Israel admits organs theft

TMoreno

Surprise, surprise... Israel has admitted harvesting organs from dead bodies in the 1990s, including from Palestinians, without permission of their families.

Full story on the Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1221/breaking7.htm
Israel admits organ harvesting

Israel has admitted that in the 1990s, its forensic pathologists harvested organs from dead bodies, including Palestinians, without permission of their families.

The issue emerged with publication of an interview with the then-head of Israel's Abu Kabir forensic institute, Dr Jehuda Hiss.

The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic, who released it because of a huge controversy last summer over an allegation by a Swedish newspaper that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs. Israel hotly denied the charge.

Parts of the interview were broadcast on Israel's Channel 2 TV over the weekend. In it, Dr Hiss said, "We started to harvest corneas ... Whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family."

The Channel 2 report said that in the 1990s, forensic specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

In a response to the TV report, the Israeli military confirmed that the practice took place. "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer," the military said in a statement quoted by Channel 2.

In the interview, Dr Hiss described how his doctors would mask the removal of corneas from bodies. "We'd glue the eyelid shut," he said. "We wouldn't take corneas from families we knew would open the eyelids."

Many of the details in the interview first came to light in 2004, when Dr Hiss was dismissed as head of the forensic institute because of irregularities over use of organs there. Israel's attorney general dropped criminal charges against him, and Dr Hiss still works as chief pathologist at the institute. He had no comment on the TV report.

Hiss became director of the institute in 1988. He said in the interview that the practice of harvesting organs without permission began in the "early 1990s." However, he also said that military surgeons removed a thin layer of skin from bodies as early as 1987 to treat burn victims. Dr Hiss said he believed that was done with family consent. The harvesting ended in 2000, he said.

Complaints against the institute, where autopsies of dead bodies are performed, at the time of Hiss' dismissal came from relatives of Israeli soldiers and civilians as well as Palestinians. The bodies belonged to people who died from various causes, including diseases, accidents and Israeli-Palestinian violence, but there has been no evidence to back up the claim in the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet that Israeli soldiers killed Palestinians for their organs. Angry Israeli officials called the report "anti-Semitic."

Nancy Scheper-Hughes, a professor of anthropology at the University of California-Berkeley, said she decided to make the interview public in the wake of the Aftonbladet controversy, which raised diplomatic tensions between Israel and Sweden and prompted Sweden's foreign minister to call off a visit to the Jewish state.

Ms Scheper-Hughes said that while Palestinians were "by a long shot" not the only ones affected by the practice in the 1990s, she felt the interview must be made public now because "the symbolism, you know, of taking skin of the population considered to be the enemy, (is) something, just in terms of its symbolic weight, that has to be reconsidered."

While insisting that all organ harvesting was done with permission, Israel's Health Ministry told Channel 2, "The guidelines at that time were not clear." It added, "For the last 10 years, Abu Kabir has been working according to ethics and Jewish law."

AP

The funny thing is that Foxnews reveals this information on the Health section as if it had nothing to do with the current conflict.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580701,00.html?test=latestnews

wes

Well, I have to say I was actually surprised that the Israeli's actually did something like this. This is pretty messed up, even for the Middle East. I am not surprised that no one is in prison for it.

Incidently, I wonder if in light of this, that the previous accusation made in a Swedish news paper regarding organ theft will be revisited, as in light of this addmission, it does give that story (rightly or wrongly) more credibility.

TMoreno

wes wrote: »

Well, I have to say I was actually surprised that the Israeli's actually did something like this. This is pretty messed up, even for the Middle East. I am not surprised that no one is in prison for it.

Incidently, I wonder if in light of this, that the previous accusation made in a Swedish news paper regarding organ theft will be revisited, as in light of this addmission, it does give that story (rightly or wrongly) more credibility.

Before this revelation, anyone who would dare to talk about this subject would be called antisemitic. Do you remember Donald Boströms the Swedish journalist who revealed this story last summer? Where are the Zionists supporters now? Will they also justify that? Could you imagine the British harvesting organs of Irish people without the consent of their families, during the "Troubles" and nobody allowed to talk about it? Or the French during the war in Algeria? Or the Americans in Vietnam?

Boston

You seem to be only outraged by the fact they where doing it to Palestines and completely indifferent to the fact they where doing it to Israelis as well. Futhermore they were doing it to people who fought and died for the state of Israel.

