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Is Secularism the best path for Christianity?
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So you are saying that God hasn't done anything in the last 2000 years, that it has been all man, even though you believe that everything before 2000 years ago was also man as well.
Like I said, sophistry.
Anything is confusing to those who don't understand it. We've had plenty of threads in here about Bible contradictions before. They generally end up with atheists claiming that their own interpretation of a Scripture is the correct one (even though they have zero knowledge of the subject) when a perfectly reasonable interpretation exists where there is no contradiction implied.
I suggest you sit down, think a bit more clearly, and decide what it is you want to discuss.
If you want to discuss secularism, and whether it is good for Christianity or not, then this is the thread.
If you want to ask questions about the Bible then feel free to start a new thread.
If you want to go on a rant about the Roman Catholic Church (the branch that held mass in Latin until recently - even though other churches have worshipped in the vernacular since the days of the apostles) then After Hours will probably accommodate you.
I will take it in reverse order:
I am not ranting about the RC Church but it is the Church I know best. And as we live in Ireland it is most relivent to this discussion.
As the Bible is the book of record for Christianity then it is relivent is any discussion on the Churches influence on a cecular society.
Is it not healthy to include all sectors of Irish society in a discussion on a Secular Ireland and the effect of such a society on those that have a Religion and those that don't?
Just because somebody has an opinion that differs from yours does not mean they have "zero knowledge" this is an asumption on your part and quite an ignorant one at that. I respect your views. I don't agree with many but I accept you are quite well read and knowledgable.
And to the first point you made on sophisty in my point of view:
There is from my point of view probably no God. There is no evidence of his exsitance. There are stories in the bible on the many miracles and other events contributed to him. but nothing in the last 2000 years. All I am saying is that our morals are self made. In the past the morals were atributed to God in order for a minority to hold sway over a majoraty using the fear of eternal damnation.0 -
In a secular society I think any organisation can use private funds to set up a university. If that university has high enough academic standards then its degrees will be coveted. However, as a privately funded institute it has every right to fulfil its original purpose of operating by a Christian ethos, and that will be maintained by ensuring their intake is largely composed of Christians, and by making Christian worship part of life on campus.
Right PDN. I'll give you a scenario.
Bob is a Muslim/Other and has applied to the top Universities in his Country. Not getting into one of these Universities means Bob's life is going to be extremely difficult.
Bob gets an offer from one of the top Universities, they require Bob to attend church every week even though Bob is not Christian.
So Bob has to either sacrifice his own religious beliefs and follow the Universities rules or Bob can't go to University.
Bob is very sorry he didn't get an offer from one of the secular or Buddhist Universities which DON'T try and force their religion down his throat.I have no problem with non-Christians piggy-backing on the university's reputation for excellence to improve their CVs - but I think its crazy for them to then start complaining about the Christian ethos. They should be jolly grateful to the Christians for letting them benefit.
Yeah of course. I'm sure all the underground Christians in China should be jolly grateful to the party to allow them to worship any religion at all!
How would you feel if this was reversed and it was Islam for example that was been stuffed down the throats of Christian students who have no other choice!0 -
Going to a lesser University rather than a top University may be an inconvenience, but I think you exaggerate the misery of one's life as a result.Right PDN. I'll give you a scenario.
Bob is a Muslim/Other and has applied to the top Universities in his Country. Not getting into one of these Universities means Bob's life is going to be extremely difficult.
Then Bob should get mad at the State because they don't provide enough quality universities. It's hardly the fault of the Christians that they are doing a better job. If Bob doesn't want to go to Church then he doesn't have to go to the University.Bob gets an offer from one of the top Universities, they require Bob to attend church every week even though Bob is not Christian.
So Bob has to either sacrifice his own religious beliefs and follow the Universities rules or Bob can't go to University
Btw, I myself am on a denominational board which oversees a large University in the US, so I have some idea of the issues involved here.
Spare us such nonsense. The two situations are not comparable, as you well know. People in Korea have a choice whether they attend a University or not. They can also attend secular Universities (even if some of those Universities don't have the prestige of some of the Christian Universities).Yeah of course. I'm sure all the underground Christians in China should be jolly grateful to the party to allow them to worship any religion at all!
