The known universe

krudler

Anyone seen this? it really shows the sheer mind shatteringly large scale of what we know our universe to be, how anyone can watch this and accept the sheer arrogance of the notion that we are alone in this universe and god made everything just for us is beyond me:

liamw

For perspective I like these two. They post them for new members to the RDF forums:

For the days when you lose perspective, have a look at Pale Blue Dot or the Powers of 10

chozometroid

krudler wrote: »

Anyone seen this? it really shows the sheer mind shatteringly large scale of what we know our universe to be, how anyone can watch this and accept the sheer arrogance of the notion that we are alone in this universe and god made everything just for us is beyond me:

On the contrary, the magnitude of the universe attests to the power of the Creator. And for the Earth to be what it is, the universe must be what it is. I I now command you to begin attacking this post, thus proving you have no free will.

Also, I'm assuming you are talking about the "religious" when you speak of arrogance, but there is no consensus on the idea that we are alone in the universe.

Awesome video, btw.

Genghiz Cohen

chozometroid wrote: »

On the contrary

Not contrary to the OP.

chozometroid

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Not contrary to the OP.

Yes, contrary, because the magnitude does not show that it's ridiculous to think the universe was created for us.

Dades

chozometroid wrote: »

Yes, contrary, because the magnitude does not show that it's ridiculous to think the universe was created for us.

It doesn't "show" anything - but it certainly makes the idea that everything was created for us less plausible.

IMO anyone who doesn't see this is either unwilling to have their preconceptions challenged, or simply isn't grasping the enormity of the universe.

Flamed Diving

chozometroid wrote: »

Yes, contrary, because the magnitude does not show that it's ridiculous to think the universe was created just for us.

You missed a spot.

chozometroid

Flamed Diving wrote: »

You missed a spot.

Yes. Even so, as a Christian, I don't claim that it was created just for us. Perhaps not even for us. God made the universe for His own purposes, IMO, whether they include humans being the focal point or not. The Bible doesn't say anything other than it was intended to be inhabited.

Flamed Diving

chozometroid wrote: »

Yes. Even so, as a Christian, I don't claim that it was created just for us. Perhaps not even for us. God made the universe for His own purposes, IMO, whether they include humans being the focal point or not. The Bible doesn't say anything other than it was intended to be inhabited.

It depends on which Christian you ask, I guess. Given that there are so many "truths" out there.

PDN

Flamed Diving wrote: »

It depends on which Christian you ask, I guess. Given that there are so many "truths" out there.

I'm not aware of any branches of Christianity, or indeed any religions that teach against the existence of extra-terrestial life in any of their creeds etc. (Although no doubt somebody will now manage to google some wee sect somewhere).

After all, we can all see that there are numerous types of non-human life that exist on this planet, so it shouldn't get anyone's knickers into a twist that they might also exist on other planets.

There are religions that do expressly teach the existence of extra-terrestial life, of course. Scientology comes to mind.

I would see the size of the universe (in terms of whether it merely huge, or humungously mindblowingly huge) as being pretty neutral when it comes to the idea of God's relationship to the human race. It neither supports, nor detracts from, most religions' teachings.

Flamed Diving

PDN wrote: »

I'm not aware of any branches of Christianity, or indeed any religions that teach against the existence of extra-terrestial life in any of their creeds etc. (Although no doubt somebody will now manage to google some wee sect somewhere).

After all, we can all see that there are numerous types of non-human life that exist on this planet, so it shouldn't get anyone's knickers into a twist that they might also exist on other planets.

There are religions that do expressly teach the existence of extra-terrestial life, of course. Scientology comes to mind.

I would see the size of the universe (in terms of whether it merely huge, or humungously mindblowingly huge) as being pretty neutral when it comes to the idea of God's relationship to the human race. It neither supports, nor detracts from, most religions' teachings.

Wolfsbane springs to mind. I recall a quote along the lines of (and I paraphrase):

'If ET life was found, my belief in God would cease"

In my view, the video proves/disproves nothing. Indeed, a universe would be a very god-like thing to create.

