Celebrating the demise of cruel stag hunting

fairplay

How wonderful that the sickening cruel "sport" of stag hunting is about to face the chop. I sincerely hope that hare coursing and fox hunting follow it into the shameful pages of our criminal statute books. Defenders of recreational cruelty claim it's all just harmless fun, never once stopping to consider the suffering they inflict for their sick pleasure.

One of the biggest and most active coursing clubs is in...wait for it...Listowel, home of the jackasses who see fit shake the hand of a convicted sex offender as if he were...a sportsman.

mikom

And here was I thinking that it was just the fox hunters who arrive on high horses......

Mahatma coat

Ah but Venison is Tasty. and therse is something to be said for killin yer own dinner.

but no, lets turn our backs on millions(?) or years of evolution because it offends the sensibilities of some UrbanitePinkos

silverharp

Venison Yum! whats next a ban on recreational fishing?

As an aside I saw couple of student types doing their one hour lunchtime protest outside a fur shop off Grafton street. Why a fur shop and not a shoe shop that sells leather shoes? I'll acknowledge animal rights when they petition for them!

Cant say i agree with hunting foxes unless they kill/injure sheep and thats rare enough.
Hunting something you will eat however is pretty awesome I must say.

fairplay

Eating venison has nothing to do with carted stag hunting, which is about terrorising stags for fun and entertainment, and it has nothing to do with shooting.

Boyle243

One of the biggest and most active coursing clubs is in...wait for it...Listowel, home of the jackasses who see fit shake the hand of a convicted sex offender as if he were...a sportsman.[/QUOTE]

well done u just compared a coursing club with a sex offender and im pretty sure not everybody in Listowel shook that man's hand....

Andrew Flexing

Wow there are some ignorant people on these boards...for those who talk about venison and evolution...Mahatma Coat...you dont get the issue at hand obviously!

to Silverharp...there is a distinct difference between recreational fishing and vension. you dont get it either...

I welcome the ban and any future bans so those who feel the need to mistreat an animal in the name of fun and/or culinary treats, they can get their thrills elsewhere in a more humane manner befitting our long evolution that Mahatma Coat refers to....

spank_inferno

Stag hunting has been banned?

This can only be good news.

Cookie_Monster

Clearly not yet anyway, big hunt on yesterday, in the papers and on main IT site.

Presume the ban comes in in the new year.

I have no problem with hunting of animals in Ireland as long as its for
a) food
b) pest control

Doing it for sport is simply cruel and unnecessary.

Macha

Andrew Flexing wrote: »

Wow there are some ignorant people on these boards...for those who talk about venison and evolution...Mahatma Coat...you dont get the issue at hand obviously!

Please attack the post and not the poster.

Pineapple_Boi

great news, backward cave-dwelling culchies and their hunting.

nothing wrong with eating meat if it was grown in a sustainable way, slaughtered by competent professionals or robots and complient with all modern EU safety standards.

but going into the forest to kill a fox with a gun? i thought we grew out of that millions of years ago

CJhaughey

Pineapple_Boi wrote: »

great news, backward cave-dwelling culchies and their hunting.

nothing wrong with eating meat if it was grown in a sustainable way, slaughtered by competent professionals or robots and complient with all modern EU safety standards.

but going into the forest to kill a fox with a gun? i thought we grew out of that millions of years ago

Most foxes here don't inhabit forests they are more commonly found on grassland or on rough ground.

Nothing wrong with eating wild meat either it has to be said.

darrenon

CJhaughey wrote: »

Most foxes here don't inhabit forests they are more commonly found on grassland or on rough ground.

Nothing wrong with eating wild meat either it has to be said.

dont forget the urban fox
they seem more and more common:D

dresden8

Pineapple_Boi wrote: »

but going into the forest to kill a fox with a gun? i thought we grew out of that millions of years ago

Seriously, you do?

Nobrow

Boyle243 wrote: »

One of the biggest and most active coursing clubs is in...wait for it...Listowel, home of the jackasses who see fit shake the hand of a convicted sex offender as if he were...a sportsman.

well done u just compared a coursing club with a sex offender and im pretty sure not everybody in Listowel shook that man's hand....

I'm not sure what fairplay was getting at, but since you bring it up, any individual who is capable of looking at a creature that has been chased and hounded until its lungs bleed and it can no longer stand to defend itself from a pack of dogs and derive pleasure from it, is lacking in empathy (relative to the typical human who would have great difficulty witnessing such suffering).

Lack of empathy is a fundamental characteristic of the rapist, the serial killer and the like. Deriving pleasure from torturing animals is a common characteristic of the young would-be serial killer. The behaviour is even part of the famous "Macdonald Triad".

