Help on upgrading please

ibFoxer

Hi guys,

Basically im really new to this kind of thing so any help or advice you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

At the moment the machine i have is a Dell Optiplex 360 intel dual core 1.8ghz, graphics card is ATI Radeon X300/X550/X1050 Series, Chip type,RADEON X600 SE (0x5B62).

As it stands i can quite comfortably play the first COD:MW with very little stutter or framerate issues. My idea is to improve the graphics card so there is no issues with play. I was looking at a geforce 9400gt, i can pick one up for around €40, but not knowing much about this kind of thing if anyone has any better suggestions they would be welcome.

Thanks for looking

Solitaire

First: which type of GX360 do you have? The slimline or the mini-tower?

I'm guessing your CPU is either an E1300 or E2160. Either way you should be okay, although life would become a lot better if you can overclock them just a bit (1.8GHz is **** speed even for an old 65nm C2D). I doubt a Dell would have voltage control but if you're lucky you can increase the FSB and boost CPU performance without resorting to buying a new CPU...

Now the tricky bit. Your choice of graphics card is limited to stuff without a PCIe power connector, as there are no spare power cables to even attach an adaptor to. If you'd even have risked it in the first place - the PSUs in the GX360 vary between 14-16A maximum output. This is bad - there's very little spare capacity to drive any kind of graphics card in there, and the PSUs and mobos in the GX360 are proprietary jobbies that can't be upgraded or replaced. If anything you'd be best off hanging on until AMD release their next-gen budget cards as they'll be extremely frugal with power. At the moment even a HD4670 could be pushing things (the HD5750 would be a much better if pricier option, but where are you going to get the plugs to attach the 6-pin PCIe power cable adaptor from?), and that option only exists if you have the mini-tower as there's no low-profile version available.

With the slimline GX360 you're stuck with a HD4550 at best, which isn't the best at games. The 9400GT is a whole lot worse. And the HD4550 is better than the newer and pricier GT210/220 anyway. No low-profile versions of the GT240 either. The most powerful low-profile cards out there are the ultra-rare low-profile versions of the 9600GT and 9800GT by Galaxy, and both are too thirsty to be considered (unlike the HD5750 they actually need a 6-pin PCIe power connector!)

ibFoxer

Right, i have to say i understood none of that!!!! My main port of call right now is to increase the ram to the 4gb capacity and see if that improves things any. Im not looking for something to do serious gaming on(im a console gamer at heart and always will be) but at the same time the ability to play l4d with my mates would be nice. Also theres a few games id like to play myself which require a higher spec graphics card.

Which leads me to the question, with this HD4550, will that be enough of a step up to justify a purchase, or for what my intentions are am i going to be stable enough with just a RAM boost? Like i say COD:MW and half life 2 both work fine, and according to a mate of mine the puny 1gb RAM is all thats setting me back atm....

uberpixie

foxerv1 wrote: »

Right, i have to say i understood none of that!!!!

Your Dell is a typical shoite box dell: not designed to be upgradeable at all. The power supply is too weak to take a half dacent gfx card, anything that the power supply might be able to handle is hamstrung as they are not any spare power connectors to power a new gfx card.

foxerv1 wrote: »

My main port of call right now is to increase the ram to the 4gb capacity and see if that improves things any. Im not looking for something to do serious gaming on(im a console gamer at heart and always will be) but at the same time the ability to play l4d with my mates would be nice. Also theres a few games id like to play myself which require a higher spec graphics card.

Which leads me to the question, with this HD4550, will that be enough of a step up to justify a purchase, or for what my intentions are am i going to be stable enough with just a RAM boost? Like i say COD:MW and half life 2 both work fine, and according to a mate of mine the puny 1gb RAM is all thats setting me back atm....

1gig of ram will slow things down alright, ideally you would be able to upgrade the gfx card as well as this is what will really improve gfx performance.