I can't find a link at the moment but I remember reading a few years ago about similar practices being carried out in Irish Hospitals.

wes

Boston wrote: »

You seem to be only outraged by the fact they where doing it to Palestines and completely indifferent to the fact they where doing it to Israelis as well. Futhermore they were doing it to people who fought and died for the state of Israel.

Interesting jump in reasoning there. I condemned the practice out right, and didn't mention any particular group of victims.

Still, I will say them doing it to Palestinians, is a lot more messed up, considering Israel's position of occupier over them, and then there is Israel's racism towards them as well, which makes it a whole lot more sickening imho.

Still, regardless the entire thing is incredibly appling and does led credibility to other allegations of this nature.

Boston wrote: »

I can't find a link at the moment but I remember reading a few years ago about similar practices being carried out in Irish Hospitals.

So we stole the organs of people we were occupying? Sure, part of Israel activity may be similar to activities done elsewhere, but when it comes to the Palestinians victims of organ theft, it is very different.

TMoreno

Boston wrote: »

You seem to be only outraged by the fact they where doing it to Palestines and completely indifferent to the fact they where doing it to Israelis as well. Futhermore they were doing it to people who fought and died for the state of Israel.

I can't find a link at the moment but I remember reading a few years ago about similar practices being carried out in Irish Hospitals.

It shocks me for any human being regardless of his origin! However, when this information was revealed, the answer from the Israeli was not: " we do it on Israeli people too." No! They said it's a blood libel (over used argument), to avoid to answer to embarrassing questions.
An independent investigation about this and about other things is needed because I do not trust Israel.

Manic Moran

You know, on a fundamental level, I don't really see the problem. It's not as if the dead person needs them any more.

Should someone really be allowed to die or suffer because the next of kin of a compatible donor corpse isn't able to be found to give permission?

NTM

Boston

wes wrote: »

Interesting jump in reasoning there. I condemned the practice out right, and didn't mention any particular group of victims.

What makes you think the post refers to you.

wes wrote: »

Still, I will say them doing it to Palestinians, is a lot more messed up, considering Israel's position of occupier over them, and then there is Israel's racism towards them as well, which makes it a whole lot more sickening imho.

Obviously wasn't racially motivated. If it was they wouldn't have been using the organs of an "inferior race". For me the most messed up aspect is the taken of organs from dead soldiers, it shows a complete betrayal.

wes wrote: »

So we stole the organs of people we were occupying? Sure, part of Israel activity may be similar to activities done elsewhere, but when it comes to the Palestinians victims of organ theft, it is very different.

No, we stole the organs of still born babies and never told the parents.

Boston

Manic Moran wrote: »

You know, on a fundamental level, I don't really see the problem. It's not as if the dead person needs them any more.

Should someone really be allowed to die or suffer because the next of kin of a compatible donor corpse isn't able to be found to give permission?

NTM

As far as I understand it, the organs of the dead cannot be transplanted. These people would have had to have been alive when the organs were harvested.

wes

Boston wrote: »

What makes you think the post refers to you.

It was directly after mine.

Boston wrote: »

Obviously wasn't racially motivated. If it was they wouldn't have been using the organs of an "inferior race". For me the most messed up aspect is the taken of organs from dead soldiers, it shows a complete betrayal.

So, you don't see any issue with stealing the organs of people that the Israeli's have complete control over?

Boston wrote: »

No, we stole the organs of still born babies and never told the parents.

So, no one was jailed for this then, like in Israel? The only way for this to be the same, is if we didn't put anyone in jail like Israel did. Also, we didn't accuse anyone of blood libels or anything else either btw.

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

You know, on a fundamental level, I don't really see the problem. It's not as if the dead person needs them any more.

Great, so Israel shouldn't enact a opt out law for its citizens, but seeing as some of the stolen organ's belonged to Palestinians, they wouldn't be covered under such a system.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Should someone really be allowed to die or suffer because the next of kin of a compatible donor corpse isn't able to be found to give permission?

Sure, if some of those organ's also go to Palestinians in the occupied terroritories. If there is going to be theft, they should benefit too, but I think it fair to say that only Israeli's benefited from this thievery. Lets not forget the foreign workers as well btw. If an Israeli's organs were stolen in a similar manner, you can be sure they wouldn't let such a crime lie.

