Atheists and veganism/vegetarianism

iUseVi

Hi Peoples,

Just out of personal interest, just wondering what proportion of the atheist/agnostic population here is vegan, omnivore or other.

I'm not gonna state my own position I just want to see what the general trend is please. Just atheists and agnostics please, sorry to leave others out but its the A&As I am interested in here.

Poll options are limited, if you hold some other viewpoint expand below as usual. Thanks

Stercus Accidit

Mods Poll? Edit: Ah I posted a bit early I think.

I'm atheist/agnostic and am a full on omnivore

JTMan

I'm an atheist and a vegetarian.

iUseVi

Just to clarify, I'm not looking for a discussion on the morality of any particular stance, I just want the numbers. But if the thread goes that way so be it.

GLaDOS

Meat is so good it is a deity in itself...

rccaulfield

Lean protein for me!

Ro: maaan!

Never post here. Just saw this thread in new posts. But I'm pretty atheist, deffo veggie and drifting towards vegan.

redfacedbear

A total omnivore - curious to know if you think there should be some correlation between atheism and vegetarianism or not

rccaulfield

redfacedbear wrote: »

A total omnivore - curious to know if you think there should be some correlation between atheism and vegetarianism or not

Opposite i would have thought- most atheists know the facts of human history. Sorry if offending anyone.

rockmongrel

Atheist and vegetarian here.

iUseVi

I said I wasn't going to state my position but what the heck. I'm an atheist - currently a omnivore, but recently I've been thinking about how the food gets to my plate.

I don't expect a correlation between atheism and vegetarianism but I do expect the atheist to me more logical about their position. An atheist can't say "animals were given to us by God to eat" (heard this one many many times) or "the bible says...blah".

Obviously us human mammals are slightly different to the rest of the animal kingdom, but how different they are depends on the animal in question. If the (non-human) animal has a nervous system it can obviously feel pain.

I'm still mulling this over and haven't come to a decision. I understand the in the past and in certain situations eating meat was/is completely necessary. (Think of the Inuit people, no vegetables in the Arctic unless you count a few lichens.) But these days we have the luxury of making a choice, and a somewhat informed one at that. Just a glimpse of my current thoughts, nothing coherent I'm afraid.

Sam Vimes

iUseVi wrote: »

I said I wasn't going to state my position but what the heck. I'm an atheist - currently a omnivore, but recently I've been thinking about how the food gets to my plate.

I don't expect a correlation between atheism and vegetarianism but I do expect the atheist to me more logical about their position. An atheist can't say "animals were given to us by God to eat" (heard this one many many times) or "the bible says...blah".

Obviously us human mammals are slightly different to the rest of the animal kingdom, but how different they are depends on the animal in question. If the (non-human) animal has a nervous system it can obviously feel pain.

I'm still mulling this over and haven't come to a decision. I understand the in the past and in certain situations eating meat was/is completely necessary. (Think of the Inuit people, no vegetables in the Arctic unless you count a few lichens.) But these days we have the luxury of making a choice, and a somewhat informed one at that. Just a glimpse of my current thoughts, nothing coherent I'm afraid.

There isn't really a definite answer to that question, it's effectively moral relativism. We eat cows but frown on people eating dogs. We eat venison but right now people are trying to get reindeer, a slightly different species of deer, removed from Ikea. It all depends on what your culture finds acceptable.

You might then ask why we don't eat humans and I suppose the reason is evolutionary. We're social animals and society can't function if we go around murdering each other the whole time. There is no absolute moral authority commanding that we don't kill people, it's just that it's better for all concerned if we don't

iUseVi

Sam Vimes wrote: »

There isn't really a definite answer to that question, it's effectively moral relativism. We eat cows but frown on people eating dogs. We eat venison but right now people are trying to get reindeer, a slightly different species of deer, removed from Ikea. It all depends on what your culture finds acceptable.

