No ignition on Central Heating System

evilivor

Morning,

In my parent's house and their, up to this morning perfectly functioning, central heating ain't working today.

I'm not expert but it seems that the boiler is the problem - doesn't appear to be firing up at all. I've checked fuses and power leads all seem to be fine. Any ideas: it's a Firebird Max.

Ta in advance.

Avns1s

I take it there is no response from it at all?

Is there a small black cover on the thermostat about the diameter of a 10c coin??

If so, unscrew it and push in the little pin. Replace the cover.

Does it fire up now?

meercat

Is the red light on the burner on. If so press it. Make sure all thermostats in house are turned on. Is the circulating pump running?check timeclock. Switch it to manual. Any lights on boiler?

evilivor

The thermostat and timer switches are wall mounted and and appear to be working fine - I checked the power lead going to the burner that seems fine; checked the fuses and they too seem fine.

There's a red button on the front of the Firebird which is an ignition switch or some sort - pressing that has no result. No other obvious lights or such on machine.

Is there a small black cover on the thermostat about the diameter of a 10c coin??

No that I can see.

evilivor

Is there a small black cover on the thermostat about the diameter of a 10c coin??

Found it and sorted! You have made Christmas!. Words cannot express my gratitude fully.

Thank you so much to both of you.

Ivor

meercat

Is the pump running when powered up?you might have to take cover off to access burner. Check high limit stat as previous pater stated. Normally on top. On burner look out for oil reset light

meercat

Great make sure pump circulating. May be frozen or jammed. Happy Christmas

evilivor

meercat wrote: »

Great make sure pump circulating. May be frozen or jammed. Happy Christmas

Lovely toasty rads around the house and I get the kudos of having sorted it (having given due credit to Boards naturally).

It must have switched itself off as a self-protection measure in early morning - I'm in South Kerry and it's terribly cold here - big freeze all over the place. I shall have have to show my Dad how to reset it when he gets back from Mass.

Thanks again to all who posted.

Avns1s

Glad your sorted. Have a good (and warm) one!

items

evilivor wrote: »

Lovely toasty rads around the house and I get the kudos of having sorted it (having given due credit to Boards naturally).

It must have switched itself off as a self-protection measure in early morning - I'm in South Kerry and it's terribly cold here - big freeze all over the place. I shall have have to show my Dad how to reset it when he gets back from Mass.

Thanks again to all who posted.

Glad your all sorted, have to mention. The reset button under the black cap is hidden for a reason. Something has happened to your boiler which requires someone of experience to have a look at it. Why else would that reset be hidden? It's hidden for safety. You may have been lucky, boiler might have went to high limit due to bad weather, frozen pump etc.

If your boiler happens to lock out on high limit (over heat) again, just be careful. By all means reset the boiler but lower the temp until your sure all is working well. If its real cold where you are over the next few days, you should lower the boiler temp and let it run on (over night etc).

JamesM

items wrote: »

Glad your all sorted, have to mention. The reset button under the black cap is hidden for a reason. Something has happened to your boiler which requires someone of experience to have a look at it. Why else would that reset be hidden? It's hidden for safety.

Hidden for a reason That's a new one on me

It's most likely that the boiler stat was turned up when the weather got colder. With the boiler on a bit more during Christmas, it overheated a bit and the safety stat hopped out. Just turn the stat on the boiler down a bit.
Jim.

OPENROAD

I'm having a similar problem with my boiler, for the last ten days or so, essentially some days it is igniting, other days it is not, I have been able to get it going by pressing the reset button on the boiler. I had my boiler fully serviced in October and had all the plates received, so I got the plumbing company back out this week, he wasn't able to diagnose why the boiler was not coming on with the timer, just said the thermostat was too high on the boiler and that this might be it.

However today when it did not come on the reset button did not work, the boiler appeared tom start up but for less than 10 secs before going off.

Just read the post above from Avns1s about "the small black cover on the thermostat about the diameter of a 10c coin" so went out and unscrewed the cap and pressed the white pin, the boiler actually started up, however also white smoke coming from the boiler area(where orange flame is) and strong smell, so I decided to turn everything off rather than chancing anything.