Then there is the betrayal to there own people. Someone fight and dies for Israel, and then has there organs stolen. What kind of respect does that show for people who are suppose to fight for there country?

Quick question, how would you feel if a US soldier killed in Iraq body was taken and there organs stolen? How would that go down in the US? Is it ok to steal your enemies organs?

wes

Boston wrote: »

As far as I understand it, the organs of the dead cannot be transplanted. These people would have had to have been alive when the organs were harvested.

Skin is an organ, and they harvested it, as per the article.

TMoreno

Manic Moran wrote: »

You know, on a fundamental level, I don't really see the problem. It's not as if the dead person needs them any more.

Should someone really be allowed to die or suffer because the next of kin of a compatible donor corpse isn't able to be found to give permission?

NTM

On a fundamental level, you should imagine somebody killing a member of your family and stealing his or her organs. Would you say it's OK?

AARRRGH

Manic Moran wrote: »

You know, on a fundamental level, I don't really see the problem. It's not as if the dead person needs them any more.

Should someone really be allowed to die or suffer because the next of kin of a compatible donor corpse isn't able to be found to give permission?

NTM

The problem with your way of thinking is where do you draw the line?

Should wig companies be allowed take their hair?

Should jewellers be allowed take their gold teeth?

Necrophelia...?!

You have to respect people's rights and dignity. As the moderator of the military forum -- and obviously someone with an interest in acts of war -- it is very sad that you can't understand this.

Boston

wes wrote: »

It was directly after mine.

No it wasn't. Have you read the thread?

wes wrote: »

So, you don't see any issue with stealing the organs of people that the Israeli's have complete control over?

That kinda answers the first question. The Israelis haven't complete control over any one.

wes wrote: »

So, no one was jailed for this then, like in Israel? The only way for this to be the same, is if we didn't put anyone in jail like Israel did. Also, we didn't accuse anyone of blood libels or anything else either btw.

No one went to jail here.

wes wrote: »

Skin is an organ, and they harvested it, as per the article.

Did you even read my post. Are you too busy trying to find flaw with "the other side" that you are unable to understand what I said? Yes skin is an organ, but as far as I understand, for the purposes of transplanting, organs need to be taken from a living donor. Manic Moran made reference to taking organs from dead donors to "save lives". This doesn't happen, as far as I understand it.

Christ, this "debate" is going to get tiring very quickly if you can't be bother reading whats posted.

Le King

Let's see the Zionist supporters defend this. As per usual, they'll find a way...

Makes me sick.

wes

Boston wrote: »

No it wasn't. Have you read the thread?

Your right, my browser showed the page weird for a while.

Boston wrote: »

That kinda answers the first question. The Israelis haven't complete control over any one.

The Israeli's have complete control over the lives of the Palestinians actually, you know hence the occupation. Now, they don't control the entirety of there day to day existence, like when they eat or anything, but to deny that Israel is in defacto control of the occupied territories is ridiculous.

Boston wrote: »

No one went to jail here.

You have link to this then?

Boston wrote: »

Did you even read my post. Are you too busy trying to find flaw with "the other side" that you are unable to understand what I said? Yes skin is an organ, but as far as I understand, for the purposes of transplanting, organs need to be taken from a living donor.

Seems to me that you were trying to pick holes into the claim, and all I was doing was pointing out that skin is an organ.

Boston wrote: »

Manic Moran made reference to taking organs from dead donors to "save lives". This doesn't happen, as far as I understand it.

Fair enough.

Boston

wes wrote: »

You have link to this then?

Thats three times you've failed to read my posts. I'm finished replying to you.

wes

Boston wrote: »

Thats three times you've failed to read my posts. I'm finished replying to you.

So you can't find the link then? I had a look for it and couldn't find one.

Also, I read you post just fine, you said no one went to jail here for stealing the organs of stillborn babies, and I went looking for a link to the story and couldn't find one, so I asked you, as your the one bringing this up.

The only such story I can find is one from the UK:

'Secret disposal' of babies' organs prompts inquiry

Personally, I don't see how one excuses the other personally.

Boston

wes wrote: »

So you can't find the link then? I had a look for it and couldn't find one.

