Driving in the snow/ice

cormie

Hi,
If one has no other choice but to drive the country in these icy conditions, please share your knowledge of how to best prepare. My GPS sent me on some crazy off road route yesterday passing wind farms and everything up high along the back roads of Slieve Beg. Was pretty icy and I although I was going slow, it's hard to tell just how slow you need to go, or how fast is safe to go but I was in 2nd/3rd gear for the best part of it and even taking it easy I had a tiny slide once and the wheels spun for half a second going up a steep hill.

Now considering it can be fine one day, and like this the next, what's the best way to deal with such conditions? Are snow chains for snow and ice, or just snow? Do winter tyres sold here have the little spikes like they do in eastern European conditions and are these bad to drive in anything but ice?

Will definitely be avoiding the mountains next time, but I'd like to be prepared as best as possible for any conditions as I'll have no choice but to complete the journey, on a schedule too :cool:

Any feedback appreciated

macplaxton

cormie wrote: »

My GPS sent me on some crazy off road route yesterday passing wind farms and everything up high along the back roads of Slieve Beg.

Your GPS didn't send you anywhere, you chose to follow it's suggestion. You're in charge of the car, not the sat nav. In bad weather, stick to the main roads.

Take stuff for getting stuck, spade, blankets, flask, munchies, couple sacks (don't know if you still get those old jute ones) and a rope might get you out of trouble if you're stuck.

cormie wrote: »

I'll have no choice but to complete the journey, on a schedule too :cool:

Complete the journey, forget the schedule. Better to arrive late than not at all. If it's really bad, stay at home.

Caoimhín

Get into the highest gear possible, drop down gears to slow down, do not hit the breaks if you begin to skid.

Otherwise, take public transport or else sit beside the fire with a glass of good Burgundy..;)

cormie

Thanks for the replies, yeah, gear 2 and 3 were high for the conditions and speed Public transport certainly isn't an option and neither is staying at home. It was too late to detour by the time I hit the bad roads so just took it easy.

What are you suggesting I do with the jute sacks by the way?

What about tyres, prevention rather than avoidance

denhaagenite

.

Seweryn

cormie wrote: »

What about tyres, prevention rather than avoidance

You can fit winter tyres onto your wheels. They are a lot better when temperature drops below 5-7 degrees (not necessary icy or frozen conditions). They are made from a different blend of rubber and have special tread patterns with lamels, which grips a lot better into cold or icy road. In Europe almost every driver uses them and in Germany there is penalty for not using winter tyres during winter.

peasant

cormie wrote: »

Are snow chains for snow and ice, or just snow?

Snow chains really work best on the sort of snow we don't get here ...fresh, deep snow or deep compacted snow. They aren't particularly great on thin layers of ice. Marginally better than no chains, but only marginally so.
They do wear very fast when they are in direct contact with the tarmac and cheap snow chains have a tendency to split pretty quickly and then the rotating bits tear up your wheel arches, brake lines etc.

All in all ...not a great investment for these parts.

craichoe

Seweryn wrote: »

You can fit winter tyres onto your wheels. They are a lot better when temperature drops below 5-7 degrees (not necessary icy or frozen conditions). They are made from a different blend of rubber and have special tread patterns with lamels, which grips a lot better into cold or icy road. In Europe almost every driver uses them and in Germany there is penalty for not using winter tyres during winter.

Theres no penalty, just that if you have a crash on summers after it drops below 4 degrees your automatically in the wrong.

I picked up my set of Winter Tyres last week .. 285 inc fitting, Funda Montero 195/65/R15 ...

They do make a huge difference on the snow though.

SIX PACK

Best way to drive in black Ice/heavy frost is to stick to the Major roads where possible (because their salted) if you have to go onto Minor Roads reduce speed especially coming into corners or cross roads & if the back of the car does slide just relax dont panic dont hit the brakes hard & Bobs your Uncle ...

Seweryn

craichoe wrote: »

I picked up my set of Winter Tyres last week .. 285 inc fitting, Funda Montero 195/65/R15 ...

Sounds like a W124 size .

metrovelvet

Good questions.

I spun out last week on black ice. It was 10:30 am and I didnt think it was that cold. I nearly hit a pole then spun into the spin but there was no control of the wheel [or it felt like that] so I spun the other way to avoid the pole and then was about to crash straight into the wall of a bridge and I know the DONT BREAK rule but it was that or crash so I breaked and all was ok. I guess it worked because I was out of the ice patch?

stevenmu

The best thing you can do is to anticipate and plan. Obviously in terms of the overall journey plan ahead to do as much as possible on main roads. When actually driving, expect every bend/corner to be slippy and also expect the approach to them to be slippery as well. A lot of people suggest not using the brakes, but my preference is to use them very early and start braking gently well before you think you need to and use them in conjunction with gear/engine braking to slow down. That way you're not suddenly applying the brakes when you need them and finding they just make you slide, you can gradually apply more pressure as needed and if you do begin to lose traction you can ease off and then gradually apply again.

