Paul O'Connell. *Read Mod Note. Post no.28*

Stick_man

is the best second row in the world and possibly the finest Irish forward ever. Truly blessed to watch him in red and BOD in blue and both in green!

Insect Overlord

Can't disagree with you!

wicklowdub

No, yes and yes we are blessed to have the two of them, not just as players but the way they lead their team.

wixfjord

Not the best in the world, but what a game he had today. Id love to see a few photos of those takes from the restarts. Epic. Great leader.

bleg

They were unnatural

phog

Huge game from him but then that's hardly surprising I have massive regard for him.

Podge_irl

Stick_man wrote: »

is the best second row in the world /QUOTE]

No he's not, but he is exceptionally good.

Stick_man

Podge_irl wrote: »

Stick_man wrote: »

is the best second row in the world /QUOTE]

No he's not, but he is exceptionally good.

Matfield I suppose? He is no doubt the best line-out operator but I think POC offers more around the pitch. Anyway don't want the argument, Both are outstanding just delighted for POC today.

thomond2006

I'm buying a pair of POC pyjamas this Christmas... :pac:

myflipflops

Stick_man wrote: »

possibly the finest Irish forward ever.!

Top 3 without debate, after that it's tight margins. Stephen Ferris has the ability to establish himself in a similar postion though.

I can't wait for the 6 nations. If O'Connell, Heaslip, Ferris keep up their from, it will be some pack out there going to Paris and Twickenham.

PhatPiggins

Stick_man wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

Matfield I suppose? He is no doubt the best line-out operator but I think POC offers more around the pitch. Anyway don't want the argument, Both are outstanding just delighted for POC today.

I dont know about Matfiled, he's great in the lineout and can at times be a good ball carrier but without Botha he can be anonymous.

As a pair Matfield/Botha are the best but individually O Connell is as good as/better then either of them. I think the fact that he is developing into a fine captain tips the scale futher.

irishbucsfan

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I think the fact that he is developing into a fine captain tips the scale futher.

Matfield is a fine captain as well though. I'd say him and POC are the best two at the moment.

POC is an awesome player, the only problem in his game is his ball carrying (though not hugely important for a 2nd Row, there are others who are better than him) apart from that he's as good as anyone in the world

Wreck

Stick_man wrote: »

is the best second row in the world and possibly the finest Irish forward ever. Truly blessed to watch him in red and BOD in blue and both in green!

Willie John McBride is surely the finest Irish forward ever, imo it's between him and O'Driscoll for the greatest Irish player of all time. POC is immense though, a great player in his own right and a fantastic leader, he was brilliant today.

D-Generate

Sure don't we all know that Superman wears POC pyjamas at night.

[Jackass]

D-Generate wrote: »

Sure don't we all know that Superman wears POC pyjamas at night.

It's a fact, just as it is that PO'C wears Brian O'Driscoll pyjamis at night!!!

thomond2006

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's a fact, just as it is that PO'C wears Brian O'Driscoll pyjamis at night!!!

now now..

2040

I've a feeling that by the end of the season BOD is going to be wearing Jean De Villiers pyjamas.

Stick_man

De Villers wears Mafi pj's............and so on.

davyjose

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Stick_man wrote: »

I dont know about Matfiled, he's great in the lineout and can at times be a good ball carrier but without Botha he can be anonymous.

As a pair Matfield/Botha are the best but individually O Connell is as good as/better then either of them. I think the fact that he is developing into a fine captain tips the scale futher.

I agree. I think matfield and Botha do each other a lot of favours. I think individually ... they both wear POC's pyjamas.

anonymous_joe

Matfield outplayed O'Connell three out of four times this year...

Admittedly he lost out without Botha, but then, they're more tailored to each other than any other pairing I've ever seen.

Podge_irl

Matfield would be better in my view. O'Connell isn't the best ball carrier, seems to have poor body position going into contact and his handling could be better (there's not a hope that Leinster would have scored their last try if it had been POC instead of MOK taking and giving passes in midfield).

All that said, its somewhat nitpicking and I think he's exceptionally good and would walk onto any team in the world bar SA (and the Bulls? is that Matfield/Botha's S14 team?). He's a fine captain as well. It's just a bit easy to start bandying about phrases like "best in the world" and somewhat overdone methinks.

anonymous_joe

Podge_irl wrote: »

Matfield would be better in my view. O'Connell isn't the best ball carrier, seems to have poor body position going into contact and his handling could be better (there's not a hope that Leinster would have scored their last try if it had been POC instead of MOK taking and giving passes in midfield).