You might then ask why we don't eat humans and I suppose the reason is evolutionary. We're social animals and society can't function if we go around murdering each other the whole time. There is no absolute moral authority commanding that we don't kill people, it's just that it's better for all concerned if we don't

Indeed, I agree with those points. I guess I'm an utilitarian, I wish to cause minimal suffering. There must be a line that is reasonable. I'm not going to be one of those monks that sweeps the road ahead to avoid killing insects, but yet I am uncomfortable when I think of pigs screaming as their throats are cut. (believe it or not this is a very common method of killing pigs on smaller farms, I have seen this first hand as a child, luckily I have never been one to have nightmares)

Coriolanus

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You might then ask why we don't eat humans and I suppose the reason is evolutionary. We're social animals and society can't function if we go around murdering each other the whole time.

History begs to differ.

Anyway, as to why we don't eat humans, the social element has only been formalised in a moral sense in the last few thousand years. Carnivores don't eat other carnivores generally, outside of their species as well as within. Carnivores are more prone to parasites and infections from infected foodstuffs (because animal to animal infection is a magnitude easier than plant to animal) and their bodies are subject to greater degrees of biomagnification, making carnivorous eating habits evolutionarily more risky and carnivorously eating other carnivores riskier again.

On that note, I eat too much meat. Especially Long Pig.

Sam Vimes

Nevore wrote: »

History begs to differ.

Anyway, as to why we don't eat humans, the social element has only been formalised in a moral sense in the last few thousand years. Carnivores don't eat other carnivores generally, outside of their species as well as within. Carnivores are more prone to parasites and infections from infected foodstuffs (because animal to animal infection is a magnitude easier than plant to animal) and their bodies are subject to greater degrees of biomagnification, making carnivorous eating habits evolutionarily more risky and carnivorously eating other carnivores riskier again.

On that note, I eat too much meat. Especially Long Pig.

Interesting, didn't know that. But I think you'll agree that evolutionary biological compulsions based on the parasites in carnivores don't work well nowadays as reasons not to kill people as it only applies if you intend to eat them afterwards

As well as that there's the altruism and empathy shown by animals that wouldn't generally be shown to other species, although there was a gorilla that was quite attached to its pet cat
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/01/10/us/around-the-nation-talking-gorilla-cries-after-pet-cat-is-killed.html

Zombrex

If God didn't want me to eat meat .... oh wait

Flamed Diving

If God didn't want us to eat animals, why would he make them out of meat?

lalee17

I'm an atheist and vegetarian, maybe vegan some day.

Genghiz Cohen

Meat tastes good.
I defy anyone to fry a piece of bacon, 'till the fat is golden brown and crispy, then not take a bite.

Valmont

What was that about evil being built into the fabric of the universe? Something by Terry Pratchett I think. I can see how vegetarians see killing animals as bad but well, such is life and death and its eternal circle. Some people choose to remove themselves from that circle but I embrace it wholeheartedly. There is nothing quite as rewarding as going out into the woods and hunting or catching your dinner.

rockmongrel

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Meat tastes good.
I defy anyone to fry a piece of bacon, 'till the fat is golden brown and crispy, then not take a bite.

Then defy you I shall

Naikon

Most animals would not exist at all if mass farming was not in effect.
If humane methods are implemented it's not too much of an issue.
I would rather survive for a limited period of time than not at all.

Blood rare steak seared for 30 secs each side at a high temp with
salt and pepper. No better food exists imo. Cruel farming == bad tbh.

rockmongrel

Naikon wrote: »

Most animals would not exist at all if mass farming was not in effect.

What a silly and completely invalid argument. Just because an animal exists because its species is mass produced hardly validates their killing anymore than killing an animal in the wild.

iUseVi

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Meat is so good it is a deity in itself...

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Meat tastes good.
I defy anyone to fry a piece of bacon, 'till the fat is golden brown and crispy, then not take a bite.

Naikon wrote: »

Blood rare steak seared for 30 secs each side at a high temp with
salt and pepper. No better food exists imo. Cruel farming == bad tbh.

Look, I'm not devoid of a sense of humour, but these kind of statements are just not constructive. You are missing the point - I love meat, just as much or more than the next person. My tradition on Sunday mornings to is have a delicious bacon sandwich (my form of church!:D).

