found unusual to be in your possession it may be considered by some to be premeditated carrying of a "weapon" as opposed to you using something that came to hand to defend yourself.

I'm not a lawyer but that has been my experience.

Reloc8

Just by way of comment on the applicable legislation (Firearms & Offensive Weapons Acts). The reference to the Statutory Instruments made thereunder as containing a list of proscribed weapons is inaccurate if taken to mean 'these are specifically prohibited and do not refer to batons ergo batons are not prohibited).

In fact, if you read the main SI (that's number 66 of 1991 - its not very long so ooopslolhahah) you'll see that what it says is 'it is hereby directed that Section 12 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 shall apply to the following descrpitions of weapons' and it goes on to describe lots of nasty stuff.

Now, what does Section 12 say, I hear you ask ? Well, Section 12 of the 1990 Act makes it an offence to manufacture, import, sale, hire or loan a weapon. It does not make it an offence to own one or bring it into a public place.

I've noticed this mistake a few times on the forum by the same person I think (an apparent belief that the items listed in the SI are specifically prohibited to own).

So why can't I have an offensive weapon ? Well...simply put...you can...but if you have it with you in a public place, that's an offence.'

For knives or other blades or sharply pointed items - Section 9(1) applies. For flick knives (which is a knife which opens by centrifugal force or other device and locks open) or articles made or adapted to cause injury Section 9(4) applies.

Now...batons...Section 9(5) says "Where a person has with him in any public place any article intended by him unlawfully to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate any person either in a particular eventuality or otherwise, he shall be guilty of an offence."

So...again, you can have one at home. In a public place it is an offence if you have it with intention to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate another person unlawfully.

Is it lawful to carry if intended to use only for 'self-defence'.

It could be...but the onus is on you to establish to a judge/jury (for simple possession it will be a district judge most likely) that you had it with a lawful intent. Depending on what the thing was this could be challenging. I can say with certainty that a district judge will not look favourably on the notion of carrying a weapon 'just in case'. Of course this applies to anything you carry with intent, including a torch...but its a heck of a lot easier to defend a torch in court.

Anyway, are privately retained security staff any different to the rest of us ? Nope not at all...same rules apply. It will however be easier especially these days for e.g. a guard escorting a cash van to avoid prosecution/successfully defend a charge in respect of a baton of some kind than for you or I. A bouncer who uses a similar yoke...emmm...that's gonna depend a lot on whether he gets charged (which he may not do depending on the circumstances). Judges would not be generally in favour of encouraging weapons being introduced into intoxicated shemozzles.

Torches...it would in my opinion (which you can take it is reasonably informed) be unlikely for an average punter to be prosecuted for carrying a torch (which is nice as they can be quite useful in self-defence as noted above) and practically certain that they would not be convicted under the Firearms & Offensive Weapon Legislation.

If the torch was in fact used as a weapon it would be necessary to consider whether it was an article capable of inflicting serious injury (See s. 11 of the 1990 Act). Of course, the charges of assault/assault causing harm/assault causing serious harm would clearly be available. In a prosecution for those offences the usual rules & uncertainties of the defence of self-defence would apply.

Maximilian

Right, Enough. I'm closing the thread. You're more interested in raising pitchforks at this stage.

When I said "Read the Act if you're interested. It's not very long" I was merely suggesting that if the subject was interesting, he should read the rather short piece of legislation. Plain English, misinterpreted as something else.

Maximilian

A PM from from someone earlier made me realise that this interesting discussion shouldn't be stifled by a few idiots.

I've reopened the thread. All back seat modding threads are deleted and all users concerned infracted. Anyone who sent me an abusive pm regarding the matter is banned permanently.

The next person to utter a word on the matter is banned also. Golly, how about that.

Whitewater-AGS

Maximilian wrote: »

Can you expand on that? I'd be interested to hear why.

Basically anyone carrying a baton is committing an offence under section 9 of the Firearms and offensive weapons act and unlike say a baseball bat their is no defense for carry a baton of any kind as its only purpose/design is to be used as a strike weapon.

And depending on the circumstances almost anything can be seen as an offensive weapon just depends when and how your found with it take the baseball bat for example walking down the road at six in the evening it could be said your coming/going to a park ect ect walking down the road at 3am with a baseball is harder to justify

Victor

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Basically anyone carrying a baton is committing an offence under section 9 of the Firearms and offensive weapons act and unlike say a baseball bat their is no defense for carry a baton of any kind as its only purpose/design is to be used as a strike weapon.

