Situation in the jackpot last night!

Rekop dog

I went to the jackpot last night after a few drinks in town which is probably where is was going wrong to start with but I'll go on anyway! It was a particular hand which caused all the controversy! I'll give a little background on the villian who was at the centre of it all. He was clearly very drunk. On a couple of occasions he announced his holdings pre showdown and was warned by the dealer and TD about this.

In the hand in question, I open in 2nd position with K10 for 7euro. Two players call and villian gets in on the big blind and says something ridic like

‘I've k8 and I know I'm ahead because of the shìt you where raising with earlier'
To which I replied,
“cool mate, you know your hand is mucked if that's what you actually have"
The dealer echoed this but villian didn't seem to register this at all.

Flop obv come k 8 4 rainbow. I lead for 30, player next to me shoves for 80 and villian goes all in for 230. At this point I'm 99.99% sure he has k8 given he did this earlier a few times. So
what would have been a tough decision with k10 becomes completely irrelevant here. Now
matter what cards I show now I'm at least freerolling 150 euro as his cards will be dead. So
well aware of the inevitable car crash that was to come, I called

Flop and river come 2 4. I show my king 10, players to my left has ace high and greeted with multi fist pumps villian turns over k8:eek: he begins to scoop the pot until I interupt saying 'wow, his hand has to be mucked'. The dealer immediately calls the TD and he rules that the
pot is mine and ships it my way!

What follows was a very cringewothy argument between TD and villian that lasted for about
half an hour about the rulling. Villian wanted to see this rule in writing but it wasn't produced.
He thought there was some sort of collusion going on because he never heard of the rule and there was no evidence of it in the club. He got more angry ever minute and he passed some threats towards the TD

Meanwhile I begin to become a little guilty. I never have any problems taking money off drunk players and don't see anything morally wrong with it but this seemed different. My flop decision was not really poker based and I was just trying to take advantage of a harsh rulling to win
the pot and I genuinely believe the guy did not understand the rule even though we told him.

So with a combination of drunken festive kindness, guilt and probably stupidity I offered him
his initial chip stack pre hand back. He accepted this and the
situation finally calmed.

My main problem is the rulling itself. I think it's far more trouble than it's worth, it's a regular cause of disputes in games. Some dealers enforce it and some don't and there's a general grey area surrounding it, and in my experience in the gambling industry- drink reasonable amounts of money and grey areas do not make for good bed fellows. I'd just ask TD to either get rid of it entirely which I would because IMO it a silly rule or if not at least enforce it all the time.

And why do clubs not have a book or list of rules in them to diffuse situations like this??

Finally I do not by any means want this to turn into a jackpot bashing thread. I've played there on and off for four years and have never had any problems. I believe this would have arisen wherever I was last night!

strewelpeter

The dealer might have tried to explain the rule and the consequences to him when the flop came K8 seeing as how you were already bringing it up.

WP anyway.

Rekop dog

strewelpeter wrote: »

The dealer might have tried to explain the rule and the consequences to him when the flop came K8 .

She prob should of but I'd say it's tough to deal jackpot drunken games at the best of times not to mind over Christmas. I wouldn't level too much blame at her!

lee_arama

Withut sounding smart or owt, pretty much everyone knows, at least when playing a lot, that announcing your hand kills it.

You said it earlier in the evening, the dealer echoed, as did the TD/floor manager no doubt. Take the cash and keep stuum IMO. The guy was warned. Drunk poker is evil.

Rekop dog

lee_arama wrote: »

Withut sounding smart or owt, pretty much everyone knows, at least when playing a lot, that announcing your hand kills it.

You said it earlier in the evening, the dealer echoed, as did the TD/floor manager no doubt. Take the cash and keep stuum IMO. The guy was warned. Drunk poker is evil.

This is how I felt initially but only after thinking about it for a while I decided to give him the chips back!