Also, I read you post just fine, you said no one went to jail here for stealing the organs of stillborn babies, and I went looking for a link to the story and couldn't find one, so I asked you, as your the one bringing this up.

The only such story I can find is one from the UK:

'Secret disposal' of babies' organs prompts inquiry

Personally, I don't see how one excuses the other personally.

Boston wrote: »

I can't find a link at the moment but I remember reading a few years ago about similar practices being carried out in Irish Hospitals.

Did you read this post where I said I couldn't find a link at the moment. You then go on to ask for a link.

See here for a summary of a book on the retention of organs in Ireland. It details how they where selling the organs of dead babies to pharmaceutical companies.

Heres a link to the Solicitors representing Victims family.

Heres an article into a report finding that the Rotunda was retaining organs without permission as recently as 2007.

Heres an article about detailing the personal pain the revelations had on a mother.

I never said one excuses the other. Your ability to both ignore my posts content and read in your own understanding is remarkable. The point is, if I must spell it out, to condemn Israel in this fashion is hypocritical if you do not condemn Ireland in the same way.

Oh, just so we're clear, if you bother to read what I've linked to (highly doubtful given you inability to read this thread) you'll see no one has been found accountable for the retention of organs here, which means no one has gone to jail, and we've had a decade.

The Saint

These activities taking place within a state would fall under the domestic criminal legal system. The actions taken by an occupying power would fall under international law. Quite different situations really. There's not much point in comparing organ harvesting by the Irish in Ireland, the Israelis in Israel and the Israelis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

wes

Boston wrote: »

Did you read this post where I said I couldn't find a link at the moment. You then go on to ask for a link.

I asked for the link several posts later, but I will apologise if I came off as rude as it was not my intent.

Boston wrote: »

See here for a summary of a book on the retention of organs in Ireland. It details how they where selling the organs of dead babies to pharmaceutical companies.

Heres a link to the Solicitors representing Victims family.

Heres an article into a report finding that the Rotunda was retaining organs without permission as recently as 2007.

Heres an article about detailing the personal pain the revelations had on a mother.

Thanks.

Boston wrote: »

I never said one excuses the other. Your ability to both ignore my posts content and read in your own understanding is remarkable. The point is, if I must spell it out, to condemn Israel in this fashion is hypocritical if you do not condemn Ireland in the same way.

Ah alright then, well that doesn't make any sense. You can't possible know people opinions on organ theft in this country, and no one here expressed any defence of similar behaviour here in Ireland.

Just to be clear, I do of course condemn stealing people's organ's regardless of who is doing it.

However, this is a thread about Israel doing it and not about Ireland, so I personally didn't feel the need to condemn organ theft in every country in the world, where it is practiced, as that would just lead to really long posts, that have nothing to do with the topic. I am sure other didn't do so for similar reasons.

**EDIT**
So how can you accuse anyone of hypocrisy, when you couldn't possibly know people feelings on the organ theft in Ireland?

Seems to me that you are inventing a position to argue against imho.
**END EDIT**

Boston wrote: »

Oh, just so we're clear, if you bother to read what I've linked to (highly doubtful given you inability to read this thread) you'll see no one has been found accountable for the retention of organs here, which means no one has gone to jail, and we've had a decade.

Well, that is really appaling, that we haven't been able to put anyone in prison for this horrible crime, but last time checked, we didn't accuse people who expose these crimes as being anti-irish racists.

Boston

The Saint wrote: »

These activities taking place within a state would fall under the domestic criminal legal system. The actions taken by an occupying power would fall under international law. Quite different situations really. There's not much point in comparing organ harvesting by the Irish in Ireland, the Israelis in Israel and the Israelis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Abu Kabir is in Israel, That is where the harvesting took place. The first post on the thread indicated that much. Israelis harvesting organs from Israelis in Israel. Thats the same as what happened here. Israelis harvesting organs from Palestinians in Israel still is a matter for domestic law and comparable to what happened here. Now I want you to go away and put a little thought into your next post.

wes

Boston wrote: »

Abu Kabir is in Israel, That is where the harvesting took place. The first post on the thread indicated that much. Israelis harvesting organs from Israelis in Israel. Thats the same as what happened here. Israelis harvesting organs from Palestinians in Israel still is a matter for domestic law and comparable to what happened here.

