Extremist Muslims in Britain and elsewhere

legal-eagle

Seriously, I have a query as to why these people who despise everything about the western world and have no intention of adapting to the culture of their host country don't go and live in a strict muslim country?

I say this after I was chatting with a friend of mine who lives in London and had recently seen a leaflet about the "The Magnificent 19" which was basically a homage to the 19 terrorists involved in the September 11 attack.

Do these people not strike you as hypocrites? All big Muslim firebrands and fundamentalists should go live in their little caves in Helmund province and have no music, TV or education for women if you ask me.

And no I'm not racist or anti-muslim so lets not play that card, Its a valid discussion.

Terrontress

A lot of them have been born in the UK and want to see change bought about. Blowing people up is wrong, regardless of who is doing but I'd support anyone who wishes to bring about an islamic state by peaceful means.

There have been a lot of unionists said the same about Republicans in Northern Ireland. If they find the government here so repulsive, why don't move south of the border instead of trying to effect change by undemocratic means.

legal-eagle

How can you compare them to Republicans, born and bred on their Island?
How dare they ram extreme Islam down the throats of a non-Muslim country?
I feel like Frank Grimes in these situations!!

aurelius79

legal-eagle wrote: »

How can you compare them to Republicans, born and bred on their Island?
How dare they ram extreme Islam down the throats of a non-Muslim country?
I feel like Frank Grimes in these situations!!

Islam Extreme? Is that a new sports religion?

Seriously, I have a query as to why these people who despise everything about the western world and have no intention of adapting to the culture of their host country don't go and live in a strict muslim country?

Ok, what about the thousands of Muslims that did live in a Muslim country until some Western army came and blew up their house, their family, their way of life?
Or what about those Muslims that still do live in Muslim countries, in their Muslim refugee camps?

Do these people not strike you as hypocrites? All big Muslim firebrands and fundamentalists should go live in their little caves in Helmund province and have no music, TV or education for women if you ask me.

I don't know what to say that would not get me banned from this forum for a week.
I suppose all fundamentalist Jews should go live in a settlement in Israel and all fundamentalist Christians should just drink the Kool-aid.

The problem we have with Islam is that many Muslim countries have been under attack since the Crusades. As a result of this, the thin red line that separates political struggle and religious war has become thinner and thinner. Maybe that's why you are having trouble differentiating between the two.

digme

Do these people not strike you as hypocrites?

They do but so are we.
We exploit them so we can live the way we do, it's that simple.

Terrontress

legal-eagle wrote: »

How can you compare them to Republicans, born and bred on their Island?
How dare they ram extreme Islam down the throats of a non-Muslim country?

Because if you take the likes of the tube bombers, they were born and bred in England so there is a very real similarity. As I said, if the majority of Ireland, UK or anywhere chose to have a peaceful, islamic republic then I'd have no issue with that.

OldJay

How is this a 'Politics' thread???

The Saint

This is a weird thread. Mental case fundamentalists of any kind should be condemned. The UK have pretty stricy incitement laws. If anything has been done illegal by these people they should be dealt with by the law.

BlaasForRafa

aurelius79 wrote: »

Islam Extreme? Is that a new sports religion?



Ok, what about the thousands of Muslims that did live in a Muslim country until some Western army came and blew up their house, their family, their way of life?
Or what about those Muslims that still do live in Muslim countries, in their Muslim refugee camps?



I don't know what to say that would not get me banned from this forum for a week.
I suppose all fundamentalist Jews should go live in a settlement in Israel and all fundamentalist Christians should just drink the Kool-aid.

The problem we have with Islam is that many Muslim countries have been under attack since the Crusades. As a result of this, the thin red line that separates political struggle and religious war has become thinner and thinner. Maybe that's why you are having trouble differentiating between the two.

Don't give us "Oh they've been under attack since the crusades" bull****. How else do you think Islam was spread so far, it was by conquest and war.

Before making stupid posts like that why don't you at least know a bit more about the subject like the conquests of North africa and Spain, the conquest of Constantinople, the subjugation of the balkans, the sieges of Vienna, the pillage and slave-raids of the barbary pirates, and thats just the attacks on the west.