So you see, for a great many of us (or certainly for me, perhaps I shouldnt presume to speak for others), their shared inhumanity makes it quite easy to view a "hunter" or coarser or badger baiter with the same disgust with which we view the sex offender.

Let it be known however I have nothing against Listowel.

freewheeler

Nobrow wrote: »

I'm not sure what fairplay was getting at, but since you bring it up, any individual who is capable of looking at a creature that has been chased and hounded until its lungs bleed and it can no longer stand to defend itself from a pack of dogs and derive pleasure from it, is lacking in empathy (relative to the typical human who would have great difficulty witnessing such suffering).

Lack of empathy is a fundamental characteristic of the rapist, the serial killer and the like. Deriving pleasure from torturing animals is a common characteristic of the young would-be serial killer. The behaviour is even part of the famous "Macdonald Triad".

So you see, for a great many of us (or certainly for me, perhaps I shouldnt presume to speak for others), their shared inhumanity makes it quite easy to view a "hunter" or coarser or badger baiter with the same disgust with which we view the sex offender.

Let it be known however I have nothing against Listowel.

Life is cruel..nature is cruel..there are many predators in the wild who kill every day to survive,and while i accept that there may be some cruelty involved in some forms of hunting,comparing hunters and coursers to sex offenders is just plain ignorant. I dont include badger baiters or dog fighters as these practices are disgusting to any right thinking individual.

Macha

Pineapple_Boi wrote: »

great news, backward cave-dwelling culchies and their hunting.

[mod]That sort of language doesn't really help the debate along[/mod]

I think there's a big difference between hunting to eat or improve the herd and hunting for fun.

worded

silverharp wrote: »

Venison Yum! whats next a ban on recreational fishing?

As an aside I saw couple of student types doing their one hour lunchtime protest outside a fur shop off Grafton street. Why a fur shop and not a shoe shop that sells leather shoes? I'll acknowledge animal rights when they petition for them!

it can take twenty rabbits to make just one fur coat.
Its been proven that they are very slow at sewing and cant speed up no matter how many carrots are offered.

Trouser_Press

Mahatma coat wrote: »

UrbanitePinkos

Tally-Ho you overcooked Ruralite!!!

Mahatma coat

I'm glad I amused someone


I think it takes more than 20 Rabbits to make a coat, it took the Fur of 13 rabbits to make my Hat.

this thread is gettin a bit OT.

What are people Sh1ttini on about, AFAIK Deer hunting in Ireland is a solitary sport carried out mostly in the Wicklow mountains, anyone I've ever spoken to about it has a licence to hunt Deer and Does so for the Food and the pleasure it brings them to spend a day stalking their prey just as our ancestor did for milenia, however the modern hunter has the advantage that he can chose High powered rifle as his weapon as opposed to a big gang of mates with sticks, even then some people still enjoy to hunt with Crossbows.

so What is the OP suggesting??? cos I read it in the same bracket as calling for a ban on recreational fishing

Nobrow

Mahatma coat wrote: »

so What is the OP suggesting??? cos I read it in the same bracket as calling for a ban on recreational fishing

I don't understand the difference between recreational fishing and recreational burning of dogs with cigarette butts. They are both cruel and unnecessary and they both bring a weird pleasure to the person doing it. What makes one acceptable but not the other?

By all means fish for your supper, but not for the craic of tearing a living creatures flesh with a barb! I hooked my finger once while fishing for recreation as a child ... it was so horrific having my finger flesh tugged as we tried to get it out, I couldn't imagine what it would be like if it were piercing the roof of my mouth and I was being dragged around by it. Belief that fishing for fun is unacceptably cruel logically followed.

Mahatma coat

No, I'm not gonna play that game, this i down the same pointless route of why is alcohol legal and Heroin not, Fishing, hunting feckit even coarsing are part of our history and culture, hawking? ban that too?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr:mad:

djpbarry

Mahatma coat wrote: »

No, I'm not gonna play that game, this i down the same pointless route of why is alcohol legal and Heroin not, Fishing, hunting feckit even coarsing are part of our history and culture...

So if something is considered culturally significant, it may be deemed exempt from morals and ethics?

Mahatma coat

djpbarry wrote: »

So if something is considered culturally significant, it may be deemed exempt from morals and ethics?

these morals and ethics are quite a relativley new concept,and have only really been applied to the animal world after the bulk of the population forgot where its food came from.