How would I feel about there being privately funded Islamic Universities, and that people had a choice whether they wanted to go such Universities or not? That if they chose the Islamic University over a secular University because it was more prestigious, they then had to attend a mosque once a week? I would have no problem with that whatsoever. I would not support the kind of discrimination that would prevent Muslims from achieving academic excellence in their schools, or that would force the State's religious ideology onto the Muslims and force them to change how they run their privately funded schools. That would represent State interference with religion, and would be a denial of secularist principles.How would you feel if this was reversed and it was Islam for example that was been stuffed down the throats of Christian students who have no other choice!0 -
Going to a lesser University rather than a top University may be an inconvenience, but I think you exaggerate the misery of one's life as a result.
Misery ? No. But requirement for a good job Yes. Take Samsung for example, highly competitive to get into and they won't touch you unless you come from one of the top Universities.Then Bob should get mad at the State because they don't provide enough quality universities. It's hardly the fault of the Christians that they are doing a better job. If Bob doesn't want to go to Church then he doesn't have to go to the University.
So its fair enough in your opinion ? Religious run institutions that discriminate based on religion and try to force religion on people is fine by you ? Oh sorry, so long as they sign up to it 'willingly'.
Bit like how religious conversion worked in the past isn't it ? Convert to my religion or you won't get X benefit. Its hardly the states fault that its a Y religion country. If people don't want to go to Church Y then they have no one but themselves to blame when they can't get benefit X.
Actually I've heard of something very similar happening in South East Asia. Missionaries going to poor communities offering food, clothing and medicine. The only catch is they have to convert to get any of it.
Fair enough in your opinion too is it ?Btw, I myself am on a denominational board which oversees a large University in the US, so I have some idea of the issues involved here.
Yeah. PDN when I discuss religious issues with you here I admit that most of the time I end up getting proven wrong but this is the first time I feel sickened by your response.
You think using education and standard of living as tools to convert is OK.Spare us such nonsense. The two situations are not comparable, as you well know. People in Korea have a choice whether they attend a University or not. They can also attend secular Universities (even if some of those Universities don't have the prestige of some of the Christian Universities).
And people in China have a choice of many different religions including Christianity sponsored by the state. Its completely comparable, if people want to be Christian in China then they have plenty of legal state sponsored choices.How would I feel about there being privately funded Islamic Universities.......
Yet your against the legal religions in China been forced on people even though those same people have a choice to be religious or not.
Please think about this more because either I'm not explaining the situation well enough or I've seriously misjudged your character.0 -
Misery ? No. But requirement for a good job Yes. Take Samsung for example, highly competitive to get into and they won't touch you unless you come from one of the top Universities.
Just work hard enough to get into one of the secular ones if you don't like Christianity.So its fair enough in your opinion ? Religious run institutions that discriminate based on religion and try to force religion on people is fine by you ? Oh sorry, so long as they sign up to it 'willingly'.
You're welcome to attend on certain conditions. That's your choice.Actually I've heard of something very similar happening in South East Asia. Missionaries going to poor communities offering food, clothing and medicine. The only catch is they have to convert to get any of it.
Citation, if that is the case that is 100% wrong. One cannot ensure that their new found belief is genuine.You think using education and standard of living as tools to convert is OK.
I don't think accepting that church is a part of a Christian university is that big of a deal. If you don't want to be involved, go to a different university.And people in China have a choice of many different religions including Christianity sponsored by the state. Its completely comparable, if people want to be Christian in China then they have plenty of legal state sponsored choices.
You're limited to a certain denomination, with certain beliefs.Yet your against the legal religions in China been forced on people even though those same people have a choice to be religious or not.
Not being allowed to practice religion that is not approved of by the State is a rather different thing than being required to go to chapel in a Christian university.0 -
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By definition, if they sign up willingly for something, then it's not being forced on them. Students choose whether to attend such Universities, and in so doing they accept the rules.So its fair enough in your opinion ? Religious run institutions that discriminate based on religion and try to force religion on people is fine by you ? Oh sorry, so long as they sign up to it 'willingly'.
If that really happened (excuse my scepticism as in the past we've had posters offer some whoppers on here that they've supposedly 'heard of') then that would be totally wrong in my opinion.Actually I've heard of something very similar happening in South East Asia. Missionaries going to poor communities offering food, clothing and medicine. The only catch is they have to convert to get any of it.
However, you are comparing apples with oranges. A privately-funded University is not charitable aid.
No, I think churches should be encouraged to set up institutions to provide educational opportunities for their members, and to do it in a way that is consistent with their beliefs and values. I also think it is nice that they allow non-members to attend these Universities. However, I think it is pure selfishness for these non-members to expect the church institutions to change their practices to suit them.You think using education and standard of living as tools to convert is OK.