All that said, its somewhat nitpicking and I think he's exceptionally good and would walk onto any team in the world bar SA (and the Bulls? is that Matfield/Botha's S14 team?). He's a fine captain as well. It's just a bit easy to start bandying about phrases like "best in the world" and somewhat overdone methinks.

Aye. But it's a bit like saying O'Driscoll's place-kicking's not great.

Podge_irl

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Aye. But it's a bit like saying O'Driscoll's place-kicking's not great.

Not really. I understand the comparison you're making but you're taking it a bit far imo. POC isn't lacking in any vital areas of his game but he invariably ends up in the line passing or carrying the ball at times and neither is a massive strength of his. BOD never has to place kick.

I will readily admit I'm being overly-critical, but if you're gonna make comments like "he's the best in the world", then he needs to be judged by pretty high standards.

anonymous_joe

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not really. I understand the comparison you're making but you're taking it a bit far imo. POC isn't lacking in any vital areas of his game but he invariably ends up in the line passing or carrying the ball at times and neither is a massive strength of his. BOD never has to place kick.

I will readily admit I'm being overly-critical, but if you're gonna make comments like "he's the best in the world", then he needs to be judged by pretty high standards.

Ah I know, I mean O'Connell's fairly gash attacking, but it's not the biggest part of his game.

buck65

Why had you to qualify your comment OP by mentioning Brian O Driscoll? Was it to get the majority of boards.ie onside?
Listen grow a set and say O Connell is the best in the world and the finest Irish forward ever stop pandering to the majority here.
Some of them will rarely give a Munsterman a break. Half them were on O Connell's case for the Lions tour. Until he shut them up with his performance. Now Matfield has owned O Connell in 3/4 tests this year. Blah blah blah.
Look at the previous comments to see the usual grudging admittance of the man's brilliance. "He's a great player but his palce kicking is off" etc. etc. Lets not kid ourselves to what's going on here. It's provincial bias in gift wrapping. Some of the threads on O Gara, Hayes, Quinlan, Leamy, Horan have been downright biased and because of the majority of posters here are Leinster fans it just builds and builds.
Bah humbug.

Size=everything

buck65 wrote: »

Listen grow a set and say O Connell is the best in the world and the finest Irish forward ever stop pandering to the majority here.

Jesus christ, just because someone doesn't think O'Connell was the greatest forward ever doesn't mean they need to 'grow a pair'
Many people would rate Willie John McBride and Keith Wood (whose a Munster man in case you try cry bias) ahead of him. Hes certainly one of the greatest ever Irish forwards but dont throw a hissy fit just because someone holds a respectable view that hes not the best ever.

Some of them will rarely give a Munsterman a break

Oh good lord.

Half them were on O Connell's case for the Lions tour. Until he shut them up with his performance.

What performance on the Lions tour? I thought he had a distinctively average tour but that doesn't mean I don't think he is an amazing player. By the way browse through planet rugby. This isn't some conspiracy like you seem to claim, fans from England, Wales, Scotland and South Africa agree he was quite average.

Now Matfield has owned O Connell in 3/4 tests this year. Blah blah blah.

He did, in fairness.

Look at the previous comments to see the usual grudging admittance of the man's brilliance. "He's a great player but his palce kicking is off" etc. etc. Lets not kid ourselves to what's going on here. It's provincial bias in gift wrapping.

Oh good lord it was a joke stop being so sensitive.

Some of the threads on O Gara, Hayes, Quinlan, Leamy, Horan have been downright biased and because of the majority of posters here are Leinster fans it just builds and builds.
Bah humbug.

I think you really need to stop being so sensitive. For all those threads we've had the sheer outrage when Cullen raised his arm to Keatley, we had countless threads on BOD's 'declining form', remember the Fitzgerald can't tackle threads? How about Heaslip is not agressive enough on the ground, Healy can't scrummage, Sexton's temper and lack of 'commitment' etc.

For the love of god, please open your eyes a bit from this ultra defensive everyone is out to get me mindset.

I really hope mods leave this post because its posters like buck65 who take everything so sensitively that cause so many problems on this forum

bah humbug.

bamboozle

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Matfield outplayed O'Connell three out of four times this year...