If I was to become a vegetarian I would crave meat every day. It would be a very hard decision for me.

You cannot argue the morality of something based on how much you love it. I know you know this already, you are smart people. There are people in the world who get enjoyment out of torturing humans, does the fact that they enjoy it justify it? Of course not, it causes suffering to their victims, I don't need to explain this its elementary.

Now, like I said already I love meat. This is not what the argument is about so please refrain from this sort of comment, its just not helpful. If you can eloquently argue why you hold your position great, I know you are such intelligent people - but saying you like meat is not a valid argument. If I became a vegetarian tomorrow I would still love meat, that wouldn't have anything to do with why I didn't eat it.

/rant

robindch

iUseVi wrote: »

I'm not gonna state my own position I just want to see what the general trend is please. Just atheists and agnostics please, sorry to leave others out but its the A&As I am interested in here.

Just on a mod note, we generally discourage A+A-only requests, but we'll leave this one go. Long time no see, btw -- welcome back

iUseVi wrote: »

Blood rare steak seared for 30 secs each side at a high temp

It's hard to beat a Côte de Boeuf (aka Rib-eye steak) done this way. Much better than your average sirloin or fillet.

Btw, is there any place in Dublin that does a sous-vide steak?

iUseVi

robindch wrote: »

Just on a mod note, we generally discourage A+A-only requests, but we'll leave this one go. Long time no see, btw -- welcome back

Ah I didn't realise that sorry, but I really only wanted the numbers from the A&As but I suppose I could have constructed the poll differently. Thanks for the welcome dunno how long I'll stick around, the frustration is beginning already.

robindch wrote: »

It's hard to beat a Côte de Boeuf (aka Rib-eye steak) done this way. Much better than your average sirloin or fillet.

Btw, is there any place in Dublin that does a sous-vide steak?

*sigh*

fitz0

Nevore wrote: »

On that note, I eat too much meat. Especially Long Pig.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE

OT I usually have 1 or 2 veg only days in the week but otherwise I'm 100% omnivorous. Now to make the biggest turkey/ham/stuffing/gravy sandwich I ever saw.

fatmammycat

iUseVi wrote: »

I said I wasn't going to state my position but what the heck. I'm an atheist - currently a omnivore, but recently I've been thinking about how the food gets to my plate.

I don't expect a correlation between atheism and vegetarianism but I do expect the atheist to me more logical about their position. An atheist can't say "animals were given to us by God to eat" (heard this one many many times) or "the bible says...blah".

Obviously us human mammals are slightly different to the rest of the animal kingdom, but how different they are depends on the animal in question. If the (non-human) animal has a nervous system it can obviously feel pain.

I'm still mulling this over and haven't come to a decision. I understand the in the past and in certain situations eating meat was/is completely necessary. (Think of the Inuit people, no vegetables in the Arctic unless you count a few lichens.) But these days we have the luxury of making a choice, and a somewhat informed one at that. Just a glimpse of my current thoughts, nothing coherent I'm afraid.

Atheist, fish eater, but gave up all meat earlier this year after reading and watching and learning more about animal husbandry and slaughter. Absolutley and utterly turned me off meat for life- and like you I had been giving it some thought before hand and decided to investigate. I must say I am finding a meat free diet far easier than I initially thought I would and no longer miss things like bacon, which would at one point been a staple part of my diet.

Breezer

I've never posted in here before, but I just had a look in and saw this thread. I've been a vegetarian for 8 years and have no intention of ever eating meat again. I've had a horror of killing anything ever since I was a child, and it stems from that.

I'm not sure where I stand on the atheism front. I was raised a Catholic, and until recently I'd have called myself a Christian, if not a regular church-going one. The whole thing just seemed to make sense to me, and I have thought about it a good bit over the years. For whatever reason though, it just hasn't really made a whole lot of sense to me for the last year or so. I went to Mass with my family on Christmas Day and felt very out of place in there.