Put yourself in this mythical situation. Say a player in first position announces his hand and raises it up. Everyone around to you on the big blind folds. You look down at 2 6 off. What do you do? Do you go along for the ride, call his pre flop raise, call his flop raise even if you completely missed, just because you know his hand will be declared dead when he shows it?

raheny red

The very same thing happened in the grange woodbine center at the jack-out game, player announced what he had while the betting was still going on. He announced what he had on the turn, which was a monster. Due to his stupidity he lost out on €140.

TommyGunne

You are no doubt in the right by the rulebook.

I really hate angleshooting like this though....

RoadSweeper

I don't like preflop if the table was full.

reilly110

should of called in

aodea

Look you took advantage of a situation and u shud not have been made feel guilty about this. I would never have given the money back. If he flipped over his hand on the river and u were still to act and u knew u had him beat would you bet even if orginally your plan of action was to check. Im not saying this is the same im just saying situations that allow you to make money within the laws of the game should always be taken advantage of!

califano

The player with the A high was a mentaller.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Is there anywhere on line i could find a list of these types of tournament/general casino play rules?

Moneymaker

Fold pre

But seriously it serves the drunk idiot right, it's not like he wasn't told enough times.

Moro Man

Is this one of these rules that has been implemented by mistake? (Bit like the show one show two card rule)

How can it benefit a player by telling the table his hand?

Therefore why is his hand dead?

Rekop dog

RoadSweeper wrote: »

I don't like preflop if the table was full.

It was only 6 handed at the time, I was on a bit of a heater at the time and had a few drinks on me so aggro is the only road I was going down. I would have put it in the theory section if I wanted the hand disected!

bubbleking

booooo urns angle shooting

MrPillowTalk

The rule is a pretty ridiculous one imo, rules like this only work against new players who dont know the ins and outs of live poker, similar with string betting. Its a bit of an angle shoot but it all depends on how clear the rule was made to the villain.

He has a very good point about the rule not being evidenced in writing, a full set of rules should be clearly displayed in all card clubs if they are to be respected at the tables.

Your hand being dead if you declare it is silly.

MrPillowTalk

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

Your hand being dead if you declare it is silly.

No it's not. People just declaring their hands ruins the game for a lot of people. If this guy was doing it a lot then it was clearly affecting the game as the A high calling guy proved. In a live game with casual players this is very bad for the game overall as it will drive players away imo.

As I understand it the player was warned by the dealer and then subsequently by the floor manager and told AGAIN during the hand. At that stage if he is too stupid to understand what he was being told then the old adage "a fool and his money" seems apt.

MrPillowTalk

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's not. People just declaring their hands ruins the game for a lot of people. If this guy was doing it a lot then it was clearly affecting the game as the A high calling guy proved. In a live game with casual players this is very bad for the game overall as it will drive players away imo.

As I understand it the player was warned by the dealer and then subsequently by the floor manager and told AGAIN during the hand. At that stage if he is too stupid to understand what he was being told then the old adage "a fool and his money" seems apt.

You dont think its easier to take someones money when you know what cards they have.

Plus its a speechplay tool you dont have to tell the truth about your hand but you should have the option if you deem the situation prudent.

Its a rule so open to angle shots that having the rule does far more damage than not having it imo.

bp_me

From TDA 2k9

It doesn't specifically mention the "truth" rule anywhere. The important one however would appear to be number 10. The player clearly had the winning hand.

Speech play is a part of the game. Frankly it's a stupid rule. No one ever believes anything anyone tells you at a table anyway so once you are in a hand it's fair game in my opinion. The common denominator in all these rules is a penalty always starts AFTER the hand.

8. Declarations
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.

10. Killing Winning Hand
Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.

41. No Disclosure
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

42. Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

MrPillowTalk

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

You dont think its easier to take someones money when you know what cards they have.

Plus its a speechplay tool you dont have to tell the truth about your hand but you should have the option if you deem the situation prudent.

Its a rule so open to angle shots that having the rule does far more damage than not having it imo.

I agree that it is easier and I appreciate it is a speechplay tool but, technically, there is no speechplay allowed in Dublin clubs either.