**cough** Scoundrels **cough**

Podman

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Basically anyone carrying a baton is committing an offence under section 9 of the Firearms and offensive weapons act and unlike say a baseball bat their is no defense for carry a baton of any kind as its only purpose/design is to be used as a strike weapon.

wiki- baton

A truncheon or baton (also called a cosh, Paddywacker, billystick, billy club, nightstick, sap, blackjack, stick) is essentially a stick of less than arm's length, usually made of wood, plastic, or metal, and carried by law-enforcement, corrections, security, and (less often) military personnel for less lethal self-defense, as well as control and to disperse combative and non-compliant subjects. A truncheon may be used to strike, jab, block, and aid in the application of armlocks. Truncheons are used to a lesser extent by non-officials because of their easy concealment, and are outlawed in many jurisdictions. They are also frequently used to rescue people who are trapped—for instance, in cars or buildings that are on fire, by smashing windows and doors.

according to this there are many uses for a baton, besides directly blocking an attack, there is fighting off a mugger for example. Is there a provision in the law for a defensive tool?

(it's interesting to see "paddy whacker" there)

by Baton, we are talking about this...


not this ...

Kosseegan

Presumably a securtity person is entitled to carry a baton when he is on private property. The restrictions only apply in a public place. He is entitled to use the baton in a private place subject to the use of proportionality in self defence. There should be no difficulty therefore in his having the baton on him in a public place when he is coming or going from his place of employment. The trouble with the Offensive Weapons Act is that the Garda often do not even ask the person carrying the alleged weapon what the justification is. They just charge people and the person has to go to court to explain himself. A walking stick or umbrella can be used as a weapon. Is every pensioner going for a walk going to be asked to justify using their walking stick?
The reality is that the more an object is being carried in the context of its only obvious use is as a weapon there is a corresponding risk of a charge. The facts of every situation are unique and only the courts can decide whther the carrying of any particular object at a given time is lawful or not.

Whitewater-AGS

Kosseegan wrote: »

Presumably a securtity person is entitled to carry a baton when he is on private property. The restrictions only apply in a public place. He is entitled to use the baton in a private place subject to the use of proportionality in self defence. There should be no difficulty therefore in his having the baton on him in a public place when he is coming or going from his place of employment. The trouble with the Offensive Weapons Act is that the Garda often do not even ask the person carrying the alleged weapon what the justification is. They just charge people and the person has to go to court to explain himself. A walking stick or umbrella can be used as a weapon. Is every pensioner going for a walk going to be asked to justify using their walking stick?
The reality is that the more an object is being carried in the context of its only obvious use is as a weapon there is a corresponding risk of a charge. The facts of every situation are unique and only the courts can decide whther the carrying of any particular object at a given time is lawful or not.

Well no their is a very big problem with a security guard carrying a baton either going to or from work cause its a public place and in a public place nobody should be carrying one.

Your correct in saying every situation is unique however if your carrying something which has no other use than to be a weapon(baton) well then you will be prosecuted if stopped by a member of An Garda Siochana and rightly so.

Kosseegan

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Well no their is a very big problem with a security guard carrying a baton either going to or from work cause its a public place and in a public place nobody should be carrying one.

Your correct in saying every situation is unique however if your carrying something which has no other use than to be a weapon(baton) well then you will be prosecuted if stopped by a member of An Garda Siochana and rightly so.

With all due respect, that is just nonsense. Many people have work equipment which they have to carry to and from their work. A carpenter for example will have hammers, saws and chisels. Are you saying that a carpenter going to and from work is committing an offence? If a security man has a baton in has hand several hours after finishing work, that is one thing. If he is walking home directly from work, it is another. The offence is carrying a weapon without lawful excuse, not carrying a weapon simpliciter. No wonder the guards get a bad name forcing honest working people to go to court to explain themselves when a bit of common sense would avoid a lot of hassle.

Whitewater-AGS

Kosseegan wrote: »

With all due respect, that is just nonsense. Many people have work equipment which they have to carry to and from their work. A carpenter for example will have hammers, saws and chisels. Are you saying that a carpenter going to and from work is committing an offence? If a security man has a baton in has hand several hours after finishing work, that is one thing. If he is walking home directly from work, it is another. The offence is carrying a weapon without lawful excuse, not carrying a weapon simpliciter. No wonder the guards get a bad name forcing honest working people to go to court to explain themselves when a bit of common sense would avoid a lot of hassle.

Now you read into it as you will but I never said everyone carrying what could be a weapon was getting arrested and charged/summons infact I said every situation is different now a carpenter carry a stanley knife/chisel too or from a job aint going to be arrested but the same carpenter being found with the same implements at twelve at night might just find himself arrested dependent on the circumstances, and anyone on this forum is aware the law is rearly black and white and policing certainly aint and generally a common sense approach is taken to this piece of legislation.

And to address the op once again yes its an offence for a security guard to carry a baton while working in a public palce and coming or going from work.

Maximilian

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Now you read into it as you will but I never said everyone carrying what could be a weapon was getting arrested and charged/summons infact I said every situation is different now a carpenter carry a stanley knife/chisel too or from a job aint going to be arrested but the same carpenter being found with the same implements at twelve at night might just find himself arrested dependent on the circumstances, and anyone on this forum is aware the law is rearly black and white and policing certainly aint and generally a common sense approach is taken to this piece of legislation.

