Timer to switch on and off heating zones

fatboymsport

Hi all

I have Oil central heating and the house is split into 4 zones. when i turn on the heating I have to turn on which ever zone i want the heat on in. and then I have to turn it off after the heating goes off.

With the heating on a timer this means the circulation pumps are on all the time and I would like to put them on a timer.

I have had a google and found nothing anyone have a Idea what I am after.

Thanks
T.

meercat

Shouldn't be major problem. Are each zones controlled by pumps or mini valves? Are there thermostats to control each zone ? If so it's possible to replace them for a thermostat with integrated timer. Possibly your best option. Most heatmerchants stock them.

mukki

them units are valves, not pumps, you can leave them on 24x7 if you want, the don't wear out and all 4 would use less power then a cfl bulb.

Usually the electricians fit stats to switch the zones on or off, Thing is its a waste of oil heating upstair during the day, and heating down stairs at night.

you can replace the stats with time switches, but they cost e35 to e50 each, and you might need a sparks to fit them.

items

fatboymsport wrote: »

Hi all

I have Oil central heating and the house is split into 4 zones. when i turn on the heating I have to turn on which ever zone i want the heat on in. and then I have to turn it off after the heating goes off.

With the heating on a timer this means the circulation pumps are on all the time and I would like to put them on a timer.

I have had a google and found nothing anyone have a Idea what I am after.

Thanks
T.

If you have a circulating pump wired separate from boiler you can control the pump by use of a pipe stat, when water temp lowers to a set level, pipe stat knocks off the pump. Still not sure how your system is wired? Pumps should be wired to come on when boiler fires, not when timer is powered.

Might have a better solution if you can describe how your boiler, zones and controls work together.

fatboymsport

I have 5 circulating pumps 4 are for heating zones and the 5th is for the hot water.

the cylinder has a stat that controls the hot water pump.

I have the bog standard dial type timer for the boiler.

the 4 zones are controlled by 4 switches in the hot press.

there is 2 room stats in the house one is in the hall and it turns on and off the 3 down stairs zones. and there is one on the landing that does the upstairs zone.

the stats are not much use as there is not enough of them and the 2 I have are in the wrong places.

I have found this and I think it will do what I want.

http://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/horstmann-h47-series-channelplus-channel-p-296.html

I will look into pipe stats on the returns and see if i can control the heat that way.

Thanks
T.

meercat

Simplest job may be to replace switches with timers. Less complicated. Apt make timer that should fit existing cover plate.

meercat

meercat wrote: »

Simplest job may be to replace switches with timers. Less complicated. Apt make timer that should fit existing cover plate.

Meant to say you need permanent power supply at these switches for timer to work here. Make sure power is off before undertaking any work.

items

fatboymsport wrote: »

I have 5 circulating pumps 4 are for heating zones and the 5th is for the hot water.

the cylinder has a stat that controls the hot water pump.

I have the bog standard dial type timer for the boiler.

the 4 zones are controlled by 4 switches in the hot press.

there is 2 room stats in the house one is in the hall and it turns on and off the 3 down stairs zones. and there is one on the landing that does the upstairs zone.

the stats are not much use as there is not enough of them and the 2 I have are in the wrong places.

I have found this and I think it will do what I want.

http://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/horstmann-h47-series-channelplus-channel-p-296.html

I will look into pipe stats on the returns and see if i can control the heat that way.

Thanks
T.

Sounds like a system link to me. somewhere you might have a green heating manifold with individual circulation pumps for each zone. If it is, their is some special wiring kits avail for system link. Special PCB circuit board which relate to time clocks with built in thermostats. Hot water is controlled by cylinder thermostat.

If im right, look up system link wiring kits, if not you have a strange set up and your defo going to have to install some pipe stats if pumps are powered separate than boiler.

Forgot to mention, if you do have a system link, let me know, I've fitted a few system links with complete control kits so can describe whats best to look for. Your on the right track by picking up some multi channel time clocks, you might also need to include a new relay, bigger central control relay to allow for more time clocks.

davelerave

have you any 'mvs' or is just 'pumps only'.
i'd probably look at adding a few wireless room stats and a 'logic strip'( to switch boiler) as well as the 4-channel timer for heating and an apt timer /cylinder stat or whatever for hot water.