Using the crusades as a motivation for terrorism is as bad as using any other long past historical event for aggression.

dlofnep

There are extremists in all walks of life. What target muslims? Ever hear of the Westboro Baptist Church? Scientologists?

This is really a non-discussion. It's just a thread to vent at them.

dsmythy

dlofnep wrote: »

There are extremists in all walks of life. What target muslims? Ever hear of the Westboro Baptist Church? Scientologists?

This is really a non-discussion. It's just a thread to vent at them.

Well using that logic threads on the Westboro and scientology people ought not be brought up ever either.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Lots of devout muslims do move to the likes of Pakistan when they get married etc. But they might stay in UK and the rest of the west if their circumstances insist on it. Say they have parents here or careers that keep them there.

Anyway I don't the ones you mean by extremists are neccesarily devout. The ones who support bombings and attacks are usually politically motivated rather than religious. Religion just helps them feel more part of a movement. Same in Northern Ireland in the past. The UVF motto was "for god and ulster" but they were far more motivated by republican attacks than religious domination.

Nodin

In fairness to the OP, he was quite specific in what he was talking about.

However.....

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Don't give us "Oh they've been under attack since the crusades" bull****. How else do you think Islam was spread so far, it was by conquest and war. .

How'd it get to Indonesia?

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Before making stupid posts like that why don't you at least know a bit more about the subject like the conquests of North africa and Spain, the conquest of Constantinople, the subjugation of the balkans, the sieges of Vienna, the pillage and slave-raids of the barbary pirates, and thats just the attacks on the west. .

How does that make them any worse than anyone else?

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Using the crusades as a motivation for terrorism is as bad as using any other long past historical event for aggression.

....but evidently theres nothing wrong with using a "long past historical event" or three to justify muslim bashing.

aurelius79

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Don't give us "Oh they've been under attack since the crusades" bull****. How else do you think Islam was spread so far, it was by conquest and war.

As opposed to Christian genocide of native populations in Europe, North and South America, and Australia?

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Before making stupid posts like that why don't you at least know a bit more about the subject like the conquests of North africa and Spain, the conquest of Constantinople, the subjugation of the balkans, the sieges of Vienna,

There is actually a difference between political and religious struggle. For hundreds of years non-Muslims lived in peace with Muslims in the Ottoman Empire. It is the struggle with Christian Europe that caused so much upheaval and hardship for non-Muslims in the Empire.

Al-Andalus was perhaps the most civilized and tolerant region in the whole of Europe during the middle ages. In fact, it was an asylum for Pagans, Jews, un-orthodox Christians from all over Europe. It wasn't until a Christian minority started to create unrest that things went into decline.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

the pillage and slave-raids of the barbary pirates, and thats just the attacks on the west.

African Muslims by no means had a monopoly on the slave trade. European and American slave traders were many times worse than Muslim slave traders. As far as pirates are concerned, I just have three words. Captain John Ward.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Using the crusades as a motivation for terrorism is as bad as using any other long past historical event for aggression.

And blaming Islam for centuries of political struggle is just as bad as blaming Christianity for the genocide of native Americans and aboriginis in Australia or even the atomic bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

dsmythy

The thread's gone off topic. The OP wants to know why muslim extremists who intend violence don't just instead move to Saudi Arabia for example to find their perfect place to live?

aurelius79

dsmythy wrote: »

The thread's gone off topic. The OP wants to know why muslim extremists who intend violence don't just instead move to Saudi Arabia for example to find their perfect place to live?

It's the same reason that someone who wants to murder people doesn't go off and live alone in the woods. People who "intend violence" will do so wherever they are, whatever they believe. These people are called sociopaths. Muslim sociopaths just have an obvious target and an excuse because they're all considered terrorists and extremists.

The west created this current "war on terror" so don't be surprised when these alleged terrorists attack the west. This is a war after all. The Nazis carpet bombed London and the south of England, Dresdon was destroyed by the RAF, but we don't seem to consider them terrorists.

Here are some pictures taken after the Dresden bombing, just so we're clear about what terrorism is.


