prosecute them?

miseeire

Does anybody agree with me when I say those who brought our country to its knees,I include politicians,regulator,bankers,developers and whoever else.Do not send them to prison but strip every penny from them,sell their property and other assets.A bit like in the old west when rustlers were hung up as a warning to others.It just might work.

ei.sdraob

in this country you are innocent until proven guilty

if we ignore the above its a slippery slope to hell

anyways strip them of what assets? im sure majority stashed money/assets abroad by now

if these bunch are found guilty (thats even if theres an investigation in first place) then building stone walls on some island out west would be a great punishment

FlutterinBantam

Count me in on that one.

woodseb

Two words.

Due Process

seclachi

miseeire wrote: »

Does anybody agree with me when I say those who brought our country to its knees,I include politicians,regulator,bankers,developers and whoever else.Do not send them to prison but strip every penny from them,sell their property and other assets.A bit like in the old west when rustlers were hung up as a warning to others.It just might work.

Yeah, bring back wild west law, hang out those bankers out to dry. While were at it we should get those people who got huge mortgages for overpriced houses, people with big credit card bills, anybody who voted FF etc etc.

Dont get me wrong, there are responsible people out there who are to blame, and in some cases did break the law or regulations. I think though most just did there jobs, built houses, sold mortgages, did there parish pump politics within the bounds of the law.

andstony

Just remember what the French did to their oppressors. Set up a guillotine on Collage Green for our new aristocrats. See then how long it takes them to renounce and repent their wrong doings.

Dirk Gently

miseeire wrote: »

Does anybody agree with me when I say those who brought our country to its knees,I include politicians,regulator,bankers,developers and whoever else.Do not send them to prison but strip every penny from them,sell their property and other assets.

assuming they've been given due process then all of the above, and then re-house them in St Teresas Gardens in Dublins inner city.

chris85

seclachi wrote: »

Yeah, bring back wild west law, hang out those bankers out to dry. While were at it we should get those people who got huge mortgages for overpriced houses, people with big credit card bills, anybody who voted FF etc etc.

Dont get me wrong, there are responsible people out there who are to blame, and in some cases did break the law or regulations. I think though most just did there jobs, built houses, sold mortgages, did there parish pump politics within the bounds of the law.

+1

i completely agree there were some banks who made bad decisions and developers that fecked up this country but what about the normal everyday joe soap who bought into the big mortgages and so forth which created the property bubble which was just waiting to burst.

I agree we need to ensure the banking crisis never happens again and do this by ensuring the right people make the right decisions in future.

There were many people who got huge mortgages by saying they were earning more than they were.

Let this banking crisis be a kick up the hole for all of us to learn from previous mistakes. Lets stop blaming and try get this economy kickstarted again.

Kev_ps3

miseeire wrote: »

Does anybody agree with me when I say those who brought our country to its knees,I include politicians,regulator,bankers,developers and whoever else.Do not send them to prison but strip every penny from them,sell their property and other assets.A bit like in the old west when rustlers were hung up as a warning to others.It just might work.

We should strip every penny from them....then put them in prison:pac:

bonkey

People who broke the law should be dealt with accordingly.

Bad business decisions...even disastrously bad business decisions are not necessarily in violation of any law.

As for people learning from mistakes...its a great idea. The first thing is for people to understand that they made mistakes. It would be my opinion that most people who have made mistakes which led to the crisis are more concerned in assigning blame to others then in acknowledging and learning from their own errors.

rowa

there was an ordinary man sent to prison for having no licence for his pet poodle a few weeks ago , and this crowd walk away scot free AND get bailed out by the taxpayers they ripped off in the first place ! and get to pocket millions , there is one law for the fianna fail croneys and another for the ordinary citizens of this island , personally i think its all sick .

madoff got jailed in the usa and not for 6 months in some holiday camp either , the same should apply here !

if fianna fail somehow manage to buy there way back into power in this country , i will emigrate .