Look at it this way. We cook dinner for our family each night. It is our practice to pray at the dinner table. Now, if you asked if you could come and visit us for dinner then I hope we would be hospitable enough to let you join us. But we're not going to stop our practice of praying at the dinner table in order to make you feel happier. And it would very unreasonable of you to demand such a concession for us - even if you feel justified on the basis that nowhere else that will accept you serves as good food as us.
Now I think you're just trolling. People in China are arrested and tortured for exercising their basic human right (recognised by the UN) to worship according to their own consciences.And people in China have a choice of many different religions including Christianity sponsored by the state. Its completely comparable, if people want to be Christian in China then they have plenty of legal state sponsored choices.
That is hardly the same as demanding that you should be allowed to attend a privately funded University while flouting their rules because you don't like them.
You really don't garner support for your position with such specious arguments.0 -
Just work hard enough to get into one of the secular ones if you don't like Christianity.
And if you only get offered a place in a Christian one ?
And 'work hard enough' clearly shows you know nothing about this country. High school students normal hours are 7am until 10pm 6 days a week with almost no winter or summer vacation to speak of. When they're not in public school they are in private academies getting tutoring.You're welcome to attend on certain conditions. That's your choice.
And until a few years ago you HAD to be Christian. Is that ok too ?Citation, if that is the case that is 100% wrong. One cannot ensure that their new found belief is genuine.
But trying to force it down students throats is fine because they might 'find' god ?
.I don't think accepting that church is a part of a Christian university is that big of a deal. If you don't want to be involved, go to a different university
Would you attend Muslim services for 4 years twice a week ?You're limited to a certain denomination, with certain beliefs.
Bit like been limited to one religion then isn't it ?Not being allowed to practice religion that is not approved of by the State is a rather different thing than being required to go to chapel in a Christian university.
Says you.0 -
And if you only get offered a place in a Christian one ?
Take it and be glad of it, and go to chapel. Who knows, it might be good for you. Or reject it and try again.And until a few years ago you HAD to be Christian. Is that ok too ?
It's better for the university to welcome non-Christians. However, the ethos of the university is for their discretion as a private university.But trying to force it down students throats is fine because they might 'find' god ?
It's a Christian university. If you don't want to go to a Christian university, the options are available. This is really going off topic, but I remember distinctly last time, I looked up the top 10 in South Korea and they were all secular.
http://whichuniversitybest.blogspot.com/2008/07/top-universities-in-south-korea.html
http://www.topuniversities.com/country-guides/south-korea/
I see no problem with a Christian university:
1) Having policies in line with their ethos.
2) Students evangelising.Would you attend Muslim services for 4 years twice a week ?
If I wanted to go to an Islamic university, I'd probably agree to it.Bit like been limited to one religion then isn't it ?
You're not limited to one religion at all. You can believe in any faith and still adhere to the colleges requirement of church.Says you.
Indeed, says I!
It's hugely different. Being put in jail for practising ones beliefs isn't the same as having to attend college chapel.0 -
If that really happened (excuse my scepticism as in the past we've had posters offer some whoppers on here that they've supposedly 'heard of') then that would be totally wrong in my opinion.
However, you are comparing apples with oranges. A privately-funded University is not charitable aid.
Are you saying it doesn't happen ?No, I think churches should be encouraged to set up institutions to provide educational opportunities for their members, and to do it in a way that is consistent with their beliefs and values. I also think it is nice that they allow non-members to attend these Universities. However, I think it is pure selfishness for these non-members to expect the church institutions to change their practices to suit them.
And what is wrong with just making the church side an option ?Look at it this way. We cook dinner for our family each night. It is our practice to pray at the dinner table. Now, if you asked if you could come and visit us for dinner then I hope we would be hospitable enough to let you join us. But we're not going to stop our practice of praying at the dinner table in order to make you feel happier. And it would very unreasonable of you to demand such a concession for us - even if you feel justified on the basis that nowhere else that will accept you serves as good food as us.
That is a completely ridiculous comparison. I have the choice to leave the room when you pray, I have the choice to stay outside until you finish, I have the choice of going to many peoples homes for dinner.
These people do NOT have a choice no matter how much you try and say they do.