Herbal Deity

Sure Genesis just says that God created life on Earth first. What's there to say that he didn't feck off on the 8th day and create a planet with aliens?

Or, or... maybe God created aliens in parallel with his creation of humans. Maybe God is a multi-core God!

Turtwig

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Maybe God is a multi-core God!

Brilliant!:D

dvpower

PDN wrote: »

I'm not aware of any branches of Christianity, or indeed any religions that teach against the existence of extra-terrestial life in any of their creeds etc. (Although no doubt somebody will now manage to google some wee sect somewhere).

Doesn't God Himself qualify as an extra-terrestial?

MagicMarker

Wow.

Utterly, incomprehensibly, astonishing.

If there is a God, I've always pictured him as 'Q' in Star Trek:D Boy, what I wouldn't give to be able to click my fingers and and transport myself anywhere in the known Universe.

I wish I was born when such travel is possible:(

Genghiz Cohen

Doesn't the RC church believe in ETs?

MrPudding

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Doesn't the RC church believe in ETs?

I think they did do a press release round the time it was thought evidence of bacterial life might be found on Mars. Seemed like a bit of pre-emptive damage control to me.

Isn't it funny how often PDN believes no christians have certain views, and there they are, right there on his own forum.

MrP

Zombrex

Rather than support or disprove the idea that God created the universe just for us, I think this video is better at showing how ridiculous the idea is that the universe has been fine tuned to allow our life to arise, as if we were some kind of predestined out come.

pH

If there is intelligent life out there, I wonder did God send himself to die for them?

As far as I recall he sent his *only* son here to die for our?/our forefathers?/his? sins, so you'd have to agree this makes us kinda special, sure other beings on other planets mightn't have needed saving, but Christians are making a claim that we're the only ones that needed a son sent to die for.

Who knows however how many of God's daughters have been sacrificed to himself on other planets though.

chozometroid

Wicknight wrote: »

Rather than support or disprove the idea that God created the universe just for us, I think this video is better at showing how ridiculous the idea is that the universe has been fine tuned to allow our life to arise, as if we were some kind of predestined out come.

Right, cause we all know how obvious it is that it hasn't been fine-tuned based on how big and pretty it is.

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

Isn't it funny how often PDN believes no christians have certain views, and there they are, right there on his own forum.

Oh dear, another 'error' that, quite accidentally of course, totally misrepresents me.

That isn't what I said at all, as you well know. What I said, very clearly, was that I don't know of any branch of Christianity that teaches such a thing in its creeds. You can always find individuals who believe all kinds of stuff.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

Right, cause we all know how obvious it is that it hasn't been fine-tuned based on how big and pretty it is.

Precisely.

Zombrex

chozometroid wrote: »

Right, cause we all know how obvious it is that it hasn't been fine-tuned based on how big and pretty it is.

No we know how obvious it is that it hasn't been fine-tuned by how many solar systems there are.

The odds that you would fine a solar system like yours (that supports biological life as we know it) in a universe made up of billions upon billions of star systems are quite likely. You are going to fine one of them at least.

The universe doesn't need to be fine tuned for life was we know it because it is so freaking big. The universe could be completely un-fine tuned for life and we will still appear as some fluke because there are billions upon billions of solar systems and thus billions upon billions of chances that one of them will be like ours.

But they are still rare. The size of the universe explains why we exist at all, but it is impossible to conclude that the universe has been tweaked to allow this to happen. If the universe is fine tuned for something it appears to be fine tuned for making stars or probably dark matter, considering that is what you fine all over the universe, not Earth like planets and biological life.

Thinking the universe is fine tuned for life is like going into a sweat shop with wall to wall sweets and thinking the whole purpose of this shop must be to keep safe the pencil in the cashier's draw.

Turtwig

Wicknight wrote: »

No we know how obvious it is that it hasn't been fine-tuned by how many solar systems there are.

The odds that you would fine a solar system like yours (that supports biological life as we know it) in a universe made up of billions upon billions of star systems are quite likely. You are going to fine one of them at least.