You say 'culturally significant'; as if to dismiss it along the same lines as Druids clappin & leppin around in the buff at Newgrange, its more than that, we are carnivoresETAand ostensibly Omnivorous;) , historically we either hunted stuff to eat or raised stuff grown from captured and domesticated animals to eat, and even then Hunting has been what sustained people

Nobrow

Mahatma coat wrote: »

No, I'm not gonna play that game, this i down the same pointless route of why is alcohol legal and Heroin not, Fishing, hunting feckit even coarsing are part of our history and culture, hawking? ban that too?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr:mad:

Yes, of course, now you're getting it. Ban all forms of gratuitous torture of animals. Eat them if you must, but kill humanely and as necessary. Do not tear a creature to pieces and then toss off to the pub just for the fun of it.

And really, citing the historical imperative is pretty weak. As humans/society have evolved and become more civilised we have consciously abondoned all sorts of practices. Surely I don't need to cite examples?

old boy

Nobrow wrote: »

Yes, of course, now you're getting it. Ban all forms of gratuitous torture of animals. Eat them if you must, but kill humanely and as necessary. Do not tear a creature to pieces and then toss off to the pub just for the fun of it.

And really, citing the historical imperative is pretty weak. As humans/society have evolved and become more civilised we have consciously abondoned all sorts of practices. Surely I don't need to cite examples?

oh yeah, yes we did, murder, rape, robbery, gbh, come on op smell the morning coffee, you are just nit picking, choseing practises which you choose not agree with, ones which a small minority of the population also do not agree with, and are quite vocal in their opposition to.

Macha

old boy wrote: »

oh yeah, yes we did, murder, rape, robbery, gbh, come on op smell the morning coffee, you are just nit picking, choseing practises which you choose not agree with, ones which a small minority of the population also do not agree with, and are quite vocal in their opposition to.

Can you back up your claim that it is a "small minority of the population" that are opposed to stag hunting?

Mahatma coat

taconnol wrote: »

Can you back up your claim that it is a "small minority of the population" that are opposed to stag hunting?

I suppose you can show this to be untrue then???


my experience has shown that it is generally the 'usual suspects' the ones who oppose everything on principal without understanding what any of it really is, and that they are a small, Vocal, misguided, and illinformed bunch of reactionarys, most of them wouldn't have spent more than a month in the actual countryside over the course of their young lives.

now thats my opinion based on experience of these sorts of clowns.

brainwashed idiots incapable of examining the situation themselves and formulating their own thoughts.

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I suppose you can show this to be untrue then???

It is up to the person making the original claim to support it. It is not my job to prove the opposite.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

my experience has shown that it is generally the 'usual suspects' the ones who oppose everything on principal without understanding what any of it really is, and that they are a small, Vocal, misguided, and illinformed bunch of reactionarys, most of them wouldn't have spent more than a month in the actual countryside over the course of their young lives.

So many assumptions and prejudgments. Again, can you provide evidence of any of this other than anecdotal evidence?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

brainwashed idiots incapable of examining the situation themselves and formulating their own thoughts.

Are you applying this label to anyone who opposes stag hunting? In other words, anyone who doesn't happen to share your opinion on the matter?

Mahatma coat

taconnol wrote: »

It is up to the person making the original claim to support it. It is not my job to prove the opposite.

Yeah, Thats fine and all, but do you have anything backin up your asertions? or is it just a case of hesaidshesaid........

So many assumptions and prejudgments. Again, can you provide evidence of any of this other than anecdotal evidence?

Experience is the word I used.

Are you applying this label to anyone who opposes stag hunting? In other words, anyone who doesn't happen to share your opinion on the matter?

No, its not about opposition to it, its about a style of posting that often appears in these types of threads, the Ban everything I dont like its inhumane, 'Wont somebody think of the children'(but means it) style of posting. the flip side of whqt you accuse me of;) sorta

Evolute

Pineapple_Boi wrote: »

but going into the forest to kill a fox with a gun? i thought we grew out of that millions of years ago

Lol dont think we had guns millions of years ago

If your going to eat what you kill I honestly don't see a problem with hunting.
However fox hunting with hounds I detest and think is pointless.
Only if you are going to eat the animal should you hunt it

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Yeah, Thats fine and all, but do you have anything backin up your asertions? or is it just a case of hesaidshesaid........

As I have already stated, I am asking another poster to back up their claim. That is all.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Experience is the word I used.

Experience/anecdotes - same thing. I can tell you a story to back up pretty much anything.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

No, its not about opposition to it its about a style of posting that often appears in these types of threads, the Ban everything I dont like its inhumane, 'Wont somebody think of the children'(but means it) style of posting. the flip side of whqt you accuse me of;) sorta

I don't recall accusing you of anything.