Do I think there's a connection between my dwindling religious belief and my vegetarianism? Yes, I think so. If there's nothing after death, then I think it becomes all the more important to treasure the life that we have, and to afford other creatures the same opportunity. Then again, if I do end up regaining my faith, I'll probably explain it as a logical extension of "Thou shalt not kill," the same way I used to

iUseVi wrote:

If I was to become a vegetarian I would crave meat every day. It would be a very hard decision for me.

OP, I was the same, I used to like meat. Trust me, after a while, you'll stop craving it. If you don't, Quorn products are far healthier and just as tasty anyway (I tend to use them for convenience rather than to satisfy meaty cravings though).

ShooterSF

I eat meat and love it. It's odd I had a pet dog and cried when it died but if someone said me to me "I'm after cooking some dog would you like to try it?" I'd probably say yes for curiosity if nothing else.

At the end of the day evolution has put our species on top of the food chain and I'm way too selfish to remove myself from it.

Here's a question for those in the know, would a 100% vegan human population be able to feed itself or would more than the current level of starvation occur?

Teferi

Can I ask why OP wants to know if A+A's are veggies/vegans or not?

Anyway, I'm a meat eater. I have no problem with veganism or vegetarianism in theory but the people I know or have met who practice either generally seem to think it makes them better people than everybody else or are a bit smug about it. Before any of you jump on this, notice the 'generally'.

liamw

I find it very difficult to say whether anything is 'moral' or not becuase I don't believe in objective morality. I believe morals, as a man made construct, are defined through our genes, social environment and peers.. and invariably differ across cultures and people.

On the point though, I personally don't think it is necessarily 'wrong' to eat meat, provided the animal is killed in a humane (pain free) manner.

Flamed Diving

There should have been a "baby meat" option, in fairness...

seamus

ShooterSF wrote: »

At the end of the day evolution has put our species on top of the food chain and I'm way too selfish to remove myself from it.

I know a hungry Great White who'd differ. The food chain is a construct quite distinct from evolution and has no concept of "top" or "bottom". The species at the traditional "bottom" of the food chain are the most successful on the planet.

Here's a question for those in the know, would a 100% vegan human population be able to feed itself or would more than the current level of starvation occur?

Using agricultural land for grazing/livestock is extremely wasteful. Believe it or not, it's not "impossible" to get all of your nutrition without meat - you just need to give it more consideration. Some people are under the mistaken impression that there are certain essential amino acids that occur nowhere else in nature but in meat. Which is nonsense. Vegan diets are a good deal harder in that respect, but again still not impossible.

The estimated figures are that if you were to feed your average man just fresh grown vegetables for a year, he would need one-eighth of an acre of land. To feed a cow for a year, you need half an acre of land. So if you assume that all omnivores consume a 50/50 diet which consists of one whole cow per year, then they use up one-half + one-sixteenth of an acre (9-16ths), versus one-eighth for your friendly vegan. So an omnivore consumes 4.5 times the agricultural resources of a vegan.

So to answer the actual question - there would be more land available to produce more food if the entire population was vegan. Of course, land space or food availability (globally) is not the issue with starvation.

People's reasons for being vegan or vegetarian are so varied and sometimes so obscure that you would have difficulty drawing a correlation between the diet and any religious/scientific viewpoint.

robby^5

Atheist and I love meat.

Ideally I'd like if all meat was produced humanely, it sucks that a lot of it isnt but then again the same can probably be said for a lot of the inanimate objects we all use which are produced at the expense of other humans (exploited 3rd world workers, countries and so on). I'd find it very tedious to apply morality to everything keeping me alive and well (clothes, shelter, food etc.) but if there is an option where I shop to buy eg. free range eggs then I'll buy that instead.

Livestock that we use for meat only exists because of human farming, which if done humanely offers the animal a good life whereby it's fed well and cared for. The trade off being it's mortality is already set in stone but I'd rather exist for a short comfortable time than to not exist at all.

I'd be sceptical that vegetarianism or vegan-ism would be a viable way to feed a large human population. I'd think it would be quite hard to achieve, making the switch and all.

iUseVi

Teferi wrote: »

Can I ask why OP wants to know if A+A's are veggies/vegans or not?