Avns1s

fatboymsport wrote: »

Hi all

I have Oil central heating and the house is split into 4 zones. when i turn on the heating I have to turn on which ever zone i want the heat on in. and then I have to turn it off after the heating goes off.

With the heating on a timer this means the circulation pumps are on all the time and I would like to put them on a timer.

I have had a google and found nothing anyone have a Idea what I am after.

Thanks
T.

I presume when you have 4 zones and 4 pumps, that you also have 4 motorised valves???

If you do you can wire the 4 channel timer to the motorised valves. The motorised valves in turn, normally have a relay, i.e. there is a connection for a live feed, and when the valve is activated by your timer (which should also be wired to the respective circulating pump) and the motorised valve opens, it controls the boiler.

In simple terms, a single channel on your timer brings on your pump and the motorised valve, which in turns brings on your boiler. The pumps and the valves on the other zones are not affected by bringing on a particular zone.

You would really need to get an electrician to set this up for you unless you are really competent but it can be done! I probably have made a poor job of explaining it, it's quite simple really!

davelerave

i think prob. the loops are open(no mvs) if they're all pumped individually so you'd need the logic strip.hopefully he can confirm
timer channel /stat/pump for each zone and the logic strip to switch boiler( i think)

fatboymsport

Hi thanks for all the replys its starting to get a bit over my head. My Dad did the plumbing but i know nothing about plumbing.

It is a system link manifold that i have there is 4 pumps for each zone.

there is no motorised valves in the system.

I checked the spec of the Horstmann H47 XL and it can switch 1amp. the Grundfos pumps are only rated at .6 of a amp so the timer shoud be able to switch them direct. But i would like the option of stats to turn the whole system off when it gets up to temp as currently I feel the systems is very wasteful as i just leave it all on for hours at a time.

Next problem is the Heating timer is in the utility room and all the pumps and wiring in in the hotpress.

Thanks again for all the replys I hope i am making sence in my replys


Thanks
T.

items

You've got a great set up their, just not wired right. System links work great, never have to vent a rad after one is installed. No better way to isolate and separate zones with little to no unwanted heat transfer.

Getting late now, I'll write up some info on how to wire a system link some time tomorrow if I can.

You don't need motorized valves, thats a separate system.

All you need is multi channel clocks with inbuilt thermostats along with a system link relay depending on how many zones you want, its simple enough, only sounds confusing due to a mix of advice based on different heating systems with different controls.

fatboymsport

Thanks for your help there is no rush for a reply it will be after the holidays before i can look into getting it all sorted.

glad you think its a good system I must post a picture as I think it looks like part of the space station. and was worried that it might have been overkill for a 5 bed dormer bungalow.

I'm lucky i got it all at cost price and labour Free so I dont mind having to sort some stuff out.

Thanks
T.

items wrote: »

You've got a great set up their, just not wired right. System links work great, never have to vent a rad after one is installed. No better way to isolate and separate zones with little to no unwanted heat transfer.

Getting late now, I'll write up some info on how to wire a system link some time tomorrow if I can.

You don't need motorized valves, thats a separate system.

All you need is multi channel clocks with inbuilt thermostats along with a system link relay depending on how many zones you want, its simple enough, only sounds confusing due to a mix of advice based on different heating systems with different controls.

browner85

is it a new enough system??

davelerave

Don't think there's anything out of ordinary for systemlink.
Afaik each zone is pumped individually(no mvs)
Timer channel/stat/pump for zones and logic strip for boiler afaik(and prob over-run pump adjacent to boiler)
You can also use a controller (wiring centre)to drive pumps and switch boiler .
Just finished a job with 'systemlink' and ufh/rads/hot water.Fairly simple,once you're familiar with the systems barely need to look at the schematics.

items

fatboymsport wrote: »

Thanks for your help there is no rush for a reply it will be after the holidays before i can look into getting it all sorted.

glad you think its a good system I must post a picture as I think it looks like part of the space station. and was worried that it might have been overkill for a 5 bed dormer bungalow.