The universe doesn't need to be fine tuned for life was we know it because it is so freaking big. The universe could be completely un-fine tuned for life and we will still appear as some fluke because there are billions upon billions of solar systems and thus billions upon billions of chances that one of them will be like ours.

But they are still rare. The size of the universe explains why we exist at all, but it is impossible to conclude that the universe has been tweaked to allow this to happen. If the universe is fine tuned for something it appears to be fine tuned for making stars or probably dark matter, considering that is what you fine all over the universe, not Earth like planets and biological life.

Thinking the universe is fine tuned for life is like going into a sweat shop with wall to wall sweets and thinking the whole purpose of this shop must be to keep safe the pencil in the cashier's draw.

Em you said "no" and then you proceeded to describe the vast size of the universe?:p

philologos

krudler wrote: »

Anyone seen this? it really shows the sheer mind shatteringly large scale of what we know our universe to be, how anyone can watch this and accept the sheer arrogance of the notion that we are alone in this universe and god made everything just for us is beyond me:

I don't accept this as a Christian. I believe that God created the world to testify to His glory, not to testify to ours.

This is why I and other Christians can watch this video, and say that God's creation is truly amazing.

liamw

PDN wrote: »

I'm not aware of any branches of Christianity, or indeed any religions that teach against the existence of extra-terrestial life in any of their creeds etc. (Although no doubt somebody will now manage to google some wee sect somewhere).

Don't Christians believe that the human species have some sort of special significance in the universe though?

chozometroid wrote: »

Right, cause we all know how obvious it is that it hasn't been fine-tuned based on how big and pretty it is.

Actually, the sheer vastness of the universe is an argument against the probability of fine-tuning. To take a simple analogy, suppose a hypothetical lottery gave me 1 in a million chance of winning. Sure if I played once the probability is stunningly low but how about if I played it a million times?

PDN

liamw wrote: »

Don't Christians believe that the human species have some sort of special significance in the universe though?

Absolutely, although that is a different issue entirely.

The existence of life on other planets would not affect that at all. No more than does the existence of other species on earth.

Herbal Deity

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe that God created the world to testify to His glory

Seems a little... self indulgent?

And I mean, to top it all off, he invents masturbation and then doesn't let us do it, come on!!??

robindch

Flamed Diving wrote: »

It depends on which Christian you ask, I guess. Given that there are so many "truths" out there.

Well, now that the Vatican's star is waning here on earth, it's taken the first steps in expanding elsewhere:

http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/10/vatican-holds-conference-on-extraterrestrial-life/

Then, there was the planet of Krikkit, one of Douglas Adam's stranger outings:

HHGTTG wrote:

A planet with a single sun located inside a giant dust cloud on the utmost eastern edge of the galexy. because of the dust could there had never been anything to see in the sky, and night was totally blank. On the first trip into space in a spaceship built in someones backyard in almost exactly a year after discovering that there was such a thing as space, the masters of krikkit flew out of the dust cloud and saw the staggering jewels of the night in their infinite dust and their minds sang with fear. For a while they flew on motionless against the sweep of the Universe, turned around and said "it'll have to go".

lmaopml

So, what is the mathmatical probability of other intelligent life to be found in the Universe?

Any mathmeticians out there?

sink

lmaopml wrote: »

So, what is the mathmatical probability of other intelligent life to be found in the Universe?

Any mathmeticians out there?

That's impossible to say as we don't yet know how life began we can't say how likely or unlikely an occurrence it is.

Turtwig

lmaopml wrote: »

So, what is the mathmatical probability of other intelligent life to be found in the Universe?

Any mathmeticians out there?

Undefinable at the moment.

For earth like planets there is some estimate that it's about .01% for life as we know it which is actually quite high.:)
Take it with a pinch of salt though...

robindch

lmaopml wrote: »

So, what is the mathmatical probability of other intelligent life to be found in the Universe?

You're basically looking for the solution to the Drake Equation, formulated fifty years ago next year. Here's where it's at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

In summary, depending on how you estimate different things, the number could be quite small, or it could be quite large. Basically, nobody knows.