It seems the modern battlefield consists of soldiers on one side and terrorists on the other, regardless of who those terrorists are. I imagine Hugo Chavez is considered a terrorist by many Americans.

Here are some pictures taken after the Dresden bombing, just so we're clear about what terrorism is.






Here's Nagasaki and Hiroshima

philologos

legal-eagle wrote: »

Seriously, I have a query as to why these people who despise everything about the western world and have no intention of adapting to the culture of their host country don't go and live in a strict muslim country?

What exactly is the culture of a Western country these days? I don't think anyone could really agree.

legal-eagle wrote: »

And no I'm not racist or anti-muslim so lets not play that card, Its a valid discussion.

It's a common point being made anyway. I don't think there is a predefined Western culture.

dsmythy

WW2 is off-topic too. It's too simple to write violent Islamic extremism off as psychopathy or otherwise. Sure it will figure for some but for many it's fervent radicalised religious belief. They can find what they stand for in Saudi Arabia or otherwise but they are more interested seemingly in bringing it to Europe. Not in 1945 but in 2010 and beyond. Perhaps they see Saudi Arabia or a country like it as already in the mold of their taste and so wish to spread it instead. Seems the most logical reasoning behind the answer to the OP's question.

aurelius79

dsmythy wrote: »

WW2 is off-topic too. It's too simple to write violent Islamic extremism off as psychopathy or otherwise. Sure it will figure for some but for many it's fervent radicalised religious belief. They can find what they stand for in Saudi Arabia or otherwise but they are more interested seemingly in bringing it to Europe. Not in 1945 but in 2010 and beyond. Perhaps they see Saudi Arabia or a country like it as already in the mold of their taste and so wish to spread it instead. Seems the most logical reasoning behind the answer to the OP's question.

I don't think Islamic extremists are trying to convert anyone here. They are taking action against the west spreading it's culture in Islamic countries. Show me one action taken by modern Islamic extremists that was not a direct result of western influence in the Middle East.

Hezbollah and Hamas only exist because of an agreement made between the British government and European Zionists. It was the American and European involvement in the Middle-east that led to the rise to power of Saddam Hussein, the Ayatollah Khomeini, the ensuing Iran-Iraq War, the Persian Gulf War etc. Russian, American, and European influence in Afghanistan that led to the rise of the Taliban.

By the way, I didn't say extremists are psychopaths, I said they are sociopaths and we have just as many sociopaths in positions of authority over here. I think the recent convictions of pedophile priests and judges in this country can attest to that.

dsmythy

aurelius79 wrote: »

I don't think Islamic extremists are trying to convert anyone here. They are taking action against the west spreading it's culture in Islamic countries. Show me one action taken by modern Islamic extremists that was not a direct result of western influence in the Middle East.

By the way, I didn't say extremists are psychopaths, I said they are sociopaths and we have just as many sociopaths in positions of authority over here. I think the recent convictions of pedophile priests and judges in this country can attest to that.

Perhaps that is the case for some although growing up in the UK or other European countries it shows their divided loyalties to hark back to the centre of Islam. I think personally if they felt so strongly about it, heading to Iraq and Afghanistan and taking up arms would be a more productive exercise than damaging moderate non-violent Islam with attacks on civilians in Europe or the US. But then again if it's a case of them being sociopaths perhaps they simply don't care much for the Islam they claim to be defending as they might think.

I think the OP is getting some idea at least as to why they don't up sticks and leave when they can remain in the freedom of Europe.

Flamed Diving

Worst. Thread. Ever.

And not because of the OP.

SeanW

Terrontress wrote: »

but I'd support anyone who wishes to bring about an islamic state by peaceful means.

Err ... Why?

Lab_Mouse

SeanW wrote: »

Err ... Why?

Perhaps he's a moderate muslim?

OldJay

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Worst. Thread. Ever.

Got to be up there, for sure.

As usual, folk mix up Muslim with extremist much the same way that people on a net forum mix up Jew with Israeli or immigrant with illegal immigrant.

And again I'll point out that it has bugger all to do with politics.

Zambia

The basic theme of this thread appears to be that "<Insert western country> is a Christian based country if you dont like it f**k off back to your own country".