Paulzx

clown bag wrote: »

and then re-house them in St Teresas Gardens in Dublins inner city.

They'd only lower the tone of the place

RGS

I agee with Bonkey--bad decisions are not criminal offences.

Any banker will state that at the time they made a business decision which would make money for the bank, making a profit is not a crime neither is making a loss a crime.

digme

seclachi wrote: »

Yeah, bring back wild west law, hang out those bankers out to dry. While were at it we should get those people who got huge mortgages for overpriced houses, people with big credit card bills, anybody who voted FF etc etc.

Dont get me wrong, there are responsible people out there who are to blame, and in some cases did break the law or regulations. I think though most just did there jobs, built houses, sold mortgages, did there parish pump politics within the bounds of the law.

Ordinary people didn't ruin the country--bankers did.

Seth Brundle

digme wrote: »

Ordinary people didn't ruin the country--bankers did.

My view:
Bankers did what they were allowed to do (by the regulator)
The regulator failed to do what he should have done due to political interference.
The politicians caused this. However, the likes of Bertie, and the rest of the FF Mafia are not just to blame. We are supposed to have an opposition to monitor and debate the country. Was the fact that people were being given 100+% loans which were way more than the traditional 2.5 + 1 ever raised in the Dáil?
Why was the wasteful spending in the likes of FÁS never revealed - was an investigation called for?

digme

Very good points.
I'm aware of the politicians and their loans. but if a bank gives out 35 times the money they actually have, don't you think that's what ruined us?
I mean the money they gave to people wasn't even there,it is just a number on the computer.Were we ever a prosperous country?All we did was accumulate debt.
I hate the banks, i think they should be all blown up, they ruin everything.
From the moment your born, your ****ed basically.

hiorta

So many folk thought they saw opportunities for increasing their personal worth and dived in headlong.
The result of greedy thinking is now evident.
Those who decided they had no need to get caught up in the madness are now reaping the benefit.
This is perhaps one oif the best opportunities to absorb a basic, but valuable lesson in both economics and in Life: there are NO free lunches, not now, not ever.

No doubt the wee smart thinkers are already seeking to exploit the current situation and in time they will repeat the whole mess.

LostinBlanch

Isn't the whole idea of jailng those responsible for ruining the country purely "pour encourager les autres" and to stop other c**ts doing this to us again in 10 or 15 years time?

We need to find the will to do someone thing first of all. In a proper functioning society white collar criminals actually go to jail when found guilty. How many have here? What? You can't remember? Strange, neither can I.

hiorta

The causes come in pairs:

For every borrower there must be a lender and for every lender there must be borrowers. No arms were twisted. Folk wanted and got far more than they could comfortably handle, the normal limiting criteria were waived and we see the result.
As far as 'white collar' criminals going to prison, the justice system should apply equally and fairly to all - if it doesn't it is an injustice system. If this is the case, raise Cain.

femur61

The politicians will never allow prosecutions or have a banking enquirey, too much at stake for them. And the people will nver stand up to them it will continue to be rotten at the core.

Seth Brundle

hiorta wrote: »

The causes come in pairs:

For every borrower there must be a lender and for every lender there must be borrowers. No arms were twisted. Folk wanted and got far more than they could comfortably handle, the normal limiting criteria were waived and we see the result.
As far as 'white collar' criminals going to prison, the justice system should apply equally and fairly to all - if it doesn't it is an injustice system. If this is the case, raise Cain.

Yes but we were supposed to have a regulator who was supposed to regulate the banks!
What we actually had was a 'regulator' with his head in the sand whilst the banks were willy-nilly giving out loans in the knowledge that should something go tits-up then the government could be called upon to offer help.
Why did the regulator decide to allow banks to do what they liked? Was the regulator grossly incompetent or was he told by higher powers such as the then Taoiseach to turn a blind eye?

hiorta

"""Why did the regulator decide to allow banks to do what they liked?"""