Yes in fairness as we all already know there are secular and Buddhist Universities who don't force religion on people and they COULD go to them IF they got offers from them. But when this is not the case they HAVE to go to the Christian one.
I am not saying the University should stop having church services, I am not saying they should be secular, all I am saying is that people should NOT be forced to attend religious services. Have the religious services, just don't force it on people.Now I think you're just trolling. People in China are arrested and tortured for exercising their basic human right (recognised by the UN) to worship according to their own consciences.
People get thrown out of Universities for not attending religious ceremonies.0 -
Take it and be glad of it, and go to chapel. Who knows, it might be good for you. Or reject it and try again.
I'm not talking about me! I'm not an undergraduate and I'm not attending one of the Christian schools. Even if I was I wouldn't like it but I would just go to the church and listen to my mp3 player or something because I have no religion.
I am talking about the people who HAVE a religion.
I have a Muslim friend who is going to start in one of these Universities next March. Here's the facts. His family are here as immigrants from pakistan, he applied to many Universities and of the top ones only got an offer from the Christian one. As a foreigner and frankly speaking, as a pakistani, its going to be extremely difficult for him to get a job even with a good University degree on his CV.
His family are very religious and are very involved in the muslim community here.
Do I need to tell you what happened when he told them where he was going and what he has to do or can you fill that in for yourself ?
You think this is fair ?It's a Christian university. If you don't want to go to a Christian university, the options are available. This is really going off topic, but I remember distinctly last time, I looked up the top 10 in South Korea and they were all secular.
http://whichuniversitybest.blogspot.com/2008/07/top-universities-in-south-korea.html
http://www.topuniversities.com/country-guides/south-korea/
Heres a list of the top 3 (by far) and as you can see they are most certainly NOT all secular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKY_(universities)0 -
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Do I need to tell you what happened when he told them where he was going and what he has to do or can you fill that in for yourself ?
You think this is fair ?
It appears that his family have problems with the fact that it is a Christian university rather than a secular one.
Yes, I think it is fair that the Christian university can uphold its ethos. It's not a secular university, you're acting as if the university should drop its Christian character for these people. If people want a university without this, then the option is to go for the other ones, or to go to university outside of South Korea.Heres a list of the top 3 (by far) and as you can see they are most certainly NOT all secular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKY_(universities)
Why is there a contradiction between the other university rankings and this?0 -
It appears that his family have problems with the fact that it is a Christian university rather than a secular one.
His family have a problem with him being FORCED to attend Christian worship.Yes, I think it is fair that the Christian university can uphold its ethos. It's not a secular university, you're acting as if the university should drop its Christian character for these people. If people want a university without this, then the option is to go for the other ones,
But what is wrong with it been a Christian University and not FORCING people to attend church ? I am not saying they shouldn't be Christian but why FORCE it on people. Even if the people who went there were all Christians, why must church be compulsory ? You can't be Christian without going to church ?or to go to university outside of South Korea.
Yes. And this I think is the main problem, you think my friend has a choice, he could just try again next year for another University, he could move to another country. You are looking at this from your perspective, he can't do either of those things. He possibly could wait until next year and he thought about it but a year is a long time and he mightn't get an offer at all next year. Things are getting more competitive not less.Why is there a contradiction between the other university rankings and this?
The other University rankings are international aren't they ?
Heres another list from 2009, web popularity.
http://www.4icu.org/kr/
The rankings within Korea differ greatly depending on the field you want to study. e.g > One University which is Catholic is highly regarded for medicine but extremely low for everything else. KAIST (The number 2 in most international lists) would be the Korean equivalent of MIT, fantastic for technical stuff but not great for other things.
And also you have the problem of traditionalism. Regardless of the International ranking of the Universities or even the internal Korean rankings (which also differ hugely) the top 3 are always regarded as the SKY institutes. Also, Universities inside Seoul are regarded by many people to be far superior to Universities outside Seoul simply for their location.
As the wiki article says;Regardless of the academic standing of the SKY universities internationally, inside Korea, admission to one of them is widely considered as determining one's career and social status.
Don't you understand that this is not the same as a choice between going to Oxford or going to Trinity in our European mindset ?
You can go to UCG and make a great career for yourself, the ranking isn't that important. In Korea its an absolutely huge difference.
Go to a University down the list, lets say 20th and you can forget about getting a decent job in a decent company making a decent living.
Hell if you went to a 20th+ ranked Uni and studied for example Web design you'll be lucky to get a job in web design at all.