Any indications of what might be wrong?

Tks

items

JamesM wrote: »

Hidden for a reason That's a new one on me

It's most likely that the boiler stat was turned up when the weather got colder. With the boiler on a bit more during Christmas, it overheated a bit and the safety stat hopped out. Just turn the stat on the boiler down a bit.
Jim.

Jim in all fairness, you haven't a clue about plumbing, your nit picking at the wrong person.

High limit stat on an oil boiler should not be reset by the home owner, next time you see an oil boiler manual, have a look at the user guide. I don't recall ever seeing instructions given for the home owner to locate the high limit reset. Why is this?

Look at the post above this, thanks to great advice from people just like yourself, that posters boiler nearly went on fire.

items

OPENROAD wrote: »

I'm having a similar problem with my boiler, for the last ten days or so, essentially some days it is igniting, other days it is not, I have been able to get it going by pressing the reset button on the boiler. I had my boiler fully serviced in October and had all the plates received, so I got the plumbing company back out this week, he wasn't able to diagnose why the boiler was not coming on with the timer, just said the thermostat was too high on the boiler and that this might be it.

However today when it did not come on the reset button did not work, the boiler appeared tom start up but for less than 10 secs before going off.

Just read the post above from Avns1s about "the small black cover on the thermostat about the diameter of a 10c coin" so went out and unscrewed the cap and pressed the white pin, the boiler actually started up, however also white smoke coming from the boiler area(where orange flame is) and strong smell, so I decided to turn everything off rather than chancing anything.

Any indications of what might be wrong?

Tks

Your lucky, your oil boiler could of went on fire. Be very careful with advice given on boards.ie. You reset the boiler when you really shouldn't have. Their could be many reasons why your boiler locked out on high limit. From sounds of smoke, and maybe a strong smell of oil? You could have firing problems, jetting could be out, photo eye which detects flame could be faulty. Best call up a oil boiler service person.

I would'nt try turning the boiler on again until its looked at. Might be a chance where your boiler is building up some unburnt oil, too much oil gathered inside could set it on fire.

items

Anyone reading this with an oil boiler. Unfortunately oil boilers are fairly primitive, they really only have two safety devices, first is high limit lock out and second is fire check valve.

Some posters on here have given out information about how to reset an oil boiler which has locked out on high limit. If you choose to take it upon yourself to reset an oil boiler which has locked out on high limit, you are running the boiler in a hazardous situation.

Only experienced, qualified persons should reset a boiler that has locked out on high limit, that way the oil boiler can be observed to ensure its running safely.

To my knowledge, oil boiler manufacturer's do not give details about the hidden reset button in the boiler user manual, you might only find details in the service manual. I doubt your home insurance will cover you if anything happened after you reset a boiler on high limit.

If you reset an oil boiler by using the high limit reset your only safety device left is the fire check valve, majority of times this safety valve is fitted incorrectly and provides little protection if so.

Now you know the risks.

JamesM

OPENROAD wrote: »

I'm having a similar problem with my boiler, for the last ten days or so, essentially some days it is igniting, other days it is not, I have been able to get it going by pressing the reset button on the boiler. I had my boiler fully serviced in October and had all the plates received, so I got the plumbing company back out this week, he wasn't able to diagnose why the boiler was not coming on with the timer, just said the thermostat was too high on the boiler and that this might be it.

However today when it did not come on the reset button did not work, the boiler appeared tom start up but for less than 10 secs before going off.

Just read the post above from Avns1s about "the small black cover on the thermostat about the diameter of a 10c coin" so went out and unscrewed the cap and pressed the white pin, the boiler actually started up, however also white smoke coming from the boiler area(where orange flame is) and strong smell, so I decided to turn everything off rather than chancing anything.

Any indications of what might be wrong?

Tks

Hi OPENROAD, I will ignore some very dodgy posts here that seem to have been mage by someone with a little too much Christmas cheer, or beer, in the middle of the night.

