EirGrid pushing to erect 400 new pylons

Carawaystick

What two "interconnectors" are you talking about?
Moyle and EastWest? or the two parallel lines linking the six counties to the 26 counties? Neither of these can be upgraded while there is no alternative route to transfer enough power to keep the grid synchronised and the single electricity market working.
The lines already in use between the 6 counties and the 26 can be uprated when there is an alternative connection, as there is redundancy in the links.
While there are only the original two lines they are constrained as if either one failed, there needs to be enough capacity on the other line to transfer the power needed. When there are 4 lines, more power can be transferred through all of them as the is one fails, it's power can now be transferred through the remaining three lines.

Interconectors only connect different grids. there is only one grid in Ireland.

Sponge Bob

Carawaystick wrote: »

What two "interconnectors" are you talking about?

I know that these are component parts of a synchronised grid. Historically (quite recently even by Viridian) they were called the "North South Interconnectors" . I am referring to the 2 border crossings on the Armagh - Louth border ...formerly called Interconnectors but technically not so Carawaystick.

I repeat my question from earlier in the thread and invite a reasoned and judciious answer this time ...especially if the respondent considers themselves an expert

"why this particular line and why there"

Carawaystick

I see you've given up replying to the question asked about where else is a hvac line of similar size implemented under land, not under sea?

Are you still asking why an hvac line is needed? THis has been explained here already.

Looking at the grid map shows the 6 counties have a 275kV node near the Dungannon end of Lough Neagh, which provides a strong link to the Power plants in Coolkeragh, Ballylumford and Kilroot. There is also the ability to connect to the 220kV line that runs east west from Carrick on Shannon to the southern end of the existing cross border circuits.

Where would you provide the extra power capacity and how would you implement it?

Sponge Bob

Carawaystick wrote: »

Where would you provide the extra power capacity and how would you implement it?

We need HVDC and HVAC in parallel and yet we only ever get HVAC proposals.

HDVC as a continous corridor from the west and across the Irish sea and Celtic sea for exporting surplus wind etc and one or two heavy duty HVDC waystations ( not convertors) to integrate these HVDC links. We already have one potential one in Meath.

HVAC for strengthening the National Grid is acceptable as ever.

Eirgrid have done nothing about HVDC and why should they under the current regulatory regime . They have a complete monopoly on transit and on the termination of transit and intend to charge full whack and with their obscene salaries loaded into the cost stack for any HVDC parallel grid in future.

Carawaystick

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We need HVDC and HVAC in parallel and yet we only ever get HVAC proposals.

HDVC as a continous corridor from the west and across the Irish sea and Celtic sea for exporting surplus wind etc and one or two heavy duty HVDC waystations ( not convertors) to integrate these HVDC links. We already have one potential one in Meath.

HVAC for strengthening the National Grid is acceptable as ever.

Eirgrid have done nothing about HVDC and why should they under the current regulatory regime . They have a complete monopoly on transit and on the termination of transit and intend to charge full whack and with their obscene salaries loaded into the cost stack for any HVDC parallel grid in future.

hvdc can only be controlled at one end, it's hard to control power flows at intermediate/other points, so it's much easier to deal with point to point links. so long distance links >500km overgorund>70km underland/undersea make sense. tapping off doesn't.

How would you reinforce the ac grid?
I'd build the Meath Tyrone circuit, and another circuit from Derry to Donegal, wo get wind power from there.
Look how the power generation in the 6 counties is compared to here.

the links from Ireland to Britain are hvdc.

If we followed your suggestion and had a c link between Norn Iron and Meath, how would this hep get power from Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry etc to where the demand is?????

How would we get the ancilliary services from the norn iron grid over a dc cct?


Also we will only be able to export wind when the wind blows. It;s a fairly regular occurrance each year that the peak electricity demand happens the week before Christmas and for the last few years there has been nice bright dry *calm* weather. last year there was about 80MW from a demand of 5GW generated by wind......

Sponge Bob

Carawaystick wrote: »

hvdc can only be controlled at one end, it's hard to control power flows at intermediate/other points, so it's much easier to deal with point to point links. so long distance links >500km overgorund>70km underland/undersea make sense. tapping off doesn't.

Grand.

Jim Martin

This may have been covered already, but is there not a problem with cooling underground HV cables?

paulm17781

So is

"No line of this size and type has ever been placed underground anywhere in the world."

In fact true?

Sponge Bob

paulm17781 wrote: »

So is

"No line of this size and type has ever been placed underground anywhere in the world."

In fact true?

It looks like it will be even more true soon, 440KV AC for all

Zen65

Jim Martin wrote: »

This may have been covered already, but is there not a problem with cooling underground HV cables?