So the Irish miltary went into a country we were occupying and killed some people or took bodies killed by others, and then took them back here and then stole there organs. Seems very different to me, but I am odd like that.

Boston

wes wrote: »

Ah alright then, well that doesn't make any sense. You can't possible know people opinions on organ theft in this country, and no one here expressed any defence of similar behaviour here in Ireland.

Do you not see the Irony here, you likewise cannot know what the opinion of the Israeli people is on this issue. I'd imagine most are appalled. You say no one has defended the behaviour in Ireland while ignoring the fact that a report which could have brought those responsible to justice was suppressed by the Irish government.

wes wrote: »

However, this is a thread about Israel doing it and not about Ireland, so I personally didn't feel the need to condemn organ theft in every country in the world, where it is practiced, as that would just lead to really long posts, that have nothing to do with the topic. I am sure other didn't do so for similar reasons.

Demonstrates the hypocrisy which is now synonymous with these Israeli threads.

Boston

wes wrote: »

So the Irish miltary went into a country we were occupying and killed some people or took bodies killed by others, and then took them back here and then stole there organs. Seems very different to me, but I am odd like that.

Things can be comparable and different at the same time.

The Saint

Boston wrote: »

Abu Kabir is in Israel, That is where the harvesting took place. The first post on the thread indicated that much. Israelis harvesting organs from Israelis in Israel. Thats the same as what happened here. Israelis harvesting organs from Palestinians in Israel still is a matter for domestic law and comparable to what happened here. Now I want you to go away and put a little thought into your next post.

Please don't patronise me. Some of the Palestinians were killed in the Occupied Territories and are not Israelis. Israel as the Occupying power has responsibilities for these bodies. The Israeli army removed these bodies from the Occupied Territory to Israel and therefore the ultimate responsibility for the body remains with the Israeli authorities and are subject to international law.

I presume you wouldn't argue that a prisoner of war brought to an enemy country should be treated under the national law of the holding power rather than international law?

TMoreno

Boston wrote: »

Do you not see the Irony here, you likewise cannot know what the opinion of the Israeli people is on this issue. I'd imagine most are appalled. You say no one has defended the behaviour in Ireland while ignoring the fact that a report which could have brought those responsible to justice was suppressed by the Irish government.



Demonstrates the hypocrisy which is now synonymous with these Israeli threads.

The big difference between Israel and Ireland is that you were accused of being antisemitic if you said that the Israeli have stolen the organs of Palestinians. Nobody would even investigate the information. It was not about finding if the information was true or false it was between being antisemitic or not.
The only defense of the Zionists is that it's over now, but how do we know?

Boston

Are Palestinians POWs under international law? They are not to my knowledge.You said "where these activities take place". You're now talking about where these people were killed. I've no idea the break down of how many were killer, not where, nor how. You seem to have knowledge beyond whats contained in the article.

The Saint

Boston wrote: »

Are Palestinians POWs under international law? They are not to my knowledge.You said "where these activities take place". You're now talking about where these people were killed. I've no idea the break down of how many were killer, not where, nor how. You seem to have knowledge beyond whats contained in the article.

All Palestinians are POW's? Are you joking? And you told me to put thought into my posts? Ha, nice one.

The Palestinian Territories fall under the laws of war and occupation so international law is applicable there. The International Court of Justice in 1986 stated that the Geneva Conventions form part of customary international law and in 2004 the stated that the Geneva conventions apply to the Occupied Territories.

As for where some of these people were killed. I didn't see it in that article but from another yesterday:

Scheper-Hughes said that some of the dead Palestinians from whom organs were harvested were killed during military raids.

"Some of the bodies were definitely Palestinians who were killed in conflicts," she told Al Jazeera.

"Their organs were taken without consent of families and were used to serve the needs of the country in terms of hospitals as well as the army's needs."

Linky

Boston

So they weren't POWs as you implied, they died in raids.

The Saint

Boston wrote: »

So they weren't POWs as you implied, they died in raids.

I didn't imply that they were POW's. I made the POW comment as a comparison of the applicability of international law. You must have misinterpreted it.

However, it does not detract from applicability of international law in this case.

Boston

As a solicitor specialising in International Law, I'll take your word for it.

The Saint

Fair enough.

wes

Boston wrote: »

Do you not see the Irony here, you likewise cannot know what the opinion of the Israeli people is on this issue. I'd imagine most are appalled. You say no one has defended the behaviour in Ireland while ignoring the fact that a report which could have brought those responsible to justice was suppressed by the Irish government.