I would think that you may have an ignition problem with your boiler and probably should get the service engineer back. It would seem from your post that when the boiler was not igniting, you were pushing the button down low on the burner and this was starting the boiler in most cases. If you are using gas oil instead of kerosene, this may have started happening in the cold weather. Gas oil, or diesel, is more difficult to ignite when it is cold. Then you may have turned the thermostat up to give more heat, or keep the boiler on longer. This may have tripped the high limit stat on the boiler (the button under the cover beside the thermostat dial). When you reset that, you still had the problem with ignition, and the boiler spluttered and puffed out some smoke as it tried to ignite. You will see from this manual from Grant Boilers (a very popular model) http://www.grantengineering.ie/userfiles/download_61.pdf that there is no problem re-setting the limit stat. The reason it hops out is because the temperature in the boiler has risen close to boiling point. This can be caused by a failure of the main stat, but is usually caused by having the stat set too high. Despite what others might say, You will see on page 3 and 4 of that USER manual full instructions for the user, on how to reset the high limit stat.

However your main problem is with initial ignition, and you may need to get the service engineer to check it out. If it is gas oil, remind him that he may need to raise the oil pressure and adjust other settings, air etc.
Jim.

OPENROAD

Thanks Guys, think I will leave things alone now, have arranged for someone to hopefully come up on Monday.

items

Good man Jim, I can see why there is never any qualified people on boards. People like you have a fascination of belittling. I happened to be on 24 hour call out this week so again your miles off and again, you've just posted up an installation and service manual. The manual is designed to give information to the installer. First page you will see big massive writing, installation and service manual.

Read the guide, it mentions calling a service engineer should you have to constantly reset the boiler during high limit.

The way you go on about it, you make it out to be no big deal when it is a big deal.

Your great advice already caused problems to another posters gas boiler, had I have not seen the other poster here, god only knows what you would have suggested.

I'll leave you some questions, since your so highly experienced you should have no problem answering correctly,

Why do boiler manufactures make it difficult to reset an oil boiler which has locked out on high limit? Why is the high limit reset button protected by a threaded locking cap? If the high limit reset button should be readily used as per your descriptions, why not make the high limit reset button more obvious?

items

items wrote: »

Good man Jim, I can see why there is never any qualified people on boards.

C&G662, PartP(electrics), PartL(Energy Efficiency),G3 (unvented) ACS CCN1,CKR1,HTR1,WAT1,CEN1,CONGLP1, GID,GIS,OFT101,OFT102,OFT103,OFT600A(don't do oil anymore,i found it smells:eek:) and Home Office Approved Control and Restraint, I have me qualification and I've never had a problem, Items it ain't what you say it's the way that you say it, why don't you try giving your advise and let people decide what makes the most sense, logic always wins, it works for me, it would be a shame to turn things into a pissing competition, Gary.

items

gary71 wrote: »

C&G662, PartP(electrics), PartL(Energy Efficiency),G3 (unvented) ACS CCN1,CKR1,HTR1,WAT1,CEN1,CONGLP1, GID,GIS,OFT101,OFT102,OFT103,OFT600A(don't do oil anymore,i found it smells:eek:) and Home Office Approved Control and Restraint, I have me qualification and I've never had a problem, Items it ain't what you say it's the way that you say it, why don't you try giving your advise and let people decide what makes the most sense, logic always wins, it works for me, it would be a shame to turn things into a pissing competition, Gary.

Never intended on it but found it hard being as I was being branded as raging alcoholic. I dont even drink. Just proving my points, not point scoring, I'm well confidant on my ability and don't require any rep, not here anyway. Just always have safety first so can never stress it enough. Sure you understand as I believe your RGI approved.

JamesM

items wrote: »

I'll leave you some questions, since your so highly experienced you should have no problem answering correctly,

Why do boiler manufactures make it difficult to reset an oil boiler which has locked out on high limit? Why is the high limit reset button protected by a threaded locking cap? If the high limit reset button should be readily used as per your descriptions, why not make the high limit reset button more obvious?

It's on page 3 & 4 of the user's guide and you say that the manufacturers are trying to hide it from the user
Also no one said anything about continuously pressing that button - he pressed it once - he pressed the button on the burner a few times.
There is no connection with the button on the limit stat and the button on the burner control box, unless maybe the boiler has completely sooted up and is smoking heavily. Then maybe the boiler might overheat - and it would be obvious that something was wrong - the smoke, fumes and soot would be very obvious.
You do not seem to have a very deep understanding of oil fired boilers and burners.
Jim.