Another obvious thing that a lot of people don't seem to do is to leave plenty of space to cars/vehicles ahead and keep the gap big. Also watch out for cars pulling out of junctions, many people will think they can accelerate out to a gap in front of you as normal, but then they wheel spin and just crawl out in front, so when you see a car merging expect them to be at a standstill by the time you get to them.

corktina

plan ahead....use all the pedals as little as possible...do nothing sudden like steering or braking...if you skid, steer into it (ie if the rear breaks away to the right ,steer to the right..) highest gear gear you can manage and change down to slow. Get all your slowing down done before a bend NOT on it.

The one thing you cant plan for though is the moron coming the other way, so best plan is to stay off the road if at all possible.

samih

The corner stone of Finnish winter driving guide is: if the car begins to skid, clutch in and steer. Most of the cars naturally understeer. If the rear end slides need to countersteer.

The rationale with the clutch in is that any engine braking or power will, in case of front wheel drive cars make the car to understeer even more. With rwd the opposite is the truth. If you're really handy you can help the turn with some extra throttle but with summer tyres on ice this will most likely end up in disaster.

Slow around the corners and over the bridges. Don't worry about wheelspin especially on the fwd going straight lines up the hills etc. Need to use low gears and high revs going up hills with icy patches and gain momentum during the grippier bits. Keep your hand on the same position on wheel all the time so that you always know where the straight on position is. If you skid the wheel has to be pretty much straight on position or otherwise you'll shoot to a the wrong direction once the grip returns.

Seweryn, had loads of fun last winter on a S124 Merc in Wicklow. They are really great on snow as the weight distribution is pretty much 50:50 and even the 220 engine and auto had great oversteer potential :-)

Enjoy snow sensibly!

Senna

Had to drive home in the worst of it last night. Was doing fine till i came to a very long (1km steep hill), its begins just off a roundabout so very little time to built up a bit of speed. The choice i was faced with was second or third gear, as the hill get steeper at the top i didn't want to be in third and have to down change and loose momentum. So i stuck with second and about 200 meters from the top i really though i was stuck, wheels spinning, moving ever so slightly forward, thank god i kept moving and got to the top. But i wonder should i have floored it (not literally) in third at the beginning and hopped to keep the speed up till the top?

biggus

Senna wrote: »

so very little time to built up a bit of speed. The choice i was faced with was second or third gear, as the hill get steeper at the top i didn't want to be in third and have to down change and loose momentum. So i stuck with second and about 200 meters from the top i really though i was stuck, wheels spinning, moving ever so slightly forward, thank god i kept moving and got to the top. But i wonder should i have floored it (not literally) in third at the beginning and hopped to keep the speed up till the top?

Any Car Tyre has the most grip just before it locks or skids/spins. So staying in 2nd but easing off the accelerator would be better than flooring it.

Also Gentle steady braking is much more effective than abrupt jerky braking to avoid breaking tyre traction.

A few simple tips for driving with confidence on ice in Ireland.

If you think its icy Try a few simple tests to ascertain the level of grip at any point in your journey.

At a slow speed and with no traffic around ... brake hard enough too lock the wheels or make the ABS kick in. If its very icy you'll frighten yourself enough to make you really slow down. With more experience you can use this method to safely determine the level of grip at slightly higher speeds.

Get out and practice driving on ice and snow when you have spare time.

In a safe area find the limits of grip in braking and cornering of your car in those conditions.
This will teach you when it comes to ICE that Braking and Cornering are mutually exclusive.

Always try get your braking done in a straight line and when you have lost enough speed then the car will go around a corner.
In an emergency Even it it means slightly overshooting a roundabout or a corner get the brake released before you turn the wheel to avoid a skid. This is why you need to anticipate more and brake earlier on ICE.

langdang

Dunno bout steep hills, I'd avoid em if at all possible in icy weather, even if you get up you may have to come down in worse conditions!

My approach to ice is drive SMOOTH*, anticipate and leave distances far more than you usually would.

*As corktina said, use pedals as little (and as smoothly) as possible.
Even if you don't brake, coming off the accelerator sharply can lock up the driven wheels on ice.
For this reason, Samih's suggestion sounds good for very icy corners. Finnish icy conditions may be more extreme than we'd ever have to deal with tho!
Even changing gears can lose traction if it's bad out there, especially in very torquey diesels I'd imagine.

Have never used winter tyres, but have always been able to postpone or plan ahead to avoid driving in really bad icy conditions.
If you are in a position where that's not possible, you could get a spare set of (steel) wheels and winter tyres so you could throw them on for a few months a year.