Yes, and no. Underground cables require a lot more metal than an equivalent overhead line because there is inadequate cooling in the soil. So they are designed to compensate for this lack of cooling. Unlike overhead lines, cables are compromised if they cross near to other cables underground, as this causes a thermal de-rating of both circuits. The end game is that underground cables are more costly, and in material terms more environmentally unfriendly (the cross-laminated poly ethylene insulation on underground cables are produced by a fairly toxic process, as I understand) than overhead lines.

Cheers,

Z.

Jim Martin

Zen65 wrote: »

Yes, and no. Underground cables require a lot more metal than an equivalent overhead line because there is inadequate cooling in the soil. So they are designed to compensate for this lack of cooling. Unlike overhead lines, cables are compromised if they cross near to other cables underground, as this causes a thermal de-rating of both circuits. The end game is that underground cables are more costly, and in material terms more environmentally unfriendly (the cross-laminated poly ethylene insulation on underground cables are produced by a fairly toxic process, as I understand) than overhead lines.

Cheers,

Z.

Thanks Z.

patgill

Having just read through this thread, I see an awful lot of compartmentalised thought processes.

Both sides of this argument can be correct.

The constraint on using HVDC to link the northern and southern grids is in fact the provision of ancillary services in the southern region, but then again there will be some major changes in the reality of this constraint as we roll out high capacity pumped storage.

Grid25 is often described as the plan to enable increased penetration of renewables, but that is not entirely the case, our grid infrastructure needs to be largely replaced at this stage.

For what its worth, many of the objections to the new north/south line can be considered self interest on the part of the landowners and NIMBYism from many others and yet I have to say that the entrenched views of the line designers might also need ammendment.

I have often been a critic of Grid25 and yet in my view, only certain parts need amendment. We are extremely fortunate in Ireland, to be one of the few countries in Europe, indeed the world, to have a very robust generation capacity going forward, however our aging grid infrastructure threatens the economic advantage this gives us.

We are at a very important crossroads in our economic journey and what is needed at this stage is an enlightened view to be taken and just get the job done,

It IS possible to run small parts of our AC grid underground, perhaps through extremely important visually sensitive area's, but if we are to ever take maximum advantage of our domestic energy resources we DO need a lot more pylons but the absolute number can be reduced by engaging in a new approach to the problem.

And HVDC will have a very important part to play in our economic revitalisation.

Pat

lucernarian

Robust generation capacity going forward?! We have over a GW of wind generation capacity IIRC but that is only good if there's wind around. This point has already been made. But strengthening a grid is only part of the solution. Where is the actual energy going to be stored for when it is needed?? I really can't see where we have the pumped storage needed to take advantage of wind technology. Perhaps wave and tidal technologies would suit our current infrastructure capabilities more, and I see the Scots have made big announcements in this regard recently.

patgill

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Robust generation capacity going forward?! We have over a GW of wind generation capacity IIRC but that is only good if there's wind around.

I was actually referring to our very modern fleet of gas plants

This point has already been made. But strengthening a grid is only part of the solution. Where is the actual energy going to be stored for when it is needed?? I really can't see where we have the pumped storage needed to take advantage of wind technology.

Even without taking the Spirit of Ireland project seriously, a mistake, you might wish to take a look here.

Perhaps wave and tidal technologies would suit our current infrastructure capabilities more, and I see the Scots have made big announcements in this regard recently.

Same problems as wind, never mind, the doctor is here now.

lucernarian

patgill wrote: »

Same problems as wind, never mind, the doctor is here now.

I don't understand that doctor reference... Wouldn't you agree that tidal electricity generation is rather more predictable than wind generation? It's also far more constant, as water is constantly moving to/from a bay except at high and low tides.


As for the website you linked of the academic, just making a computer programme to identify possible sites without giving the specific criteria is not something I'm going to take seriously, whatever about the Spirit of Ireland thing which has Govt. backing and a plausible mode of operation.

patgill

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't understand that doctor reference...

Simply a little humour

Wouldn't you agree that tidal electricity generation is rather more predictable than wind generation? It's also far more constant, as water is constantly moving to/from a bay except at high and low tides.

I agree that in the medium term that Ocean energy will play a large role in the world's energy supply and Ireland is well endowed with such resources, there are however challenges yet to be overcome, particularly in the environmental realm and as a member of the S of I group, I intend to do everything within my power to overcome these obstacles.

As for the website you linked of the academic, just making a computer programme to identify possible sites without giving the specific criteria is not something I'm going to take seriously, whatever about the Spirit of Ireland thing which has Govt. backing and a plausible mode of operation.