Still up the ram to 3gig, should greatly improve the running of windows in everyday use as well as making your current games smoother.

jonny72

foxerv1 wrote: »

Right, i have to say i understood none of that!!!! My main port of call right now is to increase the ram to the 4gb capacity and see if that improves things any. Im not looking for something to do serious gaming on(im a console gamer at heart and always will be) but at the same time the ability to play l4d with my mates would be nice. Also theres a few games id like to play myself which require a higher spec graphics card.

Which leads me to the question, with this HD4550, will that be enough of a step up to justify a purchase, or for what my intentions are am i going to be stable enough with just a RAM boost? Like i say COD:MW and half life 2 both work fine, and according to a mate of mine the puny 1gb RAM is all thats setting me back atm....

Your mate is completely and utterly wrong. 1 gig of ram is the least of your worries. Its complex, but I'll explain a bit, if you had a quarter gig of ram, then that would be a problem, but as it stands, 1 gig of ram is just enough to run just about anything at the moment. Increasing your ram (on this pc) will not speed up your games much, it might only speed up the bit where the game level loads between levels thats it.

The thing that will speed up your games the most right now is a graphics card. If you try to buy a graphics card yourself; without any knowledge, with a weird old dell PC then you will most likely buy something ridiculous that won't improve your PC at all.

The best thing you can do now is to figure out if your PC is the MINITOWER version (can take 100's different graphics cards) or the SLIMLINE version (can take shag all graphics cards)..

So this is what you do..

Type the name Dell Optiplex 360 into images.google.com

and find the pic that is your PC box and then paste the image here and we'll tell you if its the crappy slimline or the minitower..

Then we'll recommend you a graphics card (remember that your power supply in your PC is not designed to handle the better graphics cards, but still you should be able to get something decent if its the minitower)

Remember, Dells are designed for office use and not gaming, so they are hard to upgrade, and also remember, don't listen to your mates, the nerds here know what they are talking about

ibFoxer

jonny72 wrote: »

Type the name Dell Optiplex 360 into images.google.com

and find the pic that is your PC box and then paste the image here and we'll tell you if its the crappy slimline or the minitower..

I can go one better, this is the actual machine i have.....http://www.adverts.ie/showproduct.php?product=164973&cat=all

Solitaire

Slimline. Oh [CENSORED].

No PSU overhead and 99% of cards won't even fit. New build time

ibFoxer

Ok, id forgotten about this, all the advice above was greatly appreciated!!!

Muchos Gracios Gentlemen!!

But here is where im at now. 1tb harddrive, 2gb DDR2 6400 833mhz ram, windows 7. Still the same bios, im getting max res on half life 2 & cs:source (not too much of a drain i know). Also i re-read the posts above, please correct me if im wrong, i dont think im limited to non PCI-e cards, the x600 is PCI-e as far as i can tell...

Next step maybe a new psu? (only a crappy 255w atm) And with a new psu a shiny new gfx card? Bear in mind i dont wana play crysis...... dawn of war 2 maybe.....

OR should i just go for a new build? Im gettin the hang of this pc build stuff now so i would take a stab at it if needed....

Solitaire

I wish I knew what 12V capacity your PSU actually had. Since our last little chat there's been a twist: AMD actually released a half-decent low-profile graphics card, plus it uses very little power. No messing with PCIe power connectors or crap like that; just buy a HD5570 and slap it in the PCIe slot. Its miles better than a HD4550 and low-profile 9600GTs are rarer than hen's teeth on this side of the Atlantic. Plus they use about twice as much power

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

I wish I knew what 12V capacity your PSU actually had. Since our last little chat there's been a twist: AMD actually released a half-decent low-profile graphics card, plus it uses very little power. No messing with PCIe power connectors or crap like that; just buy a HD5570 and slap it in the PCIe slot. Its miles better than a HD4550 and low-profile 9600GTs are rarer than hen's teeth on this side of the Atlantic. Plus they use about twice as much power

I can check that when i get home from work and throw it up for ya. Had a guick google of that HD5570, looks good, might be a winner if its gona work. Pixmania mayhaps? Or can you suggest a better place to buy?