I'm lucky i got it all at cost price and labour Free so I dont mind having to sort some stuff out.

Thanks
T.

Good man, its not overkill at all, it workouts better in the long run. Pumps are not working as hard so they last much longer, each circuit/zone has its dedicated pump so system heats up real quick, a lot quicker than standard systems.

Picture of the manifold might be handy before a plan for wiring can be worked out.

Depending on where the manifold is located, if its far from the boiler, one of those pumps might only serve as a header pump, circulating only between boiler and manifold.

So might be 2 circulation pumps for header and hot water and the other 3 for zoned heating.

Once you can figure out what pump is doing what, its fairly handy to set your self up with better control.

fatboymsport

the House is only finished 18 months so its newish.

and the 4 pump are for the 4 zones there is a 5th pump for hot water. I have them marked so I know which is which. there is another pump out in the boiler as its a fair run from the boiler to the hot press.
There is a stat on the cylinder which is a 300ltr Stainless Steel job. and it works ok so i dont need to change anything on it.

The whole system is pressurised if that makes any difference I have a hugh Grungfos 3 bar pump in the hot press as well.

I will take a photo later and post it.

Thanks
T.

items

fatboymsport wrote: »

the House is only finished 18 months so its newish.

and the 4 pump are for the 4 zones there is a 5th pump for hot water. I have them marked so I know which is which. there is another pump out in the boiler as its a fair run from the boiler to the hot press.
There is a stat on the cylinder which is a 300ltr Stainless Steel job. and it works ok so i dont need to change anything on it.

The whole system is pressurised if that makes any difference I have a hugh Grungfos 3 bar pump in the hot press as well.

I will take a photo later and post it.

Thanks
T.

A lot of new Gas boilers require a min of 1 bar water pressure in system to work, reason is its overall better, system runs better and its more efficient.

Same with your plumbing, a pressurized water supply is less prone to air locks, fills toilets quicker and so on, hot water is heated more efficient under pressure.

I take it the manifold is in hot press, a good bit away from boiler so you've got a 6h pump for circulating boiler to manifold.

Few pictures of manifold is all thats needed now, just to be sure about the rest, but sounds of it, your already sure which pumps do what so if your confidant enough, might not need pictures.

fatboymsport

Sorry about the mess I have a long list of job to do before I get near to finishing off the hot press.

Click on the pics to see them bigger.













Hope these are clear enough

Thanks
T.

items

Pictures are grand, hows is the cylinder working, I mean is cylinder heating water well enough?

In picture circulation pump to cylinder is split serving cylinder in two places, their only seems to be one return. Could possibly have a unique coil, as long as its working fine, should'nt be an issue. Everything else so far seems to be in order from what I can see.

Top of cylinder should have a T&P release valve, make sure you have one. I see a pressure release mid way down so you do have some form of safety connected to cylinder.

When you turn on boiler, the only way to activate zones is by those switches in hot press?

fatboymsport what you have there is a accident waiting to happen(I'm full of good news), you must have a zone valve/2port motorized valve with spring return on the flow to the cylinder controlled by the cylinder stat so that when the cylinder achieves temperature no heat can get to it, a pump is not acceptable, the 6 bar safety valve(in line with pump) terminates in mid air, it must be plumbed via a tundish and terminate in a safe place, the 7 bar/98c T/P safety valve must be fitted to a tundish and follow installation guidelines for sizing a discharge pipe so that when it opens the water/heat terminates in a safe place and does no damage to you or yours, as it stands any damage due to safety valves blowing you aren't covered by house insurance or manufactures warranty as it's not fitted in a safe way or to manufactures instructions, get hold of the fitting instructions and fitted it asper the book, ring the manufactures for advice and send them the installation pics for clarification, to put things in to prospective think of 300 liters of very hot water blowing out of the blow off at 3bar and if you're away for a week think of that water flowing at 3 bar till you get home, as i posted it's in the book and it comes with pictures so there is no reason for the installers to fit the cylinder like this, they haven't even plumbed the heating system blow off DOH... Gary.

items

Wont be on for next few days, I'll list out how last system link was wired fairly basic for moment, its only got 3 zones but same idea for any amount of zones.