I think you have very valid points when it comes to safety and having gasman paranoia i would say safety should be paramount, i just feel the points can get lost , I'm no Simon Cowell of boards so I'm not trying to tell you how to post, but on a daily basis i have to explain to installers/electrician why their installation are dangerous or not to standard and i have found the facts can speak for themselves, it's hard to argue with regs/manual, Gary(semi raging alco:cool:)

items

JamesM wrote: »

It's on page 3 & 4 of the user's guide and you say that the manufacturers are trying to hide it from the user
Also no one said anything about continuously pressing that button - he pressed it once - he pressed the button on the burner a few times.
There is no connection with the button on the limit stat and the button on the burner control box, unless maybe the boiler has completely sooted up and is smoking heavily. Then maybe the boiler might overheat - and it would be obvious that something was wrong - the smoke, fumes and soot would be very obvious.
You do not seem to have a very deep understanding of oil fired boilers and burners.
Jim.

Nope haven't a clue, never attended oil boiler service courses at FAS to back up my plumbing qualifications or never attended oil boiler service courses provided by oil boiler manufactures. I am a complete novice, just making all this up for the craic.

Also, must be blind, I could of swore that link you provided had big massive INSTALLATION AND SERVICE GUIDE as its first page.

Still waiting for an answer to my question, might learn something from you.

items

gary71 wrote: »

I think you have very valid points when it comes to safety and having gasman paranoia i would say safety should be paramount, i just feel the points can get lost , I'm no Simon Cowell of boards so I'm not trying to tell you how to post, but on a daily basis i have to explain to installers/electrician why their installation are dangerous or not to standard and i have found the facts can speak for themselves, it's hard to argue with regs/manual, Gary(semi raging alco:cool:)

Cheers, I find a lot of the time manuals and regs are least of users concerns. It's down to good old Ireland, very poor regulation on plumbing and heating, sure you know all about it. Lacking enforcement of regulation is reflected on user so they don't tend to be concerned with regulation.

I see lots of shocking installations only after I point it out the user can understand, majority of home owners in Ireland don't even know what valves do what. They'll run boilers until they practically stop working, before calling out an experienced person they'll call up Joe soap down the road who knows a bit about them.

Only as a last resort an experienced person will be called out, this covers everything from heating, water and sewage, Its all down to a lapsy daisy Co Council and Government. Only a matter of time before something bad happens, What happened in Cork was a real eye opener for all concerned.

When you go abroad their is a massive difference, I've been to states and canada, unbelievable the difference in regulation. No one can go near anything unless you have the right tickets, thats the only way it should be.

Until something like that comes in here, boards will forever be plagued with problems due to bad installations.

Avns1s

items wrote: »

Cheers, I find a lot of the time manuals and regs are least of users concerns. It's down to good old Ireland, very poor regulation on plumbing and heating, sure you know all about it. Lacking enforcement of regulation is reflected on user so they don't tend to be concerned with regulation.

I see lots of shocking installations only after I point it out the user can understand, majority of home owners in Ireland don't even know what valves do what. They'll run boilers until they practically stop working, before calling out an experienced person they'll call up Joe soap down the road who knows a bit about them.

Only as a last resort an experienced person will be called out, this covers everything from heating, water and sewage, Its all down to a lapsy daisy Co Council and Government. Only a matter of time before something bad happens, What happened in Cork was a real eye opener for all concerned.

When you go abroad their is a massive difference, I've been to states and canada, unbelievable the difference in regulation. No one can go near anything unless you have the right tickets, thats the only way it should be.

Until something like that comes in here, boards will forever be plagued with problems due to bad installations.