I was talking about people on this thread specifically, and not the Irish government, but nice try all the same.

I did not condemn every single Israeli btw, nor did I assume I knew what the majorities opinion on the matter is. My criticism is specifically against the Israeli government, which get up to all sorts of nonsense on a regular basis, while calling all and sundry a racist, as someone kind of absurd defense.

Boston wrote: »

Demonstrates the hypocrisy which is now synonymous with these Israeli threads.

What hypocrisy? Was anyone on this thread involved in suppressing the report in question? Does anyone support this suppression? You are really going to have to do a lot better than accusing people of hypocrisy, perhaps actually accuse people based on thing they actually support and not stuff that imagine they do.

Sorry, but this is the same old tactic used by Israel apologists. Try and change the subject and make it about someone or something else.

The Saint

Just to clarify the legal basis of this under international law, the International Committee of the Red Cross states in it's list of customary international law:

Each party to the conflict must take all possible measures to prevent the dead from being despoiled. Mutilation of dead bodies is prohibited.

Link

A further overview of the treatment of the dead in international law can be found in this publication by the ICRC from pages 406-420, particularly pages 408-9. (Note: Some pages are missing.)

BlaasForRafa

This thread is just another one where the usual suspects have a pop at Israel.

Its also ironic and somewhat sad that this thread is already longer than the one a few months ago about the government of Sri Lanka shelling the crap out of Tamil civilian refugees, but then any mention of Israel in the news always brings out a typical storm of condemnation.

Overheal

Manic Moran wrote: »

You know, on a fundamental level, I don't really see the problem. It's not as if the dead person needs them any more.

Should someone really be allowed to die or suffer because the next of kin of a compatible donor corpse isn't able to be found to give permission?

NTM

While normally Im a big fan of Military Pragmatism: thats taking it a little too far.

The vast majority of countries (to my knowledge) are opt-In; not opt-Out, for very good reasons which I am weary to get into here. You can find Organ Donor debates in AH though. Lots of them.

This thread is just another one where the usual suspects have a pop at Israel.

I dont care who it is: its just wrong.

Its also ironic and somewhat sad that this thread is already longer than the one a few months ago about the government of Sri Lanka shelling the crap out of Tamil civilian refugees,

Nobody wants to upset the Cricket Leagues, see.

The Saint

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This thread is just another one where the usual suspects have a pop at Israel.

Here's an idea. Why don't you contribute with the substance of the thread rather than coming in and throwing you're usual rubbish around about "the usual suspects"? If you have a point on the subject why not engage with the topic instead of dragging the thread off topic?

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its also ironic and somewhat sad that this thread is already longer than the one a few months ago about the government of Sri Lanka shelling the crap out of Tamil civilian refugees, but then any mention of Israel in the news always brings out a typical storm of condemnation.

Well funnily enough, when I did a search on the Sri Lanka/Tamil issue I found two threads. One was started by Wes and the other was started by Nodin (who I presume you were referring to in you snide little "usual suspects" dig). Both of them contributed to both topics. Funnily enough I didn't see any post from you on either thread.

All you seem to want to do is come on to these threads, make stupid accusations, drag the thread off topic and not engage with the subject matter at hand.

Zambia

1: I think that when a organ is harvested the host body is beyond Life but not actually dead.

2: Assuming the dead in enemy cases are Muslim its a bit of a big thing to them to defile a dead body.

I would be of the opinion if I could save one of my side by harvesting the opposing forces organs so be it.

If a live enemy threatened my guys I would shoot them. Is it too much of a stretch to use a dead enemy to save the same guy if his organs where failing.

None of this makes it right.

Manic Moran

AARRRGH wrote: »

The problem with your way of thinking is where do you draw the line?

Should wig companies be allowed take their hair?

Should jewellers be allowed take their gold teeth?

Necrophelia...?!

A common, and I think, reasonable, level when dealing with major issues is to save 'life, limb or eyesight'. Something pretty permanent and important. I don't think wigs, jewelery or sexual gratification would come particularly close.

You have to respect people's rights and dignity. As the moderator of the military forum -- and obviously someone with an interest in acts of war -- it is very sad that you can't understand this.