Gas Boiler (pump built in) power by fused supply wired directly into a "minilex" wiring center. Its just a small PCB which acts as control, relay etc always powered.

Minilex is split up for control of individual zones, in this case 3.

First is hot water zone, wired into minilex is hot water circulation pump and hot water thermostat. No time clock is required, when temp drops to set level, cylinder stat will call boiler to come on and off along with circulation pump via minilex.

Next is heating zone, say downstairs heating. Downstairs heating is controled by a standard single channel time clock with built in thermostat. Simple really again time clock will call pump or boiler to come on or off through miniliex.

Next is upstairs heating and its just same as above.

On your system you have a few options, you could either use multi channel time clocks with built in thermostats to control 2 or 3 pumps serving one area of the house. Or you could have a single channel clock like above but wire pumps to come on combined through minilex as their is provisions for doing so.

Try to locate stats in areas where you spend most time, having stats in halls, landing etc is not great as far as I'm concerned. It's far better to have stats in say bedrooms or living rooms on walls away from opening doors and windows.

You mention something about a separate time clock in utility room, you should be able to remove that clock altogether. If you find the right board, something like a minilex your boiler will be constantly powered ready to come on via minilex. All clocks with thermostats and cylinder stat call boiler to either come on, or shut off pumps but maintain boiler on to serve other areas.

Hope you can make some sense of it all, let me know if you've any other questions.

davelerave

davelerave wrote: »

Curious about that MV for cylinder.It's not on the systemlink electrical
schematic i have.

In the UK you have to sit a two day safety course called G3 before you can look at a cylinder and every installation is inspected by the local building inspector to make sure it conforms to the safety requirements, thats how serious unvented cylinder are taken for safety across the water, in Ireland there are no regs and i have yet to see a unvented cylinder fitted to a G3 safety standard in Ireland, the reason it's important to understand the G3 requirements is the manufactures instructions will mirror the G3 regs, so if a cylinder is fitted in the way this one is then it doesn't meet the manufactures instructions effecting the warranty, if that cylinder fails the manufactures may deliver a new cylinder but they won't fit it because they would then be responsible for any future damage caused by the installation errors as they are now the installers, that's what happens with my cylinders. The reason pumps are unacceptable is the regs look for the spring return of the two port to stop the movement of heat to the cylinder, also for wiring system links you need to go with the manufactures instructions first and system link second, i have seen lots of instillation wired wrong because the system link instruction have not taken into account the requirements of the boiler/cylinder etc.. bet your glad you asked now:D, Gary.

davelerave

sorry gary i deleted that query.i'm only on the 'electrical side' but i'll pass on the info to the designer or plumber.
i take your point regarding cylinder (and boiler) and integrating them safely .

HI Dave, my advise to you would be to check installation instructions on anything you install on heating systems, I'm not trying to tell you how to suck eggs:D, but as a competent person you can't say you didn't know, with RGII inspectors going around they can go after you just as quick as the installer, i know of sites where the sparks has had to at a cost himself rewire heating systems because the boiler isolation switch was not in arms length of the boiler, i kid you not, and if you wire a unvented cylinder and someone gets hurt or serious damage is caused because the system controls are wrong then you are just as liable as a competent sparks as the installer is, times are a changing and you have to protect yourself from when things get to the he said she said stage, so if the plumber or designer tell you to go forth and multiply when you give them the heads up then get it in writing then your covered, Gary.

Sorry OP for going of topic:o.

davelerave

True.i'd imagine my '%' liability for that would be low but I'll try to clarify the situation.