Sheer curiosity. I thought it might well be more prevalent in irreligious people. I may be wrong but it's turning out that it is so far, but we've only got a small sample space so nothing for sure.

Also, I've heard the "God gave animals to eat" thingy more times than I can count from my religious friends. I thought I could escape a whole gamut of faulty arguments.

Osgoodisgood

Lamb chops, nice and bloody for me thanks.
nyomyomyom

I'm lovin it

jape

I'm vegetarian, not really bothered with religion or anything of the sort so I wouldn't even class myself as athiest/agnostic.

But I'm just posting here because I wanted to say - I am always surprised at how many christians eat meat , when their "God" is one who preaches love and compassion for all living things. Slightly hypocritical there!

Galvasean

Atheist and omnivore, evolving into a carnivore (I'm a transitional form so I am).

I love the Jews. More bacon for me!

chozometroid

Christian here.....no meat except fish...no dairy or eggs, so basically vegan + fish.

Cossax

Atheist (raised Catholic) and omnivore.

I enjoy being an apex predator.
*insert witty t-shirt caption here involving climbing, food chains and tofu*

iUseVi

Thanks for all the replies so far - getting a nice sample space

robindch

ShooterSF wrote: »

if someone said me to me "I'm after cooking some dog would you like to try it?" I'd probably say yes for curiosity if nothing else.

Had a bowl of spicy Dog Soup in Kaesong in North Korea a few years back. Tasty but the Alsatian we were told that formed the backbone of the soup (literally) must have been around the same size as a chicken. Tasted like chicken too. One of the Mexicans on the tour spat his across the table after he asked why I was whistling "How much is that Doggy in the Window?" and making bad dog jokes, when we were eating what he'd thought was spicy duck soup.

ShooterSF wrote:

At the end of the day evolution has put our species on top of the food chain and I'm way too selfish to remove myself from it.

Quoth the Devil's Dictionary on 'Edible':

Ambrose Bierce wrote:

EDIBLE, adj. Good to eat, and wholesome to digest, as a worm to a toad, a toad to a snake, a snake to a pig, a pig to a man, and a man to a worm.

Tim Robbins

I eat meat but I think the ethical / moral correctness is to be vegitarianism. Singer articulates it the best and I can't see a way out of it.

I would strongly recommend watching this tete a tete between Singer and Dawkins.

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3951

Herbal Deity

Meat eater.

The populations of the animals which we eat would be much, much smaller if we didn't farm them.

If minimising all suffering were an unequivocal moral goal, we'd not only not eat meat, but we'd sterilise all animals so that they could not reproduce and thus there would exist no animals to endure suffering.

IMO the reasons people give for vegetarianism are all so arbitrary and fundamentally flawed and based purely on emotions. Fair enough, some people like the feel good factor and good for them, but personally, I couldn't take up something so hugely impacting without some kind of watertight reasoning and absolute goal.

Coriolanus

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Meat eater.

The populations of the animals which we eat would be much, much smaller if we didn't farm them.

If minimising all suffering were an unequivocal moral goal, we'd not only not eat meat, but we'd sterilise all animals so that they could not reproduce and thus there would exist no animals to endure suffering.

IMO the reasons people give for vegetarianism are all so arbitrary and fundamentally flawed and based purely on emotions. Fair enough, some people like the feel good factor and good for them, but personally, I couldn't take up something so hugely impacting without some kind of watertight reasoning and absolute goal.

Wasn't that the plot in Terminator, or some Asimov book? The machines were programmed to save humans from suffering etc...

Sam Vimes

Nevore wrote: »

Wasn't that the plot in Terminator, or some Asimov book? The machines were programmed to save humans from suffering etc...

I robot?

Coriolanus

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I robot?

Aha! Yeah, that's the one.

Herbal Deity

Never seen it, must put it on my "to watch" list.

Coriolanus

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Never seen it, must put it on my "to watch" list.

Read the book first tbh.

iUseVi

Nevore wrote: »

Read the book first tbh.

Yeah the book is better than the film IMHO.