When the whole thing falls apart is when the person you direct this at is born and bred in said same country, but does not believe in the christian values that the majority believe in?

The values that Essentially make western countries the best to live in (yes they are) are the same that leave them open to constant gradual change. However the same factors will also make it nigh on impossible for the extreme factions to effect any extreme changes without the mainstream accepting it.

Extremists are just fringe elements

philologos

Nothing was even mentioned about Christian values in the first post. Rather it was to do with "Western" culture something which I don't really know what that can be tied down to.

Zambia

Jakkass wrote: »

Nothing was even mentioned about Christian values in the first post. Rather it was to do with "Western" culture something which I don't really know what that can be tied down to.

Most western countries are Christian

philologos

It depends on how one would define Christian. A lot of people on these fora wouldn't consider Christianity as an inherent part of Western culture.

dsmythy

Justind wrote: »

Got to be up there, for sure.

As usual, folk mix up Muslim with extremist much the same way that people on a net forum mix up Jew with Israeli or immigrant with illegal immigrant.

And again I'll point out that it has bugger all to do with politics.

Zambia232 wrote: »

The basic theme of this thread appears to be that "<Insert western country> is a Christian based country if you dont like it f**k off back to your own country".

When the whole thing falls apart is when the person you direct this at is born and bred in said same country, but does not believe in the christian values that the majority believe in?

The values that Essentially make western countries the best to live in (yes they are) are the same that leave them open to constant gradual change. However the same factors will also make it nigh on impossible for the extreme factions to effect any extreme changes without the mainstream accepting it.

Extremists are just fringe elements

The entire thread is directed at extremist muslims. Not once were the lines blurred between them and non-extreme Muslims so i don't quite know why you both bring that line up.

Nodin

dsmythy wrote: »

The entire thread is directed at extremist muslims. Not once were the lines blurred between them and non-extreme Muslims so i don't quite know why you both bring that line up.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63648804&postcount=9

dsmythy

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63648804&postcount=9

In response to someone who brought up the crusades of all things. Islam around the time of the crusades is as described in the post, but we are talking about the 21st century here.

legal-eagle

This has gone so completely off topic..I'm talking specifically about young guys in Britain who are happy to live their and enjoy all the democratic freedom it provides yet proclaim their hatred of the west and non-muslims!

So if their so unhappy and against our culture why not take a hike to Iran or Saudi Arabia and perform their honour killings amongst friends?

Please stick to the topic, the Iraq war or Palestine does not come into this just like Huga Chavez's Venezeula doesn't matter to our Catholic state.

Zambia

dsmythy wrote: »

The entire thread is directed at extremist muslims. Not once were the lines blurred between them and non-extreme Muslims so i don't quite know why you both bring that line up.

You cant have extremist Muslims without Muslims.

However in my post I never mentioned standard Muslims only those who would try and impose non western values on western cultures.

FlutterinBantam

legal-eagle wrote: »

This has gone so completely off topic..I'm talking specifically about young guys in Britain who are happy to live their and enjoy all the democratic freedom it provides yet proclaim their hatred of the west and non-muslims!

So if their so unhappy and against our culture why not take a hike to Iran or Saudi Arabia and perform their honour killings amongst friends?

Please stick to the topic, the Iraq war or Palestine does not come into this just like Huga Chavez's Venezeula doesn't matter to our Catholic state.

Lot of those types around here as well eagle, I often wonder why the fook they don't head off to these places they 'care' so much about .

I think there is a word for it, something like 'reverse hypocracy' or something like those geezers who inhabited the Glen of the Downs when the motorway was being built.

Where are they now?

probably up some godforsaken tree in Tara/Bognor Regis save our shoreline/ Chipping Norton bypass defense/ ....insert 'cause' here.

OldJay

dsmythy wrote: »

The entire thread is directed at extremist muslims. Not once were the lines blurred between them and non-extreme Muslims so i don't quite know why you both bring that line up.

Firstly because its a Politics forum and secondly because the "lines" have in fact been blurred as per usual.

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Lot of those types around here as well eagle, I often wonder why the fook they don't head off to these places they 'care' so much about .

