A Christmas Present for Senior Civil Servants

Flamed Diving

A post by Karl Whelan:

On budget day, the Minister for Finance announced that civil servants earning between €165,000 and €200,000 would take pay cuts of 12% while those earning over €200,000 would take pay cuts of 15%. Yesterday, with the public focusing on their pre-Christmas preparations, the government announced that this would not be happening after all.

These pay cuts have been rolled back for two reasons. First, the government announced that it was going to take into account the elimination of “performance-related awards” which had averaged ten percent of their salary. As a result it reduced the new pay cuts for some civil service grades to reflect the loss of this ten percent.

Second, it was decided that the differential rates of adjustment, with higher cuts for those over €200,000 would introduce anomalies in which there would be overlaps such that those on higher points in lower scales would have better salaries than those on lower points of a higher scale...

More.


Sigh...

nesf

Christ.

ixoy

It's even worse if you read the full article. I'm sure we'll be told shortly though that these senior civil servants didn't cause the mess in the finances of the country whose civilians they serve.

Stark

Depressing but not surprising. My dad who works in UCC told me that the senior academic staff got a 10% pay rise last April to compensate for the pension levy.

dudara

Crazy - bonuses are discretionary surely. Pay cuts happen independently of bonuses - or at least they do in any correctly run business.

Why do they bother calling them bonuses at all - for these guys, they're a gauranteed form of income.

This little nation of ours is never going to fix itself if this kind of stuff keeps happening. We truly are a banana republic.

ParkRunner

It's incredible reading this but not surprising! By the justification they are using the 3.5% Towards 2016 overdue payrise therefore should be 'taken into account' for the lower paid civil servants and offset against the impending reductions in pay! The gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow!

PeakOutput

that is ridicolous

segadreamcast

Oh dear. Further undermining the idea that 'we're all feeling the pain'.

I presume social welfare cuts will now be rolled back, given they also lost their Christmas bonus which, as Karl points out, is already the equivalent of a 2% cut.

To The North

this is disgraceful, it just adds fuel to the fire of the public/private debates that are raging at the moment. how can they justify it? as a public servant i just feel ashamed of stuff like this

i think we should get on to our respective TDs (and unions maybe? dunno if that's a good idea) and make our complaints heard. perhaps they were hoping that announcing this over christmas would mean people were distracted and wouldn't pay too much attention to it. we shouldn't allow them to get away without at least voicing our disgust.

Sarn

Ok, where's my pitchfork. I guess the fact that announcing it now had nothing to do with the limited news coverage at the moment. Good to see the pain is being shared. :rolleyes:

Ostrom

God bless the abuse of averages

nesf

Stark wrote: »

Depressing but not surprising. My dad who works in UCC told me that the senior academic staff got a 10% pay rise last April to compensate for the pension levy.

Senior Lecturers didn't and they're among the most senior.

Stark

Sorry, small exaggeration. Was an 8% payrise: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/colleges-at-war-over-8pc-pay-rise-for-senior-staff-1657587.html , http://www.independent.ie/national-news/colleges-at-war-over-8pc-pay-rise-for-senior-staff-1657587.html. Was given to professors.

terenc

Am I SURPRISED am i F### anything goes with this government. We have some very angry people in this country at the moment and if they want civil unrest they are going the right way about it.

Maserati23

Did any civil servant earning between 150.000 and 250.000 "EVER" post on Boards.ie, I dont think so.

It gets my goat, they are perusing the forum and laughing at the general public, that frequent this forum.

If I see a new Merc now I just assume its a civil servant or banker, not a person that has just got his retirement money.

With a Merc you need it to be properly serviced etc. which makes it unaffordable or a waste of money for the ordinary Joe Soap.

I am sorry but thats the way I think now, I am not gloating at their salary just really really vexed that they continue on with massive salaries and dont have to justify to anybody have to explain as to why they recieve such generous sums an allowances
Nothing will change my mind now, Top civil servants go hand in hand with the TD's. and Td's go hand in hand with the bankers.

The above quangos will never be broken, too much history there.

God help us all.


I am a pessamist yes, a Joe Soap also. This situation in Ireland will not be rectified for many many years.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes. Just pissed off. Currently on disability and feeling sorry for myself, but mostly feeling sorry for my kids growing up in this MAFIA INVESTED SOCIETY>.