The University of Limerick is doing sterling work in the energy field and David Connolly's computer programme actually shows that there are a huge number of freshwater pumped storage sites in Ireland, small but they will in time be a vital part of this countries infrastructure over the coming decades.

S of I do not yet have official government backing, almost there though.

lostinNaas

I don't know anything on this subject, so this might be a stupid question, but....

Is there any reason that pylons could not be replaced by windmills? A line of windmills, adapted to carry cables, might look better, and meet less resistance than standard pylons. Is it technically possible for a wind turbine to transfer power to a high voltage line?
I'm sure a windmill costs multiple times a pylon, so the "line" would be expensive, but the cost would be recouped in time from the power generated.

L1011

lostinNaas wrote: »

I don't know anything on this subject, so this might be a stupid question, but....

Is there any reason that pylons could not be replaced by windmills? A line of windmills, adapted to carry cables, might look better, and meet less resistance than standard pylons. Is it technically possible for a wind turbine to transfer power to a high voltage line?
I'm sure a windmill costs multiple times a pylon, so the "line" would be expensive, but the cost would be recouped in time from the power generated.

Wind farms get even MORE opposition from local people generally. Rather like suggesting we replace an incinerator a community is complaining about with a full on Sellafield!

Also, due to being generally being on low heights, they won't get much wind, and hence likely never recoup their costs.

Zen65

lostinNaas wrote: »

I don't know anything on this subject, so this might be a stupid question, but....

Is there any reason that pylons could not be replaced by windmills? A line of windmills, adapted to carry cables, might look better, and meet less resistance than standard pylons. Is it technically possible for a wind turbine to transfer power to a high voltage line?
I'm sure a windmill costs multiple times a pylon, so the "line" would be expensive, but the cost would be recouped in time from the power generated.

No, wind turbines cannot transfer power directly to a (400kV) high voltage line. There would need to be an interface transformer (with controls & protection) to step the voltage up at each turbine (I estimate that would cost at least €8M extra at each turbine, based on current standards for a 400kV line). MYOB is also correct that the wind turbines would be also inefficient and extremely unpopular along these lines.

But you do nonetheless present an interesting way of looking at this. Generally speaking, nobody ever objects to more public lighting, so why not stick a street light on each pylon? They could be powered directly by small induction coils!

Keep the faith,

Z.

patgill

There was this idea




http://www.metropolismag.com/story/20090513/harvesting-the-wind

From the window of a TGV hurtling through France, the countryside flattens to a smudge—electrical towers rise and recede in clusters, and tall, lanky wind turbines seem to whip off pirouettes like a young Moira Shearer. Most passengers turn their heads, nodding off on a neighbor or burying their noses in Le Monde, but for a tri*umvirate of young designers, the sight is a view of the future. The passing turbines and pylons augur a new way to harness renewable energy in a country that relies almost entirely on nuclear power. “When we’re riding on the train, we al-ways see pylons, and some turbines too,” Nic*ola Delon says. “We say, ‘Both are here. Can’t we mix them together?’”

Zen65

Right, lovely idea.

Here's another ..... just use warp coils in people's homes, cut out the middleman



Cheers,

Z.

dowlingm

Zen65 wrote: »

nobody ever objects to more public lighting

Astronomers do, as do groups like the Campaign for the Protection of Rural England. The night sky is one of the best thing about the countryside, and lots of the pylons you mention march across said countryside.

patgill

dowlingm wrote: »

Astronomers do, as do groups like the Campaign for the Protection of Rural England. The night sky is one of the best thing about the countryside, and lots of the pylons you mention march across said countryside.

Unfortunately modern civilisation also depends on said pylons.

Otherwise there is no economy.

No modern farming, no industry and the wonders of the night sky would be visible in towns.

There is a balance that must be struck here, and in this case the NIMBY will become a BITA foc and pdq.

A BITA ? = Bitten In The Ar$e

Zen65

dowlingm wrote: »

Astronomers do, as do groups like the Campaign for the Protection of Rural England. The night sky is one of the best thing about the countryside, and lots of the pylons you mention march across said countryside.

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(I copied this art from somebody else's posting)

Often when people object to structures (pylons, telecom masts, roads, airports, etc) being built for infrastructural purposes they argue that "other technologies" should be used ... usually regardless of the cost... in order to mitigate against some aspect of the infrastructure. For this reason people often talk about small-scale renewable generation as if it was a replacement for Transmission infrastructure, but that's just a convenient lack of understanding on their part.

I propose this is a joint responsibility, and if (for example) you want to study the sky then you should build observatories high up where they are not affected by pylons, telecom masts or buildings. This has largely been done already, so anyone wishing for an uninterrupted view of the sky should simply travel to these observatories and look at it from there.