As someone with a participation-level interest in acts of war, I've also seen what happens when people lose life, limb or eyesight, and I really don't think people should be required to sacrifice any of the above if there are viable alternatives. This is not military-specific, and can apply to anything from industrial accidents through natural causes.

On a fundamental level, you should imagine somebody killing a member of your family and stealing his or her organs. Would you say it's OK?

This does not seem to have been the case, here. The source bodies were already dead/on-the-way out, according to the article, from most any cause except military action.

If I have any concerns, it wasn't the practise itself as much as the fact that it wasn't announced. It seems to me that the most pragmatic approach is to reverse the more common 'donor card' thing, and to instead have a public policy that your desire to help others is a given by default unless you are carrying evidence to the contrary. Maybe with a tax/license fee to opt out, though I can see legal reasons against that. Saves lives, and if people think that some ideal of bodily integrity for simple belief grounds is more important than allowing others to live better lives, well, they can follow that belief. (Though my personal opinion of such a belief is not complimentary)

NTM

Ping Chow Chi

Manic Moran wrote: »

If I have any concerns, it wasn't the practise itself as much as the fact that it wasn't announced.

Can you imagine doing this on your tour in Afghanistan? Distributing leaflets to the locals telling them that the American army will harvest their organs for the exclusive use of American life’s if they do not opt out of the practice?

RedPlanet

Manic Moran wrote: »

It seems to me that the most pragmatic approach is to reverse the more common 'donor card' thing, and to instead have a public policy that your desire to help others is a given by default unless you are carrying evidence to the contrary.
NTM

Yeah i think a lot of people would agree. But the fact remains that it wasn't the policy, at least it wasn't a Public policy.
There are countries that do this, like France.
However i'm not sure if they automatically harvest non-residents.
For example, say you were a US tourist visting the Eiflel tower and dropped dead. Would they automatically slice you up for organs?
I doubt it.

They would probably have the respect and civilty to ask your next of kin.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This thread is just another one where the usual suspects have a pop at Israel.

Odd that you complain about those who condemn this repulsive practice, and don't offer any condemnation of it.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its also ironic and somewhat sad that this thread is already longer than the one a few months ago about the government of Sri Lanka shelling the crap out of Tamil civilian refugees, but then any mention of Israel in the news always brings out a typical storm of condemnation.

Well, I was posting in that thread as well, but the main difference between that thread and Israel/Palestine ones, is that very few people go to the same lengths in defending the Sri Lankan regime, as those who defend Israel, and as such why these threads tend to be much longer.

Your own post is a perfect example of this. Bring up something that has nothing to do with the thread, as there really is no other way to defend Israel's actions in this instance.

gerry28

I would be banned if i stated what i really think of that country so i will only say: it doesn't surprise me one bit and its utterly disgusting.

Boston

gerry28 wrote: »

I would be banned if i stated what i really think of that country so i will only say: it doesn't surprise me one bit and its utterly disgusting.

This here is why its Anti-Semitic. Using something like this as another reason to condemn Israel and the Israelis is like using the infant organ retention scandal as a reason to put down the Irish.

Nodin

The Saint wrote: »

Here's an idea. Why don't you contribute with the substance of the thread rather than coming in and throwing you're usual rubbish around about "the usual suspects"? If you have a point on the subject why not engage with the topic instead of dragging the thread off topic?


Well funnily enough, when I did a search on the Sri Lanka/Tamil issue I found two threads. One was started by Wes and the other was started by Nodin (who I presume you were referring to in you snide little "usual suspects" dig). Both of them contributed to both topics. Funnily enough I didn't see any post from you on either thread.

All you seem to want to do is come on to these threads, make stupid accusations, drag the thread off topic and not engage with the subject matter at hand.

QFT

wes

Boston wrote: »

This here is why its Anti-Semitic.

That didn't take long. First everyone is a hypocrite and now people are Anti-Semites. I wonder what accusation you will come up with next?

Boston wrote: »

Using something like this as another reason to condemn Israel and the Israelis is like using the infant organ retention scandal as a reason to put down the Irish.

Condemning the state of Israel is perfectly reasonable (as would condemnation of any other state doing anything similar) and no one here has condemned every single last Israeli as you insinuate, with your predictable accusation of Anti-semitism.