Rant over

Good Luck all.

deise blue

Excellent news.
Hopefully this dithering by the Government will encourage the unions in their bid to mitigate the recent budgetary pay cuts by way of co-ordinated industrial action early next year.

nice_guy80

the rest of the public sector workers will not be happy with this

they just turn up to work everyday and the job to best of abilities. no sign of a bonus system

the people at the top in every area of this country are laughing at the rest of us

• government
• civil servants
• private companies
• semi states
• universities
• banks

CFlower

The beneficiaries of this include Senior Civil Servants in the Department of Finance who hand in hand with Lenihan jumped us off the cliff last October to protect the bankers and the small circle of big borrowers.

Loyalty sometimes needs to be bought, and a Government facing extreme and unprecedented circumstances needs the unquestioning loyalty of these civil servants.

Would a back down to the Gardaí come as any surprise ?

dudara

Once again, it is a typical Irish case of the auld fellas sticking together and to hell with the rest of the country.

There is a cabal of people in this country - politicians, bankers, senior civil servants and other who have driven this country to the edge - and they're still running the show.

Average public sector workers will still feel the pain - and will be reminded on the daily basis by looking at their senior bosses that pay cuts for all doesn't really mean pay cuts for all.

gerry28

To The North wrote: »

this is disgraceful, it just adds fuel to the fire of the public/private debates that are raging at the moment. how can they justify it? as a public servant i just feel ashamed of stuff like this

i think we should get on to our respective TDs (and unions maybe? dunno if that's a good idea) and make our complaints heard. perhaps they were hoping that announcing this over christmas would mean people were distracted and wouldn't pay too much attention to it. we shouldn't allow them to get away without at least voicing our disgust.

Don't feel ashamed to the north unless you are one of the higher paid public servants or a member of the government.

I'm one of the lower paid public servants on 28K and my 5% paycut is not going to be rolled back.

Its becoming clearer and clearer with each passing month that its the elites that are being taken care of... yes there is a divide in irish society but its the well off classes vs the ordinary worker.

exasperation... but what can you do - vote FF out at the next election and banish them for decades.

CFlower

gerry28 wrote: »

Don't feel ashamed to the north unless you are one of the higher paid public servants or a member of the government.

I'm one of the lower paid public servants on 28K and my 5% paycut is not going to be rolled back.

Its becoming clearer and clearer with each passing month that its the elites that are being taken care of... yes there is a divide in irish society but its the well off classes vs the ordinary worker.

exasperation... but what can you do - vote FF out at the next election and banish them for decades.

Indeed Gerry28 - but finding a serious alternative Government won't be easy. It's hard to see anyone decent, sane and with the stomach to take on the appalling disaster that any Opposition would find if they took office.

Fine Gael would hardly be there to look after the ordinary worker, any more than Fianna Fail.

BroomBurner

CFlower wrote: »

Indeed Gerry28 - but finding a serious alternative Government won't be easy. It's hard to see anyone decent, sane and with the stomach to take on the appalling disaster that any Opposition would find if they took office.

Fine Gael would hardly be there to look after the ordinary worker, any more than Fianna Fail.

Fine Gael would be a disaster for the public sector. There are no viable alternatives for government in Ireland, even our trade unions are useless.

I am maddened at the roll back. I was finally able to feel that while my pay has been decimated over the last 18 months, finally those at the very top will have their salary come down to a realistic level. But no. Not to be. :mad:

ninty9er

nice_guy80 wrote: »

the people at the top in every area of this country are laughing at the rest of us

• universities

Enlighten me please!

Sandvich

So in other words, the public servants earning 30,000 a year take the brunt of it but not the feckers getting more money than they realistically need. Feckers.

nice_guy80

ninty9er wrote: »

Enlighten me please!

top university people have in some cases got pay rises in the last year. as a reward for their cutting of other people's pay to cut costs

ninty9er

nice_guy80 wrote: »

top university people have in some cases got pay rises in the last year. as a reward for their cutting of other people's pay to cut costs

"In some cases"??

The bullet point "universities" represents over 20,000 people.

Care to rephrase?

nice_guy80

ninty9er wrote: »

"In some cases"??

The bullet point "universities" represents over 20,000 people.

Care to rephrase?

nope. i said the top people working in those areas. look at my original post.

ninty9er

nice_guy80 wrote: »

nope. i said the top people working in those areas. look at my original post.