That's the question to which answers should be repeatedly demanded from politicians and media.

baubl

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea of jailng those responsible for ruining the country purely "pour encourager les autres" and to stop other c**ts doing this to us again in 10 or 15 years time?

We need to find the will to do someone thing first of all. In a proper functioning society white collar criminals actually go to jail when found guilty. How many have here? What? You can't remember? Strange, neither can I.

You all know, these people will not go to jail, they are all the people who took or gave brown envelopes in the first place
you and i would be sent for not paying a tv licence or owing a bank 10.000 euro

Amigomenor

Bankers and Builders have destroyed the country, just the way it rolls.

Seth Brundle

baubl wrote: »

You all know, these people will not go to jail, they are all the people who took or gave brown envelopes in the first place
you and i would be sent for not paying a tv licence or owing a bank 10.000 euro

Its a viscous circle. They won't go to jail because we are so used to this country being run by corrupt politicians. We are so used to corrupt leaders because its been like that for so long.
We really need a change of personnel at the top. IMO, nobody who worked with Charlie should have been allowed to continue they were that polluted from him. Now that the head of the Drumcondra Mafia's colours have been shown to us all, the same belief could be held!

Podman

+1
The super rich and powerful will never go to jail or even pay for wrongdoings. Usually a resignation is accepted in the case of Bankers, clergy, politicians or pedophile judges. Then relocated to somewhere leafy, quiet and residential, with a big pension.

Rest assured that if there is another revolution in this country, they will be first up against the wall.

callig

kbannon wrote: »

Yes but we were supposed to have a regulator who was supposed to regulate the banks!

OP mentioned the regulator.

miseeire wrote: »

Does anybody agree with me when I say those who brought our country to its knees,I include politicians,regulator,bankers,developers and whoever else the borrowers.

fyp

The truth is borrowers are as much to blame as anyone.

ilovelamp2000

bonkey wrote: »

People who broke the law should be dealt with accordingly.

Bad business decisions...even disastrously bad business decisions are not necessarily in violation of any law.

As for people learning from mistakes...its a great idea. The first thing is for people to understand that they made mistakes. It would be my opinion that most people who have made mistakes which led to the crisis are more concerned in assigning blame to others then in acknowledging and learning from their own errors.

I agree with you.

They should have been forced to suffer the consequences of those bad business decisions though.

Given that we're willing to risk the country's future to bail out the banks, we're giving them the incentive the **** up again because they know we'll be on the hook for their mistakes.

ilovelamp2000

kbannon wrote: »

My view:
Bankers did what they were allowed to do (by the regulator)
The regulator failed to do what he should have done due to political interference.
The politicians caused this. However, the likes of Bertie, and the rest of the FF Mafia are not just to blame. We are supposed to have an opposition to monitor and debate the country. Was the fact that people were being given 100+% loans which were way more than the traditional 2.5 + 1 ever raised in the Dáil?
Why was the wasteful spending in the likes of FÁS never revealed - was an investigation called for?

Wasn't it Shane Ross, independent Senator, that revealed the nonsense going on in FAS ?

I don't see how the opposition are as/more culpable than Fianna Fail in the whole thing. Fianna Fail were the ones with the power to make things happen, it was their leader that was trousering money from businessmen all over the country. And we're seeing lately just how cosy the relationships between the failed insitutions and Fianna Fail is lately with the revelations that FF members were given special treatment when it came to loans. I'd love to see what Lenihan's ties with Anglo are.

P. Breathnach

Rosco1982 wrote: »

... I'd love to see what Lenihan's ties with Anglo are.

Are there any, or is this baseless innuendo?

femur61

Rosco1982 wrote: »

. I'd love to see what Lenihan's ties with Anglo are.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out the reasoning of not pushing ahead with an enquirey

LostinBlanch

I'd wonder more about Cowen et als ties with Anglo. He is leading the charge to stop any enquiry.

jimmycrackcorm

We need a tribunal!!! Our Barristers and lawyers are feeling the pain and the media needs a guaranteed 10 years of news to report. The good news is it will only cost €300-500 million

Podman

It's obvious that if leaders are incapable of leading, they should be removed.