ibFoxer

Oh, and if you could link me to the exact card you were referencing Solitaire, i had a quick look on pixmania and its giving me 4 options......http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/r/hd5570

Cheers

cherryghost

foxerv1 wrote: »

Oh, and if you could link me to the exact card you were referencing Solitaire, i had a quick look on pixmania and its giving me 4 options......http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/r/hd5570

Cheers

2nd one i think :pac:

Solitaire

Yep. Can't believe a low-end card costs so much but at least its a darn sight better than the HD4670! In fact its pretty close to the 9600GT/GT240 in most things :P

You do know that checking the 12V power on the PSU will involve busting into your PC and hunting for the big ratings label on the PSU (should take up fully one side of a likkle PSU like yours!)

ibFoxer

Theres a big sticker on the psu with various bits of info on it, including the 255w bad news..... would it be that mayhaps?

ibFoxer

cherryghost wrote: »

2nd one i think :pac:

Naturally, according to my luck, its the one NOT in stock

Solitaire

Yup. Should be a list or table on it with 3.3V, 5V, 12V etc. I'd like to see the number of watts or amps listed as max on the 12V rail

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

Yup. Should be a list or table on it with 3.3V, 5V, 12V etc. I'd like to see the number of watts or amps listed as max on the 12V rail

Do you want a picture or will i just write it up word for word??

Solitaire

Whatever's quicker and easier for you!

ibFoxer

Ok, hope i have enough here....

Dell Model H255E-01
Max output 255w

+5v/15a
+3.3v/5a
+12v/18a
+5Vpp/4a
-12v/0.5a

+5v & +3.3v shall not exceed 91.5w.

The rest of it was in chinese and im a little rusty :P

Solitaire

Thanks for the specs - can be dead hard to find info on OEM PSUs on the web

Looks right, although I'm surprised at how low the 3.3V rail really is (should be more like 10-15A). Modern Dell PSUs aren't too bad and this wee 255W unit can still put out a respectable 204W on the 12V rail.

At stock speeds I don't see you even needing half of the PSU's max output while gaming with your current CPU and a HD5570, so all seems good on that front. If you need to (and you can actually find a way, given Dell custom BIOSes usually block you) overclocking the CPU just slightly could give you the extra oomph if you ever fall short or find apps are slow. But for the most part a new HD5570 to complement the system sounds like the ideal upgrade

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

Thanks for the specs - can be dead hard to find info on OEM PSUs on the web

Looks right, although I'm surprised at how low the 3.3V rail really is (should be more like 10-15A). Modern Dell PSUs aren't too bad and this wee 255W unit can still put out a respectable 204W on the 12V rail.

At stock speeds I don't see you even needing half of the PSU's max output while gaming with your current CPU and a HD5570, so all seems good on that front. If you need to (and you can actually find a way, given Dell custom BIOSes usually block you) overclocking the CPU just slightly could give you the extra oomph if you ever fall short or find apps are slow. But for the most part a new HD5570 to complement the system sounds like the ideal upgrade

Cheers man, any idea of the best place to get one? Was it the second in that list btw from pixmania btw?

Also, i ran this funky little programme http://www.crucial.com/uk/systemscanner/index.aspx and it decided i should have 4gb non eec ddr2 pc2 8500 ram

Pacifico

The pixmania price isn't too bad...Price on Komplett & Overclockers

This RAM is great if you're looking for 4GB. Price is not too bad and Crucial are great to deal with (free delivery too)

Solitaire

Yep, second card down the list. Pix is probably cheapest at the moment.

As for RAM... you did say you had 2GB DDR2-6400 so I left it at that. 4GB is seriously expensive at the moment; more expensive than the graphics card and nowhere near as vital for performance increases. On a low-end rig there's little financial sense in jumping for 4GB, especially if you have reasonably quick modules already. If you were currently stuck with slow old 533MHz DDR2-4200 I'd have said otherwise but a RAM upgrade shouldn't be your first priority right now, especially if you're focusing on gaming. Also note that if you're not OCing that CPU you'll have a 200MHz FSB, which is too slow to support DDR2-8500. Your 800MHz DDR2-6400 stuff is as high as you can go right now.