Regards,

Z.

jack presley

Why don't the astronomers look at stuff higher up in sky? The highest pylon can't be more that 30-40m high. I've seen stars higher in the sky than that!

dowlingm

Zen65 - you made a stupid statement (nobody objects...) and I pointed out them who do. Don't blame me because you couldn't be @rsed thinking before posting.

patgill - I don't believe I said that astronomers object to pylons - merely to superfluous lighting. Pylons tend to be routed away from people where possible so "extra lighting" would be illuminating grass and sheep as well as people who moved to the country to get away from constant urban glow.

patgill

dowlingm wrote: »

Zen65 - you made a stupid statement (nobody objects...) and I pointed out them who do. Don't blame me because you couldn't be @rsed thinking before posting.

patgill - I don't believe I said that astronomers object to pylons - merely to superfluous lighting. Pylons tend to be routed away from people where possible so "extra lighting" would be illuminating grass and sheep as well as people who moved to the country to get away from constant urban glow.

dowlingm

I have yet to meet an astronomer who objects to pylons either.

And I didn't comment at all about using them for public lighting, they would in the main be in the wrong place for a start.

Light polution is a societal problem quite apart from electricity production and transmission.

The main objections to pylons run broadly along the lines scenic amenity and their perceived impact on the value of property, with nonsense claims about health effects being used by the proponents of both of these points of view.

I would suggest that the non availability of electricity would have a much greater impact on the price of property than the presence or otherwise of electricity pylons.

And the scenic amenity aspect is very often overstated.

BITA for our children is the result of both objections.

murphaph

I actually like pylons, I find the sweeping lengths of HT cable somehow graceful

patgill

murphaph wrote: »

I actually like pylons, I find the sweeping lengths of HT cable somehow graceful

I navigate by them:)

North Cork

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/eirgrid-profiled-elderly-in-plans-to-build-pylons-2209812.html

Eirgrid 'profiled elderly' in plans to build pylons

Sunday June 06 2010

Eirgrid, has used age profiling, targeting elderly farmers living alone, to identify the "path of least resistance" to erect pylons for an interconnector in the north-east that would link electricity grids in the North and the Republic, it was claimed last week.

The extraordinary claim was made to An Bord Pleanala's public oral hearing into the plan for a 140km overhead line on high lattice towers stretching from Co Meath to Co Tyrone by James McNally, who is a chartered management accountant.

Mr McNally, who has worked extensively in Irish business as well as with the HSE and local authorities, carried out an analysis of the planned route in his own locality near Castleblayney, Co Monaghan.

He told the oral hearing in Carrickmacross, Co Monaghan, that a study of the maps and landowner boundaries presented in the Environmental Impact Study strongly suggested that Eirgrid had used age profiling in identifying its target route passing through his neighbourhood.
"They have targeted elderly bachelor farmers whose ages range between 70 and 82," he said.

The plan has provoked widespread opposition among local groups, including the North East Pylon Pressure Group, which argues that large pylons and high voltage overhead power lines are not suitable for the area.

They suggested that an underground cable running beside existing railway lines was a viable and better alternative, and would not impact on animal and human health or on the tourism sector in the north-east.

Eirgrid said there were no health issues relating to overhead power lines and that the development was needed to improve electricity competition by reducing constraints to the all-island electricity market and improving supply and reliability of the network in the north-east.

Mr McNally said that he had experience of correlation and regression analysis and he believed that these, or similar computerised mathematical techniques using updated software technology, may have been used by Eirgrid to determine the line where least resistance would be encountered -- "namely, location address, marital status and age of elderly landowners".

He said he also believed that Eirgrid had also used "local knowledge" to ascertain the ages and circumstances of people residing in a particular area.

"It is no coincidence, in my view, that most of the landowners living in my neighbourhood with the most number of pylons fall in to a certain elderly age category.

"These are facts, how they arrived at targeting this vulnerable group of people only Eirgrid has the answer," Mr McNally said.

In his submission made on behalf of his own family and four elderly farmers living in the area, Mr McNally produced a map that he said identified the route of the proposed interconnector, which appeared to traverse the land of many elderly farmers in a small area.

"I cannot believe that a public organisation would employ such tactics as to prey on the most vulnerable, weak and elderly people in our community.
"These people have worked hard to build up their farms and homesteads. They are in a weak position to defend themselves against well-educated Eirgrid officials, who will use their considerable knowledge and training to outsmart the elderly farmer.

"Isolated and alone, feeling stressed and worried, the elderly person is most likely to concede to authoritative figures," Mr McNally said.
- JEROME REILLY
Sunday Independent