My apologies, I know that extra pay cuts have been the staple in a particular case, so that is why I took issue, but in that case there has also been a reduction in wages at the top.

Gumbo

makes me sick to hear this!

so its the normal people earning 30k with a partner at home out of work and still trying to pay off a mortgage that gets the cuts :mad:

ninty9er

kceire wrote: »

makes me sick to hear this!

so its the normal people earning 30k with a partner at home out of work and still trying to pay off a mortgage that gets the cuts :mad:

This is not about mortgages or people out of work.

It's a thread about senior civil servants' pay. Start another thread if you want, one called "I'm a public sector worker and want to rant" would probably get plenty of replies.

CFlower

ninty9er wrote: »

This is not about mortgages or people out of work.

It's a thread about senior civil servants' pay. Start another thread if you want, one called "I'm a public sector worker and want to rant" would probably get plenty of replies.

This is about an exception being made of the top earning civil servants.

I think the ranter is entitled to rant.

jimmycrackcorm

There are two points to consider with this decision:
1) Their bonus is gone and well done for that too as there was probably no means of measuring performance anyway; combine that with the announced cuts and the overall cut would have been well out of proportion with the rest of the PS.

2) Aren't these guys the very civil servants who are coming up with the cuts and their implementation plans - if so then they are doing a great job in saving us loads of money.....;)

Gumbo

ninty9er wrote: »

This is not about mortgages or people out of work.

It's a thread about senior civil servants' pay. Start another thread if you want, one called "I'm a public sector worker and want to rant" would probably get plenty of replies.

and what exactly dont you understand about my post? im angry that everybody has taken paycuts except the high ranking civil servants, isint that what this thread is about??????????

you should start your own thread where you can pretend to be on a high horse and try talk down to people because acting like a keyboard warrior is kinda pathetic :rolleyes:

AlekSmart

Kceire`s point is....

I`m angry that everybody has taken paycuts except the high ranking civil servants, isint that what this thread is about

However it`s equally valid to say that nobody has "Taken" the pay cuts,but rather they have had these cuts IMPOSED upon them.

That,of itself,is not a problem except when we see the very Architects of the cuts then moving to seriously minimise the effects of the cuts upon themselves.

It is not the average Clerical Officer Grade 2 that the Minister For Finance consults with when formulating his policy,but rather more certainly it will be the Departmental Secretaries General and Assistant Secretaries who will "inform and guide" the Minister in his decisions and actions.

This particular little stunt has all the fingerprints of a handful of "usual,long serving suspects" all over it and easily equals anything that the "Bankers" have managed to pull off....and it ain`t over yet !

terenc

ninty9er wrote: »

This is not about mortgages or people out of work.

It's a thread about senior civil servants' pay. Start another thread if you want, one called "I'm a public sector worker and want to rant" would probably get plenty of replies.

Get off your horse and smell the grass that is if the horse dont crap on you when your smelling the grass. Of course its about people who have families to support and are now unemployed and worked to keep these people in employment. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

ninty9er

Irrespective, these "senior civil servants and public service workers" will see 5 figure cuts to their P60 next year, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

terenc

ninty9er wrote: »

Irrespective, these "senior civil servants and public service workers" will see 5 figure cuts to their P60 next year, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Well if you dont know what all the fuss is about and your an intelligent person what hope for the rest of us. Whats a P60:rolleyes::rolleyes:

ghost_ie

Nurses, firemen and ambulance men take the cuts. The higher civil servants don't. Will there be an outcry about it? No. Says a lot about the people we value in our society, doesn't it?

peasant

ninty9er wrote: »

Irrespective, these "senior civil servants and public service workers" will see 5 figure cuts to their P60 next year, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

that's what the fuss is about:

On budget day, the Minister for Finance announced that civil servants earning between €165,000 and €200,000 would take pay cuts of 12% while those earning over €200,000 would take pay cuts of 15%

We were lied to, plain and simple

ninty9er

peasant wrote: »

that's what the fuss is about:


We were lied to, plain and simple

Those whose P60 would have read €195k this year will read €168k for 2010. That is a permanent measure. How is it not a cut?

peasant

ninty9er wrote: »

How is it not a cut?

It is not the cut that was announced in the budget.