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

Yep, second card down the list. Pix is probably cheapest at the moment.

As for RAM... you did say you had 2GB DDR2-6400 so I left it at that. 4GB is seriously expensive at the moment; more expensive than the graphics card and nowhere near as vital for performance increases. On a low-end rig there's little financial sense in jumping for 4GB, especially if you have reasonably quick modules already. If you were currently stuck with slow old 533MHz DDR2-4200 I'd have said otherwise but a RAM upgrade shouldn't be your first priority right now, especially if you're focusing on gaming. Also note that if you're not OCing that CPU you'll have a 200MHz FSB, which is too slow to support DDR2-8500. Your 800MHz DDR2-6400 stuff is as high as you can go right now.

I double checked the ram since, i remember it was 800mhz but i wasnt 100% it was 6400, it definitely is so i figure its good enough, tbh im loathe to overclock JUST IN CASE....... not quite sure how stable the motherboard is..... if i can get an improvement in the gfx then ill be happy enough until i buy a new machine to tinker with......

Seriously Solitaire, cant thank you enough for the advice and help....

ibFoxer

Pacifico wrote: »

The pixmania price isn't too bad...Price on Komplett & Overclockers

This RAM is great if you're looking for 4GB. Price is not too bad and Crucial are great to deal with (free delivery too)

I assume the HD 5570 comes with the low pro adaptor??

Solitaire

Good point... Komplett said that that specific package (11167-04-20R) included two low-profile brackets. Even with their Lite and OEM packages Sapphire don't tend to dick about with stuff like brackets and PCIe power adaptors.

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

Good point... Komplett said that that specific package (11167-04-20R) included two low-profile brackets. Even with their Lite and OEM packages Sapphire don't tend to dick about with stuff like brackets and PCIe power adaptors.

Which would mean its in the package from komplett? I cant find a reference to it on pixmania. Assuming theres no chance of a bricks and mortar buy for reasonable euros which would you prescribe?

Solitaire

Same package. I doubt they go around taking the brackets out of the boxes in Pixmania! :P They're just a bit cack at putting up product specs there much less putting up a list of included accessories! :rolleyes:

You should be fine with the €71.90 Pixmania package, can't think of a reason why they wouldn't have the brackets too unless it was Komplett who got the spec wrong!

ibFoxer

Haha, ya cant trust some bricks and mortar shops let alone the internets. Still, a mate of mine wants a few bits from pixmania so i reckon i'll give it a lash.

Anything else i should do or get?

Solitaire

Can't think of anything right now... you've already got a decent RAM upgrade since last year so its really just the card now. OCIng the CPU a bit would help too but that's optional.

ibFoxer

Cheers for all that mate, i have the card ordered, wont be here til maybe the 1st or 2nd of april. I will report improvements then!!! One question, i was looking it up but im not entirely sure of the process, overclocking the cpu, what exactly is the process? How dangerous is it?

lmimmfn

foxerv1 wrote: »

Cheers for all that mate, i have the card ordered, wont be here til maybe the 1st or 2nd of april. I will report improvements then!!! One question, i was looking it up but im not entirely sure of the process, overclocking the cpu, what exactly is the process? How dangerous is it?

forget it on a Dell, most likely your current airflow is just barely adequate and you cannot OC dells easily. It is possible, i got my old P4 Dell from 2.4Ghz to 2.8Ghz but i wouldnt recommend it( and like i said its not easy )

Solitaire

Its a low-heat medium-TDP C2D yet its still on Dell's old mBTX platform so cooling would be a bit better than a stock cooler most likely! If there's an issue odds are the fan/heatsink assembly is caked in dust! :P

The catch would be the BIOS - Dells are rubbish for that. You'd have to find out top-secret information on how to manually change the FSB speed - it should be possible as even the old Opty360 took FSB1066 CPUs and the refresh took FSB1333 CPUs so there should be some way of jumping that E2160 up to 2.4GHz by forcing the mobo into FSB1066 mode even without OC controls. And I doubt an E2160 would need more volts or produce too much heat at that speed!