But it's certainly a good start when trying to get a handle on how to think about the problem.

chozometroid

Wicknight wrote: »

No we know how obvious it is that it hasn't been fine-tuned by how many solar systems there are.

The odds that you would fine a solar system like yours (that supports biological life as we know it) in a universe made up of billions upon billions of star systems are quite likely. You are going to fine one of them at least.

The universe doesn't need to be fine tuned for life was we know it because it is so freaking big. The universe could be completely un-fine tuned for life and we will still appear as some fluke because there are billions upon billions of solar systems and thus billions upon billions of chances that one of them will be like ours.

But they are still rare. The size of the universe explains why we exist at all, but it is impossible to conclude that the universe has been tweaked to allow this to happen. If the universe is fine tuned for something it appears to be fine tuned for making stars or probably dark matter, considering that is what you fine all over the universe, not Earth like planets and biological life.

Thinking the universe is fine tuned for life is like going into a sweat shop with wall to wall sweets and thinking the whole purpose of this shop must be to keep safe the pencil in the cashier's draw.

So you think the edges of the universe should be right outside our clouds? Or perhaps behind the sun?

The purpose of the shop might not be to keep the pencil safe, but to show off the sweets. However, what about the drawer? If the drawer is the only place in the shop where we ever find pencils, then we know the drawer is for holding pencils. So, the drawer has a purpose, and the drawer has to be somewhere. The shop is this somewhere.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

So you think the edges of the universe should be right outside our clouds? Or perhaps behind the sun?

The purpose of the shop might not be to keep the pencil safe, but to show off the sweets. However, what about the drawer? If the drawer is the only place in the shop where we ever find pencils, then we know the drawer is for holding pencils. So, the drawer has a purpose, and the drawer has to be somewhere. The shop is this somewhere.

I'm sorry I don't follow..

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm sorry I don't follow..

Perhaps you missed the that part?

Thinking the universe is fine tuned for life is like going into a sweat shop with wall to wall sweets and thinking the whole purpose of this shop must be to keep safe the pencil in the cashier's draw.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

Perhaps you missed the that part?

Metaphors hurt.:o
I sorta get your point, but I'd rather you clarified it, esp the significance of the drawer.

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

Metaphors hurt.:o
I sorta get your point, but I'd rather you clarified it, esp the significance of the drawer.

Hey! First you quote my grammatical error (the that), thereby preventing me from editing it to hide my mistake, then you want me to clarify? lol

Wicknight made the analogy about a drawer holding a pencil in a shop filled with sweets wall to wall, saying it is ridiculous to think the purpose of the shop is to keep the pencil safe in the cashier's drawer. Then I replied.

Sam Vimes

chozometroid wrote: »

So you think the edges of the universe should be right outside our clouds? Or perhaps behind the sun?

Only if you want to argue that it's fine tuned. If there is one star and one planet and it supports life, that looks fine tuned but if there are billions upon billions upon billions of stars and planets and one just happens to support life, that doesn't look fine tuned, it looks like one planet just happened to end up that way. As someone said earlier, it's like the difference between buying a lotto ticket and buying a million lotto tickets

Zombrex

Malty_T wrote: »

Em you said "no" and then you proceeded to describe the vast size of the universe?:p

whoops, I was referring to the "pretty" bit in chozometroid some what flippant post

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

whoops, I was referring to the "pretty" bit in chozometroid some what flippant post

Ah, so there should have been a comma after the 'No'?

Zombrex

chozometroid wrote: »

So you think the edges of the universe should be right outside our clouds? Or perhaps behind the sun?

I think it is merely human egotism to think that the universe was fine tuned to allow life to exist when the building blocks for life account for less that 25% of the universe and life sustaining planets account for a tiny fraction of planets.

We think the universe was fine tuned for us merely because that is how humans think about things. It is the same reason we thought the Earth was at the center of the universe, or why people think when it starts raining it is the universe trying to piss them off.