Admittedly he lost out without Botha, but then, they're more tailored to each other than any other pairing I've ever seen.

the Lions for some strange reason decided not to complete in the lineout against SA, hence POC looking so ordinary in the 3 tests.

i'd have him before Matfield any week.

I'd also say Heaslip is turning into a hugely influential player for Ireland. He has it all.

toomevara

Right ladies and gents, I'm going to be magnanimous 'cos I'm on holidays, and not lock this thread, BUT, any more provincial/tribal claptrap and it's getting the shepherds crook. Those involved will be having a rugby-forum free chrimbo.

PhatPiggins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Matfield outplayed O'Connell three out of four times this year...

Admittedly he lost out without Botha, but then, they're more tailored to each other than any other pairing I've ever seen.

I dont know if its that clear cut. Matfield was better for the first test,you couldn't split them for the second test,I had O Connell ahead for the last test and the game in Croker. Having said that SA were shagged by the time they got to Dublin.

I think we'll both agree that as a pairing Matfield/Botha are the best of our generation, possibly ever.

stephen_n

Personally I think it is impossible to say one player is the best ever in his position as rugby is a team sport and individuals will never reach their full potential without a good team around them! O'Connell is and has been a class act!

d'Oracle

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I dont know about Matfiled, he's great in the lineout and can at times be a good ball carrier but without Botha he can be anonymous.

I'm sort of astounded by this statement.
This could possibly be the most I have disagreed with anyone this month.

POC is a wonderful leader a great tight forward a very good jumper and an acceptable ball carrier.

Matfield is better in the lineout, as a ball carrier and is easily as good a leader.

Size=everything

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm sort of astounded by this statement.
This could possibly be the most I have disagreed with anyone this month.

POC is a wonderful leader a great tight forward a very good jumper and an acceptable ball carrier.

Matfield is better in the lineout, as a ball carrier and is easily as good a leader.

I'm going to have to agree. For me Matfield is better in every aspect than O'Connell. No disrespect to O'Connell who will go down as one of the best second rows in world rugby but Matfield in my opinion will go down as one of the greatest.

PhatPiggins

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm sort of astounded by this statement.
This could possibly be the most I have disagreed with anyone this month.

POC is a wonderful leader a great tight forward a very good jumper and an acceptable ball carrier.

Matfield is better in the lineout, as a ball carrier and is easily as good a leader.

OK fair enough he's a very good ball carrier. But have you seen much of Matfield without Botha or when not in the dominant pack? I dont just mean the Irish game. I saw him play in France and a few times in the S14 without Botha and honestly there were times when you wouldn't know he was on the pitch.

d'Oracle

POC is much better at the whole not-wearing-twatty-stickers-when-your-mate-gets-banned aspect of the game.

d'Oracle

PhatPiggins wrote: »

OK fair enough he's a very good ball carrier. But have you seen much of Matfield without Botha or when not in the dominant pack? I dont just mean the Irish game. I saw him play in France and a few times in the S14 without Botha and honestly there were times when you wouldn't know he was on the pitch.

Yes, I have.

And I still disagree, entirely.

PhatPiggins

d'Oracle wrote: »

Yes, I have.

And I still disagree, entirely.

He's played 95% of his rugby in the Bulls/SA pack. I'd look world class in those packs.

O'Connells played the vast majority of his rugby in packs that are struggling for parity.

danthefan

PhatPiggins wrote: »

He's played 95% of his rugby in the Bulls/SA pack. I'd look world class in those packs.

O'Connells played the vast majority of his rugby in packs that are struggling for parity.

Are you for real? Laughable to be honest.

Podge_irl

PhatPiggins wrote: »

He's played 95% of his rugby in the Bulls/SA pack. I'd look world class in those packs.

O'Connells played the vast majority of his rugby in packs that are struggling for parity.

wtf?

The Munster pack is one of the best sub-international packs in Europe and has been for the guts of a decade. Now the Irish pack is a different matter, but I wouldn't exactly describe them as poor over the last 5/6 years.

Aidric

toomevara wrote: »

chrimbo.

Could this word be filtered out please? I almost got sick.