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

Its a low-heat medium-TDP C2D yet its still on Dell's old mBTX platform so cooling would be a bit better than a stock cooler most likely! If there's an issue odds are the fan/heatsink assembly is caked in dust! :P

The catch would be the BIOS - Dells are rubbish for that. You'd have to find out top-secret information on how to manually change the FSB speed - it should be possible as even the old Opty360 took FSB1066 CPUs and the refresh took FSB1333 CPUs so there should be some way of jumping that E2160 up to 2.4GHz by forcing the mobo into FSB1066 mode even without OC controls. And I doubt an E2160 would need more volts or produce too much heat at that speed!

Clean as a whistle inside, i make sure of that.... the bios is Phoenix ROM BIOS PLUS Version 1.10 A00... i dont know if thats helpful but thats what dxdiag tells me....

Solitaire

Its what's inside the BIOS that's more interesting! I somehow doubt there'll be anything useful in there unless there's said FSB toggle in there somewhere!

And is there a jumper on that mobo with "FSB" anything on it? Although it could take a year to look for the teeny blighter if its even there

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

Its what's inside the BIOS that's more interesting! I somehow doubt there'll be anything useful in there unless there's said FSB toggle in there somewhere!

And is there a jumper on that mobo with "FSB" anything on it? Although it could take a year to look for the teeny blighter if its even there

Honestly, i have no clue? Someone with an idea what to look for would probably have to look at it and see.

But say i did want to OC, how would i go about that??

lmimmfn

Solitaire wrote: »

The catch would be the BIOS - Dells are rubbish for that. You'd have to find out top-secret information on how to manually change the FSB speed - it should be possible as even the old Opty360 took FSB1066 CPUs and the refresh took FSB1333 CPUs so there should be some way of jumping that E2160 up to 2.4GHz by forcing the mobo into FSB1066 mode even without OC controls. And I doubt an E2160 would need more volts or produce too much heat at that speed!

unless its changed you just need to find the pll ic and use the number to overclock it. You have to do it in windows though which is kinda crap as it will only remain overclocked until you reboot or if you shut down/boot up

If its a Phoenix bios though this might work but means replacing the bios chip if its a socket mounted one - http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/147073.html

Solitaire

I think this is getting a bit OTT now

If there's no simple option to change FSB mode in the BIOS or physically on the mobo itself I ain't telling fox to mess with clockgens or BIOS IC modding or anything! :eek:

lmimmfn

Solitaire wrote: »

I think this is getting a bit OTT now

If there's no simple option to change FSB mode in the BIOS or physically on the mobo itself I ain't telling fox to mess with clockgens or BIOS IC modding or anything! :eek:

haha lol, well he did ask

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

I think this is getting a bit OTT now

If there's no simple option to change FSB mode in the BIOS or physically on the mobo itself I ain't telling fox to mess with clockgens or BIOS IC modding or anything! :eek:

I would view this as a learning process...... the more i learn now the less i have to ask in the future.... and i am really interested in learning all i can cos we all have to start somewhere.....

However, i appreciate that messing with stuff your not familiar with can lead to all sorts of bad, so if the consesus is to leave well enough alone then i will happily oblige

And again, thanks for all the help so far!!

lmimmfn

yeah i wouldnt advise messing with it tbh not until you have a bit of confidence and you feel you need more performance.

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

Can't think of anything right now... you've already got a decent RAM upgrade since last year so its really just the card now. OCIng the CPU a bit would help too but that's optional.

@ Solitaire.... Gfx card finally came today, working so brilliantly i cant comprehend how i ever did without it!!!