MrPillowTalk

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree that it is easier and I appreciate it is a speechplay tool but, technically, there is no speechplay allowed in Dublin clubs either.

Does that mean I get shipped the pot everytime someone speechplays me in a casino in Dublin? If I wasnt barred from every single one of them I might have to wreck a few floor peoples heads with that one.

Thats the point really the rules are so loose you cant enforce one and not the other, stick to the rules that make sense and are the least open to dispute imo.

The C Kid

OP is a douche.

AKQJ10

fck that OP resorting to angleshooting to beat a drunk out of his money is pretty lame.

kakak1

not going to get on my high horse about drunks playing poker but let me say

(1) op must be a right pri ck (even if it's christmas), he set up the drunk by using a local rule which could not be verified to the other player

(2) Jackpot have, as a business, a moral obligation not to take advantage of drunken customers

(3) This is not a rule of poker only a "house rule" It's a stupid rule & how the player should have been dealt with was to warn him if he disclosed his hand again he would be removed from the game.

Wasn't this rule also used at the GJP Deep Stack tournament about 2 years ago & the organisers said they would never ever use it again as a player was actually set up..............he was asked when he put in a big bet "Do you have Aces" and he said he did. TD was then called & the other player asked if he called & the player did indeed have Aces would his hand be dead, was told it would & he duly called & the aces hand was declared dead.

The Poker Room

I was under the impression this rule is in place to stop collusion.

Its happened at the club a few times, never killed a hand because of it but have given lots of warnings which tend to be ignored by drunk players anyway but very reluctant to kill a winning hand.

NicoSanty

I was playing in the jackpot when this happened and was talking to Dave (the manager) outside while the dealer was explaining what happened. She said the villain in question said "I think my K8 is better than your 910". She explained his hand would be dead if this was the case but clearly he ignored the warning and previous warnings he had been given and I think its justified that the OP won the pot.

I play in the jackpot regularly and have seen instances of this before where a player declared his hand and his hand was called dead and it has caused some big arguments and debate among us regs in the jackpot. The problem is the rule is not enforced regularly enough but does help to prevent collusion and is forms part of the "No Speech Play" rule in the jackpot and other cardrooms in Dublin. Often warnings are given and this is often the biggest problem with this rule in the jackpot because some of the poker managers don't enforce it strongly enough.

Judging by the villains reaction, the bouncers were going to have to drag him out if the OP hadn't given him his money back but I still wouldn't have him the money. Rules are rules whether we like them or not and punishments are there for a reason.

Ace2007

NicoSanty wrote: »

Rules are rules whether we like them or not and punishments are there for a reason.

If a rule is going to be enforced then everyone has the right to see the rules in writing:

Rekop dog wrote: »

Villian wanted to see this rule in writing but it wasn't produced.

As for the hand itself, OP was out of line (and indeed knows this)

MrPillowTalk

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

Does that mean I get shipped the pot everytime someone speechplays me in a casino in Dublin? If I wasnt barred from every single one of them I might have to wreck a few floor peoples heads with that one.

Thats the point really the rules are so loose you cant enforce one and not the other, stick to the rules that make sense and are the least open to dispute imo.

Look, I wasn't saying he was right to call it dead or anything. It's still a ****ty thing to do. I was just speaking about the rule, not the morality of the bloody thing.

Speech play rules and the string bet rules are the most often abused for angleshoots and I think both should be changed but that doesn't mean if I string bet I won't get called on it.

I think common sense should have prevailed here from the floor (i.e the drunk being told, next time you declare your hand it WILL be dead no matter what, you had a close call there and this time you are just getting your money back) but I don't think the ruling itself was totally out of order if he had been warned sufficiently.

Hank Scorpio

i dont think you were out of order, hes the one who screwed up if anything

oldjude

omg i for sure would not have felt guilty or given any $$ back.

smoothcall

oldjude wrote: »

omg i for sure would not have felt guilty or given any $$ back.