You, as a true blooded FF-ler wouldn't understand this, but leadership is not about announcing one thing to appease the masses (and pretend that you're sharing the burden) and then reversing it on the sly on Chritmas Eve so nobody notices.

That's treachery ..but in your party leadership and treachery are all one and the same anyway.

And now please, just stop defending the indefensible. We have been lied to (again) and that's that.

nice_guy80

peasant wrote: »

It is not the cut that was announced in the budget.

You, as a true blooded FF-ler wouldn't understand this, but leadership is not about announcing one thing to appease the masses (and pretend that you're sharing the burden) and then reversing it on the sly on Chritmas Eve so nobody notices.

That's treachery ..but in your party leadership and treachery are all one and the same anyway.

And now please, just stop defending the indefensible. We have been lied to (again) and that's that.

thats how most things work with this goverment. announce one thing with the media soundbite accompanying it
then implement another policy that they hope nobody will notice
most glaringly obvious in areas like education

ninty9er

I'm in disbelief here. The article was quite clear. There are still cuts, but now the scrapping of "bonuses" will be considered part of them. I'd consider it a cut if I wasn't getting a bonus, the same as those who got one for years for sitting on their arse did.

TCP/IP_King

terenc wrote: »

Am I SURPRISED am i F### anything goes with this government. We have some very angry people in this country at the moment and if they want civil unrest they are going the right way about it.

The French Revolution resulted from two state crises which emerged during the 1750s – 80s, one constitutional and one financial, with the latter providing a 'tipping point' in 1788/9, when desperate action by government ministers backfired and unleashed a revolution against the 'Old Regime'. In addition to these there was the growth of the bourgeoisie, a social order whose new wealth, power and opinions undermined the older feudal social system of France.

peasant

ninty9er wrote: »

I'm in disbelief here.

Shouldn't you be at a Bertie book signing somewhere?

jimmycrackcorm

ninty9er wrote: »

I'm in disbelief here. The article was quite clear. There are still cuts, but now the scrapping of "bonuses" will be considered part of them. I'd consider it a cut if I wasn't getting a bonus, the same as those who got one for years for sitting on their arse did.

The bonuses were basically part of normal salary.

Stark

ninty9er wrote: »

Those whose P60 would have read €195k this year will read €168k for 2010. That is a permanent measure. How is it not a cut?

Scrapping of a bonus is not a "permanent measure". It will be introduced as soon as the economy picks up again, whereas everyone else will have had a permanent cut. Scrapping a bonus also doesn't affect their pension whereas the pay cuts for other public servants will affect their pension.

It would have been much fairer to leave the bonus and implement a straight pay cut.

Arathorn

Also people on social welfare lost their Christmas bonus but this isn't taken into account for their cuts.

picpress

Stark wrote: »

Scrapping of a bonus is not a "permanent measure". It will be introduced as soon as the economy picks up again, whereas everyone else will have had a permanent cut. Scrapping a bonus also doesn't affect their pension whereas the pay cuts for other public servants will affect their pension.

It would have been much fairer to leave the bonus and implement a straight pay cut.

So it appears now that proposed 1.3bn euro pay savings will now not be met nor will be permanent perhaps the government would have been wiser not to flip flop on the 12 days leave option. After all was the reason it was rejected was that it did not meet the savings required or it was not permanent!! Now everybody has been made mugs of.

gerry28

So now the high paid senior public servants will be taking a 1.8% pay cut and the higher again will take a 4% paycut... whereas someone on 25K or 30K will take a 5% cut(the 10% bonus is not a pay cut).

Only some should be getting the bonus each year anyway. Unless of course they are all really really great at their jobs and deserve the bonus every year :rolleyes: (i' call that just doing your job well).

We are all mugs in this country - they will get away with it just like they always do.
'The fightin irish' my aras... 'the roll over and take what your givin irish' would be more accurate.

BroomBurner

Sorry, but since when is a bonus classed as part of a salary? The clue is in the title, it's a bonus. It can either be paid, or not paid. It is not salary.

For a start, were they receiving these bonuses based on actual performance? Judging by the amount of expenditure going on over the last few years, unchecked, I would say no. It was about time these bonuses were stopped.

Secondly, their salaries should have been cut as per the budget read out. Was there anything else rolled back?

If these people assumed their bonus was something entitled to them, or owed to them, then more fool them. It wasn't. A paycut is just that, a PAYcut, a cut to your salary.