But when those same "leaders" are responsible for consistent mismanagement, corruption, and personal favoritism that goes against the constitution (whats left of it), they should have to answer for it.

We should get Judges from other countries to handle this.

deadhead13

We have Brian Cowen spinning away like mad, telling us that not having an inquiry is really in our own best interest because it could "damage confidence in Ireland". Whereas, you would have thought the best way to restore confidence would be an investigation into what happened, holding those responsible accountable (if not jail then at least the sack) and putting checks and balances in place so this won't happen again.

But the people with the power to set up that inquiry are also some of the people who would be subject to it. So, there is a clear conflict of interest here and I don't expect anything to happen until this shower are voted out of Government.

femur61

Are people not getting angry yet? i sure am but really don't know how to do anything about it.

CFlower

They worked the system for their own benefit. Certainly there should be a speedy examination of whether company or other law was broken and a swift jail or other suitable sentence if it was. The problem is bigger than the Irish law or Irish politicians and bankers.

The system, and the law, need to be changed. They are not up to the job.

CFlower

deadhead13 wrote: »

We have Brian Cowen spinning away like mad, telling us that not having an inquiry is really in our own best interest because it could "damage confidence in Ireland". Whereas, you would have thought the best way to restore confidence would be an investigation into what happened, holding those responsible accountable (if not jail then at least the sack) and putting checks and balances in place so this won't happen again.

But the people with the power to set up that inquiry are also some of the people who would be subject to it. So, there is a clear conflict of interest here and I don't expect anything to happen until this shower are voted out of Government.

+ 1

old boy

it will never happen, dont tell me that not one member of the opposition has not been involved. nice and sqeaky clean there has to be at least one under the law of averages. please remember it is the norm for politicians to keep their arses covered

Sleepy

hiorta wrote: »

So many folk thought they saw opportunities for increasing their personal worth and dived in headlong.
The result of greedy thinking is now evident.
Those who decided they had no need to get caught up in the madness are now reaping the benefit.
This is perhaps one oif the best opportunities to absorb a basic, but valuable lesson in both economics and in Life: there are NO free lunches, not now, not ever.

Unfortunately, quite a large number of Ireland's professional classes got that free lunch. Any of them with the same sense many posters on here had to recognise a bubble would have stashed their money. Many may have lost chunks of it through poor share investing but many others would have either invested sensibly (I know my mother managed some sensible foreign property deals before later getting her QFA) or stashed significant sums in high yield investment accounts in the very banks we're now bailing out.

I don't think any lesson will be learned from this boom is this: if you pull a stroke, be careful where you put the money afterwards.

CFlower

Sleepy wrote: »

Unfortunately, quite a large number of Ireland's professional classes got that free lunch. Any of them with the same sense many posters on here had to recognise a bubble would have stashed their money. Many may have lost chunks of it through poor share investing but many others would have either invested sensibly (I know my mother managed some sensible foreign property deals before later getting her QFA) or stashed significant sums in high yield investment accounts in the very banks we're now bailing out.

I don't think any lesson will be learned from this boom is this: if you pull a stroke, be careful where you put the money afterwards.

An interesting, infuriating and deeply cynical post.

The best case I have heard for serious and expertly targetted taxation and levies on the rich.

Between 2005 and 2007 Irish debt doubled, according to MacErlrean, the AIB whistleblower. He also says most of it went to less than 50 people. Company law prohibits reckless trading. If current law isn't strong enough to deal with people who obtained loans without a viable business plan and without sufficient collateral then the law should be changed. The Banks also took vast amounts of commission for lending money to thousands of people without due care to ensure that they were in the position to pay it back - after the Banks themselves had sold off their property at the top of the market. These people - bankers and a handful of developers/investors - have quite possibly created conditions for sovereign default by the Irish State and undoubtedly many people will be severely impoverished who did not create this risk. People will die, from lack of proper health and other services.