Items, I think you need to take a "chill pill". People come in here looking for advise and they get it from all sorts of people with varying or no qualifications / experience. The people looking for the advice are aware of this. Lots of good advice has been given and acted on in this forum for a long time. Ironically, a lot of the best advice has come from Jim, whom you seem to have a particular problem with. The way you are behaving, someone who hadn't been here before, would wonder how we all managed before you came along. Your input here is valued but not any more than the input of others who equally give of their time and opinions / expertise to try and help others. Just relax a bit and let us enjoy the forum without the current atmosphere. Thanks.

items

No bother, I joined up here but was mostly posting in a different section. The Cork one, I wanted to help out when people had trouble with no water etc during the floods.

Only happened to be browsing at the time when I stumbled across a post with advice which came as a big no no to me. I mentioned how the advice given was well off the mark then noticed some harshness coming from the poster you've just mentioned.

All the advice I give is correct advice, I am giving advice how I see fit, if people have a problem with it, thats not my concern.

I don't mind being the bad man, most cases the actual posters work of my advice and so far I've stated how some of the suggestions could cause more problems and they have indeed caused more problems.

Heating is not a DIY matter, long as I am here I'll make sure thats know.

You mention current atmosphere, check back on my posts and you'll see where the atmosphere is coming from, you might see plenty of criticism based with facts, not belittling remarks, insults etc, might find something, can only think of one case but I've apologized for it as it was a genuine mistake. Compared to what I am getting, I am giving very little to create this atmosphere.

I'll gladly stop posting advice if I am the cause of this recent upset, so far I've not had any messages from any moderators.

No chill pill needed here.

OPENROAD

Lads as a matter of interest on my ignition problem, could the thermostat on the boiler being too high have been causing my problem.


Just to clarify I had the oil burner (Firebird) fully serviced only in October together with having the plates replaced.

items

OPENROAD wrote: »

Lads as a matter of interest on my ignition problem, could the thermostat on the boiler being too high have been causing my problem.


Just to clarify I had the oil burner (Firebird) fully serviced only in October together with having the plates replaced.

Unless your thermostat is faulty it should not cause boiler to lock out on high limit.

You should have no problem turning thermostat to full setting without the boiler locking out.

It takes a very high temp to knock a boiler off, a temp above max setting on thermostat.

To have the boiler service person say you've got the stat set to high and thats the reason its locking out doesn't sound right to me.

Oil boiler stats are fairly cheap, so might be worth replacing, see what happens from there.

What setting is the thermostat set at when boiler locks out?

meercat

in some installations it is advisable to have the pump running after the boiler switches off to prevent build up of heat at controlers and circulate any hot water in the system until it cools down.this can be easily done with a pipe stat to control the pump

OPENROAD

items wrote: »

To have the boiler service person say you've got the stat set to high and thats the reason its locking out doesn't sound right to me.

What setting is the thermostat set at when boiler locks out?

I must say I was surprised he said this when he came out, it was effectively the only thing he looked at, he did look at the valve I think, was surprised that this was the only thing he did, he said lowering the thermostat would probably work.:(

I think it was set on 90, but it was on the higherst point, not 100% sure, he lowered it down to 75.

I'm hoping to have someone from the same place that serviced the boiler on Monday just hope it is not the same person from the other day. I'm just surprised that after having a full service recently I am having problems.

meercat

it may be possible if the boiler has just timed off and there is very hot water in the system ,and it does not circulate away from the boiler thermostat and the high limit stat, that the high limit stat will cut out.by reducing the thermostat temperature you will reduce water temperature in the pipework and help prevent high limit stat tripping.a pipe stat on the pump should help.your boiler man who called was right in saying reducing thermostat will help.

items

OPENROAD wrote: »

I must say I was surprised he said this when he came out, it was effectively the only thing he looked at, he did look at the valve I think, was surprised that this was the only thing he did, he said lowering the thermostat would probably work.:(

I think it was set on 90, but it was on the higherst point, not 100% sure, he lowered it down to 75.

I'm hoping to have someone from the same place that serviced the boiler on Monday just hope it is not the same person from the other day. I'm just surprised that after having a full service recently I am having problems.

If you've still got the boiler manual and thermostat instructions, you'll see a difference in both temp, max stat temp setting is different to lowest setting for boiler to lock out on high limit.

It would be a bit daft to have a thermostat being able to adjust above lowest temp on high limit if you understand?