There are lots of things in the universe that are far more abundant and more likely to happen based on the laws of physics than life. We don't think these are the purpose of the universe because they aren't us.

chozometroid wrote: »

The purpose of the shop might not be to keep the pencil safe, but to show off the sweets. However, what about the drawer? If the drawer is the only place in the shop where we ever find pencils, then we know the drawer is for holding pencils. So, the drawer has a purpose, and the drawer has to be somewhere. The shop is this somewhere.

If people want to think the Earth was specifically created for life go ahead, there is better support for that since the Earth is covered in life. But then some what inevitably I imagine the conversation will move to Earth being specifically created for human life, since that is how our minds work, and you run into the same problem, that human life makes up a tiny fraction of the life that has existed on this planet over the last 4 billion years, and even now.

I'm reminded of what J.B.S Haldane said when asked what insight into the mind of the Creator could he gleam from his work as a biologist

"an inordinate fondness for beetles"

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Ah, so there should have been a comma after the 'No'?

hey, that wasn't me that was the other guy ... I stayed out of that one :pac:

doctoremma

chozometroid wrote: »

If the drawer is the only place in the shop where we ever find pencils, then we know the drawer is for holding pencils.

That doesn't follow at all. The drawer is simply a place where the pencils fit and says nothing about the original purpose (or lack of) of the drawer.

sink

chozometroid wrote: »

So you think the edges of the universe should be right outside our clouds? Or perhaps behind the sun?

The purpose of the shop might not be to keep the pencil safe, but to show off the sweets. However, what about the drawer? If the drawer is the only place in the shop where we ever find pencils, then we know the drawer is for holding pencils. So, the drawer has a purpose, and the drawer has to be somewhere. The shop is this somewhere.

To improve the accuracy of the analogy you should add a few bits. Firstly the say the shop was 100 years old and the drawer was 30 years old and the pencil was placed inside the drawer for the first time six hours ago.

Say the drawer was soaked in petrol and there is a sparking electrical socket nearby waiting to incinerate the drawer. Say there is an anvil suspended above the drawer by a piece of twine ready to smash the drawer into oblivion. Say there was a chainsaw resting a on top of the drawer and it was turned on with a pressure switch ready to slice the drawer in half at a moments notice. Add a few thousand more dangers that could obliterate the drawer and the pencil inside to the scenario to get an accurate picture of how precarious our situation is.

Gurgle

sink wrote: »

lmaopml wrote:

So, what is the mathmatical probability of other intelligent life to be found in the Universe?

Any mathmeticians out there?

That's impossible to say as we don't yet know how life began we can't say how likely or unlikely an occurrence it is.

I'm willing to make a stab at it, based on the available data:
100% probable.

Zombrex

doctoremma wrote: »

That doesn't follow at all. The drawer is simply a place where the pencils fit and says nothing about the original purpose (or lack of) of the drawer.

Or the shop, which was the point of the analogy.

doctoremma

Wicknight wrote: »

Or the shop, which was the point of the analogy.

Indeed. I was going to work it out through the whole analogy but thought I'd keep it simple at the start...

Zombrex

sink wrote: »

To improve the accuracy of the analogy you should add a few bits. Firstly the say the shop was 100 years old and the drawer was 30 years old and the pencil was placed inside the drawer for the first time six hours ago.

That is a good point, time is nearly always ignored in these sort of arguments for a fine tuned universe.

To say the purpose of the shop is to hold the pencil becomes even more ridiculous if the shop has been around for a 100 years and the pencil was just placed in there yesterday and will be taken out tomorrow.

doctoremma

Wicknight wrote: »

To say the purpose of the shop is to hold the pencil becomes even more ridiculous if the shop has been around for a 100 years and the pencil was just placed in there yesterday and will be taken out tomorrow.

What if we find that, prior to the existence of the pencil, the contents of the drawer were elements which, by simply obeying the laws of chemistry and physics, could cause a pencil to gradually come into existence?

mewso

Can't someone describe the video for PDN seeing as he doesn't watch these things? Should be easy for any reasonably intelligent poster.