I don't think you realise just how competitive it is here.0 -
monosharp: Are you really blaming the Christian universities for having such prestige? I mean if the universities weren't good in ranking I doubt you'd care.
Also, if I had to. I would go to mosque in an Islamic university, or synagogue in a Jewish one.0 -
monosharp: Are you really blaming the Christian universities for having such prestige? I mean if the universities weren't good in ranking I doubt you'd care.
No, I am blaming them for their religious intolerance and their middle aged mentality and the trouble they have caused to my friend and many others.
By the way Jackass, heres another one for you. A few years ago a student went to and passed a degree course in one of these Christian institutions and promptly was NOT given his degree by the University because he failed to attend enough church classes.
Is that right in your opinion ? The poor kid spent a fortune to go to a University for 4 years, got a decent score and failed because he didn't go to Church enough times.
I am blaming these institutions because there are national, secular and Buddhist Universities in this country and they are the only ones (with the exception of one Buddhist University which to my knowledge force students to take a Buddhism history class) who force students to partake in a religious ceremony.
Aren't you yourself annoyed that they are trying to force their religion on people ? Or do you agree with evangelism in this aggressive form ?
I would be equally annoyed by a University which forbade religious prayer or a Buddhist University which tried to force religious ceremony, or an Islam one or any other.Also, if I had to. I would go to mosque in an Islamic university, or synagogue in a Jewish one.
So you think its a good thing that students are forced to partake in religious ceremony ? You think its a good thing they are not given a choice ?0 -
No, I am blaming them for their religious intolerance and their middle aged mentality and the trouble they have caused to my friend and many others.
"Middle aged mentality"?By the way Jackass, heres another one for you. A few years ago a student went to and passed a degree course in one of these Christian institutions and promptly was NOT given his degree by the University because he failed to attend enough church classes.
If you aren't conforming to the requirements of the university then that is fair enough.Is that right in your opinion ? The poor kid spent a fortune to go to a University for 4 years, got a decent score and failed because he didn't go to Church enough times.
It was his own doing for not confirming to the university requirements.Aren't you yourself annoyed that they are trying to force their religion on people ? Or do you agree with evangelism in this aggressive form ?
They aren't though. Whether or not you go to a Christian University is up to you.I would be equally annoyed by a University which forbade religious prayer or a Buddhist University which tried to force religious ceremony, or an Islam one or any other.
In the prayer ban situation there are two options:
1) Pray off campus.
2) Pray on campus and be willing to accept the consequences.
I wouldn't be annoyed at a Muslim or a Buddhist university for presenting it's own ethos.So you think its a good thing that students are forced to partake in religious ceremony ? You think its a good thing they are not given a choice ?
They aren't forced by any means.
This is really coming off as trolling now, we are talking about how Christianity can work in public society, and you are going on a rant about a private South Korean university that you don't even go to!0 -
"Middle aged mentality"? [/quotes]
Middle ages, sorry.It was his own doing for not confirming to the university requirements.
So he spent 4 years studying for a (e.g) law degree, passed all his exams and he failed and can't get his degree because he missed 1 too many church classes ? And you think thats fair ?This is really coming off as trolling now, we are talking about how Christianity can work in public society, and you are going on a rant about a private South Korean university that you don't even go to!
trolling ? So you think I just want to argue ? Or I don't actually care or what ? How are you defining this as trolling ?
Because I am sick and tired of people here bringing out the trolling or the strawman brush. Everytime a topic gets to the difficult to answer stages the Christians here bring out the strawman or the trolling brush. Its so overused it has lost all meaning here.0 -
So he spent 4 years studying for a (e.g) law degree, passed all his exams and he failed and can't get his degree because he missed 1 too many church classes ? And you think thats fair ?
That's their fault. I'm not sure if that should be the case if there is a legitimate excuse though.trolling ? So you think I just want to argue ? Or I don't actually care or what ? How are you defining this as trolling ?
I am, it's absolutely off topic to the thread and we've discussed about South Korean university life before.I am sick and tired of people here bringing out the trolling or the strawman brush. Everytime a topic gets to the difficult to answer stages the Christians here bring out the strawman or the trolling brush. Its so overused it has lost all meaning here.
It's a true one in this case.0 -
OK, a generous amount of leeway has been given, but this thread is not about educational systems in South Korea, and talk about it will not be tolerated any longer.
So, is secularism the best path for Christianity?0
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