I'm just giving you the heads up, to give you a example of what I'm talking about a site 150 boilers, all the boilers had no earth and the earth wire was being used as a switch live, RGII would be all over that even though the sparks isn't RGII. I have worked trough the time Corgi started out and it was a nightmare, it's not your opinion or mine that counts it's the man standing in front of the installation and interpreting the regs to suit his argument and i have found the fella with the stern look and the clip board who keeps tutting is only a inspector because he was crap on the tools, Gary.

davelerave

agreed

items

Noticed a few things with safetys, hot water etc. I don't think the chap can do plumbing, best sort out wiring first.

Gary, system link boxes are designed in a way where there is no transfer of heat while circulation pump is not running. The manifold has all kinds of baffles etc. I've fitted a few of these with just cylinder stat as hot water control, no motorized valves, as per system link instructions.

The cylinder could be from heat merchants, I think its Italian, amazing the amount of times I see those cylinders are fitted with no tun dish.

The zone valve is a G3 British safety requirement, G3 is a safety standard which cylinder manufactures have adapted as their own installation requirements, as far as i know only a two port spring return motorized valve meets the standard set for safety, without it fitted a installation will not meet manufactures requirements for their product, when it comes to system design manufactures instructions for a individual product take president over system link instructions, system link have only written general guidelines and do not know what products you are fitting and what their requirements are, manufactures instructions are more powerful than is813, i work for a cylinder manufacture and two ports must be fitted asper de manual, Gary.

items

This is the problem here, no regulations. Do you go by instruction given by manufactures or go by British regs. If you don't install by manufacture instruction they wont look at installation should something go wrong under guarantee.

All we have here is Co Council water division and Bord Gas. Co Council rep will check out installation before connecting new water main, Bord Gas rep will check out installation before making supply available.

Oil and LPG pretty much do anything you want.

With system link, 2 I can think of, working off new gas meter fitted before RGI. No issues at all.

Has their been a change since RGI?

davelerave

items wrote: »

Noticed a few things with safetys, hot water etc. I don't think the chap can do plumbing, best sort out wiring first.

Gary, system link boxes are designed in a way where there is no transfer of heat while circulation pump is not running. The manifold has all kinds of baffles etc. I've fitted a few of these with just cylinder stat as hot water control, no motorized valves, as per system link instructions.

The cylinder could be from heat merchants, I think its Italian, amazing the amount of times I see those cylinders are fitted with no tun dish.

That's what i was thinking.The zone pump is off so no heat transfer.Unlike a system with common pump where you'd need to close off the loop.I assume there's no safety aspect to it??

items

items wrote: »

If you don't install by manufacture instruction they wont look at installation should something go wrong under guarantee.

Thats my day job:D

There are no regs for unvented cylinders worth talking about, forget about the UK regs as manufactures regs are exactly the same, the only time it's an issue is if things have gone pear shaped and there is a investigation into the reason for the damage or injury(it happens), the people writing the reports can be anybody from the insures to health and safety (or me), when they look at a instillation it's the manufactures manual they will have in the hand, so opinions don't come in to it, it's what the man holding the manual interprets and he'll be looking for that valve as the manual says it must be fitted, if a installation meets what the makers are asking you will never have a issue and your protected from any fallout, but if you fit a product outside of the requirements then it's on you(potentially), no zone valves effect the warranty with my cylinders, the manufactures instructions trump anything else, i get problems with system links where the boiler will run 24/7 because the wiring diagram for the system link didn't show what the boiler needed to work properly, I'll do my "not want to suck eggs" bit:) and ask why they didn't read the book with the pictures that came with the boiler and they blame the plumber for not Fing telling them, which i find funny as plumbers tend to get the shakes if you hand them a 3 amp fuse. I love the new gas regs as i can report fruit loops a lot easier, Gary.

items

So if cylinder instructions call for the use of MV, but system link calls for only thermostat, who wins? The whole idea behind system link is to take out use of MV's, installing MV's along with system link is like doing same job twice if you get me. Strange one alright.