...yet here you are, commenting yourself...and not for the first time.

dsmythy

Justind wrote: »

Firstly because its a Politics forum and secondly because the "lines" have in fact been blurred as per usual.

I don't see where that has happened here. Either way through Dresden, Hiroshima and the Crusades i think the OP somehow got some sort of answer to his question.

aurelius79

legal-eagle wrote: »

This has gone so completely off topic..I'm talking specifically about young guys in Britain who are happy to live their and enjoy all the democratic freedom it provides yet proclaim their hatred of the west and non-muslims!

So if their so unhappy and against our culture why not take a hike to Iran or Saudi Arabia and perform their honour killings amongst friends?

Please stick to the topic, the Iraq war or Palestine does not come into this just like Huga Chavez's Venezeula doesn't matter to our Catholic state.

And there are young people in Ireland who are happy to live their and enjoy all the democratic freedom it provides yet proclaim their hatred of Fianna Fail and RTE or whatever else people hate in this country!

I think you're being incredibly hypocritical, especially after reading your threads on single mothers and other social welfare recipients. If you hate the Irish welfare system so much, feel free to go elsewhere.

The fact is, many Muslims in western countries have seen their ancestral homes destroyed by the West. Why shouldn't they speak out against it? If the U.S. invaded Ireland and completely destroyed Dublin, Galway, and Cork would you condemn Irish Americans for speaking out against the U.S.? No, of course you wouldn't.

FlutterinBantam

aurelius79 wrote: »

I think you're being incredibly hypocritical, especially after reading your threads on single mothers and other social welfare recipients. If you hate the Irish welfare system so much, feel free to go elsewhere.

The fact, is many Muslims in western countries have seen their ancestral homes destroyed by the West. Why shouldn't they speak out against it? If the U.S. invaded Ireland and completely destroyed Dublin, Galway, and Cork would you condemn Irish Americans for speaking out against the U.S.? No, of course you wouldn't.

"If you hate the Irish welfare system so much ,feel free to go elsewhere"!

What kind of 'logic' is that, friend??

I'm only funding the system all my frikken life, so I have a right to critisise!!!

junder

if militant Islam is a product of the west oppression of Muslim countrys why is Saudi Arabia such a hot bed of islamic militant activity. why does a rich Nigerian try and blow up a plane? how was he opressed?

irish_bob

Terrontress wrote: »

Because if you take the likes of the tube bombers, they were born and bred in England so there is a very real similarity. As I said, if the majority of Ireland, UK or anywhere chose to have a peaceful, islamic republic then I'd have no issue with that.

you have no issue with the bringing about of an islamic society , the words , chamberlain and roll over spring to mind

Kit1976

legal-eagle wrote: »

Seriously, I have a query as to why these people who despise everything about the western world and have no intention of adapting to the culture of their host country don't go and live in a strict muslim country?

I say this after I was chatting with a friend of mine who lives in London and had recently seen a leaflet about the "The Magnificent 19" which was basically a homage to the 19 terrorists involved in the September 11 attack.

Do these people not strike you as hypocrites? All big Muslim firebrands and fundamentalists should go live in their little caves in Helmund province and have no music, TV or education for women if you ask me.

And no I'm not racist or anti-muslim so lets not play that card, Its a valid discussion.

I'm always fascinated by how racists can never spell, punctuate or form sentences, even when they're pretending to work in law, where you need a basic level of literacy. A general tip would be, if you're letting on that you have a base level of education to justify your sub-Daily Mail rants, brush up on the old grammar.

To be honest, it's not really up to you to decide where people who have a certain point of view shall live, or how they shall live. You might think handing out a leaflet with some points of view on it is hypocritical, but as your in-depth legal training will no doubt have covered, being a hypocrite is not against the law. Many of the people responsible for producing and handing out those leaflets in London (assuming they actually exist, again, your legal training will make you extremely wary of hearsay) will have been British born. Why should they live in Afghanistan if they are British?

aurelius79

junder wrote: »

if militant Islam is a product of the west oppression of Muslim countrys why is Saudi Arabia such a hot bed of islamic militant activity. why does a rich Nigerian try and blow up a plane? how was he opressed?