The majority has been financially assaulted by a tiny minority. This has to be accounted for and it won't happen under either an FF or FG government.

Scofflaw

CFlower wrote: »

An interesting, infuriating and deeply cynical post.

The best case I have heard for serious and expertly targetted taxation and levies on the rich.

Between 2005 and 2007 Irish debt doubled, according to MacElready, the Central Bank whistleblower. He also says most of it went to less than 50 people. Company law prohibits reckless trading. If current law isn't strong enough to deal with people who obtained loans without a viable business plan and without sufficient collateral then the law should be changed. The Banks also took vast amounts of commission for lending money to thousands of people without due care to ensure that they were in the position to pay it back - after the Banks themselves had sold off their property at the top of the market. These people - bankers and a handful of developers/investors - have quite possibly created conditions for sovereign default by the Irish State and undoubtedly many people will be severely impoverished who did not create this risk. People will die, from lack of proper health and other services.

The majority has been financially assaulted by a tiny minority. This has to be accounted for and it won't happen under either an FF or FG government.

Might one ask for a source for that?

cordially,
Scofflaw

View

CFlower wrote: »

This has to be accounted for and it won't happen under either an FF or FG government.

Well, in that case, we might as well forget about it. Whatever the chances of seeing FF reduced to a shadow of their former self, there is zero chance that both FF and FG will be.

View

Podman wrote: »

It's obvious that if leaders are incapable of leading, they should be removed.

But when those same "leaders" are responsible for consistent mismanagement, corruption, and personal favoritism that goes against the constitution (whats left of it), they should have to answer for it.

Other countries also have all of the above to greater or lesser degrees. The only remedy to the problem is that the leaders "should have to answer for it" at the ballot box.

Problem is, the electorate will probably return most of those who governed us so poorly with very healthy majorities. It seems to be actually benefical for many politicans here, to be regarded as a bit of a chancer and/or dodgy. We get what we vote for.

CFlower

Scofflaw wrote: »

Might one ask for a source for that?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Certainly, but this is the best I can do, as my source was RTE radio about a week ago.

It is well known that most of the large scale lending damage was done in 2-3 years, and by a small number of borrowers. NAMA targetted 50 main borrowers for its initial phase of "taking in charge". The Anglo Irish Bank, a very small operation, accounts for nearly half of the NAMA bad debt.

http://www.tribune.ie/business/article/2009/may/24/whistleblower-mcerlean-is-vindicated/

CFlower

View wrote: »

Well, in that case, we might as well forget about it. Whatever the chances of seeing FF reduced to a shadow of their former self, there is zero chance that both FF and FG will be.

Difficult, I know, but the alternative is to build a new leadership that will act under the control of the majority.

Eoinsheehy

I'm undoubhtedly in. Infact can I be the person with the whip?

Sleepy

CFlower wrote: »

An interesting, infuriating and deeply cynical post.

The best case I have heard for serious and expertly targetted taxation and levies on the rich.

I don't think the targeting is possible tbh. Maybe a huge hike in DIRT? Might at least get the money invested into our economy but tbh, it's more likely to result in the assets getting invested abroad and further liquidity problems for the banks.

Targeting the rich, while popular with the middle and working class doesn't seem to have the potential to close the deficit via taxation and would probably be counter-active. I'd certainly like to see most, if not all, of the tax dodges removed though.

I was actually an optimist when I left school, the last ten years of living in Irish society has regretably given me no good reason to be anything but cynical

baubl

is there a connection between the government and the golden circle , ie, are there members of government, members of the golden circle

CFlower

baubl wrote: »

is there a connection between the government and the golden circle , ie, are there members of government, members of the golden circle

It used to be located, for part of the year, in the tent at the Galway races.

Podman

Yes.

I wonder if any of the government have taken any cuts whatsoever in this budget..?

They'd spend more on lunch than I'd have to survive on for a week, they represent no-one but themselves, big business, and the Illuminazi.