Cylinder in picture looks familiar, heat merchants supply a cylinder just like that one. All instructions in Italian, no English. A lot of these un vented cylinders come from the other side of the world, believe it or not, safety kit is sold separate in some cases, suppliers make safety kit out to be an "extra". I'd say that is why tun dish, T&P appear missing in above pictures.

Un vented cylinders are fairly new here, good few plumbers out there find them selves fitting one for first time, some don't seem to know about safety kit, then its easy to see why, supplier not including safety kit along with installation manual in foreign language.

If its a retro fit, anything goes.

items

items wrote: »

So if cylinder instructions call for the use of MV, but system link calls for only thermostat, who wins?

The instructions manual for a system link is general, the instruction manual for a cylinder is specific, i would advise you go with specific instruction because the system link stuff may not cover what the manufactures of the cylinder are telling you must be fitted if you are to use their cylinder, if you don't comply with the fitting requirements then thats on you,(i'm sounding more & more like a boiler policeman:eek:) the installation requirements for all the cylinders i have come in to contact with require that safety two port to be fitted and i am happy to be proved wrong:)

items wrote: »

The whole idea behind system link is to take out use of MV's, installing MV's along with system link is like doing same job twice if you get me. Strange one alright. .

I am not saying i agree with the requirement but it's a installation requirement non the less.

items wrote: »

Cylinder in picture looks familiar, heat merchants supply a cylinder just like that one. All instructions in Italian, no English. A lot of these un vented cylinders come from the other side of the world, believe it or not, safety kit is sold separate in some cases, suppliers make safety kit out to be an "extra"..

If the instructions are not asking you to fit the cylinder in a certain manor then you have no problem.

items wrote: »

Un vented cylinders are fairly new here, good few plumbers out there find them selves fitting one for first time, some don't seem to know about safety kit, then its easy to see why, supplier not including safety kit along with installation manual in foreign language..

Unvented cylinders have been Ireland a long time, it just depends where you are, if a installer/plumber is fitting unvented cylinders then they would be deemed as a competent person and as such should understand the installation/safety requirements for a unvented cylinder or they shouldn't be doing it, in all fairness it ain't rocket science(I'm not including the two port, only nerds like me would get that one)

items wrote: »

If its a retro fit, anything goes.

If you fit a replacement unvented cylinder and there is damage due to a installation error you missed, your insurance would be paying out, because as a competent installer you should have spotted the defect.:D Gary

davelerave

i thought you were a cylinder policeman:D

items

gary71 wrote: »

The instructions manual for a system link is general, the instruction manual for a cylinder is specific, i would advise you go with specific instruction because the system link stuff may not cover what the manufactures of the cylinder are telling you must be fitted if you are to use their cylinder, if you don't comply with the fitting requirements then thats on you,(i'm sounding more & more like a boiler policeman:eek:) the installation requirements for all the cylinders i have come in to contact with require that safety two port to be fitted and i am happy to be proved wrong:)



I am not saying i agree with the requirement but it's a installation requirement non the less.



If the instructions are not asking you to fit the cylinder in a certain manor then you have no problem.



Unvented cylinders have been Ireland a long time, it just depends where you are, if a installer/plumber is fitting unvented cylinders then they would be deemed as a competent person and as such should understand the installation/safety requirements for a unvented cylinder or they shouldn't be doing it, in all fairness it ain't rocket science(I'm not including the two port, only nerds like me would get that one)



If you fit a replacement unvented cylinder and there is damage due to a installation error you missed, your insurance would be paying out, because as a competent installer you should have spotted the defect.:D Gary

Nice one cheers. Always seems to be confusion over different systems from gravity to pressurized and so on between different manufactures. A system fitted covering all safety aspects and regs, takes more time and costs more than a system with corners cut, trouble is, in Ireland it's very easy to install a system with corners cut. The only time a difference is noticed is when its too late. Most homeowners find it hard to understand heating systems so they don't know if systems are being fitted by regs, would be great to see an overall improvement, just like gas safety has improved.

davelerave

davelerave wrote: »

i thought you were a cylinder policeman:D

With all the cowboys i deal with, i see myself more as sheriff:cool:, ye ha..........