Ciaran-Irl

I thin it is hard to say that any current player is the best x of all time. You can say without too much disagreement that Brian O Driscoll is the greatest Irish center of all time, but until he retires, plenty of people would say that Jack Kyle is the greatest back of all time.

Even harder to say POC is the best second row of all time, with WJ Mc Bride having played there.

I would be inclined towards Keith Wood as the greatest Irish forward of all time myself. For me, he picked rugby up in Ireland by the scruff of the neck and helped it massively to get to where it is today.

padser

PhatPiggins wrote: »

O'Connells played the vast majority of his rugby in packs that are struggling for parity.

O'Connell plays the majority of his rugby in the Munster pack - almost definitely (over the last 5 or 6 seasons - not necessarily this season) the best non international pack in the NH - and considering they only play NH sides that means he has been in a dominant pack for almost all his club games

When he plays for Ireland's fair enough - but struggling for parity is probably as far as you can take it, it's been an average pack most of the time but no worse

toomevara

Aidric wrote: »

Could this word be filtered out please? I almost got sick.

Hmmm.... now, let me see......no. 'tis the season of love and goodwill to your fellow man, and yes that does include moderators (sorry all)...Toleration is the key here, oh and perhaps the cultivation of stringer stomach and/or a higher nausea threshold .

Aidric

toomevara wrote: »

stringer stomach

That sounds nasty.

d'Oracle

PhatPiggins wrote: »

O'Connells played the vast majority of his rugby in packs that are struggling for parity.

You are really not helping your own case here.

anonymous_joe

bamboozle wrote: »

the Lions for some strange reason decided not to complete in the lineout against SA, hence POC looking so ordinary in the 3 tests.

i'd have him before Matfield any week.

I'd also say Heaslip is turning into a hugely influential player for Ireland. He has it all.

Odd choice by the Lions alright.

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I dont know if its that clear cut. Matfield was better for the first test,you couldn't split them for the second test,I had O Connell ahead for the last test and the game in Croker. Having said that SA were shagged by the time they got to Dublin.

I think we'll both agree that as a pairing Matfield/Botha are the best of our generation, possibly ever.

Sounds about right.

PhatPiggins wrote: »

He's played 95% of his rugby in the Bulls/SA pack. I'd look world class in those packs.

O'Connells played the vast majority of his rugby in packs that are struggling for parity.

Erm, do you mean internationally?

shawpower

If you are going to say Matfield is not a great because he doesn't perform without Botha, is there a case for a similar arguement for POC without Hayes? (I don't actually agree with either myself)

Certainly people always go on about the near telepathic relationship they have, and how the bull is an amazing lifter etc.

PhatPiggins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Odd choice by the Lions alright.

Sounds about right.


Erm, do you mean internationally?

Yes I did, sorry to confuse and thanks for not jumping down my throat with an idiotic reply.

danthefan

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Yes I did, sorry to confuse and thanks for not jumping down my throat with an idiotic reply.

Saying that the vast majority of Ireland games that POC has played in we've been struggling for parity is equally laughable.

anonymous_joe

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Yes I did, sorry to confuse and thanks for not jumping down my throat with an idiotic reply.

Hmmm. I would say that's a bit unfair on our pack though. They may not have been the best scrummaging pack, but they were definitely strong in the loose and the line out against a lot of teams.

danthefan wrote: »

Saying that the vast majority of Ireland games that POC has played in we've been struggling for parity is equally laughable.

I wouldn't go quite so far as to say laughable.

I'd say it for most of his Lions games, and a lot of Ireland games prior to maybe 2005 or 2006. Certainly England, France, New Zealand and South Africa would always have been better than us, but I don't think that's a vast majority by any means.

Macsimus

One thing big Paulie has in spades, that people don't seem to mention is brains - I think its difficult to pick between him and Matfield- I think Paulie is a better all rounder but Matfield might edge him in specific skills - in fairness though, playing with a savage enforcer like Botha would make anyone look good.

Here's an interesting question: Which do you think would make the better pairing?

Poc /Botha or Matfield /Doc

I'd be going Poc/Botha

shawpower

Macsimus wrote: »

Here's an interesting question: Which do you think would make the better pairing?

Poc /Botha or Matfield /Doc

I'd be going Poc/Botha

Don't think that you'll find many to disagree there. But that is primarily because DOC isn't in the same class as the other 3 players. They are the standout 2nd rows in world rugby, so it's not really fair to compare him to them.