Just want to say a massive thank you for the advice you gave me, i would honestly be no better off without it!!!:o

THANK YOU

ibFoxer

Hi guys, thanks again for all your help, hoping i can pick your brains on a thing or two more

Basically what i have ATM is this:

2x 1gb ddr2 6400
1x hd5570 gfx
1x 1tb HDD
core 2 duo 1.8ghz (:()

What i will have in a couple of days is that + http://www.adverts.ie/337108/desktops/dell-d9200-core2-2gb-genuine-vista-nvidia-7900gs/

I have checked and the ram on that is ddr2 6400(hopefully they will all play nice, would prefer to use 4x1gb rather than have to go for 2x2gb). Basically what i want to do is pick apart both PC's, get a new MOBO with a better processor and throw the best bits in, hopefully without having to change the case ( i intend using the larger d9200 one). Also looking to the idea of using a free upgrade for W7 the missus has to get up to 64bit utilising all available ram if possible.

The question is for say the likes of Dawn of War 2 or L4D 1 & 2 i probably need a better CPU (best i will have is 2.4ghz as per ad),so is there any reccomendations for say a MOBO/CPU for not too much monies? Or will i even need it?

Thanks in advance

Solitaire

Oh, God... you've been ripped Its a BTX unit! :eek:

Case - useless. Mobo - useless. CPU - barely useful, on a mobo that can OC it to hell and back, which isn't the default on for sure! RAM - Probably too slow to be useful, you might be lucky. Graphics - useless. At this point in time the HD5570 is probably around the same speed and consumes a fraction of the juice, plus it has vastly superior multimedia capabilities and DX10/11 support. PSU - Good... but probably useless as I'm not sure you'll be able to mount that in a regular ATX case!



EDIT - Just checked the service manual, the PSU is a custom unit anyway. Useless :(:(

cherryghost

Derp...

RoyalMarine

cherryghost wrote: »

Derp...

http://www.adverts.ie/337108/desktops/dell-d9200-core2-2gb-genuine-vista-nvidia-7900gs/#comment-2542081

did you ever get a car in the end?

cherryghost

I wasn't looking at upgrading or anything like that. Just a low level PC for my wife-to-be to play Sims 3 on :pac:

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

Oh, God... you've been ripped Its a BTX unit! :eek:

Case - useless. Mobo - useless. CPU - barely useful, on a mobo that can OC it to hell and back, which isn't the default on for sure! RAM - Probably too slow to be useful, you might be lucky. Graphics - useless. At this point in time the HD5570 is probably around the same speed and consumes a fraction of the juice, plus it has vastly superior multimedia capabilities and DX10/11 support. PSU - Good... but probably useless as I'm not sure you'll be able to mount that in a regular ATX case!



EDIT - Just checked the service manual, the PSU is a custom unit anyway. Useless :(:(

Feel really good now :P

Haha, its only monies anyway. But what should i do? New case & mobo?

Solitaire

New everything, if you want a better system than you've got. Neither mobo can support a quad-core CPU and neither case nor PSU supports a mobo upgrade. You could upgrade the GPU in the new Dell but it'd eventually end up CPU-limited and there's no way to OC or upgrade that CPU. Checkmate

ibFoxer

Solitaire wrote: »

New everything, if you want a better system than you've got. Neither mobo can support a quad-core CPU and neither case nor PSU supports a mobo upgrade. You could upgrade the GPU in the new Dell but it'd eventually end up CPU-limited and there's no way to OC or upgrade that CPU. Checkmate

Hmmm, see im not overly interested in a super brilliant machine. Its mostly used for counter strike and DOW. All i want to do is play DOW 2 with my mates. Would that not mean just a CPU upgrade? And when you say new EVERYTHING do you include gfx & ram? Because i can easily back out of the sale and go to sap maplins instead for a new mobo & CPU?

Solitaire

If you can still back out of the sale, DO SO! :eek:

Although you're a bit slim on CPU power and shouldn't try running DOW2 at incredibly high resolutions with just a HD5570 under the bonnet it will run in some capacity! So long as you have the G31-based version of the GX360 you can upgrade the CPU to something better which would be a lot cheaper than buying something equally weak and all but useless to you!