Yet you have accused anyone who opposes stag hunting of being "brainwashed idiots" (even if they believe they have logical grounds for opposing it) and are just doing so because it's part of their general contrary world view? I could ask you to provide evidence for that as well but something tells me you would just answer my question with a question.

Evolute

Mahatma coat wrote: »

We are carnivores

Seriously now don't tell me you don't have veggies with your sunday dinner or all through the week.

We are omnivores because we eat both plants and animals

Mahatma coat

taconnol wrote: »

As I have already stated, I am asking another poster to back up their claim. That is all.

yeah, thats fine, but you are askin the OP to back their point, right,so you doubt them, all I am saying is, that, I as a casual observer am no more swayed by your argument and lack of supporting evidence than I am by the OP, have you got something I can refer to that gives your counterpoint more weight???

otherwise its just

Experience/anecdotes - same thing. I can tell you a story to back up pretty much anything.

I don't recall accusing you of anything.

Pardon me So, I misread your previous post.

Yet you have accused anyone who opposes stag hunting of being "brainwashed idiots" (even if they believe they have logical grounds for opposing it) and are just doing so because it's part of their general contrary world view? I could ask you to provide evidence for that as well but something tells me you would just answer my question with a question.

No, point missed, I am not saying everyone opposed to staghunting is a 'Brainwashed idiot' I'm saying that some of the posters in this thread are acting in a reactionary style without stopping to consider that there may be othe rpoints of view besides their 'self evident' righteousness

Mahatma coat

Evolute wrote: »

Seriously now don't tell me you don't have veggies with your sunday dinner or all through the week.

We are omnivores because we eat both plants and animals

well do ya count Pastry:D:D:D:D

not really a massive veg fan meself, cept the stuff I grow obviously

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

yeah, thats fine, but you are askin the OP to back their point, right,so you doubt them, all I am saying is, that, I as a casual observer am no more swayed by your argument and lack of supporting evidence than I am by the OP, have you got something I can refer to that gives your counterpoint more weight???

I don't have a counterpoint or counter argument. I have not claimed that those opposed to stag hunting are in a majority. See the difference?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

No, point missed, I am not saying everyone opposed to staghunting is a 'Brainwashed idiot' I'm saying that some of the posters in this thread are acting in a reactionary style without stopping to consider that there may be othe rpoints of view besides their 'self evident' righteousness

To be honest there is as much if not more "reactionary style" and "'self evident' righteousness" in your posts as anyone else's in this thread.

robtri

I am not up on how stag hunting is performed these days, I assumed hunting stag and deers was done with a gun or crossbow? am I correct in this?
or is it done with dogs??


if its with a gun or crossbow, i personally don't have much of an issue, the majoprity of the time the deer does not suffer any more than it does if it is brought to a slaughter house....

if its chased with dogs then I am against it...

djpbarry

Mahatma coat wrote: »

tou say 'culturaly significant; as if to dismiss it along the same lines as Druids cleppin around in the buff at newgrange, it more than that, we are carnivores, historically we either huntede stuff to eat or raised stuff grown from cptured and domesticted animals to eat, and even then Hunting has been what sustained people

I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with hunting for food, provided it is done in a humane manner. Stag hunting does not fall into that category.

Mahatma coat

taconnol wrote: »

I don't have a counterpoint or counter argument. I have not claimed that those opposed to stag hunting are in a majority. See the difference?

so what IS your point then?

To be honest there is as much if not more "reactionary style" and "'self evident' righteousness" in your posts as anyone else's in this thread.

balance is important



ETA

eh lads, lets nt let this one stray off inta Fox huntin and shootin Pidgeons/crows etc...

this is about Shootin and eatin Deer

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

so what IS your point then?

My, this is proving more complex than anticipated. Again, I have asked a poster to back up their claim. I can't really express it more simply than that.

And I must point out that you seem more concerned about this than the poster in question!

Mahatma coat wrote: »

balance is important

Indeed.

Mahatma coat

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with hunting for food, provided it is done in a humane manner. Stag hunting does not fall into that category.

Well then we agree in Principal :eek:

I therefore require a better definition of this 'Stag Hunting' concept.

Now I described earlier my knowledge of : Deer hunting in the Wicklow mountains - as recounted by someone who did it for Sport, a solitary venture, ocasionanlly including a sniffer dog or two, mostly on the bits round Powerscourt that aint national park or someones house.

so what is it that the OP wishes to ban???????

Vegeta

Mahatma coat wrote: »

this is about Shootin and eatin Deer

Well I know you point is specifically about the shooting of deer but that is not what the OP is talking about.

It is the hunting of a stag by a pack of hounds as followed by people on horses. Same as what people consider fox hunting to be.