Ruthless

smoothcall

Stupid rule, never liked it. Altough it's very rarely enforced. Fair play giving the loot back...

pkr_ennis

How can this happen? What a shocking rule! KITN's all around.

Jaysoose

OP is an angleshooting douche

Chucky the tree

Can someone explain how exactly OP is angleshooting? I suppose all the people in OP situation would have folded on the flop knowing well villain hand would be declared dead? :rolleyes:

Jaysoose

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Can someone explain how exactly OP is angleshooting? I suppose all the people in OP situation would have folded on the flop knowing well villain hand would be declared dead? :rolleyes:

ahem

“cool mate, you know your hand is mucked if that's what you actually have"

Hank Scorpio

Jaysoose wrote: »

ahem

“cool mate, you know your hand is mucked if that's what you actually have"

yah, nothing got to do with the villian pronouncing his hand over and over again ruining their poker game.

Chucky the tree

Jaysoose wrote: »

ahem

“cool mate, you know your hand is mucked if that's what you actually have"

So telling a player the rules is angleshooting?

Jaysoose

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So telling a player the rules is angleshooting?

Why didnt the op call the TD over after the villan declared his hand? as opposed to waiting till the hand was over = angleshooting.

Hmm i wonder.

Jaysoose

nuxxx wrote: »

yah, nothing got to do with the villian pronouncing his hand over and over again ruining their poker game.

CALL THE TD.....or wait till the money was in the middle...i wonder.

NewApproach

Rules are the rules, whether to take advantage and angleshoot is another thing entirely and I'm not going to get involved in that debate, but surely by deciding to play the hand the way the OP did (angleshoot), and then give some money back, is clearly a bit of a morality contradiction

ocallagh

Jaysoose wrote: »

Why didnt the op call the TD over after the villan declared his hand? as opposed to waiting till the hand was over = angleshooting.

Hmm i wonder.

he might not have had K8

Jaysoose

ocallagh wrote: »

he might not have had K8

In the context of ops explanation of the situation its obvious he did.

CHD

All the people who call the OP a angleshooter would have done it themselves STFU you muppets.

Jam-Fly

This is the first case I've heard of the rule actually being enforced and a player with the best hand losing the pot due to declaring his hand.

the 'no truth' rule is a ridiculous rule imo.

As far as a I know, in clubs/tournaments where the 'no truth' rule is implemented, a player is allowed say (assuming his hand is AA) "I probably have pocket aces", "I might have pocket aces", "It would be safe to say I have pocket aces" etc., but you (technically) cannot say "I have pocket aces". If you say "I have pocket aces", your hand is dead. You can say anything else you want in a HU pot apart from direct declaration of your hand.


Can anyone explain to me why the rule is there? This is not the rule of speech play, this is the specific rule of truthfully declaring your hand. So, if you're against speech play in it's entirety, that's fair enough, and I can see where you're coming from. But what I'm asking is, if speech play IS allowed, why on earth is declaring your hand not allowed but all other speech play is allowed?

a147pro

kakak1 wrote: »

Wasn't this rule also used at the GJP Deep Stack tournament about 2 years ago & the organisers said they would never ever use it again as a player was actually set up..............he was asked when he put in a big bet "Do you have Aces" and he said he did. TD was then called & the other player asked if he called & the player did indeed have Aces would his hand be dead, was told it would & he duly called & the aces hand was declared dead.

the biggest rip off since christ got nailed to that cross what lowlife was responsible for this

kakak1

CHD wrote: »

All the people who call the OP a angleshooter would have done it themselves STFU you muppets.

what a stupid statement

a-k-47

a147pro wrote: »

the biggest rip off since christ got nailed to that cross what lowlife was responsible for this

ida killed the bastard

MegaSin

The drunk was told a number of times before the hand and during so tough ****.

Although the OP did use the rules to gain in a some what unfair manner. Drunk should take this as a lesson NOT to play drunk and listen while you are being warned.

CHD

kakak1 wrote: »

what a stupid statement

Your a stupid statement