To break it down, say your high limit knocks boiler off for safety reasons at 90 it would'nt make sense to have a stat installed which allows boiler to reach 95.

You might have been fobbed off with an excuse, could be many reasons why your having difficultly, before going into expense best bring up the stat issue now that you have an understanding. If this problem has only happened due to frost, something else might have happened. So might not have been a bad service, just a new problem. Very hard to tell from here so this is best I can give for now.

Poster above has good advice with pipe stat but may only be associated with boilers experiencing constant lock out due to heat not being able to dissipate enough. After boiler shuts off, pump might stop running but boiler metal is still hot, providing more heat causing boiler to over heat.

You have some smoke and smells, so burner needs looking at, then stat as sounds like you might have some existing stat problem.

OPENROAD

Tks lads, hope they do manage to send someone out on Monday

items

OPENROAD wrote: »

Tks lads, hope they do manage to send someone out on Monday

Best of luck, try not to give the service person a hard time until problem is found. Weather is mad lately, difference in outside temp can effect boiler oil and air pressure settings along with other things.

Boiler might have been set up to cope perfect during time it was serviced last, now weather is different, boiler will react different.

If you've been running boiler at highest setting, you shouldn't be able to touch rads or run a hot tap at full bore, all would be far to hot, or you've got far to much heat loss happening which is doubtful. Might give some clues to possible stat problem.

OPENROAD

items wrote: »

Best of luck, try not to give the service person a hard time until problem is found. Weather is mad lately, difference in outside temp can effect boiler oil and air pressure settings along with other things.

Boiler might have been set up to cope perfect during time it was serviced last, now weather is different, boiler will react different.

If you've been running boiler at highest setting, you shouldn't be able to touch rads or run a hot tap at full bore, all would be far to hot, or you've got far to much heat loss happening which is doubtful. Might give some clues to possible stat problem.

No I won't, will be just grateful to get someone up


This is the case on all rads. bar one, though when I bleed the rad, once a week, it goes back to being very hot.

items

OPENROAD wrote: »

No I won't, will be just grateful to get someone up


This is the case on all rads. bar one, though when I bleed the rad, once a week, it goes back to being very hot.

Have you ever tried to reduce temp, would cut down a lot on oil consumption. little goes a long way. I find sometimes people don't know the difference when stat is lowered, many times people have asked me to leave stat at same setting, they have little pen marks on it etc, I'll always drop it a few, most cases they never notice, anytime I've been back, stat is still same.

Women are divils, stat has to be left high no matter what, something in their head. Same with hot water. Not many people can tell difference between 65 and 80 physically. Drop the stat a bit for a week after boiler is back running, might be surprised.

Could be wrong on this as your system might not heat house enough, thats why boiler is set so high.

If you've to vent a rad constantly, your system is taking in air, which is not good but diffenerent ball game for another time.

JamesM

OPENROAD wrote: »

I must say I was surprised he said this when he came out, it was effectively the only thing he looked at, he did look at the valve I think, was surprised that this was the only thing he did, he said lowering the thermostat would probably work.:(

I think it was set on 90, but it was on the higherst point, not 100% sure, he lowered it down to 75.

I'm hoping to have someone from the same place that serviced the boiler on Monday just hope it is not the same person from the other day. I'm just surprised that after having a full service recently I am having problems.

Hi OPENROAD, You have 2 problems, as I said before. One is very simple, you had the boiler stat set too high. 90 is very high for a boiler stat, it is very close to boiling point. Sometimes when the heating system shuts down, the burner has been running and the boiler is very hot. When the circulation stops, the boiler continues to heat the water in the jacket and it rises almost to boiling point and the safety stat shuts the system off. Often this is not noticed until the next morning when the system switches on again. The thermostat is not made by the boiler manufacturer, it can have many applications - so the temp is marked up to 90. That does not mean that you should run the system at that temp. About 60 degrees is the usual for mild weather, going up to about 75 in the colder weather - at least that's what most people use. Once you turn down the stat and it does not happen all the time, there is no problem resetting the high limit stat.

You also have a second problem with the ignition and burning, so you do need to have a service engineer look at it. Are you burning gas oil or kerosene ? see my previous post.
Jim.