Lads don't get bogged down in arguing about support for either side of this argument.

If 1000 people from a city were polled and 1000 people at an IFA convention were polled the answers would probably be very different and you'd then argue about the specifics and relevance of the quoted material.

Mahatma coat

if they kill and eat the Deer wahts the issue??

robtri

Mahatma coat wrote: »

if they kill and eat the Deer wahts the issue??

how to put this.... how you you rather die,

a) by a bullet, generally quick and virtually painless...
or
b) slowly, by have lumps of your flesh torn off

the same consideration should be given to other creatures as well......

Mahatma coat

how would you rather live?

Frolicin about in the forest
or
in split between a half acre paddock and a sleatted shed


Humane is subjective

planetX

Guys you've gone totally off the point. The OP is about stag-hunting, as practised by the Ward Union Hunt in the Dublin area. A semi-tame stag is carted and transported out to where the hunt is arranged, is released and chased by riders and a pack of dogs, to the point of exhaustion. If cornered alive it is then packed up and carted off. That is if it hasn't jumped onto a road and nearly killed motorists, gone into a school playground with children present, or being mangled in barbed wire, all of which have happened. It is the most pointless 'sport' in this country, and constant attempts by supporters to deflect the argument into fishing and eating meat are not going to stop the opposition to their barbarism. They can find another way to entertain themselves.

Morlar

planetX wrote: »

constant attempts by supporters to deflect the argument into fishing and eating meat are not going to stop the opposition to their barbarism.

I do not see it as barbaric and would not be opposed to it. Each to their own.

robtri

Mahatma coat wrote: »

how would you rather live?

Frolicin about in the forest
or
in split between a half acre paddock and a sleatted shed


Humane is subjective

this isn't about how it lives, this thread is about how it is hunted and killed

fairplay

Debates on the rights and wrongs of bloodsports always go the same way...when someone opposes recreational cruelty to animals the defenders always come back with all that stuff about tradition being sacrosanct, and "rural pursuits" having to be safeguarded. The two Fianna Fail TDs who have called for a Free Vote on the Staghunt ban cited the importance of preserving "rural pursuits".

I agree that killing an animal or a bird quickly for the purpose of providing food is very far removed from putting the creature through a lot of prolonged and totally unnecesary suffering for the sheer hell of it. That's why opinion polls on hunting/coursing almost invariably show that most Irish people are opposed to hounding animals to death or injury for sport...while not having the same objection to humane slaughter or using a gun to inflict instant death...whatever one's views might be on the wider issue of killing animals at all for any reason...that's for another seperate debate in my view.

But this "rural pursuit" thing...The Spring Show, the Ploughing Match, country fairs, tractor races, inter-county football or hurling matches are rural pursuits. As is shooting of game in the countryside.

But so is badger baiting (illegal I know but it still goes on), hare coursing, fox hunting, and stag hunting.

Can we not be against some rural pursuits and in favour of others?

Likewise, Dog fighting and dousing petrol over dogs or pet donkeys are urban pursuits that most people would find objectionable.

Tradition? If we are to preserve staghunting on "traditional" grounds, then why not bring back legal dog fighting, cock fighting, and badger baiting, or bear baiting (maybe not that one, we don't have bears)?

Or why not restore the grand old tradition of sending single mothers to religious concentration camps and encouraging the women who remain pure to dance at the crossroads (a few fields down from the nearest coursing field where, for some intriguing reason, the catholic clergy are present in big numbers!).

I had to laugh at the excuse given by the two FF TDs who support carted stag hunting...they mentioned that deer can cause a problem when the herds get too large and out of control!!!

How does chasing a deer for hours AND THEN RE-CAPTURING IT ALIVE AND RETURNING IT TO WHERE YOU FOUND IT HELP TO CONTROL DEER NUMBERS?

The case for staghunting is just so weak that even the best PR company on earth could hardly sell it...at least not to a rational, objective person who wasn't already involved in the activity.

Does a bvan on staghunting amount to a breach of civil liberties? Not unless the bans on those other "sports" I refer to were similarly unfair or draconian.

Personally, I dislike slaughterhouses...but stunning an animal and then killing it immediately is a darn sight more humane and acceptable in my view than terrorising and tormenting it for hours on end...

It's amazing to think that bankers, property developers, circuit judges, and other pillars of society are big into staghunting. You'd think people like that would be more responsible.

Evolute

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with hunting for food, provided it is done in a humane manner. Stag hunting does not fall into that category.

So wait if I see a stag and shoot it thats stag hunting. Can I ask if its dead quick how is it not humane?