I think you're missing the point. Extremists, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. are all sociopaths. They do these things because they are sociopaths, not because of what religion they are. Religion is just an easy "excuse" for the things they do and say.

junder

aurelius79 wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. Extremists, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. are all sociopaths. They do these things because they are sociopaths, not because of what religion they are. Religion is just an easy "excuse" for the things they do and say.

I was just responding to what appeared to be tacit justification of the way some islamic fundamentalists behave.

BlaasForRafa

aurelius79 wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. Extremists, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. are all sociopaths. They do these things because they are sociopaths, not because of what religion they are. Religion is just an easy "excuse" for the things they do and say.

Possibly, but there seems to be a lot more Islamic sociopaths these days. Perhaps it is something in the way the religion is being promoted and taught in some parts of the world has led to this upsurge. I can't think of any current christian equivalent to the radical Madrassas in Pakistan for example

dsmythy

Kit1976 wrote: »

. Why should they live in Afghanistan if they are British?

Maybe because they are unhappy. The extremists that is, who wish to bring their form of Islamic law through any means possible. The target of the OP who didn't show any antipathy to peaceful non-murdering Muslims. Of course you wanted to throw 'racist' in there so well done you've acheived it thus devaluing your post to me which otherwise makes a fair point.

Rossibaby

legal-eagle wrote: »

Seriously, I have a query as to why these people who despise everything about the western world and have no intention of adapting to the culture of their host country don't go and live in a strict muslim country?

I say this after I was chatting with a friend of mine who lives in London and had recently seen a leaflet about the "The Magnificent 19" which was basically a homage to the 19 terrorists involved in the September 11 attack.

Do these people not strike you as hypocrites? All big Muslim firebrands and fundamentalists should go live in their little caves in Helmund province and have no music, TV or education for women if you ask me.

And no I'm not racist or anti-muslim so lets not play that card, Its a valid discussion.

Yes, you are. Might have something to do with telling them to go and live in a cave, but whatever floats your boat.

'adapting to the culture of the host country', what muck is this? And what is wrong with a multi-cultural society?

And god forbid they don't watch tv:rolleyes:

Oh and btw, maybe you wouldn't be ****ting yourself at the prospect of a Muslim extremist attack if America and Britain took your advice and stayed out of Afghanistan!

dsmythy

Rossibaby wrote: »

Yes, you are. Might have something to do with telling them to go and live in a cave, but whatever floats your boat.

'adapting to the culture of the host country', what muck is this? And what is wrong with a multi-cultural society?

And god forbid they don't watch tv:rolleyes:

Oh and btw, maybe you wouldn't be ****ting yourself at the prospect of a Muslim extremist attack if America and Britain took your advice and stayed out of Afghanistan!

So you don't think those who advocate blowing up innocent civilians as primary targets really should crawl under some rock and go away? The extremists that this thread is on about?

Having reservations about multicultural dogma does not equal racism unlike reservations about the colour of people's skin.

pablomakaveli

Kit1976 wrote: »

Why should they live in Afghanistan if they are British?

Just because they are born there does'nt mean they have an automatic love or sense of loyalty to the country. A lot of these extremists hate Britain and the British way of life. If someone develops a hatred of the place they reside in they should move to somewhere that better suits them. In this case the extremist muslims in Britian moving away from Britian to somewhere more suitable.

Rossibaby

dsmythy wrote: »

So you don't think those who advocate blowing up innocent civilians as primary targets really should crawl under some rock and go away? The extremists that this thread is on about?

Having reservations about multicultural dogma does not equal racism unlike reservations about the colour of people's skin.

I think that if it wasn't for America these extremists wouldn't need to be cast away under some rock.

Rossibaby

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Just because they are born there does'nt mean they have an automatic love or sense of loyalty to the country. A lot of these extremists hate Britain and the British way of life. If someone develops a hatred of the place they reside in they should move to somewhere that better suits them. In this case the extremist muslims in Britian moving away from Britian to somewhere more suitable.

Sometimes people don't have the opportunity to move to somewhere that would suit them better, thats a foolish remark really.

Surely the best course of action would be to try and influence people to your line of thinking through democratic means and change the country in which you reside for the better?