Even the post you quote specifically condemns the "country" and not every single Israeli or Jew, so you are once again reaching here, just like your accusations of hypocrisy, this one, once again falls flat on its face.

Boston

wes wrote: »

That didn't take long. First everyone is a hypocrite and now people are Anti-Semites. I wonder what accusation you will come up with next?

Find for me where I said everyone. You seem to have a problem determining which posts of mine are directed at you and which arn't

Condemning the state of Israel is perfectly reasonable (as would condemnation of any other state doing anything similar) and no one here has condemned every single last Israeli as you insinuate, with your predictable accusation of Anti-semitism.

Hypocrisy.

wes wrote: »

Even the post you quote specifically condemns the "country" and not every single Israeli or Jew, so you are once again reaching here, just like your accusations of hypocrisy, this one, once again falls flat on its face.

The country of Israeli didn't do anything. The country is a geographical location. When making references to Israel in the context quoted, you're actually talking about the people of Israel. You are a hypocrite, having ignored the fact Ireland did the same thing. In fact selling the organs of babies to the highest bidder is worse in my book.

wes

Boston wrote: »

Find for me where I said everyone. You seem to have a problem determining which posts of mine are directed at you and which arn't

Your accusations are pretty vague most of the time actually:

Boston wrote: »

This here is why its Anti-Semitic. Using something like this as another reason to condemn Israel and the Israelis is like using the infant organ retention scandal as a reason to put down the Irish.

The langauge used above is very vague and seemed to apply to the entire thread and not to a specific poster. Seems to me that your issue is with the thread in general.

Boston wrote: »

Hypocrisy.

Lol, there you are again with you accusation. What I said isn't hypocrisy. You do realise that throwing out accusation at random, doesn't work, right?

Boston wrote: »

The country of Israeli didn't do anything. The country is a geographical location. When making references to Israel in the context quoted, you're actually talking about the people of Israel.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. This is how people refer to countries all the time. Having to type the "state of Israel" or lets say the "state of Saudi Arabia", all the time would be cubersome, and I think you will find that no one does that for any country, but nice try all the same.

Boston wrote: »

You are a hypocrite, having ignored the fact Ireland did the same thing. In fact selling the organs of babies to the highest bidder is worse in my book.

I didn't ignore anything actually:

wes wrote: »

Ah alright then, well that doesn't make any sense. You can't possible know people opinions on organ theft in this country, and no one here expressed any defence of similar behaviour here in Ireland.

Just to be clear, I do of course condemn stealing people's organ's regardless of who is doing it.

However, this is a thread about Israel doing it and not about Ireland, so I personally didn't feel the need to condemn organ theft in every country in the world, where it is practiced, as that would just lead to really long posts, that have nothing to do with the topic. I am sure other didn't do so for similar reasons.

**EDIT**
So how can you accuse anyone of hypocrisy, when you couldn't possibly know people feelings on the organ theft in Ireland?

Seems to me that you are inventing a position to argue against imho.
**END EDIT**

As can be clearly seen above I acknowledge organ theft in this country (in fact all countries) and condemn it and point out that your accusations are ridiculous as you can't possibly know people position on organ theft in this country, and then I point out that this thread is about Israel, and chances are peoplen't aren't going to discuss what went on in Ireland due to thread title being what is and all.

If you want to discuss organ theft in Ireland, why not start a thread on that topic? I am would happily condemn organ theft in this country inside such a thread. No need to derail this one, when starting a new topic is very easy.

Now, you accusation is even more nonsensical, seeing as I have condemned organ theft in Ireland and I did not ignore it either. All I did was challenge you increasingly desperate attempts to derail the discussion, with your increasingly desperate vague accusations against people.

So, you really should stop accusing people of this that or the other. Doing it again and again, won't make the accusation stick either.

gerry28

Boston wrote: »

This here is why its Anti-Semitic. Using something like this as another reason to condemn Israel and the Israelis is like using the infant organ retention scandal as a reason to put down the Irish.

This anti semitic card is overplayed and quite dangerous. It is called on so often that criticising israel is almost impossible no matter what they do.

America is criticising often, as are russia, france, china etc but if someone dares criticize isreal they are instantly accused of anti semitism.

Its rubbish and the people using this card willy nilly should be ashamed of themselves - they know deep down they are abusing its use in my opinion.