One thing I'm not 100% on - I think Winter tyres refers to the compound only and not the style of tyre, some people think winter tyre refers to Mud&Snow tyres only.
I presume it's possible to get winter tyres in normal car style, ie a low temperature compund, but without the aggressive,noisey chunkiness of a M&S tyre?

Sofiztikated

Had a bit of a tip this morning.

Was on my way into work, just out of my drive, onto the estate road, which is a slight downhill and 90 bend.

I was down the hill, couldn't take the bend as wide as I would have liked due to cars being parked on the corner, instead of going around, it went straight, into one of those damned cars.

No damage to the Foci, but 206 that I went into, I hit the corner at the front passenger lamp, and caved in the panel, popped out the panel above the bumper and under the bonnet.

Fun. Absolutely nothing I could have done would have saved it, I was barely doing 5 mph when it started to slide, and momentum and gravity carried it into the Pug.

craichoe

Less braking and if necessary coast around corners, if the engine is pulling your forward you'll lose traction, use the brakes as little as possible.

Also give 4 times as much stopping distance and try to read the road up ahead.

One more thing is try to read the surrounding and how the road should look, if the snows really bad you could end up driving in over a wall or something, i.e. something you thought was an entrance.

langdang

I predict imminent carnage - sleeting here on icy roads, shops still full of families in from the country for shopping, give it an hour or two and people will start hitting untreated bads roads having being lulled into a false sense of security on treated city roads...

Sofiztikated

langdang wrote: »

I predict imminent carnage - sleeting here on icy roads, shops still full of families in from the country for shopping, give it an hour or two and people will start hitting untreated bads roads having being lulled into a false sense of security on treated city roads...

This. And add to the fact that County Councils don't work on a Sunday. Not a blip of grit has been seen on Cavan roads today.

W.B. Yeats

I reckon Donegal is the only county council that actively grit before issues happen
It seems to me that the rest of them grit reactively to snow or very bad frost only in the morning after the event.
Last Christmas there were crashes on the M7 on the 27th due to frost and no gritting of the roads
There were crashes 2 weeks back on the M7 again when it was ungritted

I was in Longford today and the main roads were fine, the local roads had a good 2 inches of compact snow, I was happy when I made it to the main road

Mc Love

Sofiztikated wrote: »

This. And add to the fact that County Councils don't work on a Sunday. Not a blip of grit has been seen on Cavan roads today.

Same around Limerick (Southern Ring Road) is icy as fook and not an inch of grit

ShadowHearth

well i drove to cork from mallow today in the morning, and did not had any troubles... And i do drive a RWD with LSD...

Just keep it in the pants, when you driving on icy roads, take your time. That would be the best advise.

and lads, dont start about chains, as it does look rediciuolass... We got -30 on roads back in lithuania, and i newer sow even one car with chains, and in ireland some people sow some icy road and start wondering about chains... that just makes me lought, sorry

Sofiztikated

Ice nothing, we've about 3 inches of snow!

And its been freezing all day. Apparently, they are in Cavan town now, throwing out a bit of grit, but nothing on any of the roads in or out of the town.

And now I'm stranded in work, car won't make it out of the carpark, I'm parked on a bit of a hill, with another car behind me, and noway to get around it.

Lovely.

ShadowHearth

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Ice nothing, we've about 3 inches of snow!

And its been freezing all day. Apparently, they are in Cavan town now, throwing out a bit of grit, but nothing on any of the roads in or out of the town.

And now I'm stranded in work, car won't make it out of the carpark, I'm parked on a bit of a hill, with another car behind me, and noway to get around it.

Lovely.

Owned, lol sorry, couldnt resist

i would love some snow here in cork to be honest... nothing like a white xmas... :P

Mc Love

Car park in work is like an ice rink at the moment! Its deadly

ShadowHearth

sparkysrovers wrote: »

Car park in work is like an ice rink at the moment! Its deadly

some diffing anyone? :rolleyes:

Mc Love

ShadowHearth wrote: »

some diffing anyone? :rolleyes:

Looks like there was some action earlier on, good few tyre marks and the like

teednab-el

samih wrote: »

Need to use low gears and high revs going up hills with icy patches and gain momentum during the grippier bits. !

I wouldnt agree with that. You need to get up to the highest gear possible with min revs before you get to hill and use enough momentum to carry you up. Otherwise if you were to do the approach you suggested, your wheels would start spinning half ways up the hill and then you are in trouble.

cormie

This has turned into a pretty informative thread

Does anyone know anywhere in South Dublin/North Wicklow that's a big open driving space you could go to practice dealing with sliding at high speed without the risk of going into another car/fence/curb etc