And to address the op once again yes its an offence for a security guard to carry a baton while working in a public palce and coming or going from work.

Well I think carpenters' tools etc are completely different to something like a baton, which really has only one use 99% of the time - as a weapon.

Whitewater you say carrying a baton is an offense - what's the basis for that? It doesn't seem to be proscribed by the Offensive Weapons Act per se. Is there some other piece of legislation covering this?

Whitewater-AGS

Maximilian wrote: »

Well I think carpenters' tools etc are completely different to something like a baton, which really has only one use 99% of the time - as a weapon.

Whitewater you say carrying a baton is an offense - what's the basis for that? It doesn't seem to be proscribed by the Offensive Weapons Act per se. Is there some other piece of legislation covering this?

I agree copmpletely that carpenters tolls are a different story I was using them to highlight how a person could be committing an offence depending on when, where and how they are caught. As for the baton it would be covered under section 9(4)(b) of the act, where as finding someone with a hammer tucked inside their jactet could be prosecuted under 9(5) of the same act.

Jo King

A security guard might well need a baton as a defensive weapon as part of their job. If I was in a warehouse on my own and there was a constant threat of individuals attempting to overpower me and steal goods I would have every right to thrreaten them with a baton in self defence. The baton would be as much part of the tools of my trade as my uniform and as much part of the tools of my trade as a a drummer's drumstick.

Whitewater-AGS

Jo King wrote: »

A security guard might well need a baton as a defensive weapon as part of their job. If I was in a warehouse on my own and there was a constant threat of individuals attempting to overpower me and steal goods I would have every right to thrreaten them with a baton in self defence. The baton would be as much part of the tools of my trade as my uniform and as much part of the tools of my trade as a a drummer's drumstick.

You may well think so, but as the law currently stands they actually could be committing an offence under section 11 of the act, or I could just be reading it wrong

Maximilian

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

I agree copmpletely that carpenters tolls are a different story I was using them to highlight how a person could be committing an offence depending on when, where and how they are caught. As for the baton it would be covered under section 9(4)(b) of the act, where as finding someone with a hammer tucked inside their jactet could be prosecuted under 9(5) of the same act.

Actually, just found that telescopic batons are specifically prohibited under S.2(k) of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990 (Offensive Weapons) Order, 1991 (along with a load of other weapons). Strangely though, it seems just to apply to the sale etc. of such items

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/si/0066.html

Whitewater-AGS

Maximilian wrote: »

Actually, just found that telescopic batons are specifically prohibited under S.2(k) of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990 (Offensive Weapons) Order, 1991 (along with a load of other weapons).

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/si/0066.html

Ah good man not familiar with S.I

Maximilian

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

You may well think so, but as the law currently stands they actually could be committing an offence under section 11 of the act, or I could just be reading it wrong

The Act does say that it's not illegal to possess weapons if you have "reasonable excuse". I wonder would that fly with a judge in the case of a security guard possessing one for self-defense.

Whitewater-AGS

Doubt it be like a postman carry o/c to stop dogs attacking him or someone with a threat on their life carrying a knife it wouldn't stand in court imho

Reloc8

Maximilian wrote: »

Actually, just found that telescopic batons are specifically prohibited under S.2(k) of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990 (Offensive Weapons) Order, 1991 (along with a load of other weapons). Strangely though, it seems just to apply to the sale etc. of such items

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/si/0066.html

Sorry if I said they wern't in there - they are indeed buit yep the effect of the SI is simply to apply S. 12 to the weapons prohibited (sale/hire/importation/loan etc).

The battons themselves come under S. 9 or S. 11 if actually produced.

Whitewater-AGS

You see people we can have a discussion and some of us actually learn from it without having to be sent to the bold corner:D

Good thread

keith101

Sorry for going off topic, but is it legal for a security guard to carry handcuffs? also if a perpertrator is caught red handed in the act would it be legal for a security guard to detain them by way of handcuffs untill the Gardai arrive, would this be classed as a citizens arrest? or is it unlawful detention?

nesf

Maximilian wrote: »

Actually, just found that telescopic batons are specifically prohibited under S.2(k) of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990 (Offensive Weapons) Order, 1991 (along with a load of other weapons). Strangely though, it seems just to apply to the sale etc. of such items

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/si/0066.html

There are quite a few exotic weapons in that list.

So, it appears to an untrained eye that while it's illegal to sell or import weapons on that list, making one for personal use wouldn't be illegal?

Maximilian

nesf wrote: »

There are quite a few exotic weapons in that list.

So, it appears to an untrained eye that while it's illegal to sell or import weapons on that list, making one for personal use wouldn't be illegal?

Arguably yeah but from what Whitewater says (and I'm guessing he's a Garda and knows what he's talking about?) carrying it out of your home even would land you in trouble.

I think if I were a security guard, I'd carry a big heavy torch.